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papa smurf 02-11-2021 08:44
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36099686)
All too little, too late. We needed the action 30 years ago.
Yes we should have stopped David Attenborough clocking up millions of air miles on his quest to lecture us on our lifestyles and the state of the planet he was destroying.

nomadking 02-11-2021 08:58
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36099686)
All too little, too late. We needed the action 30 years ago.
Was that around the time they were all getting worked up about acid rain, and then found it was largely a product of natural sources and not the serious problem it was being made out to be.
Eg it was claimed that in 1o years time(from the date of the claim) that half of New York State's trees would be destroyed by Acid Rain. Guess what, it didn't happen, and as the 10-year study found most of any damage that did happen, was from natural sources.

Damien 02-11-2021 09:10
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
The fact they continue to study these things and adjust their findings rather than dogmatically insisting their initial findings were correct should give you more faith in climate science rather than less.

The only people whose position on climate change has never adjusted is the 'sceptics and that's because their position isn't based on science but politics.

nomadking 02-11-2021 09:43
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36099692)
The fact they continue to study these things and adjust their findings rather than dogmatically insisting their initial findings were correct should give you more faith in climate science rather than less.

The only people whose position on climate change has never adjusted is the 'sceptics and that's because their position isn't based on science but politics.
So the science doesn't show that the climate has always changed, all by itself. Eg A large chunk of North America(including Manhattan Island) was well and truly buried under an ice sheet, a matter of thousands of years ago. How could that be, if Man and the Industrial Age were supposed to be responsible. That is Science, not politics.
Link

Quote:
Laurentide Ice Sheet, principal glacial cover of North America during the Pleistocene Epoch (about 2,600,000 to 11,700 years ago). At its maximum extent it spread as far south as latitude 37° N and covered an area of more than 13,000,000 square km (5,000,000 square miles). In some areas its thickness reached 2,400–3,000 m (8,000–10,000 feet) or more.
Link
Quote:
In New York, the ice that covered Manhattan was about 2,000 feet high before it began to melt in about 16,000 BC. The ice in the area disappeared around 10,000 BC. The ground in the New York area has since risen by more than 150 ft because of the removal of the enormous weight of the melted ice.[10]
Changing your claims to fit what actually happens, is politics and not science.

1andrew1 02-11-2021 10:00
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36099693)
So the science doesn't show that the climate has always changed, all by itself.
Why do you write these kind of questions Nomad?

You know
a) It does
b) No one is saying it hasn't and
c) That the debate is about the rate of change although this debate has now been pretty much won with only money impeding progress.

nomadking 02-11-2021 10:23
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36099694)
Why do you write these kind of questions Nomad?

You know
a) It does
b) No one is saying it hasn't and
c) That the debate is about the rate of change although this debate has now been pretty much won with only money impeding progress.
And where is the science that shows that there haven't been rapid changes in the past? Just because there are particular start and end points, doesn't meant the transition was even and didn't mostly happen at the end point.
Doesn't mean nothing should be done, just that the drastic measures being pushed, won't work in any way. If people were to truly want to scale things back, then all sorts of trivial objects need to be banned(eg make-up and jewellery) and banned decades ago.

An example of the hypocrisy was in the TV programme on ITV about eco-homes last night(Mon 1st Nov). A couple decided, not for eco reasons, to switch the house layout. They moved the bedrooms to the ground floor with the living area upstairs, just so they had a better view. That used resources and energy with no valid purpose.

TheDaddy 02-11-2021 10:32
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36099691)
Was that around the time they were all getting worked up about acid rain, and then found it was largely a product of natural sources and not the serious problem it was being made out to be.
Eg it was claimed that in 1o years time(from the date of the claim) that half of New York State's trees would be destroyed by Acid Rain. Guess what, it didn't happen, and as the 10-year study found most of any damage that did happen, was from natural sources.
And round about the same time the hole in the ozone layer was found, we changed our ways and now 35 years later the hole is closed all but, blimey, fancy getting worked up by cfcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36099692)
The fact they continue to study these things and adjust their findings rather than dogmatically insisting their initial findings were correct should give you more faith in climate science rather than less.

The only people whose position on climate change has never adjusted is the 'sceptics and that's because their position isn't based on science but politics.
Yes remember the hullabaloo when global warming became climate change, how the facts had been changed to suit an agenda blah blah :sleep:

Damien 02-11-2021 11:01
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36099693)
So the science doesn't show that the climate has always changed, all by itself. Eg A large chunk of North America(including Manhattan Island) was well and truly buried under an ice sheet, a matter of thousands of years ago. How could that be, if Man and the Industrial Age were supposed to be responsible. That is Science, not politics.
Previous periods of climate change happened over geological ages, not human generations. The speed of change is what we're worried about, if the climate was changing naturally it would be imperceptible to civilisation because it would happen over thousands of years rather than decades.

There have been occasions when it moved much faster than that, similar to the speeds now, but that was the result of a dramatic change. One of them was the event that killed off the dinosaurs. There was another event hundreds of millions of years before as well with volcanic explosions across a younger, more volatile, earth being the leading theory as to the cause.

These were, geologically speaking, 'sudden' events caused by some incident that dramatically changed the climate. We're in another event now but there hasn't been a huge incident, there has just been us.

OLD BOY 02-11-2021 14:15
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36099686)
All too little, too late. We needed the action 30 years ago.
Well not much we can do about that, eh? So should we even bother?

Of course we should. Best to look to what we can do rather than what we could have done. The latter is totally pointless.

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36099692)
The fact they continue to study these things and adjust their findings rather than dogmatically insisting their initial findings were correct should give you more faith in climate science rather than less.

.
Well, it doesn’t. Scientists tend to prat out any old nonsense these days without the scrutiny that these things once had. The number of times they have come out with stuff they’ve later had to retract, such as ‘we’re going into an ice age’ and ‘don’t eat butter, it’s bad for you’, etc, etc, it’s no wonder people are studying these pronouncements more carefully.

Imagine if, after spending trillions of pounds on reducing carbon they find that the temperature keeps on increasing because warming is down to other factors. I suppose we’d never get to find out because the truth will be hidden due to the fact that it is a major embarrassment for politicians everywhere.

---------- Post added at 14:15 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36099692)

The only people whose position on climate change has never adjusted is the 'sceptics and that's because their position isn't based on science but politics.
That’s not a fair comment. Many people, including myself, became sceptical due to a number of instances where the scientists deliberately set out to mislead (eg the hockey stick graph, the temperature reading manipulations, etc).

We do not know for sure whether we are still experiencing a natural warming phenomenon due to variations in the distance of the Earth from the sun, recovery from the mini-ice age which may have been put back by industrial pollution, etc. It still seems pretty remarkable that only 0.04% of the atmosphere has absorbed carbon despite the incredible volume of emissions for which we are responsible, and it is not lost on sceptics that scientists prefer to record any increase as ppm - parts per million - to big up the figures.

I am happy to go along with all this now because I am anti-pollution, but I still remain to be convinced about carbon being the cause of the warming problem.

I am happy to be convinced otherwise, but I have not heard any convincing arguments to persuade me otherwise. My scepticism has nothing at all to do with the politics - it is all about the science.

