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-   -   U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33710993)

ianch99 24-06-2022 23:40
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36126223)
I've watched all of the episodes, fantastic series.
Totally agree. I was blown away by how good the lead actors are.

Maggy 25-06-2022 10:43
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36126236)
I am afraid I am pro life. I know as a man I do not have say and I know my opinion will go down like a ton of bricks. I understand cases where there is risk of life and those cases of rape resulting in pregnancy so I am not totally heartless on this matter

In the UK they allow abortion up to 24 weeks a friend of my ex wife gave birth at 22 weeks and the child survived so how can that be right to literally kill a viable person?

Ands lets be honest here the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies that are aborted are down to convenience " I am not ready" or "I just do not want it". That pregnancy is alive the cells are alive in a very short time there is a heartbeat and the potential of that child is unknown and totally lost.

Plenty of people out there want children and can not have them if abortion was harder to get then A the parent could when gone to term find they love the child and B if not they can put them up for adoption.

End of the day if you do not want a child do not have unprotected sex there is no excuse and it is totally irresponsible from both the female and male who makes the choice to not bag up or take the pill

I am sorry not sorry that my opinion will make people angry with me, I have held this opinion all my life and has nothing to do with my faith before some say it is. Abortion is the killing of a potential person will all the possibilities taken away from them
I currently think the Abortion Act got matters right and in the case of rape there really should be no fault applied in particular.In fact at the end of the day I think it's really the woman's choice whether she puts her health and body at risk in the rape situation.If men don't want a partner aborting their child then as you say bag up or use the male contraceptive.

jfman 25-06-2022 11:23
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Bizarrely agreeing with Pierre here that a fundamental right (if it is at all) shouldn’t rely upon 9 judicial appointees skewing really hard at a 200 year old document and a right to privacy overturning the opinion of 9 judicial appointees 50 years earlier.

If a democracy wants to legalise abortion it should have a clear law that states the circumstances under which it is so enacted by it’s elected representatives only.

While there is a role the judiciary to interpret law, it’s scope, purpose and intent it’s simply preposterous to claim that the US constitution written before abortion was a safe medical procedure intended to legalise it.

Mick 25-06-2022 11:54
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36126245)
Bizarrely agreeing with Pierre here that a fundamental right (if it is at all) shouldn’t rely upon 9 judicial appointees skewing really hard at a 200 year old document and a right to privacy overturning the opinion of 9 judicial appointees 50 years earlier.

If a democracy wants to legalise abortion it should have a clear law that states the circumstances under which it is so enacted by it’s elected representatives only.

While there is a role the judiciary to interpret law, it’s scope, purpose and intent it’s simply preposterous to claim that the US constitution written before abortion was a safe medical procedure intended to legalise it.
Therein lies a hurdle. To fully legalise abortion in all 50 States, I’d say would need to have a Constitutional Amendment, Amendment 28. That way, no individual State can create any law banning it and no matter how many Supreme Court Justices, there are, it would be “Unconstitutional”, to rule any kind of ban, or release any prior rule that puts back at State level.

The hurdle as mentioned above, an Amendment would be almost impossible today. The Founding Fathers, or “Framers”, the men who wrote the Constitution, wanted the amendment process to be as difficult as possible. Their belief, was that a long and complicated amendment process would help create balance & stability in the United States.

The chart below highlights how difficult it would be today to create an Amendment.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1656150611

Difficult because America is too divided, you’d never get 3/4 States to agree with each other. You’d never get two thirds majority in both Houses of Congress.

TheDaddy 25-06-2022 18:41
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 36126189)
There ya go.....
Lawrence vs Texas will be the one they go for...

Hugh 25-06-2022 18:59
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme...-travel-costs/

Quote:
Large U.S. companies reacted Friday after the Supreme Court overruled Roe v. Wade, with a slew of corporations vowing to expand health benefits to cover employee travel expenses to obtain abortions.

