Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

arrr the goldilocks paradox. Everything just right anyone could have thought it was all made for us ;)

you are right there is no conflict between science and religion there is conflict between people and their conflicting views and how they deal with that.

I have no issue with anyone elses belief. If a scientist knocked on my door and wanted to discuss their beliefs with me I would enjoy the conversation.

Sometimes when I knock someones door ( not happened since the pandemic ) I have often been greeted with anger and hostility. You have seen a taste of it here with the use of the word impose. I am not trying to force anything upon anyone. I am offering a message of hope and come with love in my heart. They can refuse to listen or say they are to busy and off I would trot onto the next door. I am not asking for money or trying to scam them just trying to be a friend.

My point from when I joined in on this topic when I said about the atheist imposing their view. I offer my view kindly they often offer theirs in anger or disdain

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I think you will find there a lot of conflict between science and religion :)

But why would they need to? They have no need to persuade you of anything.

But you are not " just trying to be a friend" are you? You have a specific mission to complete.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Science and religion are not sentient so cannot be anything other than what they are

Just saying

Trying to find like hearted ones not trying to force anyone into anything. We in fact only let people become a witness after much study and then it is their choice. Many people think there is something more and just do not know what it is maybe it is God they are looking for

edit I have said what the specific mission is and that is to see the message of the kingdom preached in all corners of the world so the end can come. Matthew Chapter 24 verse 14

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I’m curious - as I indicated earlier, my view is based on broad experience. I’m a father and a friend of fathers and mothers, through family, neighbourhood and school connections. Throughout, you have offered your view without indicating whether you also are speaking from experience. Do you have children?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Ok but you keep trying to position science as a belief when it isn't, it's a process.

There are scientists who have a religion and for a long time in human history most scientists (at least in the Western History I have knowledge of) were religious along with the rest of society. Science is not an alternative faith or religion.

Obviously, there are conflicts such as some in America trying to position creationism within the sciences or atheists who think it's their job to convert people away from their faith using science which is what I assume you're actually talking about. That doesn't make science a belief, even atheism isn't a belief.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Casuistry - equating science with religion, when one is based on observable, measurable, repeatable phenomena, and the other isn’t…

I see the same wordplay and twisting on the JW site, with questions such as This is deliberately misleading, as Evolutionists do not claim that humans evolved from apes - they state the evidence shows we have common ancestors, and the different branches of Hominids evolved along different paths.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Did anyone see the big bang? did anyone see the primeval swamp? has anyone seen dark matter or dark energy the invented things when the whole theory of the big bang starts falling on its butt? Science keeps updating so how much of what you think is real will be proven otherwise in the future?

When I was a child they talked of a missing link that now is thought never existed so as I said it all could so easily be wrong. You believe in the THEORY of evolution I believe in the THEORY of creation.

Incidentally I see no one has jumped on my thoughts on infinity and given me a scientific spin on that hey

---------- Post added at 21:24 ---------- Previous post was at 21:21 ----------

If this one miraculous single celled organism in a primeval swamp millions and millions of years ago evolved to adapt to its environment why is there so much variety? I just do not buy it

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Hope this helps…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guide...mnb/revision/1

According to your line of "reasoning", if someone hasn’t actually been to Australia, it is perfectly valid for them to state that it doesn’t exist…

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

The Big Bang and Evolution are not treated the same in science. Different scientific theories have different levels of confidence.

The Big Bang is currently the most widely supported theory for how this Universe started with most of what we understand about it to be consistent with the universe we can observe. It explains what we do know such as the fact galaxies are moving apart from each other, the energy that would have been required to create the matter we know of and the Cosmic Microwave Background.

But the Big Band remains the best-accepted theory and is not considered proven. It's just the one that has the most evidence so far.

Evolution is much further along.

They're all called theories though because it's an explanation of how things work. It's still called 'the theory of gravity' for example.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Only a fool denies the existence of Glenn Miller.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

and infinity?

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:49 ----------

and infinity ?

---------- Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------

and of the day I cannot prove you are wrong and you cannot prove you are right and neither can you me.

If I am right there is a future for us to look forward to. If you are right we only have death

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

We don't know if the universe is infinite or not. All we know is our observable universe is finite (because we can only see so far!)

