Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

If the bad history isn't available how do so many know about it? of course because all the information is out there and not hard to find. My history curriculum in 1984 was China 1923 to 1949 and the British canal network I learnt most of my history because I read books including those with the bad bits such as Britain inventing concentration camps and the R.A.F using Indian villages to practise aerial bombing and a lot more besides.

If the history of other ethnic group's is to be taught then all of it must be taught such as the black and middle eastern people starting the slave trade, widow burning in India and the many massacres and genocides those groups carried out before they were colonised. That's not what modern liberals want they want to continue the evil imperialist white people narrative and their oppression and murder at the hands of said evil white people. How do we know that's the direction it will take simple because that's the direction it's been for the last couple of years.

Tearing down society while replacing it with nothing practical and capable of maintaining a society just woke homogeneous rubbish.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Thats one hell of a leap, would you please explain how you manage to draw that conclusion ?

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Sadly if one uses the terms that fit one's own world view you can miss some very relevant links on Google.
:erm:

---------- Post added at 08:20 ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 ----------

It's available if you want to find it..it's wanting to find it that's the relevant part.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

The rest of the post and the preceding argument is that the country will end up with Muslim majority.

The statement around take-up of faith in Muslim families and the linked website is to back up that claim.

However, unless you're singling out a specific religion for different treatment or restrictions, you either support parents teaching their religion to their children or you don't support it.

As the argument is that children learning Islam from their parents is a problem for the UK, then Sephiroth is arguing against all religious teaching of children.

---------- Post added at 09:13 ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 ----------

I am also aware and have unfortunately contributed to dragging this thread into yet another discussion specifically about Islam, which is unfortunate.

Islam is only a part of Black, Asian and minority history and the history of the UK, and any issues with the Muslim faith shouldn't override the wider points that the original letter raised to the Education Secretary.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

somebody's already done it!

https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...tion.%E2%80%9D

---------- Post added at 13:03 ---------- Previous post was at 13:02 ----------

90 years, we'll either be speaking Russian, Chinese or the globe will resemble a piece of burnt toast by then.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

You missed out C4 factcheck's conclusion:

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

These panic stories always point to the higher average birth rate amongst immigrant groups compared to indigenous, then assume that disparity continues indefinitely. However, as that Channel 4 piece notes, a demographic study in 2007 has already demonstrated that over time, the birth rate of immigrant populations falls to match the indigenous.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

And it does it as early as second generation

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Which ‘they’ aren’t. And if I might say so, to believe that ‘they’ are would be unhinged paranoia of the first water. Is this why you change all your posts to blue text?

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Are they 106 miles from Chicago, have a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and they're wearing sunglasses?



---------- Post added at 16:56 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------

Seph seems to be a staunch believer in Renaud Camus' "Great Replacement" theory (which is mildly amusing, as he has enormous antipathy to most things of French origin... ';) )

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

I didn’t, I linked to the whole article.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Strangely enough, actual real data disproves your proposition - birth rates for those of Bangladeshi and Pakistani ethnicity (those most likely to be the ones carrying out your "Great Replacement" fears), have stayed constant over the last ten+ years, at approximately less than 10% per annum of "White British" births.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=%2fp...07to20192.xlsx

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Imagine being the head of education in a country that encourages free speech, diversity, freedom from all manner of persecution, and believes everyone is equal.

Now imagine the headache of trying to fit the wishes of 18 different minority groups into teaching children everything . . . ethnic cultural history, religion, LBTGPQXY (or whatever), vegetarians, pacifists, global warming, etc etc . .

No wonder kids are bloody thick nowadays :rolleyes: :D

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

No wonder more and more kids are having mental health issue's a problem area that we are extremely deficient in dealing with in the UK.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Spot on, teach the kids things that will benefit them when they step into the world when they leave school, not all the other bollox as mentioned by Carth, especially the poxy LGBTXYZ rubbish.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

What I do not understand is that you clearly seem to support the UK invading & colonising countries in the past and us imposing our "culture" on those countries' peoples but have a problem when people from these countries bring their culture here.

What goes around, comes around ..

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

As has been previously pointed out, in most Christian Churches, we face East to pray….

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

You do have a point there. If only we could go back 500 years or so and change things eh.
Just think, many of the people now advocating change would still be living in mud huts somewhere, no education, no medicines, no amenities, and free from all racism, persecution and slavery . . . well apart from that which was already going on of course.

The good old US of A wouldn't be much of a super power either, you know, with those bows & arrows fired from horseback.

Yep, pity that our forefathers didn't have the 'insight' to see how wrong they were.

