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OLD BOY 05-11-2021 14:19
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100186)
The correct decision is he be prosecuted instead of being allowed to resign in disgrace and trouser an MP pension at the cost of the public purse.

The House of Lords don’t make me laugh - remind me who paid for Boris’ last holiday?
I have no problem with prosecuting wrongdoing, and I have not suggested to the contrary in anything I have said.

As for who hears the appeals, I have made two suggestions. There are others that would be perfectly justifiable. I’ve had worse problems to deal with in my time.

The important thing is that the body hearing appeals must be independent of the disciplinary investigation and decision, and it needs to be a speedy process.

jfman 05-11-2021 14:19
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100189)
I have no problem with prosecuting wrongdoing, and I have not suggested to the contrary in anything I have said.

As for who hears the appeals, I have made two suggestions. There are others that would be perfectly justifiable. I’ve had worse problems to deal with in my time.

The important thing is that the body hearing appeals must be independent of the disciplinary investigation and decision, and it needs to be a speedy process.
The most important thing is surely that we weed out corruption among MPs?

OLD BOY 05-11-2021 14:23
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100190)
The most important thing is surely that we weed out corruption among MPs?
Good luck with that one. I look forward to receiving your (workable) proposals in due course.

Sephiroth 05-11-2021 14:32
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36100170)
How thoroughly depressing.

The next couple of years are going to be interesting now. The Torygraph rarely holds back when it has a chance to put the boot into Boris and this week the Wail has been at it too. In part this can be seen as them feeling safe enough to be roundly critical as Labour still has a mountain to climb before it looks like a credible opposition, let alone an alternative government. But once a pattern has set in, who knows? The rearing of that word “sleaze” ought to be ringing alarm bells all around Tory high command because it is in no small measure responsible for the party’s demise in 1997 despite the economy being in pretty good shape. They looked warm out and corrupt; Blair looked fresh, trustworthy and competent.

I am not a big fan of leftist politics and I would very much like to see the Conservatives get their house in order. I wonder whether many inside the parliamentary party will begin to think that means removing Boris before there’s another election.
Well said.

jfman 05-11-2021 14:33
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100192)
Good luck with that one. I look forward to receiving your (workable) proposals in due course.
Paterson out I think the current process is reasonable enough so long as Number 10 and Tory party keep their grubby paws off it.

Russ 05-11-2021 14:47
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36100168)

If you cannot see this then either you are not paying attention or you agree with the direction they are taking this country.
Nail hit on head, right in the middle of the middle.

Mr K 05-11-2021 18:18
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36100170)
I am not a big fan of leftist politics and I would very much like to see the Conservatives get their house in order. I wonder whether many inside the parliamentary party will begin to think that means removing Boris before there’s another election.
And which towering talent would you replace him with? Matt Hancock? Gavin Williamson ? Even the popular Liz Truss started out as a Lib Dem and a republican - not typical Tory fodder.

Itshim 05-11-2021 18:33
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36100228)
And which towering talent would you replace him with? Matt Hancock? Gavin Williamson ? Even the popular Liz Truss started out as a Lib Dem and a republican - not typical Tory fodder.
One is as bad as another. All work to a puppet masters tune . Just pick which one you want! Just remember that the majority never get the government . Do not recall when any government had the support of majority of the country . Ie number of people voting for it is at least 51% of the population as a whole. Learn to work with it and stop moaning:dozey:

1andrew1 05-11-2021 19:29
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36100228)
And which towering talent would you replace him with? Matt Hancock? Gavin Williamson ? Even the popular Liz Truss started out as a Lib Dem and a republican - not typical Tory fodder.
The top five most popular Conservative politicians per this YouGov poll are:
1. Rishi Sunak
2. Boris Johnson
3. Theresa May
4. Ruth Davidson
6. Sajid Javid
https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/politic...oliticians/all

This would suggest an Asian politician as PM if Johnson is deposed. Another first from the Conservative Party.

Pierre 05-11-2021 21:38
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36100168)
If you cannot see this then either you are not paying attention or you agree with the direction they are taking this country.
The nail may well have been hit on the head. The tragedy is that after all the sleaze, all the corruption, all the cronyism, they’re still the preferred option versus the alternative. That’s the real shame.

OLD BOY 05-11-2021 23:22
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100197)
Paterson out I think the current process is reasonable enough so long as Number 10 and Tory party keep their grubby paws off it.
Trial by social media. How comforting.

1andrew1 05-11-2021 23:30
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100250)
Trial by social media. How comforting.
Paterson sentenced himself when he said he would “do it again tomorrow”.

OLD BOY 06-11-2021 03:02
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100251)
Paterson sentenced himself when he said he would “do it again tomorrow”.
All of which points to the fact that there is no right of appeal. Are you really happy with that?

Whether or not he’s guilty as charged is a separate issue.

Sephiroth 06-11-2021 09:25
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100261)
All of which points to the fact that there is no right of appeal. Are you really happy with that?

Whether or not he’s guilty as charged is a separate issue.
There's no defence for the stunt the government tried to pull.
They are indeed separate issues but the Guvmin decided to bring the two together with the inevitable results in terms of public disapproval.

Hugh 06-11-2021 09:48
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100250)
Trial by social media. How comforting.
No, Trial by a previously agreed process that didn’t appear to have issues until now, when the Government tried to replace the previously agreed process with one that they could control.

I would recommend reading pages 35-48 of the Standards Committee Report, which focus on Paterson’s arguments relating to the process of investigation and adjudication.

https://committees.parliament.uk/pub...79907/default/

papa smurf 06-11-2021 09:57
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
All rise for judge Skippy and the court of Kangaroo justice.

Hugh 06-11-2021 10:01
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36100271)
All rise for judge Skippy and the court of Kangaroo justice.
No need to worry about bias - Rees-Mogg & Johnson have backed off from the Leadsom Amendment, which wanted to set up a Select Committee with an inbuilt Conservative majority…

Quote:
That the Committee consist of nine Members;

(c) That Mr John Whittingdale be Chair of the Committee and be given a casting vote in the event of a tie;

(d) That the Committee shall consist of eight other backbench members; to be nominated by parties in the proportion of four Conservative, three Labour and one SNP;

jfman 06-11-2021 10:24
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100250)
Trial by social media. How comforting.
I’m not sure the independent standards commissioner is on Twitter.