I am not trying to prove you wrong and it's not 'me' who'll ever be proven right as these are not my questions to answer.

I am just trying to point out to you what is actually believed about the theories of evolution and the big bang and what the definition of 'theory' is.


On the plus side if I am right this thread won't go on forever....

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

if it is not then what is it in?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

our entire universe could be inside a crouton floating in a bowl of soup in another universe :shrug:

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Infinity is much farther than faith, science or imagination can take you . .

all I know is . . it has no boundaries ;)

edit:

I prefer the mirror in a brothel version ;)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

yes but if you read this thread I have had replies trying to tell me scientific theory is reality and so on when let's face it science has not even scratched the balls of reality yet

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Is there actually a reality? :Yikes:

. . in fact, do any of you exist and I'm creating my own past present and future to fill the void?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

But has organised religion "scratched the balls of reality yet" ?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

All this talk about infinity is interesting but what about the bit beyond infinity that Mr Lightyear frequents?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I'm not sure we can travel beyond infinity, though if we did manage it, would we end up at the beginning again . . the infinite loop theory?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

what is that in ? or what surrounds that ?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

that's my point, there's no 'end' to infinity so how can you go 'beyond' it :D

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

God knows

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Whether the Bible is BS or not this thread certainly is.:rolleyes:

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Mathematical or Philosophical infinity?

I can prove to you Gravitational Theory works… ;)

Anyway, enough of playing chess with pigeons - I am off to be insouciantly ineffable...

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Did you see the bit I posted about my Father who is a physicist who said we know the laws of physics on this planet but we know didly know about the rest of the universe. Wink at me as much as you want makes no difference

Not impressed with the Chess with pigeons edit either. Just because I believe in God does not make me an idiot and just because I refuse to accept scientific theories outside of what we can witness first hand does not either

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Yes, but what lies beyond the loop?

---------- Post added at 18:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

I notice that you said your 'Father' as opposed to your 'father'.

Is there a cryptic clue to something in there? :shocked:

---------- Post added at 18:18 ---------- Previous post was at 18:15 ----------

I haven't seen the air either, but I believe in it. At least while I keep breathing. :D

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Two French trawlers waiting to pounce, a faded Pirelli calender featuring Brigitte Bardot, and a pair of winged gold sandals . . one careful owner. ;)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I don’t think you’re an idiot because you believe in God…

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Yes, two - both in their mid to late twenties. I am also talking from experience but I think we should agree to differ on this subject :) Life's too short ..

It is always difficult to persuade someone of a position when said position is precluded by their dogma.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

On that we agree.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Trust me I really do not like you either.

I assume it is ok for moderators to insult someone even in a snide cloaked manner on this forum then ???

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I see no insult there, I read it as a straight reply to your comment.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

he is calling me an idiot in a underhand snide way, twice

---------- Post added at 20:31 ---------- Previous post was at 20:29 ----------

Father as in my dad is a familiar noun and therefore should be capitalised

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I don't think he is, at worst he is joking imo

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

The laws of physics work on the rest of the observable universe. That's how we can land equipment on Mars, measure the light of distant stars and detect planets by the gravitational pull on that light.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Mars is like just up the road and everything else is thoery.

Got the whole universal expansion thing wrong didn't they ? invented Dark Matter and Dark Energy to make it fit

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

This is like reading a NTHellworld religion thread from about 2005. Except back then it was me posting the anti-science stuff. :disturbd:

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Fiziks has changed since then:)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I miss Graham.

You’re wrong.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I won't hear a word against the clairvoyants :)

What do you miss most, the leather fetish?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Ahem, the affordable leather actually.

And you’re wrong.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

There isn't any reason physics would work differently on Earth and Mars than it does in the next galaxy over. We can measure light from those galaxies so we know they're there and we've done enough tests on light to be confident in how it works.

Dark Matter wasn't 'invented'. It was hypothesised it had to be there because we can observe its effects on what's around it. Scientists do not know what it is, only that's it's there.