Pierre 02-11-2021 14:29
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
We were at 1min to mid-night 40yrs ago, I suspect in another 40yrs we’ll still be at 1min to mid-night, and Greta will still be knocking about on her soapbox

Hugh 02-11-2021 14:51
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36099723)
Well not much we can do about that, eh? So should we even bother?

Of course we should. Best to look to what we can do rather than what we could have done. The latter is totally pointless.

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------

 Well, it doesn’t. Scientists tend to prat out any old nonsense these days without the scrutiny that these things once had. The number of times they have come out with stuff they’ve later had to retract, such as ‘we’re going into an ice age’ and ‘don’t eat butter, it’s bad for you’, etc, etc, it’s no wonder people are studying these pronouncements more carefully.

Imagine if, after spending trillions of pounds on reducing carbon they find that the temperature keeps on increasing because warming is down to other factors. I suppose we’d never get to find out because the truth will be hidden due to the fact that it is a major embarrassment for politicians everywhere.

---------- Post added at 14:15 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------



That’s not a fair comment. Many people, including myself, became sceptical due to a number of instances where the scientists deliberately set out to mislead (eg the hockey stick graph, the temperature reading manipulations, etc).

We do not know for sure whether we are still experiencing a natural warming phenomenon due to variations in the distance of the Earth from the sun, recovery from the mini-ice age which may have been put back by industrial pollution, etc. It still seems pretty remarkable that only 0.04% of the atmosphere has absorbed carbon despite the incredible volume of emissions for which we are responsible, and it is not lost on sceptics that scientists prefer to record any increase as ppm - parts per million - to big up the figures.

I am happy to go along with all this now because I am anti-pollution, but I still remain to be convinced about carbon being the cause of the warming problem.

I am happy to be convinced otherwise, but I have not heard any convincing arguments to persuade me otherwise. My scepticism has nothing at all to do with the politics - it is all about the science.
You do talk round things - science papers are peer-reviewed and challenged all the time.

The science changes because things are challenged, and more things are discovered/learnt about the matter in hand - it's how scientific progress occurs, and why we still don't have valve radios; people didn't accept the status quo.

---------- Post added at 14:51 ---------- Previous post was at 14:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36099731)
We were at 1min to mid-night 40yrs ago, I suspect in another 40yrs we’ll still be at 1min to mid-night, and Greta will still be knocking about on her soapbox
And if not, it will be our childrens and grandchildrens' problem, so why should we care*?

The one minute to midnight 40 years ago was about nuclear war (and actually, it was 7 minutes to midnight), but don't let facts spoil your diatribe...

(*for the avoidance of any doubt, the <sarcasm> mode was on...)

nomadking 02-11-2021 15:57
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36099699)
And round about the same time the hole in the ozone layer was found, we changed our ways and now 35 years later the hole is closed all but, blimey, fancy getting worked up by cfcs



Yes remember the hullabaloo when global warming became climate change, how the facts had been changed to suit an agenda blah blah :sleep:
Closed?
Quote:
The hole in the ozone layer that develops annually is “rather larger than usual” and is currently bigger than Antartica, say the scientists responsible for monitoring it.
Researchers from the Copernicus Atmosphere Monitoring Service say that this year’s hole is growing quickly and is larger than 75% of ozone holes at this stage in the season since 1979.

Chris 02-11-2021 16:16
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36099741)
Possibly due to a massive leak of CFC that was traced to industrial processes in Eastern China a couple of years ago.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48353341

The ozone hole is projected to be fully closed over high northern latitudes in the next 10 years, and over Antarctica by the 2060s. TheDaddy's point still absolutely stands however, and the reverse in ozone depletion rates is absolutely attributable to the rare incidence of rapid, international co-operation that led to the CFC ban in the late 1980s.

Your refusal to understand and accept the scientific process that has led to our present understanding of catastrophic, anthropogenic climate change is disappointing, if unsurprising. I wish you would devote some of the energy you devote to searching up tangentially relevant links, to improving your understanding of nuance in argument and the scientific method in general.

jonbxx 02-11-2021 16:39
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36099723)
Well not much we can do about that, eh? So should we even bother?

Of course we should. Best to look to what we can do rather than what we could have done. The latter is totally pointless.

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------

 Well, it doesn’t. Scientists tend to prat out any old nonsense these days without the scrutiny that these things once had. The number of times they have come out with stuff they’ve later had to retract, such as ‘we’re going into an ice age’ and ‘don’t eat butter, it’s bad for you’, etc, etc, it’s no wonder people are studying these pronouncements more carefully.

Imagine if, after spending trillions of pounds on reducing carbon they find that the temperature keeps on increasing because warming is down to other factors. I suppose we’d never get to find out because the truth will be hidden due to the fact that it is a major embarrassment for politicians everywhere.

---------- Post added at 14:15 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------



That’s not a fair comment. Many people, including myself, became sceptical due to a number of instances where the scientists deliberately set out to mislead (eg the hockey stick graph, the temperature reading manipulations, etc).

We do not know for sure whether we are still experiencing a natural warming phenomenon due to variations in the distance of the Earth from the sun, recovery from the mini-ice age which may have been put back by industrial pollution, etc. It still seems pretty remarkable that only 0.04% of the atmosphere has absorbed carbon despite the incredible volume of emissions for which we are responsible, and it is not lost on sceptics that scientists prefer to record any increase as ppm - parts per million - to big up the figures.

I am happy to go along with all this now because I am anti-pollution, but I still remain to be convinced about carbon being the cause of the warming problem.

I am happy to be convinced otherwise, but I have not heard any convincing arguments to persuade me otherwise. My scepticism has nothing at all to do with the politics - it is all about the science.
Being guided by the science is a fair approach. There are some basic 'yes' or 'no' questions from science that go back to the 19th century that might help here;
  • Does solar heating of the earth surface cause radiation of long wavelength infra red light? - yes
  • Is this light absorbed by the atmosphere or escape in to space? - some is absorbed by the atmosphere, some escapes in to space
  • What molecules in the atmosphere absorb this light? - water, carbon dioxide, methane and ozone
  • What happens when this light is absorbed? - it is re-radiated in all directions, including back to the surface
  • Are these molecules effectively global insulation? - yes, the Earth should have an average surface temperature of -18°C
  • Is it reasonable to expect the concentration of molecules that form this insulation will have an effect on the insulation effect - yes

I don't think the above points are too controversial and we have had getting on for 200 years of science to prove these points wrong so far

There have been a lot of ideas on what cause climate change if it is not man made, including volcanoes and solar radiation changes. How can we mitigate these natural changes to prevent a global increase in temperature? Would lowering the insulation due to what we can control, namely carbon dioxide and methane do the job? Global engineering for the win!

papa smurf 02-11-2021 16:47
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36099743)
Being guided by the science is a fair approach. There are some basic 'yes' or 'no' questions from science that go back to the 19th century that might help here;
  • Does solar heating of the earth surface cause radiation of long wavelength infra red light? - yes
  • Is this light absorbed by the atmosphere or escape in to space? - some is absorbed by the atmosphere, some escapes in to space
  • What molecules in the atmosphere absorb this light? - water, carbon dioxide, methane and ozone
  • What happens when this light is absorbed? - it is re-radiated in all directions, including back to the surface
  • Are these molecules effectively global insulation? - yes, the Earth should have an average surface temperature of -18°C
  • Is it reasonable to expect the concentration of molecules that form this insulation will have an effect on the insulation effect - yes

I don't think the above points are too controversial and we have had getting on for 200 years of science to prove these points wrong so far

There have been a lot of ideas on what cause climate change if it is not man made, including volcanoes and solar radiation changes. How can we mitigate these natural changes to prevent a global increase in temperature? Would lowering the insulation due to what we can control, namely carbon dioxide and methane do the job? Global engineering for the win!
so if we stop breathing and farting :shrug:

Pierre 02-11-2021 16:48
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36099735)
The one minute to midnight 40 years ago was about nuclear war (and actually, it was 7 minutes to midnight), but don't let facts spoil your diatribe...
your correcting yourself there, as I was referencing Boris's speech and simply stating that we were told pretty much the same thing decades ago (I wasn't referring to nuclear armageddon) so don't let your personal bias spoil my diatribe.