Dave42 06-11-2021 22:26
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100261)
All of which points to the fact that there is no right of appeal. Are you really happy with that?

Whether or not he’s guilty as charged is a separate issue.
and you would not say that if it wasn't a tory that got caught you really need to take the tory rose tinted glasses off OB

---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:16 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36100267)
No, Trial by a previously agreed process that didn’t appear to have issues until now, when the Government tried to replace the previously agreed process with one that they could control.

I would recommend reading pages 35-48 of the Standards Committee Report, which focus on Paterson’s arguments relating to the process of investigation and adjudication.

https://committees.parliament.uk/pub...79907/default/
:clap: :clap:

Paul 06-11-2021 23:23
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100274)
I’m not sure the independent standards commissioner is on Twitter.
As best I can tell, she isnt.

TheDaddy 07-11-2021 00:35
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Peter Bottomly says we need to pay MPs more to avoid this kind of thing, they're struggling to get by on, well loads more than most and if we want them to not be thieving, corrupt, *******s then we have to pay them more, who'd have thought their corruption and greed would lead to them getting a pay rise well anyone who paid attention to the expenses scandal really

In other news Owen Patterson getting a peerage has been blocked, good, if he's rewarded with anything it should be a jail sentence not a cushy job for life

---------- Post added at 00:35 ---------- Previous post was at 00:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100163)
Newer Tory MPs furious at No 10 order to back Owen Paterson

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-owen-paterson

At least we can put to bed the notion that this didn’t come from the top.

---------- Post added at 13:35 ---------- Previous post was at 13:34 ----------



The irony.
Worse than ordered, told them cash for services in their area would be cut if they didn't comply

In other news bozo and his junta have been voted our most corrupt government ever, even higher than Tony blood on his hands Blair

jfman 07-11-2021 00:52
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
While I broadly agree with you I do - genuinely - think that paying MPs more than 82 grand, tightening up what can legitimately be claimed as an expense and the rules on “second jobs” would be better for democracy. (I also made this point in another thread recently so I’m not being opportunistic with it).

Someone getting paid 100k for a directorship 2 days a month and 82k as an MP 365 days a year cannot be anything but utterly conflicted.

TheDaddy 07-11-2021 01:20
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100328)
While I broadly agree with you I do - genuinely - think that paying MPs more than 82 grand, tightening up what can legitimately be claimed as an expense and the rules on “second jobs” would be better for democracy. (I also made this point in another thread recently so I’m not being opportunistic with it).

Someone getting paid 100k for a directorship 2 days a month and 82k as an MP 365 days a year cannot be anything but utterly conflicted.
It's not just 82k per year though, when you add it all up its hundreds of k per year but let's be honest it wouldn't matter what they're paid, it still wouldn't be enough

jfman 07-11-2021 01:25
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36100329)
It's not just 82k per year though, when you add it all up its hundreds of k per year but let's be honest it wouldn't matter what they're paid, it still wouldn't be enough
I agree for the corruptible yes, it’d never be enough. There’s also the likelihood that lobbying would simply become indirect via family members rather than bribing MPs to corrupt democracy in disguise.

It’d turn out their partners would have surprising expertise in many fields I’m sure.

On a blue sky sunny day I definitely think an MP - restricted in taking second jobs and “expenses” is worth in excess of 200k. As long as they have focus on who they are serving for their primary - and ideally sole - income.

Russ 07-11-2021 06:15
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36100329)
It's not just 82k per year though, when you add it all up its hundreds of k per year but let's be honest it wouldn't matter what they're paid, it still wouldn't be enough
Especially when 12 years ago one particular bumbling blond idiot current MP described his then-salary of £250k as “chicken feed”.

Maggy 07-11-2021 09:56
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36100329)
It's not just 82k per year though, when you add it all up its hundreds of k per year but let's be honest it wouldn't matter what they're paid, it still wouldn't be enough
:tu:

1andrew1 07-11-2021 10:02
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100012)
Why stay when you can make much more in the private sector ;)

Would be interesting to see if the fact he is no longer an MP means his private sector income reduces. After all, he will have all this extra time it really shouldn’t if he was genuinely being paid for his skills or insight.
Well, he's quit his lobbying jobs and as Seph says, is toxic, I don't think he'll be earning much now. Plus he's 65 so may focus on his retirement.

I guess due diligence needs to be undertaken before considering making him a Lord. Locations and sizes of overseas holiday homes, yachts, etc. ;)

Paul 07-11-2021 16:39
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
One thing I have never quite agreed with is any MP having a second Job.

As an elected MP, your job should be serving your constituents, full time.
If you cant do that, then you should let someone else [who can] do the job.

Dave42 07-11-2021 16:51
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36100361)
One thing I have never quite agreed with is any MP having a second Job.

As an elected MP, your job should be serving your constituents, full time.
If you cant do that, then you should let someone else [who can] do the job.
exactly should be banned from any other job when a MP that is your job to serve people that voted you in

1andrew1 08-11-2021 00:08
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Monday's debate should be interesting! Johnson's not known for his apologies!
Quote:
Sir Keir Starmer demands Boris Johnson apologise to the nation over Owen Paterson sleaze row ahead of emergency debate

Sir Keir has also called for action against disgraced MP Rob Roberts, who was readmitted to the Conservative Party despite breaking parliament's sexual misconduct policy.

Ahead of an emergency Commons debate on standards at Westminster, Sir Keir said Mr Johnson needed to act to clean up politics.

It comes as former Tory deputy PM Michael Heseltine told Sky News he cannot "disagree" with Sir John Major's assessment that recent behaviour of Mr Johnson's government could be considered "politically corrupt"

Sir Keir has also called for action against disgraced MP Rob Roberts, who was readmitted to the Conservative Party despite breaking parliament's sexual misconduct policy...

Sir Keir also demanded a "full, transparent investigation" into how Randox - one of the firms that paid Mr Paterson - came to win COVID-19 testing contracts.

He said it was "vital the public has confidence that Owen Paterson's paid advocacy did not influence these decisions".

The Liberal Democrats, who secured the emergency debate, have called for an independent statutory public inquiry into sleaze and corruption allegations.
https://news.sky.com/story/sir-keir-...ebate-12463673

---------- Post added at 00:08 ---------- Previous post was at 00:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36100361)
One thing I have never quite agreed with is any MP having a second Job.