In the wake of the high court ruling, Walt Disney on Friday said it would cover employee travel costs for "family planning" for employees who can't access care where they live, including "pregnancy-related decisions." Disney employs 195,000 people, including about 80,000 in Florida…

… After a draft of the Supreme Court decision upending the 50-year precedent was leaked in early May, companies including MasterCard, Paypal and Starbucks said they would help pay for employees who needed to travel to seek reproductive services.

After several states enacted restrictive reproductive health care laws, companies including Amazon, Apple, Citigroup, Microsoft and Salesforce said they would reimburse workers who get abortions in other states.

Damien 25-06-2022 20:09
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36126250)
Lawrence vs Texas will be the one they go for...
I would be surprised if they did any time soon. I think that while a couple of them would like to do so they must be aware of the damage it would cause if they suddenly started overturning loads of 'liberal' rights. The point is precedents are meant to be hard to overturn and the court is meant to be a slow process. Not to go gangbusters based on the political leanings of the judges at the time.

TheDaddy 25-06-2022 20:54
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36126252)
I would be surprised if they did any time soon. I think that while a couple of them would like to do so they must be aware of the damage it would cause if they suddenly started overturning loads of 'liberal' rights. The point is precedents are meant to be hard to overturn and the court is meant to be a slow process. Not to go gangbusters based on the political leanings of the judges at the time.
Lets hope someone has told them that

Dave42 25-06-2022 20:55
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
abortion all wrong but mass shootings no can never do anything stop that shocking what hypocrites

nomadking 25-06-2022 21:11
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
The Supreme Court is not meant to be there to give out new rights that didn't exist when the original Constitutional Right was introduced. That is for State or Federal legislation to do.

Mick 25-06-2022 22:36
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36126256)
The Supreme Court is not meant to be there to give out new rights that didn't exist when the original Constitutional Right was introduced. That is for State or Federal legislation to do.
Hmm, last part not strictly true, a caveat to this is the Supreme Court has the power to strike down laws that are not Constitutional. So Congress can write a new Federal law, but the Constitution is the bedrock to any such laws being legitimate and once this is taken to Scotus, usually when someone takes government to court, they can rule on them being Unconstitutional, once that happens, laws go out of effect.

Paul 26-06-2022 01:13
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 36126235)
It’s the ultimate hypocrisy that the same people who are in favour of people being able to have virtually unlimited weapons of death, are the same people imposing a law that prohibits women having a choice with childbirth. Whatever the circumstances.
They are truly twisted.
or .... the people opposing weapons of death [ownership] want to legalise killing unborn children. :erm:

There's always more than one way to look at things. ;)

Hugh 13-09-2022 18:26
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
https://wapo.st/3QKtNdo

Quote:
Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) on Tuesday will make public his plans to introduce a bill in the Senate that would ban abortions nationwide, one that is expected to restrict the procedure after 15 weeks of pregnancy, according to several antiabortion advocates with knowledge of internal discussions..

… The timing of Graham’s announcement is curious, two months after most Republicans justified the Supreme Court’s June decision to overturn Roe v. Wade by arguing that abortion rights should be left to states to decide.

Jaymoss 13-09-2022 18:56
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Have absolutely no problem with a ban after 15 weeks baring in mind medical reasons do not count as abortion

BenMcr 14-09-2022 10:28
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36134086)
medical reasons do not count as abortion
Yes, they do.

There is no medical difference between any type of abortion, irrespective of the reason for it.

Jaymoss 14-09-2022 10:32
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36134119)
Yes, they do.

There is no medical difference between any type of abortion, irrespective of the reason for it.
Not in respect of this law I guess I worded what I put badly

Hugh 14-09-2022 10:38
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36134119)
Yes, they do.