Quote:
And if not, it will be our childrens and grandchildrens' problem, so why should we care
I care, but my point, which you must have heard as it whistled over your head..... is that we've heard it all before, many, many ,many times.

and the end hasn't come. So all they do ratchet up the extreme rhetoric.

I'm not a climate change sceptic, how can you be ? Climate changes that's a fact. What I am is a politician and (some) scientists sceptic. As their track record isn't great.

Here's some of their greatest hits.

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-...c-predictions/

Has no one ever heard of the boy that cried wolf?

I'm all for a sensible non-sensationalist/ extremist debate on the future and what we can do and what technologies we can produce. As the debate is always around - drive less, fly less, eat less, buy less, build less - we are very resourceful and inventive mammal and I'm sure we'll work out solutions to problems.

We're heading in the right direction, but I don't agree we have to race there, or set arbitrary dates to reach certain targets.

We need to build several new nuclear plants, lets work on reducing the cost of those. Let's wait until the technology of air-source heat pumps is mature and we know they're going to work.

Let's invest in tidal power, the most overlooked renewable there is. Criminally for this island. As long as the Moon and Earth dance with each other we have a predictable power source. Invest in it. I'd rather have a tidal power plant than HS2.

This circus in Glasgow is virtue signaling of the most repulsive type, I actually agree with Greta it's all talk and no real action. Action on things that will really make a difference. Not penalising normal people for wanting to live their lives.

Caring about Climate change is a privileged position, for those that can afford to.

OLD BOY 02-11-2021 16:49
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36099706)
Previous periods of climate change happened over geological ages, not human generations. The speed of change is what we're worried about, if the climate was changing naturally it would be imperceptible to civilisation because it would happen over thousands of years rather than decades.

There have been occasions when it moved much faster than that, similar to the speeds now, but that was the result of a dramatic change. One of them was the event that killed off the dinosaurs. There was another event hundreds of millions of years before as well with volcanic explosions across a younger, more volatile, earth being the leading theory as to the cause.

These were, geologically speaking, 'sudden' events caused by some incident that dramatically changed the climate. We're in another event now but there hasn't been a huge incident, there has just been us.
The mini-ice age of the 1600s was pretty drastic, don’t you think?

1andrew1 02-11-2021 16:56
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36099748)
The mini-ice age of the 1600s was pretty drastic, don’t you think?
Not sure that ice-skating on The Thames is equivalent to dinosaurs becoming extinct. ;)

OLD BOY 02-11-2021 16:59
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36099743)
Being guided by the science is a fair approach. There are some basic 'yes' or 'no' questions from science that go back to the 19th century that might help here;
  • Does solar heating of the earth surface cause radiation of long wavelength infra red light? - yes
  • Is this light absorbed by the atmosphere or escape in to space? - some is absorbed by the atmosphere, some escapes in to space
  • What molecules in the atmosphere absorb this light? - water, carbon dioxide, methane and ozone
  • What happens when this light is absorbed? - it is re-radiated in all directions, including back to the surface
  • Are these molecules effectively global insulation? - yes, the Earth should have an average surface temperature of -18°C
  • Is it reasonable to expect the concentration of molecules that form this insulation will have an effect on the insulation effect - yes

I don't think the above points are too controversial and we have had getting on for 200 years of science to prove these points wrong so far

There have been a lot of ideas on what cause climate change if it is not man made, including volcanoes and solar radiation changes. How can we mitigate these natural changes to prevent a global increase in temperature? Would lowering the insulation due to what we can control, namely carbon dioxide and methane do the job? Global engineering for the win!
It’s not like a thermostat! If we start interfering to this extent with natural processes, we could trigger the ice age that was predicted in the 1960s.

Mad Max 02-11-2021 17:05
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Does anyone really believe things will change when the likes of Russia, India, and China seem to not give a shit about climate change?

OLD BOY 02-11-2021 17:21
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36099752)
Not sure that ice-skating on The Thames is equivalent to dinosaurs becoming extinct. ;)
No, but it’s relevant to the climate changes currently being experienced.

I wasn’t talking about dinosaurs. There’s no future in dinosaurs.

---------- Post added at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36099754)
Does anyone really believe things will change when the likes of Russia, India, and China seem to not give a shit about climate change?
Well, you hit on an important point, because what the UK can do on it’s own makes diddly squat difference if you accept the global warming is due to carbon emissions.

Carth 02-11-2021 19:12
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
I've decided to play the game, as they do.

I declare, and promise, that by 2050 I will no longer use any type of power for heating, lighting and cooking. I will no longer leave electrical appliances plugged in overnight, and will no longer use transport of any mode to travel around. I will also no longer eat meat, fish, vegetables or drink the water that will (by then) probably be in short supply.

There, I think that's covered it . . go me :D

pip08456 02-11-2021 19:47
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Although I hate to agree with the French, this is sound policy IMHO. We should be doing the same.

Quote:
In a 2030 roadmap for the French economy presented earlier this month, President Emmanuel Macron proposed billions of euros of support for electric vehicles, the nuclear industry and green hydrogen - produced with nuclear - but made little mention of renewable energy. read more

France produces about 75% of its power in nuclear plants, which means its electricity output has among the lowest carbon emissions per capita of any developed country. However, it lags far behind Germany and other European nations in wind and solar investment.
Link

papa smurf 02-11-2021 20:07
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
‘Eat fewer croissants!’ France’s eco minister urges breakfast change in climate fight

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...nge-COP26-news

weetabix it is then

Mad Max 02-11-2021 20:13
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36099780)
‘Eat fewer croissants!’ France’s eco minister urges breakfast change in climate fight

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...nge-COP26-news

weetabix it is then
That'll just make you fart more.

papa smurf 02-11-2021 20:18
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36099781)
That'll just make you fart more.
I'm doing this for the planet not for the sweet smell;)

TheDaddy 02-11-2021 20:47
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36099782)
I'm doing this for the planet not for the sweet smell;)
We've just agreed to decrease our methane levels, not increase them

1andrew1 02-11-2021 20:51
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36099762)
Well, you hit on an important point, because what the UK can do on it’s own makes diddly squat difference if you accept the global warming is due to carbon emissions.
That's the whole reasoning behind COP 26 - to get every country on board.

Chris 02-11-2021 22:01
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36099778)
Although I hate to agree with the French, this is sound policy IMHO. We should be doing the same.



Link
We’re in no position to go big for nuclear now. We dithered for too long and we lost the expertise. The ones now in the planning/building are dependent on foreign expertise and investment and are costing us an arm and a leg as a result.