Of course the Romans (and others) aren't completely blameless either, coming over here and giving us straight roads, sewers, baths etc etc . . . the rotters.

Anyway, can't stay, I'm hungry and need to go poach one of the Kings deer and hope I don't get set upon by brigands . . . why is there never a policeman when you want one?

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

You regularly point out the "good" the British have done in their colonies which, implicitly, validates their presence there. If you disown our colonial past, it would be good to hear that from you.

So, to be clear, you have no problem with Muslim's coming here from our ex-colonies, just the followers of the extreme Wahabi sect?

---------- Post added at 11:29 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

I am not sure what history books you read but I'd try and get your money back.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

You're the one that mentioned the UK historically 'invading & colonising countries in the past' . .

I'm just pointing out how different it might be if we (and others) had kept to our own plot of land instead of running around invading and enslaving others.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

I think he was commenting on the quality of your rhetoric rather than affecting ignorance.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Yes, the 95% of those who lived in the Americas and were wiped out in a couple of generations by the diseases we imported were probably very grateful…

---------- Post added at 12:56 ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 ----------

No, we won’t - as has previously been pointed, at great length, this is impossible - the facts don’t back up your statement.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Your ignorance of history is extremely thorough.

The only reason we know anything about Classical Greek science and philosophy is because Arabic, Muslim scholars in the Byzantine empire preserved the texts while the inheritors of the western Roman Empire in Europe did not. These were rediscovered by Europeans from around the 13th century onwards and translated into Latin over the following 2-300 years. In the meantime the only way to learn any of it was to go and learn it directly from … Muslims.

What you perceive as unevolved Islam is in many ways an expression of pan-Arab nationalism that began to find its voice in the second half of the 20th century. Islamic countries have all had their high and low points, culturally speaking, just as supposedly Christian European ones have. You don’t have to go far back in history to see newsreel footage of Arab countries whose street scenes are shockingly cosmopolitan and secular compared to the way we tend to assume they look today.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Exactly right Hugh.

Of course eventually, even without intervention from European countries, they too would have got their heads around large scale farming/ranching, railways & bridges, electricity, cotton, oil wells and the internal combustion engine

. . . . . and gunpowder.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

They might. On the other hand, civilisations in Asia, comparable to those of South America prior to European contact, managed not to invent any of those things for 1,000s of years. It is at least as likely that had these people remained isolated, they would be the same now as they were 500 years ago.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Thanks Chris, sort of proves my point that if we hadn't gone charging about all over the world, many of the people complaining that we did it wouldn't even be here to complain about it . . . or possibly know we even existed :D

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

If both arguments are ultimately based on supposition, neither is more useful than the other.

However, I refute your claim that mine is based on supposition even as you admit that yours is. How extraordinary that you so readily admit to the essential weakness of your position.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

So the data I posted from the ONS about U.K. birth rates are only "opinion’?

OK, then…

You have put forward a proposition that there is a long-term plan by the Saudi Wahabists (a small minority of 5% of all Muslims) to take over our country in 90 years by out-breeding the Brits, but provided no evidence to back this up - I have provided data to show that all Muslims fertility rate in the U.K. has remained constant over the last 15 years or so.

---------- Post added at 13:57 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------

Or, if we hadn’t wiped out 95% of them, then took all their lands and resources, there might be more of them…

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

You keep repeating the same ridiculous proposition with literally no proof. This is not a good look ..

BTW, "Rotherham" has proved nothing, in the same way that paedophilic Catholics priests does not prove that all Catholics are paedophiles.

Here are some interesting historical notes (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_...United_Kingdom)

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

I think we can safely put to bed the statement 'there's no islamophobia in the Conservative Party and their supporters' now I guess. Some of the statements in this discussion would get you sooooo fired in the workplace!

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

The thing I've always said about the British Empire is that it was better than the alternatives, that might sound like excusing our past but if people knew what the Spanish, Germans and even Belgiums got up to in their colonies they'd understand the point.

There's also medicine, where Muslim doctors/scientists willingly shared their discoveries with other cultures, unlike the Chinese...

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

I will just leave the definition of islamophobia here;

You may consider you thoughts or opinions rational but can you also see that they can also be classified as islamophobic at the same time?

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

But that takes you nowhere. There is no "better" way of being invaded - if it wrong, there is no less wrong. This road leads to mitigation and validation.

---------- Post added at 16:31 ---------- Previous post was at 16:28 ----------

As we're dealing with definitions: rational

I see no reason or logic here, only supposition and conjecture.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Well, yes and no.