As an elected MP, your job should be serving your constituents, full time.
If you cant do that, then you should let someone else [who can] do the job.
Totally agree.

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

The best way for an MP to avoid conflicts of interests is by having no other jobs.

BenMcr 08-11-2021 08:57
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100386)
The best way for an MP to avoid conflicts of interests is by having no other jobs.
Currently there are calls to ban the type of secondary work that Owen Paterson was doing i.e. paid advocacy and consultancy

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...eaze-clampdown

Quote:
MPs could be banned from having consultancy jobs like Owen Paterson’s under plans for a clampdown on sleaze being considered by the Commons standards committee.

The prospect of tightened restrictions on MPs’ second jobs is to be decided within weeks and could affect more than 30 parliamentarians earning between £180,000 and hundreds of pounds a year on top of their £82,000 salary.
30 MPs would be affected - 28 are Conservative.

However it is a difficult situation - I'm not convinced having more people become career politicians is a good thing either. Without real world experiences of situations they affect, they become detached from the impact of the votes and bills.

We already have a set of MPs going straight into politics from University so they don't know anything other that the Westminster world.

1andrew1 08-11-2021 09:22
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36100402)
However it is a difficult situation - I'm not convinced having more people become career politicians is a good thing either. Without real world experiences of situations they affect, they become detached from the impact of the votes and bills.

We already have a set of MPs going straight into politics from University so they don't know anything other that the Westminster world.
Banning an MP from holding other jobs doesn't prevent them from gaining real world experience before they become an MP, it just means they can't do it at the same time as they are an MP. I'm not sure how else you could draw the line.

ianch99 08-11-2021 09:29
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36100361)
One thing I have never quite agreed with is any MP having a second Job.

As an elected MP, your job should be serving your constituents, full time.
If you cant do that, then you should let someone else [who can] do the job.
This. Totally this and nothing else.

Increase the salaries to levels we see on the continent (top 5 countries) and also add a ban of taking up fat cat "positions on the board" for say, 3 years after leaving job to avoid any off grid influence.

Sephiroth 08-11-2021 09:32
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36100407)
This. Totally this and nothing else.

Increase the salaries to levels we see on the continent (top 5 countries) and also add a ban of taking up fat cat "positions on the board" for say, 3 years after leaving job to avoid any off grid influence.
Yep

1andrew1 08-11-2021 09:41
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36100407)
This. Totally this and nothing else.

Increase the salaries to levels we see on the continent (top 5 countries) and also add a ban of taking up fat cat "positions on the board" for say, 3 years after leaving job to avoid any off grid influence.
Agreed.

jfman 08-11-2021 10:11
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36100361)
One thing I have never quite agreed with is any MP having a second Job.

As an elected MP, your job should be serving your constituents, full time.
If you cant do that, then you should let someone else [who can] do the job.
Spot on.

Dave42 08-11-2021 14:17
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100386)
Monday's debate should be interesting! Johnson's not known for his apologies!

https://news.sky.com/story/sir-keir-...ebate-12463673

---------- Post added at 00:08 ---------- Previous post was at 00:06 ----------


Totally agree.

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

The best way for an MP to avoid conflicts of interests is by having no other jobs.
Johnson is doing it normal trick running away what a coward corrupt so and so

OLD BOY 08-11-2021 16:37
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36100438)
Johnson is doing it normal trick running away what a coward corrupt so and so
This has all been an hysterical over-reaction and the PM had more important prior engagements. He will be there for PMQs on Wednesday anyway, so I'm sure the Opposition will have plenty of time to harangue him over this then.

1andrew1 08-11-2021 16:50
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36100438)
Johnson is doing it normal trick running away what a coward corrupt so and so
Getting Johnson accountable is like nailing jelly to the wall!

daveeb 08-11-2021 16:53
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100450)
This has all been an hysterical over-reaction and the PM had more important prior engagements. He will be there for PMQs on Wednesday anyway, so I'm sure the Opposition will have plenty of time to harangue him over this then.
Yes he probably has a few peerages to sell before reluctantly rocking up to parliament. Answering questions about dubious conduct is not haranguing, it's being accountable which is something he doesn't think applies to him.

TheDaddy 08-11-2021 16:53
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36100407)
This. Totally this and nothing else.

Increase the salaries to levels we see on the continent (top 5 countries) and also add a ban of taking up fat cat "positions on the board" for say, 3 years after leaving job to avoid any off grid influence.
Any salary increase needs to be off set by the "package" being cut overall, I heard if they claim all they can and most of the grippy members do I'd imagine, they can trouser 400k a year

OLD BOY 08-11-2021 16:55
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100453)
Getting Johnson accountable is like nailing jelly to the wall!
Yes, but who wants to do that? I don't worry about difficult jobs like that if there's no practical purpose to doing so. Others, however, obsess about it!:D

Russ 08-11-2021 16:57
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100450)
This has all been an hysterical over-reaction and the PM had more important prior engagements. He will be there for PMQs on Wednesday anyway, so I'm sure the Opposition will have plenty of time to harangue him over this then.
What exactly does Bumbling Boris have to do for you to not regard his actions as an “hysterical overreaction”?

OLD BOY 08-11-2021 17:04
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveeb (Post 36100455)
Yes he probably has a few peerages to sell before reluctantly rocking up to parliament. Answering questions about dubious conduct is not haranguing, it's being accountable which is something he doesn't think applies to him.
Dubious conduct? Now let's see.

1 Tory MP is faced with suspension following disciplinary proceedings.
2 Said Tory MP says it's unfair because the committee did not consider all his arguments and key witnesses were not called.
3 To address the complaint, the government suggests that a right of appeal be added to the process (just as happens extensively elsewhere).
4 This is put to the House, and the House says 'No way, Hosè.
5 Suggestion is withdrawn.

That is basically what happened, and at no time was it suggested that Owen Paterson should be 'let off the hook'. However, that is the line being peddled by the Opposition and the media.

And that's why it's being claimed that this is a storm in a Westminster tea cup.

---------- Post added at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36100458)
What exactly does Bumbling Boris have to do for you to not regard his actions as an “hysterical overreaction”?
He has to do something wrong, not simply have a label thrown at him every time he takes action the opposition doesn't like.

This is just another opportunist swipe at the PM.

jfman 08-11-2021 17:07
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Old Boy reminds me of Comical Ali.