Rolls Royce is working on a new modular mini-reactor system that will be easier to deploy on sites in the UK (I say UK, but at present only the UK government has the backbone to stand up against the eco-loons which means it is effectively England - the devolved administrations in Wales and Scotland don’t control energy policy but they do have the power to call in planning requests, and have threatened to do so for any proposed new nuclear).

The waste products of nuclear fission are problematic so while it’s better than dumping CO2 in the atmosphere it’s less responsible than generating cleaner electricity from wind, tides or solar. It has a role to play in base load, at least until we crack energy storage. I suspect we won’t crack large-scale energy storage before the present generation of gas fired power stations become life-expired.

Paul 02-11-2021 22:10
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
I thought fossil fuels were supposed to be running out anyway.
I remember all the doom and gloom telling us we only had about another 50-70 years worth (and that was about 20 years ago).

So no need to bother about reducing them at all, just keep going and we'll run out anyway, job done. :D

Chris 02-11-2021 22:22
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36099792)
I thought fossil fuels were supposed to be running out anyway.
I remember all the doom and gloom telling us we only had about another 50-70 years worth (and that was about 20 years ago).

So no need to bother about reducing them at all, just keep going and we'll run out anyway, job done. :D
It was a fairly unsophisticated piece of messaging from the environmentalists of the time.

There really only were about 40 years of oil left in the 1980s, based on known recoverable reserves and rate of consumption. The messaging did get a bit more nuanced eventually - you might have heard the phrase “peak oil” doing the rounds about 15 years ago, with the claim that from that point on oil would get so hard to extract that it would be impossible to meet demand even if the reserves were there.

In reality all we have done during the 20th century is extract the easy oil. There’s really no shortage of it, because as it is found in ever more challenging places, our ability to get at it improves. As we shift to decarbonise the economy there should come a point where consumption drops off a cliff. I think it’s likely we aren’t going to run out of oil for the foreseeable future.

Damien 02-11-2021 22:25
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
They keep finding oil fields and more efficient ways to extract it IIRC. It will still run out eventually though, although we'll probably find cheaper ways to generate the same amount of energy before it does.

1andrew1 02-11-2021 22:29
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36099790)
(I say UK, but at present only the UK government has the backbone to stand up against the eco-loons which means it is effectively England - the devolved administrations in Wales and Scotland don’t control energy policy but they do have the power to call in planning requests, and have threatened to do so for any proposed new nuclear).
You might be correct for Scotland but the Welsh government is very pro-nuclear. The Welsh government is keen for the Trawsfynydd project to happen and has established a site company. The Rolls-Royce-led consortium has said that Wales in particular holds significant potential for small modular reactors and has cited Trawsfynydd and Anglesey as potential locations.

Chris 02-11-2021 22:49
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36099796)
You might be correct for Scotland but the Welsh government is very pro-nuclear. The Welsh government is keen for the Trawsfynydd project to happen and has established a site company. The Rolls-Royce-led consortium has said that Wales in particular holds significant potential for small modular reactors and has cited Trawsfynydd and Anglesey as potential locations.
I am relieved to stand corrected :tu:

Virtue signalling is a particular problem in Scottish politics, especially when it’s an opportunity to stand in opposition to the evil Toaries.

Pierre 03-11-2021 08:10
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36099794)
It was a fairly unsophisticated piece of messaging from the environmentalists of the time.

There really only were about 40 years of oil left in the 1980s, based on known recoverable reserves and rate of consumption. The messaging did get a bit more nuanced eventually - you might have heard the phrase “peak oil” doing the rounds about 15 years ago, with the claim that from that point on oil would get so hard to extract that it would be impossible to meet demand even if the reserves were there.

In reality all we have done during the 20th century is extract the easy oil. There’s really no shortage of it, because as it is found in ever more challenging places, our ability to get at it improves. As we shift to decarbonise the economy there should come a point where consumption drops off a cliff. I think it’s likely we aren’t going to run out of oil for the foreseeable future.
Yes, I wouldn’t dump the BP & Shell shares just yet. This country will look like Cuba in 30/40 years with people still running petrol/diesel motors long after they’ve stopped making them.

1andrew1 03-11-2021 08:51
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36099810)
Yes, I wouldn’t dump the BP & Shell shares just yet. This country will look like Cuba in 30/40 years with people still running petrol/diesel motors long after they’ve stopped making them.
That probably depends on fuel prices and availability of petrol and diesel. If road pricing is introduced as anticipated then diesel and petrol cars could be expensive to run.

Carth 03-11-2021 09:15
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36099811)
That probably depends on fuel prices and availability of petrol and diesel. If road pricing is introduced as anticipated then diesel and petrol cars could be expensive to run.
Nah, unless the Govt. tax it to the maximum it'll be a good price.
Look at around a year ago when nobody was buying it . . they were almost giving it away ;)

jonbxx 03-11-2021 09:54
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36099753)
It’s not like a thermostat! If we start interfering to this extent with natural processes, we could trigger the ice age that was predicted in the 1960s.
But do you agree or disagree on the science I listed;
  • Does solar heating of the earth surface cause radiation of long wavelength infra red light?
  • Is this light absorbed by the atmosphere or escape in to space? - some is absorbed by the atmosphere, some escapes in to space
  • What molecules in the atmosphere absorb this light? - water, carbon dioxide, methane and ozone
  • What happens when this light is absorbed? - it is re-radiated in all directions, including back to the surface
  • Are these molecules effectively global insulation? - yes, the Earth should have an average surface temperature of -18°C
  • Is it reasonable to expect the concentration of molecules that form this insulation will have an effect on the insulation effect - yes

If atmospheric greenhouse gasses are not the cause of the historical rise in global temperature, acknowledging that correlation and causation are not always linked, what else could be causing the global temperature rise?

1andrew1 03-11-2021 10:06
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36099812)
Nah, unless the Govt. tax it to the maximum it'll be a good price.
Look at around a year ago when nobody was buying it . . they were almost giving it away ;)
Once you've got a lot of second hand EVs available at good prices then it will be far cheaper to drive one than petrol vehicles, both in fuel costs and maintenance. And as new EVs become mainstream, their prices will reduce. Government's taxation will shift from fuel towards road pricing but it is unlikely to reduce tax on petrol and diesel.

Carth 03-11-2021 10:18
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36099818)
Once you've got a lot of second hand EVs available at good prices then it will be far cheaper to drive one than petrol vehicles, both in fuel costs and maintenance. And as new EVs become mainstream, their prices will reduce. Government's taxation will shift from fuel towards road pricing but it is unlikely to reduce tax on petrol and diesel.
How long is the average battery life on an EV?
Can batteries be replaced on an EV?
What do we do with the old EV batteries?

1andrew1 03-11-2021 10:22
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36099821)
How long is the average battery life on an EV?
Can batteries be replaced on an EV?
What do we do with the old EV batteries?
They can be replaced. Don't know what we do with EV batteries but rightly or wrongly, it's the direction we're going.
Importantly costs and performance will improve as it becomes mainstream.
At that stage the government is likely to introduce road tax.