That science cannot explain everything isn't a flaw.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I miss Graham. I don’t miss him hosting a Friday afternoon quiz on the same server as his online leather bondage shop. :D

But no, what’s changed for me is that I’m looking at my faith down the other end of the telescope. I’m meant to be a disciple of Jesus, who happens to be a member of a discussion forum, not somebody who lives for a good argument with strangers on the internet and who also happens to be a Christian.

Jesus didn’t spend his time debating cosmology. He taught his disciples to do to others what they would have done to themselves, to honour their promises, to care for the weak, to stand up against oppression and to do all of the above from a posture of mercy and humility. He offered the strength of God himself to those who would live this way and the forgiveness of God to all those whose lives have fallen short of his holiness. His disciples came fairly quickly to understand that Jesus is only able to call people to live this way and to offer forgiveness to those who mess up because he is himself God incarnate. Thus following Jesus isn’t like following the Buddha, some other guru or a secular life-coach, because he’s not just another man, or even a rare and special man. it’s a life-changing faith in which one is in spiritual relationship with, and worship of, the one we follow.

The age of the universe and the laws of physics are fun and interesting topics but they don’t drive or motivate my faith. I’m sorry there was ever a time I allowed even the appearance that that was the case. Following Jesus isn’t about arguing over gravity or dark matter. It’s about citizenship in his divine kingdom and living in a way that shows personal and community transformation, forgiveness and a fresh start is possible.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...%20after%20all.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...-the-universe/

https://www.thefirstnews.com/article...ts-finds-12416

As I say my Father is a physicist I think I will go with what he says over a guy on a forum

They do not know it is there. They need it to be to make other theories work

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

In the same way you need god to be there :shrug:

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Not denying that I am just pointing out whichever way you go it is still all faith

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I’m not sure I like your definition of faith though.

You prefer to characterise it as uncertainty, unreliability and plain old human invention. Scientists don’t arrive at the laws of physics in such a cavalier way and I certainly didn’t arrive at my faith in God like that.

My faith in God began with a decision to trust that what is reported of Jesus in the Bible is true. I became his disciple and day by day I find his teaching to be trustworthy. Through this process faith grows and sustains my belief in those aspects of his teaching I cannot yet see with my own eyes. He has always been faithful to me, even when I have acted faithlessly towards him. So I receive forgiveness and renewed trust and expanded faith. And so the discipleship journey continues.

There is a certain, limited sense in which scientists are doing something similar (except without the forgiveness and relationship!), in that they have sound experimental reasons to trust the laws of physics they work with as they explore the universe. But as I said, this process is not as you have characterised it, and if it was so chaotic and borderline deceptive, then attempting to equate scientific enquiry with the growth of Christian faith would be a very poor line of argument indeed.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I know you are prejudiced towards me because I am a Jehovah's Witness and that is fine we expect that :)

It is not my definition of faith it is the definition of faith

"complete trust or confidence in someone or something."

I have faith there is a God and his name is Jehovah and he sent his first angel to Earth to pay a ransom sacrifice for Adams sin

Those who follow Science have faith that the things they cannot possibly know but trust that there was a big bang and everything has evolved

All just faith

Incidentally scientists think everything we believe is invention but hey lets just single out the Jehovahs

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

With scientific papers (especially reports on early pre-peer reviewed papers), it’s always best check the updated source material - for instance, the pre-release paper quoted in the first two articles never went to publication because they couldn’t duplicate the results (the basis of Science being that things are observable, measurable, and repeatable).

https://arxiv.org/abs/1008.3907# (updated paper a year after the initial paper).

The third link was referring to this paper from last year

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aay9672

The scientist quoted said "may have been smaller", not "were smaller’ The joy of Science is that if it finds something that doesn’t fit with previous findings, it’s announced, investigated, and peer-reviewed - the first two examples you provided couldn’t be validated, and the third has found a single source anomaly which is being investigated further; the third paper doesn’t say "the laws of physics can vary", it states "we find a spatial variation is preferred over a no-variation model at the 3.9σ level.."

Here’s the layman’s version of that third paper.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020...stant-in-time/

tl:dr - something that differed from previous findings has occurred, more investigations needed.

btw, you keep bringing up the fact that your father is a physicist - may I ask which branch of physics he specialises in, as Physics is an enormous field (for example, my God-son has a Degree and a Masters in Astrophysics, but I wouldn’t expect him to be an expert or to keep up to date with advances in Nuclear Physics, Quantum Mechanics, Fluid Mechanics, Geophysics, or any of the other complex areas of Physics).