"There are no American tanks in Baghdad"

Russ 08-11-2021 17:20
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100461)
He has to do something wrong
Oh ok how about encouraging people to shake hands at the start of the pandemic. Or clap for the NHS but not give them a decent wave rise. How about going in to lockdown far too late. How about calling the Track and Trace “world beating”? Maybe assuring us there would be no change in the border between Great Britain and Eire? How about missing 5 Cobra meetings? How about sending the virus in to care homes? How about saying he’s “not one for gestures” but did press ups in his office? How about refusing to close the border from India in case it offended the Indians?

I mean I could go on and on but maybe answer those for a start and we’ll see where we go from there?

1andrew1 08-11-2021 17:39
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36100458)
What exactly does Bumbling Boris have to do for you to not regard his actions as an “hysterical overreaction”?
If anyone were happy for Johnson to lie to the Queen I'm not sure anything he has done since will cause them to questions his actions.

OLD BOY 08-11-2021 17:46
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36100467)
Oh ok how about encouraging people to shake hands at the start of the pandemic. Or clap for the NHS but not give them a decent wave rise. How about going in to lockdown far too late. How about calling the Track and Trace “world beating”? Maybe assuring us there would be no change in the border between Great Britain and Eire? How about missing 5 Cobra meetings? How about sending the virus in to care homes? How about saying he’s “not one for gestures” but did press ups in his office? How about refusing to close the border from India in case it offended the Indians?

I mean I could go on and on but maybe answer those for a start and we’ll see where we go from there?
You’ll have to wait while I seek out a publisher for the book I would have to write to answer that lot.

This is not a pandemic thread. However, I don’t blame you for this attempt at distraction since my essential point is that no-one asked for OP to be ‘let off the hook’. And I know that you cannot prove otherwise, which shows up this argument for what it is.

In my view, an appeals panel would probably uphold the original decision, but at least OP would have had the wind taken out of his sails.

---------- Post added at 17:46 ---------- Previous post was at 17:44 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100472)
If anyone were happy for Johnson to lie to the Queen I'm not sure anything he has done since will cause them to questions his actions.
More distraction. This is about the Owen Paterson case. Happy to deal with other questions in the relevant threads.

Russ 08-11-2021 17:54
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100473)
You’ll have to wait while I seek out a publisher for the book I would have to write to answer that lot.
No problem, I’m happy to wait. But you did ask.
Quote:
This is not a pandemic thread. However, I don’t blame you for this attempt at distraction since my essential point is that no-one asked for OP to be ‘let off the hook’. And I know that you cannot prove otherwise, which shows up this argument for what it is.
Oh my apologies. How about proroguing parliament? Lying to the Queen? Lying to us that there would be no checks on good between GB and Ireland? Saying black people had “watermelon smiles”? Referring to his quarter-of-a-million pound salary as “chicken feed”? Lying to the press about how many EU people had applied for HGV licences? Lying about how many new hospitals would be built? Lying about how many new nurses we’d have?

Will they do you? Or would you like to add further perimeters to allow you more room to wriggle?

jfman 08-11-2021 17:56
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Owen resigned in disgrace. The case is closed. The only question is the diminishing credibility of the Government after it’s hapless attempt at getting him off the hook. And whether hapless Starmer can make any inroads.

I suppose now at what point would you find the Government failing in any way, shape or form is a side question. But I suspect the rest of us know the answer.

Hugh 08-11-2021 18:29
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
4 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100461)
snippety snip snip…

He has to do something wrong, not simply have a label thrown at him every time he takes action the opposition doesn't like.’


This is just another opportunist swipe at the PM.
The best leaders lead by example - here’s Johnson today at a hospital…

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...4&d=1636396066

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1636396066

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...6&d=1636396066

Here are the Northumbria Hospitals guidelines for visitors.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...7&d=1636396362

daveeb 08-11-2021 18:51
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
I think his level of self entitlement and importance allows him to go mask free even in a hospital environment. Also the amount of hot air he exudes would be more than his chubby face could cope with if the air flow was restricted with a face covering.

Hugh 08-11-2021 19:03
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Interesting comment (imho) on LBC Radio today

Quote:
If you're being paid £200,000 or £300,000 as a lobbyist and you're getting £80,000 as an MP, then it's being an MP which is the second job.

OLD BOY 08-11-2021 19:57
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36100476)
No problem, I’m happy to wait. But you did ask.


Oh my apologies. How about proroguing parliament? Lying to the Queen? Lying to us that there would be no checks on good between GB and Ireland? Saying black people had “watermelon smiles”? Referring to his quarter-of-a-million pound salary as “chicken feed”? Lying to the press about how many EU people had applied for HGV licences? Lying about how many new hospitals would be built? Lying about how many new nurses we’d have?

Will they do you? Or would you like to add further perimeters to allow you more room to wriggle?
Again, nothing to do with this thread and I am not assisting you to go off topic and receive the ire of the mods.

Why don’t you give me a link to prove the assertion that the Conservatives were trying to let Paterson off the hook? The right of appeal would only let him off if the investigation was not properly carried out as he alleged.

I am very clear that an appeal would not have let him off the hook, unless there’s some evidence to the contrary of which I am unaware.

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36100479)
More deflection. This is the Owen Paterson thread.

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:45 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100478)
Owen resigned in disgrace. The case is closed. The only question is the diminishing credibility of the Government after it’s hapless attempt at getting him off the hook. And whether hapless Starmer can make any inroads.

I suppose now at what point would you find the Government failing in any way, shape or form is a side question. But I suspect the rest of us know the answer.
How can the matter be closed when the Opposition keep droning on and hyperventilating about it?

The correct course of action now should be to review the procedures with a view to establishing a right of appeal, which is what the government wanted all along. The delay to Paterson’s suspension while that was being considered was not an unreasonable suggestion.

All credit to the government for saying it was wrong to conflate the two issues, but I have to say that given the faults in the investigation that Paterson pointed out, an appeals process would have looked into whether or not that was an appropriate argument.

Hugh 08-11-2021 20:24
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100492)
Again, nothing to do with this thread and I am not assisting you to go off topic and receive the ire of the mods.

Why don’t you give me a link to prove the assertion that the Conservatives were trying to let Paterson off the hook? The right of appeal would only let him off if the investigation was not properly carried out as he alleged.