Chris 03-11-2021 10:38
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36099821)
How long is the average battery life on an EV?
Can batteries be replaced on an EV?
What do we do with the old EV batteries?
Depends on the battery but range is likely to be a problem after 10 years.
Yes, the battery can be replaced.
They can be recycled although it’s a difficult process.
Google is your friend.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779

papa smurf 03-11-2021 11:40
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36099821)
How long is the average battery life on an EV?
Can batteries be replaced on an EV?
What do we do with the old EV batteries?
Chuck em in the sea like we do with everything we don't want.

---------- Post added at 11:40 ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 ----------

And what does Greta say

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...at-cop26-video

Pierre 03-11-2021 11:47
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36099822)
They can be replaced. Don't know what we do with EV batteries but rightly or wrongly, it's the direction we're going.
Importantly costs and performance will improve as it becomes mainstream.
At that stage the government is likely to introduce road tax.
Battery life, depending on the make/ model/ use etc is projected to be anywhere between 185,000 - 500,000 miles.

Cost of replacing a battery can be anywhere between £9K - 20K

So suddenly those cheap second hand EV's don't look so attractive.

That said, in the great scheme of things, it's not a million miles away from the kind of decisions you have to make with the economic life of liquid fuelled cars.

OLD BOY 03-11-2021 11:48
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36099772)
I've decided to play the game, as they do.

I declare, and promise, that by 2050 I will no longer use any type of power for heating, lighting and cooking. I will no longer leave electrical appliances plugged in overnight, and will no longer use transport of any mode to travel around. I will also no longer eat meat, fish, vegetables or drink the water that will (by then) probably be in short supply.

There, I think that's covered it . . go me :D
Do you not expect to be around in 2050, Carth?

Chris 03-11-2021 11:58
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36099829)
Battery life, depending on the make/ model/ use etc is projected to be anywhere between 185,000 - 500,000 miles.

Cost of replacing a battery can be anywhere between £9K - 20K

So suddenly those cheap second hand EV's don't look so attractive.

That said, in the great scheme of things, it's not a million miles away from the kind of decisions you have to make with the economic life of liquid fuelled cars.
EVs are developing so rapidly I suspect their second hand value will plummet. If I were in the market for one now I think I’d be looking for a lease of some sort.

1andrew1 03-11-2021 12:21
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36099832)
EVs are developing so rapidly I suspect their second hand value will plummet. If I were in the market for one now I think I’d be looking for a lease of some sort.
I think that's the way most new cars are sold these days. EVs are now comparable on leases cost-wise but have lower running costs.

Pierre 03-11-2021 12:32
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36099747)
your correcting yourself there, as I was referencing Boris's speech and simply stating that we were told pretty much the same thing decades ago (I wasn't referring to nuclear armageddon) so don't let your personal bias spoil my diatribe.



I care, but my point, which you must have heard as it whistled over your head..... is that we've heard it all before, many, many ,many times.

and the end hasn't come. So all they do ratchet up the extreme rhetoric.

I'm not a climate change sceptic, how can you be ? Climate changes that's a fact. What I am is a politician and (some) scientists sceptic. As their track record isn't great.

Here's some of their greatest hits.

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-...c-predictions/

Has no one ever heard of the boy that cried wolf?

I'm all for a sensible non-sensationalist/ extremist debate on the future and what we can do and what technologies we can produce. As the debate is always around - drive less, fly less, eat less, buy less, build less - we are very resourceful and inventive mammal and I'm sure we'll work out solutions to problems.

We're heading in the right direction, but I don't agree we have to race there, or set arbitrary dates to reach certain targets.

We need to build several new nuclear plants, lets work on reducing the cost of those. Let's wait until the technology of air-source heat pumps is mature and we know they're going to work.

Let's invest in tidal power, the most overlooked renewable there is. Criminally for this island. As long as the Moon and Earth dance with each other we have a predictable power source. Invest in it. I'd rather have a tidal power plant than HS2.

This circus in Glasgow is virtue signaling of the most repulsive type, I actually agree with Greta it's all talk and no real action. Action on things that will really make a difference. Not penalising normal people for wanting to live their lives.

Caring about Climate change is a privileged position, for those that can afford to.
All of the climate change hysteria should be balanced out with input from others.

Note: this guy is not a climate change sceptic.

https://www.lomborg.com/

Carth 03-11-2021 12:33
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36099830)
Do you not expect to be around in 2050, Carth?
I'd be 96 if I got there, probably wouldn't have a clue what was going on anyway ;)

Hom3r 03-11-2021 12:36
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
1 Attachment(s)
I'm not surprised the media has ignored this statement made by the late David Bellamy

Pierre 03-11-2021 12:46
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36099836)
I think that's the way most new cars are sold these days. EVs are now comparable on leases cost-wise but have lower running costs.
The issue with electric cars is that they are only zero emission when you're driving them* conversely liquid fuelled cars only emit when you're driving them.


*Unless the charging grid is 100% totally fossil fuel free.

1andrew1 03-11-2021 13:15
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36099844)
The issue with electric cars is that they are only zero emission when you're driving them* conversely liquid fuelled cars only emit when you're driving them.


*Unless the charging grid is 100% totally fossil fuel free.
Both types of vehicle create green house gases in manufacture though.

Chris 03-11-2021 13:26
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36099844)
The issue with electric cars is that they are only zero emission when you're driving them* conversely liquid fuelled cars only emit when you're driving them.


*Unless the charging grid is 100% totally fossil fuel free.
But as a step towards zero emissions, zero emission at tailpipe is a very worthwhile objective. Atmospheric CO2 isn’t the only problem caused by road traffic. Nitrogen oxides in our towns and cities, especially around urban motorways, are an increasing problem. EVs immediately deal with that localised pollution.

Furthermore, they concentrate the pollution caused by producing their fuel into fewer, more controlled locations - at the power stations, where it can then be more easily remedied by implementing carbon capture during the plant’s lifetime, and eventually switching off the power station in favour of green alternatives.

Paul 03-11-2021 18:30
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36099827)
And what does Greta say
Who cares what that annoying little **** says. :sleep:

EV may be good for short term journeys, and you can get back home to recharge, but their limited range is still a problem for long journeys.

Hybrids seem a better option atm.

1andrew1 09-11-2021 13:28
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Terrible look for the Green Party here.

Quote:
Green council leader flew from Gatwick to Glasgow to protest against climate change at Cop26

Councillor Phelim Mac Cafferty, leader of Brighton and Hove City Council's (BHCC) Green group, took the 80-minute flight from Gatwick on the same day he criticised the Government for a lack of action over climate change.

After completing the 460-mile journey, Cllr Mac Cafferty made a speech on cutting carbon emissions and appeared at a protest march, led by Greta Thunberg, calling for world leaders to stop temperatures rising.

The leader of the Green Party which controls the Sussex council, who co-chairs BHCC carbon neutral working group, has now unreservedly apologised, saying he had been worried his train might be cancelled.

He told The Argus: "In the Friday evening just gone, I took a flight from London to Glasgow to attend COP26 where I had been invited to represent the city at a presentation of the Glasgow Declaration on Saturday morning.

"This decision to fly was a major failure of my judgement which goes against my political group's pledges and principles and I unreservedly apologise."
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...cid=entnewsntp

Chris 09-11-2021 14:42
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100545)
Terrible look for the Green Party here.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...cid=entnewsntp
Personally, I’d have had no qualms about flying to Glasgow from Brighton. It’s a long way and if business is time sensitive, trying to arrive and depart just-in-time by train is a risk.