There is no medical difference between any type of abortion, irrespective of the reason for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36134120)
Not in respect of this law I guess I worded what I put badly
https://wapo.st/3U6QV8W

Quote:
Asked if his bill had exceptions for cases in which fetal abnormalities appear later in the pregnancy or if a child is stillborn, Graham said he did not know.

nomadking 14-09-2022 10:44
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
The problem with allowing exemptions, is that will magically increase to fit the number seeking abortions. All they have to say is that not having an abortion would be detrimental to the mothers mental health, and that is it. As with exemptions for claims of rape and incest, no proof required.
Eg UK law
Quote:
Prior to 1967, it was already established in law, by the 1938 Bourne decision, that an abortion was legal if the doctor was 'of the opinion on reasonable grounds and with adequate knowledge of the probable consequences' that continuing the pregnancy would 'make the woman a physical or mental wreck'. This was significant because it confirmed that the grounds for a lawful abortion extended not merely to saving the woman from death but also to considering her mental and physical wellbeing.
It ended up being abortion on demand.

Jaymoss 14-09-2022 10:47
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36134121)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ency-abortions

Quote:
Physicians must continue to offer abortions in cases of medical emergencies without exception, Joe Biden’s administration said on Monday, as it insisted federal law would overrule any total state bans on abortion.
Think the President trumps as does federal law over state

nomadking 14-09-2022 10:48
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36134121)
In the UK "fetal abnormalities", ended up including the easily treatable condition of cleft palate. If the baby is already dead, how can it count as abortion? The pregnancy has already ended.

Jaymoss 14-09-2022 10:50
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36134124)
In the UK "fetal abnormalities", ended up including the easily treatable condition of cleft palate. If the baby is already dead, how can it count as abortion? The pregnancy has already ended.
same with ectopic as it will never result is a child

BenMcr 14-09-2022 11:06
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36134124)
If the baby is already dead, how can it count as abortion? The pregnancy has already ended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36134125)
same with ectopic as it will never result is a child
That doesn't mean that treatment wouldn't include an abortion, unless you're trying to split the definition

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abortion

Quote:
the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus:

Jaymoss 14-09-2022 11:11
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36134127)
That doesn't mean that treatment wouldn't include an abortion, unless you're trying to split the definition

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abortion
Yet the British Pregnancy Advisory Service states "Abortion is when a pregnancy is ended so that it doesn't result in the birth of a child." An ectopic pregnancy never will result in a baby as a lot of medical emergencies would not also

It is all semantics anyway I just worded my post badly

nomadking 14-09-2022 11:17
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36134127)
That doesn't mean that treatment wouldn't include an abortion, unless you're trying to split the definition

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abortion
So that would include where babies are born alive, but a doctor cuts their spinal cord with scissors, and the body placed in a freezer?

BenMcr 14-09-2022 11:28
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36134132)
So that would include where babies are born alive, but a doctor cuts their spinal cord with scissors, and the body placed in a freezer?
No, it would not. That's a very right-wing US talking point of 'after-birth abortion' and it's not helpful to what is already an emotive subject.

Hugh 14-09-2022 11:35
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36134132)
So that would include where babies are born alive, but a doctor cuts their spinal cord with scissors, and the body placed in a freezer?
For those who don’t understand the reference…

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dr...gosnell-trial/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Gosnell

What nomadking didn’t mention is the the Doctor was prosecuted for these actions, and found guilty…

Quote:
In May 2013, Gosnell was convicted of first-degree murder in the deaths of three of the infants and involuntary manslaughter in the death of Karnamaya Mongar, an adult patient at the clinic following an abortion procedure. Gosnell was also convicted of 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion, and 211 counts of violating Pennsylvania's 24-hour informed consent law.

nomadking 14-09-2022 12:13
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36134137)
For those who don’t understand the reference…

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dr...gosnell-trial/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Gosnell