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I am sorry Hugh but after how you have responded to me in this thread I will not be reading any of your replies to me at all. Just thought I would let you know to save you wasting your time

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Convenient…

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Oh, where to begin.

The Hebrew Tetragrammaton is transliterated as YHWH. It is probably more accurate to Anglicise it as Yahweh but that’s a minor point. It means “I Am” and is intended to convey his eternal power and sovereignty more than to give his people a name to call him by. The Old Testament does indeed use I AM (YHWH) as a name but Jewish tradition has been to speak ‘The Lord’ and Christians for centuries have translated it ‘The LORD’ out of respect for that tradition. At the end of the day, I don’t call my parents by their given names even though I know what they are, out of respect for the relationship between us.

Second, Jesus is not, and never was, an angel. The writer to the Hebrews addressed this, calling the Son the “ the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being” (v3), asking “For to which of the angels did God ever say?” (v5, and following verses) and stating that God addressed the Son as “Lord” (v10).

Jesus is the eternal Son of God (Son being a signifier of relationship not progeny). He is as much God as is the Father and the Spirit; even your own organisation’s highly questionable rendering of the New Testament can’t hide Thomas’ realisation of Jesus Divine nature on seeing him resurrected (John 20:28). The great weight of New Testament witness to who exactly Jesus is only makes your organisation’s deliberate misrepresentation of John 1:1 even more silly. But your New World ‘translation’ says what it does because that’s what the Watchtower Society needs it to say.

I will say no more about the definition of the word ‘faith’ as used in science - there are actual scientists on the forum and they can say how comfortable they are with it. I will however point out that it was you that accused scientists of ‘inventing’ dark matter in order to patch up their theories, which really is a sad misrepresentation of what scientists actually do. Still, you are a member of a cult that thrives on misrepresenting anything it doesn’t control so this isn’t really surprising. Maybe the meeting halls of the Watchtower Socieity are bereft of scientists - it wouldn’t be surprising given the way you talk about them. Actual Christian churches, however, have plenty of scientists in them.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

All of what you have said to contradict me is you expressing your faith. I am not sorry I do not agree with you and will not accept the trinity.

I think you are wrong end of, you think I am wrong then systematically attack my faith. Difference between us being I love you as my neighbour you despise me because my faith is different to yours

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I despise the watchtower organisation because it deceives people, whom I love … go figure. ;)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

unless it ends up being right. We shall see :)

Incidentally a lot of the scientists you have defended will think you deceive those in your congregation ;)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

OK how about if I ask? Which area of Physics does he specialise in?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I give you Mr Charles Taze Russell: “[It is] an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A.D. 1914” - and when that didn’t pan out he had several further bites of the cherry throughout the rest of the decade. Maybe also ask your elders how many of the millions living in 1925 have never died?

And yes, I am aware your more recent leadership has attempted to … ah … ‘reinterpret’ some of your founder’s more outlandish utterings. However, I’m not the one claiming membership of an organisation that thinks it alone has the power to interpret the Bible and the signs of the times. If I were, I’d be more than a little concerned at how often it’s got those interpretations wrong.

I’m aware that many scientists are not Christians. I’m comfortable with that truth and I seek to show the value of faith in Jesus to them, as with everyone.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I will ask him next time I speak to him but I know he worked a lot on anti lock breaking systems for aircraft including concord and later on electronics for fighter aircraft including the eurofighter

---------- Post added at 17:48 ---------- Previous post was at 17:46 ----------

Since Eve convinced Adam to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge everyone has been imperfect and seeing as there have been no prophets for a very long time no one with a direct line to God to tell them when they have made a mistake

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Bit risky having every Kingdom Hall in the entire world doing the same printed study at the same time, every week, all year then, isn’t it?