I am very clear that an appeal would not have let him off the hook, unless there’s some evidence to the contrary of which I am unaware.

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------


More deflection. This is the Owen Paterson thread.

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:45 ----------



How can the matter be closed when the Opposition keep droning on and hyperventilating about it?

The correct course of action now should be to review the procedures with a view to establishing a right of appeal, which is what the government wanted all along. The delay to Paterson’s suspension while that was being considered was not an unreasonable suggestion.

All credit to the government for saying it was wrong to conflate the two issues, but I have to say that given the faults in the investigation that Paterson pointed out, an appeals process would have looked into whether or not that was an appropriate argument.
My post was in reply to your comment about Boris

Quote:
He has to do something wrong, not simply have a label thrown at him every time he takes action the opposition doesn't like.’


This is just another opportunist swipe at the PM.
It would appear it’s OK for you to defend Johnson on this thread, but if anyone questions your defence, it’s "deflection"….

The thread is about someone not following the rules - I highlighted that Johnson was also not following the rules (albeit different rules), so your proposition that it is off-topic is incorrect.

Strange that you give credit to the Government for saying it got it wrong, but no criticism for the fact it got it wrong…

OLD BOY 08-11-2021 20:44
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36100501)
My post was in reply to your comment about Boris



It would appear it’s OK for you to defend Johnson on this thread, but if anyone questions your defence, it’s "deflection"….

The thread is about someone not following the rules - I highlighted that Johnson was also not following the rules (albeit different rules), so your proposition that it is off-topic is incorrect.

Strange that you give credit to the Government for saying it got it wrong, but no criticism for the fact it got it wrong…
I suggest you take another look at the title of this thread. It is specifically about the Paterson case. So the deflections I have been referring to certainly are off-topic.

I am giving credit to the government for being conciliatory about this but I don’t accept they did anything wrong. They did what they did for the best of reasons and to see justice done and failed. But they did not attempt to ‘let him off the hook’ as far as I can see. Delay the suspension until an appeals mechanism was established, yes, but there is nothing to suggest that an appeal would come to a different conclusion. This was just about a fair system of justice, and it was right to suggest that Paterson was given this right of appeal given the particular issues he raised.

1andrew1 08-11-2021 22:08
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
The pantomime season has started early this year in Berkshire, I see. ;)

Q. What does Boris Johnson have to do for you to not regard his actions as an “hysterical overreaction”?
OB. Something wrong
Q. Forum members contribute some suggested wrongs including lying to the Queen.
OB. More deflection, this is the Owen Paterson thread.
:confused:

Hugh 08-11-2021 22:22
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100504)
I suggest you take another look at the title of this thread. It is specifically about the Paterson case. So the deflections I have been referring to certainly are off-topic.

I am giving credit to the government for being conciliatory about this but I don’t accept they did anything wrong. They did what they did for the best of reasons and to see justice done and failed. But they did not attempt to ‘let him off the hook’ as far as I can see. Delay the suspension until an appeals mechanism was established, yes, but there is nothing to suggest that an appeal would come to a different conclusion. This was just about a fair system of justice, and it was right to suggest that Paterson was given this right of appeal given the particular issues he raised.
Well, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office speaking at the Dispatch Box in the HoC today disagrees with you…

Quote:
Mr Barclay told MPs: "I would like first and foremost to express my regret, and that of my ministerial colleagues, over the mistake made last week."
He said there had been concerns about the investigations system but said that had been "conflated" with Mr Paterson's case.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59213255

---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ----------

Good article about this in today’s Times, from a Conservative MP.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...site-lzct55zd5

Quote:
Yesterday’s vote was different. As MPs we are elected by our 650 constituencies to defend their liberties. As members of parliament we enjoy privileges so that we can challenge the institutions of government on their behalf.

In return for those privileges we are expected to abide by the code of conduct and ensure that we register all our outside interests with the Parliamentary Commissioner who has the authority to investigate breaches of the code.

This isn’t a judicial process or a matter of law. It is a system of self regulation. The Parliamentary Commissioner will refer matters in the first instance to the committee on standards who will make a recommendation which is then considered by the whole house.

This process is enshrined in the code of conduct and in standing orders of the house. We are expected to abide by it in both our behaviour and in how we judge the behaviour of our fellow MPs

The principle is that judgment is exercised by the member’s peers, not by government. It is the job of the house to judge whether a breach has occurred as described by the commissioner and to resolve an appropriate penalty or otherwise. It is based on the principle that we are all honourable members and we all have an interest in maintaining the respect for parliament.

Such “house business” has traditionally been unwhipped. Whipping should be only for the management of government business. It reflects badly that it was used in this context, however well intentioned and whatever the party considers its duty of care.

It is entirely understandable that colleagues did not wish to vote for the penalties that were proposed for Owen Paterson. There is every sympathy for him. Sympathy I share. But I also respect the judgment of my colleagues on the standards committee who concurred that there was clear evidence that the ban on paid advocacy had been breached.

The vote totally undermined the deliberations of a committee of the house appointed for the purpose. That is totally regrettable and unfair on the colleagues who acted in good faith.

jfman 08-11-2021 22:28
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100492)
Again, nothing to do with this thread and I am not assisting you to go off topic and receive the ire of the mods.

Why don’t you give me a link to prove the assertion that the Conservatives were trying to let Paterson off the hook? The right of appeal would only let him off if the investigation was not properly carried out as he alleged.

I am very clear that an appeal would not have let him off the hook, unless there’s some evidence to the contrary of which I am unaware.

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------


More deflection. This is the Owen Paterson thread.

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:45 ----------



How can the matter be closed when the Opposition keep droning on and hyperventilating about it?

The correct course of action now should be to review the procedures with a view to establishing a right of appeal, which is what the government wanted all along. The delay to Paterson’s suspension while that was being considered was not an unreasonable suggestion.

All credit to the government for saying it was wrong to conflate the two issues, but I have to say that given the faults in the investigation that Paterson pointed out, an appeals process would have looked into whether or not that was an appropriate argument.
You will note OB that I said his guilt was “case closed” with his resignation.

If the opposition want to make political capital out of corruption - and indeed a Government led bid to get him off the hook they are free to do so.

The Government deserves no credit whatsoever for belatedly recognising what is obvious to all members of this thread except seemingly one.

The correct course of action is to acknowledge that due process - as established by our great sovereign Parliament - was followed. A guilty man has resigned. A grubby cover-up was torpedoed and backbenchers are furious with Number 10 for being co-opted into it.