What nomadking didn’t mention is the the Doctor was prosecuted for these actions, and found guilty…
Of just 3 murders.
Caught by accident, with prior evidence ignored for years by the authorities. So how many other similar cases are out there?
He wasn't the only one involved. Several others that were involved, and they considered that there was a Constitutional Right to do it. Why else did they think it ok?
Quote:
Pearl Mabel Gosnell, Kermit's wife, was charged with abortion at 24 or more weeks, conspiracy and participating in a corrupt organization. She pleaded guilty to these charges on December 13, 2011. Pearl Gosnell was sentenced to 7 to 23 months in prison.
Less than a week per killing.
Quote:
Practice staff routinely delivered living babies in the third trimester, subsequently killing them (or ensuring their death).[60] As part of this, fetuses and babies had their demise "ensured" post-operatively by severing of the spinal cord with scissors, known by staff as "snipping". Most of these were deemed infeasible to prosecute because files and other evidence were not held, although the report stipulates they numbered in the "hundreds".

Hugh 14-09-2022 12:15
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
But they were illegal acts, so I am not sure of your point…

1andrew1 14-09-2022 17:35
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36134141)
Of just 3 murders.
Caught by accident, with prior evidence ignored for years by the authorities. So how many other similar cases are out there?
He wasn't the only one involved. Several others that were involved, and they considered that there was a Constitutional Right to do it. Why else did they think it ok?
Less than a week per killing.
Harold Shipman murdered 250 of his own patients but no one's suggesting we close down GP's surgeries because of this.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Harold-Shipman

nomadking 14-09-2022 17:37
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36134169)
Harold Shipman murdered 250 of his own patients but no one's suggesting we close down GP's surgeries because of this.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Harold-Shipman
Were others involved? No, so not relevant.

1andrew1 14-09-2022 17:42
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36134170)
Were others involved? No, so not relevant.
Why is the number of murderers involved important?

nomadking 14-09-2022 17:49
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36134143)
But they were illegal acts, so I am not sure of your point…
That's just it, only 3 murder charges.
Quote:
and over 200 lesser counts including infanticide and racketeering
And the others who took part, did so at gunpoint, or did they agree with it? They ALSO felt they weren't doing anything wrong or illegal. Why is that?

Chris 14-09-2022 17:54
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36134172)
That's just it, only 3 murder charges.

And the others who took part, did so at gunpoint, or did they agree with it? They ALSO felt they weren't doing anything wrong or illegal. Why is that?
Not for the first time I find myself wishing you’d just make an actual point instead of trying to play Rumpole of the sudding Bailey.

nomadking 14-09-2022 17:56
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36134171)
Why is the number of murderers involved important?
It's about whether it was the secret actions of one person, compared to the actions of several people, who all considered it ok.
The secret actions of one person, do not reflect wider than that. Having several people who took part, or were prepared to ignore things, DO reflect on the wider attitudes.
Shipman knew he was doing wrong. Gosnell and his staff DIDN'T think they were doing anything wrong. Doctors who had worked, might have gone and set up their own clinics, and operated in the same way.

BenMcr 14-09-2022 18:00
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
But what are you trying to argue?

If someone does illegal things, that's still illegal no matter if they thought what they were doing was legal.

Hugh 14-09-2022 19:01
Re: U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36134174)
It's about whether it was the secret actions of one person, compared to the actions of several people, who all considered it ok.
The secret actions of one person, do not reflect wider than that. Having several people who took part, or were prepared to ignore things, DO reflect on the wider attitudes.
Shipman knew he was doing wrong. Gosnell and his staff DIDN'T think they were doing anything wrong. Doctors who had worked, might have gone and set up their own clinics, and operated in the same way.
From my first link…

Quote:
The people who ran this sham medical practice included no doctors other than Gosnell himself, and not even a single nurse. Two of his employees had been to medical school, but neither of them were licensed physicians. They just pretended to be.
Doctors who worked with Shipman "might have gone and set up their own clinics, and operated in the same way"…

You might want to go back to defending the Russian actions in Ukraine and the Energy companies… ;)


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