A core strength of the actual Christian church is that at any one time there are a huge number of theologians studying all aspects of the faith, in dialogue with one another, challenging one another. It’s an important safeguard against heresy and unorthodoxy. Even in the worst excesses of the medieval period the Roman Catholic Church was never as centralised and controlling as your Watchtower organisation is.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

We are assigned a section of the bible to study for our midweek meeting
1st Part is a talk on the section
2nd Part is a Q and A on the section
3rd is a bible reading from it
Then we have 3 Ministry School sections examples of certain subjects and often a talk
Then we have a second on various matters varying from cong to cong
Then we have a Q and A on a book study we are going through at the moment it is on Ezekiel's prophecies

Sunday we have a half hour talk then a Q and A on the Watchtower study edition

So no I do not think it is risky

We too have a large number continually working on all aspects of the bible and so on. We have complexes all around the world working continually producing literature in 100s of languages . We have annual conventions and bi annual assemblies. We make our own movies and educational shows for all we write our own songs and this is just a small part of what the organisation does

You are funny with your bit about the Catholic Church, made my night that bit

Just as a side note once again let me point out that you attack my faith and I do not yours. Just showing my Christian nature ;)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Is pointing out flaws “attacking it” though?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I’m not Marty McFly - you aren’t going to reverse-psyche me into doing what you want. ;)

The Watchtower Society is a cult, because it claims to be a Christian church while denying whole sections of the orthodox, historic Christian faith. Those who follow it are assured they are following the pattern of life shown in scripture, but they are not. They are following the ramblings of just another 19th century millennialist nutter, who was manifestly wrong during his lifetime, and whose teachings were manifestly wrong on multiple occasions throughout the 20th century. As a Christian theologian there is simply nothing there for me to trust. There’s nothing in the Watchtower’s interpretations of the Bible that I can rely on.

But the saddest thing about The Watchtower Society for me is that it robs those it deceives of a fulfilling relationship with God through Jesus, because it denies who he is. You can never have life in all its fullness, as Jesus promised, as long as you’re trapped in the Watchtower’s lies. Lies, incidentally, which it has an enormous financial motive in sustaining, as you yourself have proved. What it’s all about really is the publication and sale of books and magazines. You have stressed the size of the publishing operation more than once. I know you didn’t intend to suggest the Watchtower is really just a big money-making wheeze, but you do rather give the game away.

---------- Post added at 18:53 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------

Oh I am absolutely attacking the Watchtower, make no mistake. Both boots, studs up. ;)

It’s engaged in deception and I wish people were freed from it.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

No I will let your reply to Russ do just that :)

We give all literature away for free. Witnesses donate what they want no plate no standing with a look at what I give, all anon. No one has been charged for a book in a long long time

on that note I will go watch some telly

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Just tried to give you an out :D

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

he will be quite proud of himself but that kind of pride is a sin ;)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Now you just sound petty….

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I guess ya right, guess I am a sinner too :)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

There doesn’t have to be a cover price for it to be a money spinner. And there doesn’t have to be a receipt book at the back of the hall for it to be a wheeze. Cults often don’t have trouble extracting cash from their followers and the money to pay for all those thousands of publishing units around the world is obviously coming from somewhere. They are taking you for a ride. The other day you said you could “put it down” as witness, or a return visit, if you were posting on here. Someone somewhere is obviously keeping tabs on your performance as a JW.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...9&d=1635624027

https://register-of-charities.charit...ancial-history

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

where does your church get its money for its upkeep ?

all the money as I have said on numerous occasions is voluntary and it funds everything. Bare in mine there are 8 million baptised publishers and most of the buildings are built by witnesses cutting a lot of costs.

You are just grabbing out at anything with your agenda to discredit us while I am more than happy to try to be a good Christian and not come back at you like for like. Your example does enough in itself

---------- Post added at 21:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:02 ----------



I choose to repohttps://thecounter.org/churches-usda-covid-19-food-boxes-boundaries-church-and-state/snd to this

That is less than £20 per baptized publisher

here is a little example of where some of that money went

https://www.fijitimes.com/churchs-re...ed-by-cyclone/

Here is another

http://www.tribune242.com/news/2017/...ane-aftermath/

and another

https://thecounter.org/churches-usda...rch-and-state/

I made sure these articles were not on JW.org as I know where you would go with that

Winesses were also involved in the clean up of 9/11 and every time our brothers and sisters suffer from a disaster we have teams ready to fly in a give aid/ It is very easy to paint a picture of how bad we are when all you have is the prejudice