His problem, so far as I’m concerned, is not his choice of the best mode of travel for the occasion, but that his movement generally has eschewed rational engagement with the realities of the world in which we live, in favour of virtue signalling.

Those who live by the virtue signal, will die by the virtue signal, as a very wise man might almost have said.

1andrew1 09-11-2021 14:54
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36100556)
Personally, I’d have had no qualms about flying to Glasgow from Brighton. It’s a long way and if business is time sensitive, trying to arrive and depart just-in-time by train is a risk.

His problem, so far as I’m concerned, is not his choice of the best mode of travel for the occasion, but that his movement generally has eschewed rational engagement with the realities of the world in which we live, in favour of virtue signalling.

Those who live by the virtue signal, will die by the virtue signal, as a very wise man might almost have said.
I can see the dilemma with the trains being disrupted by the weather so not arriving there v flying being against their ethos.

Chris 09-11-2021 15:14
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36100559)
I can see the dilemma with the trains being disrupted by the weather so not arriving there v flying being against their ethos.
It’s a key weakness of deontological (rules-based) ethical decision making. Consequentialism is often more helpful in these situations (though as a system it too has its drawbacks). As it happens his actions do arise from a consequentialist approach, but his problem arises from the fact that the Green movement often seems to form its messages in ways that imply we should be taking hard, deontological decisions. If they could bring themselves to sound more nuanced, rather than appearing simply to shout slogans from the barricades all the time, they would be less likely to cop flak on occasions like this.

mrmistoffelees 12-11-2021 11:23
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36099850)
But as a step towards zero emissions, zero emission at tailpipe is a very worthwhile objective. Atmospheric CO2 isn’t the only problem caused by road traffic. Nitrogen oxides in our towns and cities, especially around urban motorways, are an increasing problem. EVs immediately deal with that localised pollution.

Furthermore, they concentrate the pollution caused by producing their fuel into fewer, more controlled locations - at the power stations, where it can then be more easily remedied by implementing carbon capture during the plant’s lifetime, and eventually switching off the power station in favour of green alternatives.
Fair point, but missing multiple additions IMHO

Mining of raw materials required (emissions + damage to natural habitat)
Transport to
Processing of raw materials required (emissions + damage to natural habitat)
Transport to
Assembly of materials to battery packs
Transport to final assembly.

All of are significant emitters of emissions and damage to the natural environment. some can of course can be mitigated or lessened such as shipping using either slow steam or ultra slow steam.

IMHO battery powered EV's are perhaps at best a short term fix which whist lessening the pollution to the end user/pedestrian moves significant amounts of pollution to different physical areas, thereby creating something akin to a 'Somebody else's problem field'

IMHO The focus should be on hydrogen fuel cells, but, currently that requires significant amounts of energy for production. When i bought our 'EV" i really wanted to go hydrogen, but IIRC at the time of purchase there were only sixteen stations in the whole of the UK.

Mad Max 12-11-2021 11:58
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Too many people on this tiny planet.

Carth 12-11-2021 13:10
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36100883)
Too many people on this tiny planet.
Yep :Yes:

Nature is currently working on that one though ;)

Pierre 13-11-2021 13:35
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36100883)
Too many people on this tiny planet.
Far from it. But if it’s any consolation the global population is forecasted to top out at around 9.5-10 billion in the latter half of the century and then decrease.

The world will be just fine, Greta will be in her 60’s and trying to understand why everything is actually OK and why she wasted her childhood, youth and most of her life on the issue.

Unless we’re hit by a comet.

Hom3r 13-11-2021 14:19
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
I have flown from Newcastle Airport down to Stansted, it took 45 minutes, the day before I drove with others it took nearly 4 hours.


This meant I had more time to do other stuff.


Some of these climate idiots are not on the same planet as those that work.

Chris 13-11-2021 14:26
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 36101003)
I have flown from Newcastle Airport down to Stansted, it took 45 minutes, the day before I drove with others it took nearly 4 hours.


This meant I had more time to do other stuff.


Some of these climate idiots are not on the same planet as those that work.
Except it didn’t take 45 minutes - that’s the time you were in the air, between two airports. If you add transit time between your home and the airport, and the airport and your destination, and check in/baggage collection time, how long did the journey really take?

Hugh 13-11-2021 15:35
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36101004)
Except it didn’t take 45 minutes - that’s the time you were in the air, between two airports. If you add transit time between your home and the airport, and the airport and your destination, and check in/baggage collection time, how long did the journey really take?
Yup - that’s why in Italy, the fast inter-city trains have taken a lot of business from the shuttle flights.

At the train station, turn up 10-15 minutes before, take your own luggage on board, walk about the train (and the Rome-Florence train had a cracking buffet, with fresh Espresso made to order), when you arrive at your destination quick taxi yo the hotel; when we did a Italy trip a couple of years ago, the train beat the plane (Rome - Florence) for price, time travelling, comfort, and enjoyment (lovely scenery).

Paul 13-11-2021 16:00
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Im curious how all these 'climate activists' got to Scotland.

Did they all walk, or use electric cars and trains ? I doubt it.

heero_yuy 13-11-2021 16:09
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
I was somewhat amused by Jeremy Clarkson's take on this:

Quote:
Quote from Jeremy Clarkson: So I stand by what I said. She’s a petulant little brat who cannot possibly know what she’s talking about because she’s young and she seems to have spent most of her school life outside the classroom, protesting about something or other, rather than in it, learning stuff. So yes. Someone needs to smack her bottom and send her to her room.

Of course, in time, she’ll grow up and pack it in. Twenty or 30 years from now, when she needs to pick her kids up from school, and she’s got to get to the hairdressers by five, and it’s raining, she’ll leap into the Volvo just like the rest of us.

And when she gets home and it’s cold, she’s going to turn the central heating up a bit and throw another lump of coal on the fire.
:D

Sephiroth 13-11-2021 16:31
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 

Add Clarkson to the list of heroes (that includes Ferrari and Farage).

Mad Max 13-11-2021 17:47
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
So I stand by what I said. She’s a petulant little brat who cannot possibly know what she’s talking about because she’s young and she seems to have spent most of her school life outside the classroom, protesting about something or other, rather than in it, learning stuff. So yes. Someone needs to smack her bottom and send her to her room.

Of course, in time, she’ll grow up and pack it in. Twenty or 30 years from now, when she needs to pick her kids up from school, and she’s got to get to the hairdressers by five, and it’s raining, she’ll leap into the Volvo just like the rest of us.

And when she gets home and it’s cold, she’s going to turn the central heating up a bit and throw another lump of coal on the fire.
Brilliant....:D:D

Carth 13-11-2021 17:59
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
If only he was PM, we'd be well sorted ;)

Maggy 14-11-2021 07:45
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Too many I’m okay jacks in the world. Until their home is flooded or falls into the sea. Climate issues aren’t here for everyone yet so let’s just kick the can further down the road. The thing is that my children and grandchildren and future descendants will be facing the issue and cursing us for not thinking of them at this point in time.