Unequivocally, we now see it as wrong. We believe in a rules-based world order which respects the right of nations to self determination; we promote economic and social development through trade and cultural exchange.

However, it is problematic to go too far down the road of applying modern understanding of the world on history. Our modern understanding can explain the reasons why things have changed but it doesn't necessarily help us understand the motives of the people who lived at the time. TheDaddy, for example, makes a perfectly valid point when he suggests the British empire might have been better than the alternatives. if you live in a 19th century Europe in which it is accepted, without question, that it is the duty of the white man to civilise the black man, or a 19th century Africa in which you are powerless to challenge that view or to resist it, the reality is that colonisation is going to happen, and thus it's a legitimate line of historical inquiry to ask whether one nation's colonial habits were better than another's.

None of this means we can't be critical, however it does us no good at all to pretend these circumstances didn't exist. To fail to understand history is to risk repeating it. 'Mitigation and validation' are things you can do with an understanding of history but they are not inevitable and should not be used to try to forbid legitimate lines of academic study.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Agreed but surely you can see the danger in starting to mitigate the colonising process. You run the risk of ending up with the position that we were the better choice of oppressor because we were "nicer". Of course there were countries who were worse than us in certain parts of the world. Belgium's record, for example, in the Congo was atrocious. Understanding of history should focus on what was wrong so we can prevent it repeating. It should not focus on who was the better invader.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Also agreed. However the problem with academia in that respect is that as you climb the academic ladder to your PhD and beyond you inevitably focus on narrower and narrower areas of study. With a PhD in particular you have to choose an area in which you can make an original contribution. So someone, somewhere, is going to end up asking questions which, taken in isolation, seem to be interested only in establishing who was the better invader. Their freedom to do that should be respected, and so should the results of their research. It is the responsibility of those engaged in the discipline as a whole to see that the end result isn't a distorted view of history and to challenge those who misuse research to push unsavoury modern political agendas.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Just to take us back to the original posted subject . . .

How do all you people know so much about the stuff you're posting?

Were you taught all of it during history lessons at school . . . or has much of that knowledge been acquired over the years since you left?

;)

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Yes, well put. Of course, anyone can & should be able to focus & deep dive into specific aspects of history but these treatise should never be used as a context to misrepresent a wider historical narrative. It is often the case that a niche perspective on a past event is conflated into a justification for a wider program of action.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Or it leads to putting yourself in the shoes of the indigenous population and deciding what was the better outcome for them. It was wrong but it happened and was always going to happen by someone and looking at what they did, better it was by us than them, that's not excusing what we did although I don't doubt it'll be looked at by some as exactly that

---------- Post added at 17:12 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

I could have saved myself posting that now! :tu:

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Degrees in the stuff mate, degrees ;)

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Well, it’s like most subjects - it’s easier to extend your knowledge of an area of knowledge if you’ve had a basic /introduction grounding in it…

---------- Post added at 19:50 ---------- Previous post was at 19:40 ----------

Show us your working - how do you arrive at the point of Muslims being in a majority in 90 years?

I did a quick excel spreadsheet using some basic assumptions (starting at 3.4 million Muslims in this country at this time, 5 members in each family (2 parents and 3 kids, which is the current U.K. Muslim fertility rate, increasing this to 4 children per couple every 30 years)) - in 3 generations of 30 years, assuming no one died (doubtful, since the current generation would be over 120), the Muslim population would be 36 million out of the 2110 U.K. forecast population of 97 million…

This, of course, is totally rubbish, because that actual ONS forecast is that by 2030 the U.K. Muslim fertility rate is 2.5 per family - this backs up the Pew findings that 2rd and 3rd generation Muslims in Europe have less children than the original immigrants.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Agree with you mate, this article from last summer backs up some of what you are saying, there's no way that there should be no-go areas here in the UK, utterly disgusting.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...white-men.html

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Light the blue touch paper with the right words and subject and CF waffles away, showing up all that's wrong with this Country....

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Good back in the day, but nobody listens to Motown stuff now mate :D

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Evidence of this design?