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

From your links…
How very Christian - only helping members of your own Organisation, or those you can proselytise to…

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

hahahaha ok I wonder how many homes were built by other religions in the same circumstances . And bare in mind this is going on all the time

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Oh, I make no secret of it, our church building is maintained by our members. The mission societies are all paid for from donations. The hymn books, well those we had to pay for, as is the case with the vast majority of the resources we use. Not being a cult, we are free to buy resources from a wide range of different organisations. All Christian, of course; all in accordance with the basic creed that all down the ages has been a simple way of telling the difference between orthodox, historical Christian belief and cultic error.

I’m not criticising you for your voluntary funding - a whole lot of voluntary organisations are funded that way. I am simply pointing out that an organisation that only allows you to spend that money with a single network of approved suppliers, all of whom publish material asserting that organisation’s unique ability to interpret the Bible and correctly explain the end times, is at it.

Despite training for Baptist ministry I have had teachers from various denominations who gave out reading lists including authors who are Lutheran, Anglican, various shades of Pentecostal and even a couple of Catholics. One of the most useful books of my Trinity module was written by the former Pope Benedict; I was free to draw usefully from some of his work on the subject while disagreeing with some of his ideas about how churches are locally constituted by bishops (as a Baptist, I don’t have a bishop overseer as a Catholic priest would). No single organisation has had the benefit of supplying me with all my learning material. My learning is far more well rounded and solidly grounded as a result. My pet ideas and all of my denomination’s particular convictions have been challenged, and my understand of my faith strengthened.

The actual Christian church, in all its different denominations and despite its famous and sometimes highly unedifying disagreements about patterns of worship and governance, doesn’t need an approved suppliers network because no single denomination owns orthodoxy, yet all of them know what it looks like.

The Watchtower Society, on the other hand, claims it alone knows the truth and only allows you to acquire it from its own approved outlets. That, my friend, smells fishier than a fisherman in a fishmarket.

---------- Post added at 21:36 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------

Actually it’s fairly typical for Christian missions to do disaster relief work without faith-based preconditions. Here’s one example:

https://www.bmsworldmission.org/ministries/relief/

BMS is the Baptist Mission Society.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

run by donations I assume

---------- Post added at 21:41 ---------- Previous post was at 21:39 ----------

This is just one Baptist Church

Data for financial year ending 31 March 2020

Total income: £219,858
Total expenditure: £66,543

seems to be doing pretty well doesn't it ??

https://register-of-charities.charit...247/full-print

Do you get paid Chris?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Yes - full time.

We may have cross-posted. Please see my (admittedly lengthy) post above, in which I explain that volunteer funded organisations aren’t the problem, but volunteer funded organisations that only allow you to buy material from their own approved outlets, are.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Well, I’m a volunteer driver for our local C of E church’s Food Bank (I’m a "lapsed" Catholic, and do not attend Church services (except for family occasions, as my wife & children are C of E, and when I’m helping set up & broadcast/YouTube the Sunday Services for those who could not attend due to COVID restrictions, but currently for the elderly/infirm members of the congregation)), but the Rector & Church do not discriminate/prioritise by Church membership who receives the food parcels, or proselytise to those who do (much like our local Mosques & Sikh Temples).

Hope this clarifies things.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Yeah that is lovely

Thing is you have both clutched at certain aspects and I am sure your judgements on the society will not ever change no matter what I say. I found a few links to show where the money goes but that is not all we do. It is all good though I have attacked neither of you so I am fine with how it has gone

---------- Post added at 21:59 ---------- Previous post was at 21:58 ----------

let me repeat we do not buy anything it is all free

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Yes, you showed us the JW money and effort went mainly to other JWs, or to proselytise - well done, you…

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I’d quite like you to break free from a cult that has ensnared you. The Watchtower Society is a cult that, erroneously, claims it alone can interpret the Bible.

If you think that my putting the boot into an organisation that is more concerned with its own network of “baptised publishers” than your welfare is attacking you personally, well I’m sorry about that but I’m not stopping. I can only hope in time you acknowledge the distinction.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

No mate I think you need to simplify when you are being clever. I did not know what proselytise means so I googled it and it says

"convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another."