Carth 14-11-2021 10:37
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36101112)
Too many I’m okay jacks in the world. Until their home is flooded or falls into the sea. Climate issues aren’t here for everyone yet so let’s just kick the can further down the road. The thing is that my children and grandchildren and future descendants will be facing the issue and cursing us for not thinking of them at this point in time.
It was always going to be COPout 26, lots of promises and bugger all done . .

papa smurf 14-11-2021 10:46
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36101119)
It was always going to be COPout 26, lots of promises and bugger all done . .
One thing we have achieved is the residents of the uk will be the only people in the world shivering through future winters while the rest of the word will be cosied up in front of a coal powered /log powered fire, it's going to cost a fortune to go back 500 years, well done cop out 26:(

ianch99 14-11-2021 11:45
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
It is sad but predictable that so many would rather criticise a teenager who is trying to do something instead of discussing what they themselves can do.

It will not be long before climate change deniers will be put in the same bag of crazies as anti-vaxers and flat earthers. I hope that day comes before it is too late.

Carth 14-11-2021 15:21
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36101130)
It is sad but predictable that so many would rather criticise a teenager who is trying to do something instead of discussing what they themselves can do.

It will not be long before climate change deniers will be put in the same bag of crazies as anti-vaxers and flat earthers. I hope that day comes before it is too late.
I'm already doing something . . some of it not by choice:

Change a 15 yr old 1.8 petrol car for a 5 yr old 1.2 (turbo) that doesn't seem much different on fuel economy yet has numerous fancy (expensive to fix) gadgets on board to help me drive safely and economically (most now turned off). Also reduced from a 3 car family to a 2 car family.

Using recommended light bulbs that 'save the world' with an actual life of about 9 months instead of the 25 years advertised.

Deciding not to have a 20 sq M patio laid, leaving it lawned instead.

Hows China doing?

Mad Max 14-11-2021 16:41
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36101153)
I'm already doing something . . some of it not by choice:

Change a 15 yr old 1.8 petrol car for a 5 yr old 1.2 (turbo) that doesn't seem much different on fuel economy yet has numerous fancy (expensive to fix) gadgets on board to help me drive safely and economically (most now turned off). Also reduced from a 3 car family to a 2 car family.

Using recommended light bulbs that 'save the world' with an actual life of about 9 months instead of the 25 years advertised.

Deciding not to have a 20 sq M patio laid, leaving it lawned instead.

Hows China doing?

Just built another coal mine last week. :D

OLD BOY 14-11-2021 16:55
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36101130)
It is sad but predictable that so many would rather criticise a teenager who is trying to do something instead of discussing what they themselves can do.

It will not be long before climate change deniers will be put in the same bag of crazies as anti-vaxers and flat earthers. I hope that day comes before it is too late.
She’s a bumped up little squirt who doesn’t understand the huge practical problems to achieve what she says is necessary. She would soon lose all credibility if governments did what she advocates because populations of all countries would be in revolt mode.

TheDaddy 14-11-2021 17:34
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36101153)
I'm already doing something . . some of it not by choice:

Hows China doing?
China mined the most coal ever recorded in a day recently, over 12 million tonnes or more energy produced in a day than Ireland uses in a year.

I look at things slightly differently and am glad we as a nation are leading the way despite inconveniences for all of us, we are after all the world's biggest polluters overall and as the first industrialised it falls on us to be the first to step away from the brink

Sephiroth 14-11-2021 18:17
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36101172)
China mined the most coal ever recorded in a day recently, over 12 million tonnes or more energy produced in a day than Ireland uses in a year.

I look at things slightly differently and am glad we as a nation are leading the way despite inconveniences for all of us, we are after all the world's biggest polluters overall and as the first industrialised it falls on us to be the first to step away from the brink
Oh dear. Such virtue signalling, if followed, will lead the UK up Schmitt Creek nix paddle.

1. China/India will take commercial advantage and eat more of our lunch than they are already doing.

2. Our very own people will be beggared beyond belief.

And for no reason other than to stick Boris' chest out. Ridiculous.

ianch99 14-11-2021 18:38
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36101169)
She’s a bumped up little squirt who doesn’t understand the huge practical problems to achieve what she says is necessary. She would soon lose all credibility if governments did what she advocates because populations of all countries would be in revolt mode.
As I said:
Quote:
It is sad but predictable that so many would rather criticise a teenager who is trying to do something instead of discussing what they themselves can do.

OLD BOY 14-11-2021 20:00
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36101172)
China mined the most coal ever recorded in a day recently, over 12 million tonnes or more energy produced in a day than Ireland uses in a year.

I look at things slightly differently and am glad we as a nation are leading the way despite inconveniences for all of us, we are after all the world's biggest polluters overall and as the first industrialised it falls on us to be the first to step away from the brink
Yes, we are leading the way, but your second comment (emboldened) puzzles me. Clearly, we are responsible for very little pollution worldwide these days, so were you thinking about our contribution to pollution since the industrial revolution?

Even so, I would have thought the countries like China had already exceeded what we churned out back in the day.

---------- Post added at 20:00 ---------- Previous post was at 19:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36101188)
As I said:
She should go back to school and learn about stuff like the rest of us had to.

Students are renowned for protesting about things they know nothing about. She needs to go back to studying.

TheDaddy 14-11-2021 20:46
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36101184)
Oh dear. Such virtue signalling, if followed, will lead the UK up Schmitt Creek nix paddle.

1. China/India will take commercial advantage and eat more of our lunch than they are already doing.

2. Our very own people will be beggared beyond belief.

And for no reason other than to stick Boris' chest out. Ridiculous.
Facts aren't virtual signalling, from the industrial revolution till now we are one of the world's biggest polluters, you might not like it but that doesn't change that fact nor does it change the fact that we knew what we were doing, scientists warned us at the turn of the last century and we ignored them but tbf I could see why, there were no alternatives and no other choices, there are now and I'm pleased we are leading the way. If you want to cut down the size of China's portions I'd suggest you stop buying crap from them, like everyone else you don't really need it anyway.

Sephiroth 14-11-2021 21:50
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36101211)
Facts aren't virtual signalling, from the industrial revolution till now we are one of the world's biggest polluters, you might not like it but that doesn't change that fact nor does it change the fact that we knew what we were doing, scientists warned us at the turn of the last century and we ignored them but tbf I could see why, there were no alternatives and no other choices, there are now and I'm pleased we are leading the way. If you want to cut down the size of China's portions I'd suggest you stop buying crap from them, like everyone else you don't really need it anyway.
Facts are facts. The particular facts that you then signalled have become virtue signalled facts.

If we "lead the way":

1. We'll be short of electricity;
2. We'll be unable to afford to heat our homes;
3. China & India will jump straight in to manufacture what we can't;
4. Unemployment in the UK will shoot sky high.

Anybody who says we must lead the way hasn't thought the consequences through properly.

Pierre 14-11-2021 22:15
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36101112)
Too many I’m okay jacks in the world. Until their home is flooded or falls into the sea
Don’t buy a house in a valley next to a river, or on the coast. Let’s face it you’ve been warned for the last 50 yrs at least.

mrmistoffelees 14-11-2021 22:43
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36101220)
Don’t buy a house in a valley next to a river, or on the coast. Let’s face it you’ve been warned for the last 50 yrs at least.
And what would you say to those nations that are already significantly affected such as small island states ?

---------- Post added at 22:43 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36101216)
Facts are facts. The particular facts that you then signalled have become virtue signalled facts.