You are so far out on your own on this one it’s simply preposterous.

There is little further to add.

Chris 08-11-2021 23:15
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100504)
I suggest you take another look at the title of this thread. It is specifically about the Paterson case. So the deflections I have been referring to certainly are off-topic.

I am giving credit to the government for being conciliatory about this but I don’t accept they did anything wrong. They did what they did for the best of reasons and to see justice done and failed. But they did not attempt to ‘let him off the hook’ as far as I can see. Delay the suspension until an appeals mechanism was established, yes, but there is nothing to suggest that an appeal would come to a different conclusion. This was just about a fair system of justice, and it was right to suggest that Paterson was given this right of appeal given the particular issues he raised.
Even if the government’s motives were 100% honourable and unimpeachable in any way*, the execution was so horribly inept that Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition would be close to committing treason if they didn’t put both boots in, repeatedly, for at least a week.

Government is a political process and the politics at play here have been inept. I mean, Sid of the Sunday League type inept. This was a failure of judgment on such an astronomical scale, Dr Brian Cox was already scripting the 3-part landmark series, until he got into a bidding war with Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson because the government’s screeching u-turn was so spectacular he wants to incorporate it in his next film.

I’ll admit, it was so eye-watering that at first I had a hard time believing it could have been signed off at the top. But the jig is up. The high heid yins of the British cabinet actually thought this was a good idea. And that’s why a great many Tory MPs won’t even defend what you seem to think was a minor scrape that ended in lashings of ginger beer in the rose garden with no real harm done.

You really need to learn to read the room.



*they aren’t.

Dave42 09-11-2021 00:36
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100507)
The pantomime season has started early this year in Berkshire, I see. ;)

Q. What does Boris Johnson have to do for you to not regard his actions as an “hysterical overreaction”?
OB. Something wrong
Q. Forum members contribute some suggested wrongs including lying to the Queen.
OB. More deflection, this is the Owen Paterson thread.
:confused:
you know OB will never ever admit tories doing anything wrong and never ever take off them tory rose tinted glasses imagine if it was another party that did what Paterson did he would change his tune straight away

Russ 09-11-2021 07:26
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100492)
Again, nothing to do with this thread and I am not assisting you to go off topic and receive the ire of the mods.
Well... you did bring up the subject of asking what he's done wrong. And when you were answered you covered your eyes by calling it "deflection".

But don't worry! The very next time you bring up anything positive about Bumbling Boris I'll be there to repeat the exact same questions, giving you enough time to formulate some answers.

Sephiroth 09-11-2021 08:29
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36100524)
you know OB will never ever admit tories doing anything wrong and never ever take off them tory rose tinted glasses imagine if it was another party that did what Paterson did he would change his tune straight away
I'm not sure that OB is a member of the Conservative Party - at least based his profile photo, I don't recall him being at any of the constituency events.

Whether or not I am right about OB, I am a member of the party and can't stand Boris nor his governmental style. Not much I can do about it until the Parliamentary lot get their act together and oust that buffoon.

1andrew1 09-11-2021 09:28
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36100532)
I'm not sure that OB is a member of the Conservative Party - at least based his profile photo, I don't recall him being at any of the constituency events.

Whether or not I am right about OB, I am a member of the party and can't stand Boris nor his governmental style. Not much I can do about it until the Parliamentary lot get their act together and oust that buffoon.
There have been many people like Old Boy were wearing rose-tinted spectacles until very recently. Johnson won a great majority, "got Brexit done" and surely a few misdemeanors could be overlooked? After all, everyone knew Johnson had history. Scandal about who was paying for Downing Street's refurbishment? He's a bit of a rascal but he's our rascal. U-turns on free school dinners, exam grades, National Insurance hikes. No problem, still ahead in the polls. Scandal about a free holiday or two? Labour can't do anything, it's just Boris.

But trying to retrospectively rewrite the governance of Parliament and to whip MPs into voting for it has crossed the line for many traditional Conservative voters. They didn't vote to turn the UK into a banana republic.
And worsened by not turning up for yesterday's debate which reinforces negative perceptions. This shows he's either being poorly advised or ignoring good advice. Neither is good.

I'm sure Old Boy will come round to your way of thinking in due course, Seph.

TheDaddy 09-11-2021 22:02
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Looks like another headache on the horizon for bozo if Windsor MP Adam Afriyie is forced to step down due to a possible bankruptcy restriction order over unpaid taxes

Hugh 09-11-2021 22:11
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
20,000 majority - probably fairly safe…

Careful Old Boy doesn’t chastise you for being "off topic"…. :)

Damien 09-11-2021 23:04
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1458201451176550409

Quote:
EXCL: Sir Geoffrey Cox is tonight being referred to the standards commissioner by Labour after he appeared to use his Commons office to represent the British Virgin Islands in a corruption case against the UK government
A sitting MP, using his office and time, to represent a case against the Government he is serving as an MP!

jfman 09-11-2021 23:30
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Suspect the Mail and Express won’t let up until they get their man.

1andrew1 09-11-2021 23:33
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36100617)
https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1458201451176550409
A sitting MP, using his office and time, to represent a case against the Government he is serving as an MP!
It's called treason in my book, corruption is too minor a term!

---------- Post added at 23:33 ---------- Previous post was at 23:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100618)
Suspect the Mail and Express won’t let up until they get their man.
Who is their man? Cox or Johnson?

Dave42 09-11-2021 23:33
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100620)
It's called treason in my book, corruption is too minor a term!

---------- Post added at 23:33 ---------- Previous post was at 23:31 ----------


Who is their man? Cox or Johnson?
guess Johnson as both turned against him


here another headling against a tory MP

Iain Duncan Smith accused of ‘brazen conflict of interest’ over £25,000 job

Iain Duncan Smith accused of ‘brazen conflict of interest’ over £25,000 job
Ex-Tory leader chaired government taskforce that recommended new rules benefiting firm he was employed by

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...over-25000-job

jfman 09-11-2021 23:48
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Johnson.

My prediction is this drip drip drip of corruption stories will continue for some time. There’s probably a number of backbenchers wondering if they will be next and would prefer that the dogs get called off. Or fed a big fat useless slab of meat to placate them.