My calculations are extreme case calculations, which are not backed up by any current data or trends - in fact, it’s going the other way, as U.K. Muslim fertility rates are decreasing, not increasing.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Just open your eyes, Hugh.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

So that’s a "no", then…

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

For you, yes.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

There aren't any that I know of

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Probably, I don't visit Bolton, Blackburn etc but I remember the same hoo-ha in London for what amounted to a few stupid stickers on lamp posts, I never had a problem there and tbh wouldn't have been to perturbed if there had been a problem

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

That article shows that Saudi Arabia are big founders of Wahhabism, which we all knew, and that they are illiberal and trying to gain influence - it doesn’t provide a shred of support for your proposition that the Muslims will be out-breeding us and will take over our Parliament in 90 years…

---------- Post added at 09:27 ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 ----------

The Daily Mail writing an inflammatory anti-Muslim article - imagine my surprise and shock…

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

France has a higher %age Muslim population than we do, maybe you should be more concerned about them?? ;)

Dewsbury is just down the road from here and yes the religious/racial makeup is different to some surrounding towns and cities but I go there quite often and haven't been mugged, converted, kidnapped, shot, stabbed or come to any harm whatsoever so I'm sorry to say it but you're talking a load of rubbish.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Yes, I'd say it was. I regularly visit Bolton, Blackburn, Dewsbury and Bradford and have never been knowingly 'jumped' (not quite sure what it is, mind).

I also visit Didsbury occasionally, but it's a bit posh for me ;)

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

I kind of get what you are saying in that you need to define Islam to be anti-islamic or islamophobic. Not liking Islam without fully understanding what it is, is simple prejudice. However, by understanding more about Islam and then saying things like Islam is not compatible with British culture is surely defining Islam and would therefore I guess fall in to your definition of anti-Islamism

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

So the mail article is wrong and it's just made up? Just because you haven't experienced any trouble while there doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

How come the violent crime figures for those areas is high, compare to their respective counties.


I remember a documentary from many years ago, where Ann Cryer went around Keighley talking to white people. They showed many accounts of girls being harassed when walking down the streets. They also interviewed a group of old people who had been "violently" forced out of sitting in one park, because of claims by a certain group that is was "Our area". They showed the elderly sitting in another park instead, and actually showed stones being thrown at them to force them out of that one. Of course in the documentary(possibly by Ann Cryer herself or David Aaronovitch) it was passed off as "youthful exuberance". Believe it or not, that was the term used. No way would that have been used in reference if the "races" were the other way around.


Not the same documentary:-
Link

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Have you discussed this matter with any of your Muslim friends or neighbours, to see what they think about it?

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

So … to summarise … your close Muslim friend told you you were talking bolleaux, while those who know you less well were too polite to say so.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

I have discussed your theory with them - individually, and as couples/groups, they thought it was a strange concept; their take on it was that one group of Muslims (Wahhabism) trying to coerce/convince/deceive all the other groups of Muslims to have lots of children and make them follow a ruling to take over a country would be like the Roman Catholics doing the same in the U.K. with all the Christians (and asked how likely did I think that was?).

They also pointed out their (grown-up) kids were having smaller families (2 or 3 children), so that part of the proposition didn’t seem to hold water, either.

My daughter works at a University, and has quite a few Muslim friends/colleagues if the same ages as her (34), and I asked her to chat with them about the "Great Replacement" theory - her feedback was they thought it was a crazy theory, and they believed their generation were assimilating more than their parents did (while still being proud of their heritage & religion), and their intentions were only to have a couple of kids.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Well a nice side effect of this discussion is that I revisited A Man Like Mobeen on iPlayer this afternoon. Series 1, episode 4 (linkhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05pgnt0) was good on some of the discussions here

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

I'm worried about you Seph, normally you're pretty open minded and reasonable (for a pro-brexit, a Conservative and a Francophobe ;)) but in this instance you seem to have willingly fallen hook line and sinker for the agenda of a right leaning newspaper that wrote an article that doesn't seem to be based on anything other than speculation, hearsay, opinion and (unfounded?) fear and I'm surprised and disappointed in you because I thought you were better than that.

If a left leaning newspaper wrote an article (note I don't say reported because that implies 'news' which the article in the Daily Mail obviously wasn't) where someone mentioned Wokingham was planning to demolish all houses except detached with a minimum of 5 bedrooms and introduce a minimum income to qualify for residence while at the same time ban any religions other than 'white' religions, most of us would laugh at it for what it was. The sad thing is some of the target audience of the paper would believe every word of it and for evermore keep trotting it out as fact.

I think your 90 year prediction will turn out as woefully wrong as Enoch Powell's 15 or 20 years and Old Boys 10 years.

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

The only remaining solutions are that Seph is wrong or much more likely that the Muslims are lying to you and your daughter :)

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Re: Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory
 

Strange - I thought Ed Husain was British, having been born and brought up in London…

You may be interested in an article he wrote a couple years ago.

https://institute.global/policy/reli...opolitics-2017