If we "lead the way":

1. We'll be short of electricity;
2. We'll be unable to afford to heat our homes;
3. China & India will jump straight in to manufacture what we can't;
4. Unemployment in the UK will shoot sky high.

Anybody who says we must lead the way hasn't thought the consequences through properly.
I’m sure fears that may hold some similarities were held at the turn of the industrial revolution and in terms of employment there were significant increases in opportunities for both skilled and unskilled workers.

Change is inevitable .

TheDaddy 15-11-2021 00:47
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36101216)
Facts are facts. The particular facts that you then signalled have become virtue signalled facts.

If we "lead the way":

1. We'll be short of electricity;
2. We'll be unable to afford to heat our homes;
3. China & India will jump straight in to manufacture what we can't;
4. Unemployment in the UK will shoot sky high.

Anybody who says we must lead the way hasn't thought the consequences through properly.
:rofl: like what, what do we manufacture here, Patrick Minford has already told you what little is left needs to be sacrificed for brexit as for the rest if your post, I don't think it need be like that at all

Hom3r 15-11-2021 10:46
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36101004)
Except it didn’t take 45 minutes - that’s the time you were in the air, between two airports. If you add transit time between your home and the airport, and the airport and your destination, and check in/baggage collection time, how long did the journey really take?

Well it was business so only hand luggage, we had priority boarding and got there as directed by the airline (1-1/2 hours), as it was a very early flight we had paid breakfast.


At the other end it was leave the plane and the airport.


It was still quicker than getting a cab from my town to the station in Stevenage, plus the train station didn't have any decent food at 6am, nor somewhere warm to wait.

Paul 15-11-2021 18:45
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36101188)
As I said:
Quote:
It is sad but predictable that so many would rather criticise a teenager who is trying to do something instead of discussing what they themselves can do.
Predictable becasue its true ? Shes a loud, but clueless teenager.
Maybe she should think about producing less hot air (after all, it is CO2).

Quote:
Greta Thunberg has called the climate summit a "failure" and a "PR exercise".
and yet ...
Quote:
However, Thunberg has avoided getting into the detail of what action should be taken, saying "it is nothing to do with me".
You could not make it up.

Some of the other protesters are even more clueless.
Stop using (all) fossil fuels now is just a ridiculous suggestion.
Unless of course you want to live in a cold cave, and hunt for your own food.

Carth 15-11-2021 18:54
Re: Climate Change
 
It's the way things are now, everybody can put forward an argument for NOT doing things that are suggested, but nobody comes up with an alternative suggestion.

ianch99 15-11-2021 20:14
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36101367)
Predictable becasue its true ? Shes a loud, but clueless teenager.
Maybe she should think about producing less hot air (after all, it is CO2).


and yet ...


You could not make it up
I am not sure you understand the principle of activism. She is trying to raise awareness of the urgent need to make changes at a global level. She has suggested various actions that can help including a 3-part documentary on the issue and how you could start to address it: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Greta_Th...ange_the_World

Quote:
Greta Thunberg: A Year to Change the World is a three-part documentary series following the climate change activist Greta Thunberg from August 2019 to late 2020, when she was aged 16–17. She travels North America and Europe, hearing experts talk about the complex and diverse effects climate change has had, including damage to forests, the retreat of glaciers, ocean acidification and flash flooding. The series also explores methods to combat climate change such as carbon capture and helping wetlands and mangroves to flourish, but finds that such solutions cannot be rolled out fast enough to be the only part of a climate change mitigation plan. Additionally, Thunberg speaks at conferences, meets the natural historian David Attenborough and attends climate strikes. Plans for filming in other parts of the world were abandoned when the COVID-19 pandemic restricted travel from March 2020 onwards.
At least she is trying to do something ...

Pierre 17-12-2021 14:45
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36101374)
She is trying to raise awareness of the urgent need to make changes at a global level.
As has been said, many, many, many times....no good spouting her bile at us. She needs to get on a boat to India and China.

See how far she gets.

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/art...tm_term=795546

mrmistoffelees 17-12-2021 15:40
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36106110)
As has been said, many, many, many times....no good spouting her bile at us. She needs to get on a boat to India and China.

See how far she gets.

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/art...tm_term=795546

Ok, now look at emissions based on a per person basis, China is nowhere near the worst offender

pip08456 17-12-2021 16:22
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36106115)
Ok, now look at emissions based on a per person basis, China is nowhere near the worst offender
If you provided a link he possibly would.

mrmistoffelees 17-12-2021 16:39
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36106122)
If you provided a link he possibly would.
Sorry, does Pierre need you to speak for him ? I’m sure Pierre is more than capable of using Google.

However, for you

https://lmgtfy.app/?q=pollution+per+capita+by+country

Taf 17-12-2021 16:54
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36106115)
Ok, now look at emissions based on a per person basis, China is nowhere near the worst offender
I think that is a red herring. How much the ENTIRE country emits is realistic.

mrmistoffelees 17-12-2021 17:56
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 36106125)
I think that is a red herring. How much the ENTIRE country emits is realistic.
Sorry, will have to disagree with you

Pierre 17-12-2021 17:57
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36106115)
Ok, now look at emissions based on a per person basis, China is nowhere near the worst offender
The worrying thing about that stat is that China, India and other such quickly developing nations still have a vast % of their populations still in remote rural areas that are still very poor and not yet accessing the benefits of their nations development.

That will change, as these countries continue to lift their populations out of poverty and a like, the populations will then want access to electricity, cars, and all the trappings of modern civilisation ( and they deserve it) but the demand for power ( still best and cheapest provided by fossil fuels) will continue to increase.

So as China’s and India’s massive populations start to suckle on power more widely expect those figures to change.

mrmistoffelees 17-12-2021 18:33
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36106140)
The worrying thing about that stat is that China, India and other such quickly developing nations still have a vast % of their populations still in remote rural areas that are still very poor and not yet accessing the benefits of their nations development.

That will change, as these countries continue to lift their populations out of poverty and a like, the populations will then want access to electricity, cars, and all the trappings of modern civilisation ( and they deserve it) but the demand for power ( still best and cheapest provided by fossil fuels) will continue to increase.

So as China’s and India’s massive populations start to suckle on power more widely expect those figures to change.
Agreed.However….. they doesn’t mean to say we can’t be targeting highest polluters per capita now…

TheDaddy 17-12-2021 20:00
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36106140)
The worrying thing about that stat is that China, India and other such quickly developing nations still have a vast % of their populations still in remote rural areas that are still very poor and not yet accessing the benefits of their nations development.

That will change, as these countries continue to lift their populations out of poverty and a like, the populations will then want access to electricity, cars, and all the trappings of modern civilisation ( and they deserve it) but the demand for power ( still best and cheapest provided by fossil fuels) will continue to increase.

So as China’s and India’s massive populations start to suckle on power more widely expect those figures to change.
The first change we will notice as people come out of poverty is the demand for meat will increase, with the subsequent impact that'll have on the planet.

Sephiroth 17-12-2021 20:52
Re: Climate Change - sea level rises.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36106162)
The first change we will notice as people come out of poverty is the demand for meat will increase, with the subsequent impact that'll have on the planet.
What's wrong with meat? An important food and absolutely delicious. This stuff about methane from farts and burps should be factored in not eliminated.


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