So to this point it is a no because our brothers and sisters have already made their choice so no need to change them

"advocate or promote (a belief or course of action)."

This also has to be a no because it is not advertised again only really those of us who already made the choice know about it. If we were pushing for recognition in what we did then you would see a lot more press on it

The way we preach is door to door spreading the message of the Kingdom or since Covid by letter writing spreading the same message

---------- Post added at 22:11 ---------- Previous post was at 22:09 ----------

you are not putting your boot into an organisation though as they are not here only I am. In fact you are doing exactly what Hugh say we do and you are proselytising trying to convert me

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

No, mate, you need to read your own links…

https://thecounter.org/churches-usda...rch-and-state/

This may come as a shock to you (as you didn’t know what "proselytising" meant), but going door-to-door and writing letters is proselytism, as you are trying to persuade someone to change their religious beliefs or way of living to your own.

You may find this helpful.

https://www.yourdictionary.com/proselytize

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

The Watchtower Society doesn’t have to be here for me to put the boot into them. The Watchtower Society is a cult that only lets its members read material it has directly approved and claims only it can interpret the Bible. My desire is that nobody be a member of it and that nobody think this is what being a disciple of Jesus looks like.

Real Christianity is an evangelistic faith - this should come as no surprise. It is however also driven by God’s compassion for the poor and oppressed and Christian mission societies do not typically put faith-oriented preconditions before helping those in material need. That is what Hugh pointed out: not that those ensnared in the Watchtower cult proselytise, which many faiths do, but that even when the lives of non-members are in peril, aid is conditional on engagement with cultic activities.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

you both really have no idea what it is like to be a Witness. I tell ya it is an awesome life. Really should never have engaged in this thread that is my mistake. Still I must say to be honest I have found I have a thicker skin than I thought I did. I feel I have done well in how I taken all this and how I have posted without rising to the bait. You pair not so much in my opinion

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I think you should all sacrifice a goat and hurl it's entrails at a wall to see who's right;)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Yes, but my church believes that the pancreas is the most important organ while that load of heretics down the street think it’s all about the spleen. What happens if both spleen and pancreas end up wrapped around the picture rail? Who’s right and what does it all mean?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I have nothing but respect for you Chris. I have always found you very sage, but those two words make me frown.

As I have stated on here many times I was brought up Roman Catholic, but I am now non-religious.

I have a JW Kingdom Hall, not far from me and they, as they do, call round and as I’m polite I engage with then and they leave the two standard publications. My favourite item was always “was it designed or was it luck”. Or something like that, as they failed to grasp what evolutionary theory was. They have their view on the story of Christ that may not chime with your view, but it’s their view.

But my ire with your comment is the inflection that my Christianity is better that your Christianity. We have the same god but you’re not doing it right. You’re not real.

In how many other areas in society, can that, and is that accusation often made?

That’s not “real” socialism, that’s not “real” communism, that’s not real Islam…. examples in point.

Those arguments can lead to extremism.

That very notion is the reason I’m non-religious.

This will be my first and only post in this thread.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Fair point, however I’m not appealing simply to what goes on in my own church on a Sunday morning here. I’m talking about orthodox Christianity that rests on the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, which is the refined, finally-agreed form of essential Christian belief that all Christian churches agree with. It has existed in its final form since the 4th century AD (though it reflects the teachings of the church fathers back to the first generation church) and has survived schism, reformation and all manner of conflict.

With a Catholic upbringing you may remember it; it begins “I believe in One God, the Father almighty”. Real Christianity, regardless of denomination, is in agreement with that creed. From time to time, throughout history, movements have occasionally sprung up that reject the creed. Most often they reject the Trinitarian parts, which confess that God is eternally Father, Son and Spirit, three and yet also one. Whatever disagreements different denominations have had, they have always agreed that the creed is a basis for agreement of what Christianity actually is.

I make no apology for asserting that a church that is in agreement with the creed is a Christian church, while an organisation that calls itself the only true church yet is not in agreement with the creed is, well, not.

The Watchtower Society is not a Christian organisation. Kingdom Halls are not Christian churches. Mormons are not Christians and their temples are not places of Christian worship. Unitarian churches, which historically have been the more common form of trinity-denying organisation in the UK, are not Christian churches.