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:44 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36100622)
guess Johnson as both turned against him

here another headling against a tory MP

Iain Duncan Smith accused of ‘brazen conflict of interest’ over £25,000 job

Iain Duncan Smith accused of ‘brazen conflict of interest’ over £25,000 job
Ex-Tory leader chaired government taskforce that recommended new rules benefiting firm he was employed by

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...over-25000-job
Might be easier if they just published a list of who doesn’t have their hand in the till.

1andrew1 10-11-2021 00:17
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36100450)
This has all been an hysterical over-reaction and the PM had more important prior engagements. He will be there for PMQs on Wednesday anyway, so I'm sure the Opposition will have plenty of time to harangue him over this then.
PMQs is not happening this week, Old Boy
.
He was back in London in time to have made the debate.
https://twitter.com/TD_Hancock/statu...08467670720517

TheDaddy 10-11-2021 01:16
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36100612)
20,000 majority - probably fairly safe…

Careful Old Boy doesn’t chastise you for being "off topic"…. :)
He might not even get the restriction on his bankruptcy, it's only if he's found to have been dishonest or corrupt it's applied, even so it's yet another one up to his neck in the brown stuff

I couldn't care less what that guy says or does, I got bored of his nonsense, his misunderstanding things and his misrepresentation of posts so I just ignore him now, life's to short to have his dull, boring bs in it

papa smurf 10-11-2021 09:33
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
The LABOUR MPs with second jobs: David Lammy has earned £141,000 in three years for speeches at Google, Facebook, City corporations and media appearances while Keir Starmer pocketed £25k for legal advice


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ree-years.html

Other Labour MPs with second jobs include Khalid Mahmood, MP for Birmingham Perry Bar, who advises think-tank the Policy Exchange on issues including extremism for £25,000 a year.

Margaret Hodge has a £20,000-a-year role at Royal Holloway University and Dan Jarvis is paid £79,000 to serve as Metro Mayor of the Sheffield City Region.

Meanwhile, Christ Bryant received £2,000 for speaking at an event for Goldman Sachs.

jfman 10-11-2021 09:43
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36100633)
The LABOUR MPs with second jobs: David Lammy has earned £141,000 in three years for speeches at Google, Facebook, City corporations and media appearances while Keir Starmer pocketed £25k for legal advice


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ree-years.html

Other Labour MPs with second jobs include Khalid Mahmood, MP for Birmingham Perry Bar, who advises think-tank the Policy Exchange on issues including extremism for £25,000 a year.

Margaret Hodge has a £20,000-a-year role at Royal Holloway University and Dan Jarvis is paid £79,000 to serve as Metro Mayor of the Sheffield City Region.

Meanwhile, Christ Bryant received £2,000 for speaking at an event for Goldman Sachs.
The Dan Jarvis one is my favourite. He’s been elected to two jobs, and been re-elected to the first one in 2019 having taken the second one in in 2018.

Not the best example of whataboutery it’s not like he trousered 400 grand advising a tax haven on how to win a legal case against the UK.

papa smurf 10-11-2021 09:46
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100634)
The Dan Jarvis one is my favourite. He’s been elected to two jobs, and been re-elected to the first one in 2019 having taken the second one in in 2018.

Not the best example of whataboutery it’s not like he trousered 400 grand advising a tax haven on how to win a legal case against the UK.
Unlike your good self i am just an unbiased observer of this subject.

1andrew1 10-11-2021 10:07
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100634)
The Dan Jarvis one is my favourite. He’s been elected to two jobs, and been re-elected to the first one in 2019 having taken the second one in in 2018.

Not the best example of whataboutery it’s not like he trousered 400 grand advising a tax haven on how to win a legal case against the UK.
It raises another valid question - should someone be alllowed to do a Boris Johnson and Dan Jarvis and be both an MP and Mayor?

Johnson's reaction to the corruption scandals is to target the mask sceptics by not wearing one on his Monday hospital visit and try and do a Henry V and pick a fight with France to distract people.

---------- Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36100635)
Unlike your good self i am just an unbiased observer of this subject.
Sorry to break this to you. Everyone on this forum including you, me and jfman: We're all biased. ;)

Hugh 10-11-2021 10:11
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36100635)
Unlike your good self i am just an unbiased observer of this subject.
You should be a politician - you managed to say that without laughing... :D

jfman 10-11-2021 10:36
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100636)
It raises another valid question - should someone be alllowed to do a Boris Johnson and Dan Jarvis and be both an MP and Mayor?

Johnson's reaction to the corruption scandals is to target the mask sceptics by not wearing one on his Monday hospital visit and try and do a Henry V and pick a fight with France to distract people.

---------- Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 ----------


Sorry to break this to you. Everyone on this forum including you, me and jfman: We're all biased. ;)
I'm inclined to think someone being elected to two public offices as less of a conflict of interest than Owen Paterson, Geoffrey Cox, IDS in the pockets of corporations and tax havens. Then having the gall to claim they can't live on £81k while cutting benefits and raising taxes.

1andrew1 10-11-2021 11:06
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100642)
I'm inclined to think someone being elected to two public offices as less of a conflict of interest than Owen Paterson, Geoffrey Cox, IDS in the pockets of corporations and tax havens. Then having the gall to claim they can't live on £81k while cutting benefits and raising taxes.
Yes - giving legal advice against the British government whilst serving as an MP is treason in my book.

IDS chairing a committee that makes decisions that impact an organisation he works for is corruption.

Funny how many jobs in the real world for far less money than MPs' salaries are exclusive contracts so you can't work for anyone else. Yet for those who govern us, such rules don't apply. :confused:

TheDaddy 10-11-2021 12:08
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100636)
Sorry to break this to you. Everyone on this forum including you, me and jfman: We're all biased. ;)
I'm not biased to a party, I can't stand any of them.

John Redwood getting criticised now

Maggy 10-11-2021 12:37
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100646)
Yes - giving legal advice against the British government whilst serving as an MP is treason in my book.

IDS chairing a committee that makes decisions that impact an organisation he works for is corruption.

Funny how many jobs in the real world for far less money than MPs' salaries are exclusive contracts so you can't work for anyone else. Yet for those who govern us, such rules don't apply. :confused:
The one group whom I don't think should be able to take a second job are the police.However I don't mind the fact that they can because they have to run it past their superiors and frankly the salary they recieve are truly peanuts compared to our representatives in Parliament.I really don't think that public servants should be able to take on second paid job that may cause conflict in their main job.