You will find possibly quite surprising levels of cooperation between churches in British towns and cities these days, even amongst Protestant and Catholic, but wherever you find a “churches together” movement you will find that those churches associate on the basis of essential credal belief that necessarily excludes Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarians, Christian Scientists, Spiritualists, and any other organisation that denies those basic beliefs.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

So along the years a group of imperfect men have decided what a true Christian is? Only opinion I am bothered about in the long run is Gods. He will judge me on my heart and decide if I will live or cease to exist. The God I pray to has no intention of anyone suffering for eternity

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

So ... the opinion of a mythical super being ?
So how excatly do you know what that opinion is ?

Oh, and "no intention of anyone suffering for eternity" ?
Did your particular god not invent a hell then ?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Hell is not mentioned in the bible. Hades and Gehena are but no hell

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Denying the possibility of existence outside of God’s presence is another characteristic Watchtower teaching.

The Bible has a number of words which are all translated ‘hell’ in English, and while the English translation may lack nuance on occasion, the translation is more than adequate to convey the idea that in eternity, it is possible to exist either in God’s presence or banished from it. We typically describe these states as ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’.

Saying that the Bible never talks about hell is like saying Eskimos never talk about snow, just because they don’t have one catch-all word for it. However, the Bible absolutely does not talk about ceasing to exist, despite the ramblings of Charles Taze Russell, who the Watchtower Society regards as its founder . Where the Bible talks about death, it is always talking about separation, first the soul from the body and later, the ‘second death’ which is separation from God’s presence.

---------- Post added at 09:18 ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 ----------

Also Sheol and Tartarus.

What does the Watchtower Society claim these four words mean?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

So you are content as a REAL Christian following the man who ended Mosaic Law and bought in the laws based on love to believe the God you follow is A. Going to allow Satan to survive? and B. Damn humans to eternal pain and suffering???

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

You must have very long arms with all this patting yourself on the back…

Proverbs 27:2 :“May a stranger, and not your own mouth, praise you; may a foreigner, and not your own lips, do so.”

Matthew 23:12 "Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I am an imperfect human and make mistakes.

Well done Hugh for doing some bible reading. Something good has come from all this :)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

"We are all individuals!"

‘I’m not!"

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Follow the Gourd! No, the Shoe is the sign

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As a statement of personal faith this is commendable and should be respected as such.

However .... the elephant in the proverbial Ecclesiastical room is the contradiction of New Testament teaching (as I understand it) with the degree of wealth many professed Christians (or Muslims, etc) retain and more importantly see no problem in doing so.

This comes from a chocolate box approach in adhering to the religious texts. I follow the tenets I like or that will not compromise my lifestyle and quietly ignore those that I do not like. You have the patently ridiculous situation where the head of the state church has a personal wealth measured in the hundreds of millions. You also have people like Rees-Mogg regular spouting Christian homilies while sitting on a net worth ~£100 million and actively offshoring as much as he can to avoid paying tax. These are a couple of high profile examples but there are many more.

To me, this does not seem consistent with the broad message of the New Testament. Some of the more Evangelical Christian sects try and ameliorate this by the requirement to tithe part of your income but as to whether these monies go directly to the needy is open to debate.

TL;DR extreme wealth seems incompatible with New Testament Christian teaching unless I missed the parable where Jesus helps the rich man exploit the poor and maximise his wealth in offshore investment vehicles :)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I'm an atheist. I prefer to look for the kindness and generosity in people whatever their religion or faith or beliefs.Religion is and was just a way to explain the world of the ancients and to try and bring some sense of order in chaos.If it comforts you good.However there are those who use religion to have dominion over others.Not got time for that.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I'm with you Maggy.

I have never judged anyone by what, if any, faith they follow. As far as I can see none of the religions I have come into contact with are without faults and their follows should be more concerned with sorting out their own house before criticising other peoples choices.

I believe that a person should be judged by the footprints they leave in the world and other's lives not by the hoard of possessions they leave behind.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

But surely by leaving behind a "hoard of possessions" they have arguably not left enough "footprints in other's lives"? One precludes the other when the size of the "hoard" is considerable.