Carth 10-11-2021 12:41
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
In this day and age, nobody - from the top to the bottom - should need a second job.

jfman 10-11-2021 12:55
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36100660)
In this day and age, nobody - from the top to the bottom - should need a second job.
We need poor people for the people slightly better off than them to look down at though.

heero_yuy 10-11-2021 13:42
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100664)
We need poor people for the people slightly better off than them to look down at though.

TheDaddy 10-11-2021 14:06
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36100660)
In this day and age, nobody - from the top to the bottom - should need a second job.
:clap:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36100664)
We need poor people for the people slightly better off than them to look down at though.
And to blame for why their life isn't better, I find it one of life's oddities that we seek to blame those beneath us rather than look up to those above us who actually exert some influence upon us, perhaps that's due to the old class system or just the human predilection to blame someone, it can't just be fate, luck or worse still a bit of personal responsibility in the blame game

Blackshep 10-11-2021 14:23
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Well the next election is a pass for me the corruption and sleaze in this current Tory party makes it impossible for me to vote for them and even if they got rid of boris the buffoon it isn't enough. From dubious 2nd jobs to the awarding of contracts the Johnson government has looked more like a friends beneficiary organisation then a real government but as bad as they are I couldn't vote for labour. We really are running out of options and given the way things are going retirement can't come soon enough.

papa smurf 10-11-2021 14:27
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackshep (Post 36100679)
Well the next election is a pass for me the corruption and sleaze in this current Tory party makes it impossible for me to vote for them and even if they got rid of boris the buffoon it isn't enough. From dubious 2nd jobs to the awarding of contracts the Johnson government has looked more like a friends beneficiary organisation then a real government but as bad as they are I couldn't vote for labour. We really are running out of options and given the way things are going retirement can't come soon enough.
They hate pensioners so be careful what you wish for.

Russ 10-11-2021 16:40
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36100660)
In this day and age, nobody - from the top to the bottom - should need a second job.
As well as my main job in Law I’m also a wrestling referee and ring announcer, both of which I get paid for. Nothing I’m ever going to retire on but enough to get me through January when I’m always skint after Christmas.

Why shouldn’t I have those extra jobs?

TheDaddy 10-11-2021 17:01
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36100703)
As well as my main job in Law I’m also a wrestling referee and ring announcer, both of which I get paid for. Nothing I’m ever going to retire on but enough to get me through January when I’m always skint after Christmas.

Why shouldn’t I have those extra jobs?
Would you need additional jobs if you were paid £80k+ and had a renumeration "package" work hundreds of thousands more? I took his point to be that no one's wage for a full time job should leave them in a position where they need to take on a part time job just to get by, which incidentally you don't by the sound of it, you want nice Christmas' without getting into debt which is fair enough but hardly the same as choosing whether to eat or pay full rent

Russ 10-11-2021 17:12
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
I took “nobody” to mean nobody I guess….

TheDaddy 10-11-2021 17:44
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36100710)
I took “nobody” to mean nobody I guess….
It's true though isn't it Russ, you don't do that because you have to and truth be known you've probably done it plenty of times for no pay at all

Paul 10-11-2021 18:00
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36100660)
In this day and age, nobody - from the top to the bottom - should need a second job.
Either you are really clueless, or just trolling for a reaction.

Plenty of people need a second job in order to earn reasonable money, and not rely on handouts.

Just becasue the UK average is £30K does not mean everyone gets it.

Hugh 10-11-2021 18:11
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Sleaze is just corruption with a good accountant and lawyer…

jfman 10-11-2021 18:24
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36100717)
Either you are really clueless, or just trolling for a reaction.

Plenty of people need a second job in order to earn reasonable money, and not rely on handouts.

Just becasue the UK average is £30K does not mean everyone gets it.
In fairness he said “should”. The economy shouldn’t be structured in such a way two people need to work for peanuts (and be supplemented by the taxpayer) to keep a roof over their head and pay the bills.

However everyone jumped on the bandwagon, mortgaged themselves up to their combined eyeballs, pushed house prices up and aren’t genuinely better off for it.

Damien 10-11-2021 18:31
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36100717)
Either you are really clueless, or just trolling for a reaction.

Plenty of people need a second job in order to earn reasonable money, and not rely on handouts.

Just becasue the UK average is £30K does not mean everyone gets it.
I think that's his point no? That people shouldn't need a second job and that some people do is a failure of our economy.

TheDaddy 10-11-2021 18:41
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36100717)
Either you are really clueless, or just trolling for a reaction.

Plenty of people need a second job in order to earn reasonable money, and not rely on handouts.

Just becasue the UK average is £30K does not mean everyone gets it.
I don't think it clueless or trolling for this country to aspire to it's citizens earning a wage for a full time job that they can actually live on without working themselves to death doing extra elsewhere, 30 years ago most CEOs pay was 40x its lowest paid member of staff now it's hundreds of times that, we've got money for them but not for everyone else

Paul 10-11-2021 18:50
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36100721)
I think that's his point no? That people shouldn't need a second job and that some people do is a failure of our economy.
No, thats not my interpretation, but even if it were, such a 'utopia' isnt possible.

Yes, I'm sure it would be nice if every person who wanted a full time job that paid well could just go out and get one, but thats just wisful thinking.
So yes, some people will always need more than one job (often 2+ part time jobs).

On the other hand, some people definite dont require them, and I would class MPs as people who dont need second jobs.

---------- Post added at 18:50 ---------- Previous post was at 18:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36100722)
I don't think it clueless .....
I do. Its living in a fantasy world.

Sephiroth 10-11-2021 22:12
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36100721)
I think that's his point no? That people shouldn't need a second job and that some people do is a failure of our economy.
Oooh. That simplification cannot be right. I've done it in the past to save up for a far-away holiday. Nothing to do with the economy.

The implication of what you've said is that the economy needs to be level so that nobody needs two jobs. That's impossible owing to human nature.

Pierre 10-11-2021 22:42
Re: Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up
 
It’s a failure that being a member of Parliament is not considered worthy enough of being a full time job.

Let’s face it the quality of MPs is extremely variable. If Angela Rayner qualifies, then anyone qualifies.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to set a minimum criteria for what is required for a person to stand as an MP, and have prospective candidates assessed before an independent panel before they are allowed to stand for election.


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