Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36086113)

It's just a gesture, a 'show of solidarity' . . . like the many before it that had lots of good intentions with no end product.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086116)

And it doesn’t help that anyone not seen to be 100% in favour of taking the knee is automatically written off and closed down as a “racist”.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086116)

And it doesn’t help that anyone not seen to be 100% in favour of taking the knee is automatically written off and closed down as a “racist”.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36086113)

It's just a gesture, a 'show of solidarity' . . . like the many before it that had lots of good intentions with no end product.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36086115)

Exactly, how dare people show that they're against racism because their gestures or protests might not achieve anything. They should just shut up, not bother and hope that the offending behavior doesn't get any worse.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36086118)

I don't believe they are - it's often the accompanying comments that lead people to regard them as racists, rather than the objection to "taking the knee",

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36086117)

You're right

However, I'm unable to come up with a reason why people would, or do object to players,athletes etc. taking the knee?

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36086119)

No need to get 'antsy' over a simple comment. Has racist behaviour diminished over the last 10 years or is it still as rife as ever (if not worse due to the newer platforms it can be spouted on? )

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36086124)

I don’t have a problem with it, I just don’t agree with the gesture in a sports game because people who are fed up of politics in general, can and should enjoy politically free sports and entertainment, politics should be kept away from sports.

I already fundamentally know Racism is unacceptable in any society and I would like to think a good majority of the fans in sports do to. Look at the positive response to what fans have done to combat the vandalism on Marcus Rashfords’s Mural. He commented on Twitter last night that he was brought to tears over the messages put on that wall to cover up the foul crap graffitied on it by racists.

But Politics and sport should always be kept separate IMO.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36086125)

It's not the comment, it's the attitude (not yours specifically) that because something doesn't make a difference, it shouldn't be done.

Do the people with that attitude (and I'll include you) believe that pubs and bars should stop the Ask for Angela/Ani campaigns that they run because attacks on women are still occuring?

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086128)

That's a very good point however I don't see any politics in helping women avoid being attacked.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36086125)

It's not the comment, it's the attitude (not yours specifically) that because something doesn't make a difference, it shouldn't be done.

Do the people with that attitude (and I'll include you) believe that pubs and bars should stop the Ask for Angela/Ani campaigns that they run because attacks on women are still occuring?

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086120)

Oh they are. You’re right in that it’s often accompanied by racist comments and abuse. But for example, I’m in favour of people being allowed to decide for themselves whether to take the knee. Freedom to choose. If someone thinks it’s an empty gesture then they should be allowed to do say so, and abstain.

I disagree that there ought to be some sort of obligation to join in.

*disclaimer - in case anyone fancies accusing me of racism, my son is mixed race, my OH is Polish and her daughter is half Polish, half Nigerian.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36086131)

I obviously agree that something should be done, about many things not just racist comments on social media, however I was simply suggesting (for want of a better word) that taking the knee is simply a gesture highlighting a problem that we've known about for years, and previous 'awareness' initiatives haven't really done anything to improve things.

Actually, in one sense, it's given people yet another thing to complain about, given that it's seen by some (as has been mentioned) that if you don't agree with it you're deemed as racist yourself :shocked:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36086137)

There is no wrong or right regarding taking the knee, the reasons behind it have been discussed to death many times.

There are however differing opinions on whether it's working as intended, should be mandatory, or being hijacked as a political meaning.

To be honest I don't mind if players want to do it or not . . as long as they retain the choice without being scapegoated if they don't.


As for the Ask Angela/Ani stuff . . no idea . . maybe it's the drinking culture?

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36086078)

That’s like saying if women didn’t wear low cut tops or short skirts they’re wouldn’t be as many women being sexually harassed, sexually assaulted (or worse)

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36086078)

The problem is the racists NOT those who are protesting/drawing attention to it.

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36086177)

Not related in any way, but the probability is almost certainly that there would not.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36086184)

We need to go after the racists, not those protesting against it.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36086184)

That kind of is the point though. They should be able to wear what they want. It's 100% the fault of the rapist.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36086187)

If we go after racists, what do we do when we get them?

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36086209)

In the case of Football. Ban them for life from all sports fixtures. They are not allowed to attend any game, for any sport. Ban them on social media, let them exist in their own little echo chamber.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36086209)

In the case of Football. Ban them for life from all sports fixtures. They are not allowed to attend any game, for any sport. Ban them on social media, let them exist in their own little echo chamber.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36086212)

Immigration is a whole separate discussion, but I will ask this…Is it racist though to worry about shortages, on an Island with limited resources, there is a housing crisis in the UK, priority should always be that countries citizens should come first. Are refugees genuine refugees, fleeing war torn countries?

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086211)

Nobody could reasonably be against that but is it really solving the problem (which surely must be the end result)? Or is it just moving the problem somewhere else? I mean people like Katie Hopkins gets banned from Twitter, she then ends up on Parler.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36086212)

Immigration is a whole separate discussion, but I will ask this…Is it racist though to worry about shortages, on an Island with limited resources, there is a housing crisis in the UK, priority should always be that countries citizens should come first. Are refugees genuine refugees, fleeing war torn countries?

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36086215)

I agree it’s moving the problem elsewhere. Twitter/Facebook/YouTube, have all banned Trump, but he’s still about in the background and he’s still attracting huge swathes of the American electorate, if they think they have silenced him, they’re wrong and because of these companies actions, they have probably caused him to be more prolific, given the fact he was a former U.S President. So yeah, agree banning troublesome people, doesn’t fully solve everything. Just kicks problem elsewhere.

---------- Post added at 12:56 ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 ----------

Look at this today now from Starmer accusing the PM of failing to condemn the boo'ers during England game when they take the knee, except this footage shows he did say the England teams should not be boo'd.

https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/stat...75719568019456

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086199)

Taking the knee, bans from social media, campaigns in the media etc, I can't imagine any situation where a racist will see all that and have a change of heart. As has been said previously it will only make them more determined.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086283)

And you think “challenging them” will change their minds? Seriously, you don’t really believe that?

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086285)

Ok, you’re serious. You think these racist are the types to “reflect” on their behaviour?

And given that so many of them represent the hooligan element do you also think they care if others are staring daggers at them? Honestly?

I’ve never said we should do nothing but equally that doesn’t mean we should try just anything.

All the measures and gestures I’ve seen so far merely serve to move the problem elsewhere. And the problem with that is it’ll never go away. It’s like 2 people saying do each other “you’re wrong” “no, you’re wrong”.

It solves nothing.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086287)

Erm….has society not been talking about racism in football for 40 years or more?

Has it been reduced in any way? I’d love to see some evidence.

All just empty gesture. Doing things for the sake of being to say “we’ve done something”, nothing more.

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36086289)

So how are you going to solve the issue?

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086290)

It’s isn’t up to me to solve the issue. All I know is it’s clear that all we’ve had so far is gestures.

Again don’t get me wrong, we should never give up the fight against this racism. It just needs to be tackled smarter, not harder.

The anti-racism groups seem to think that all they have to do is get their message across powerfully enough and it’s going to make the abusers see the error of their ways. Spectacular level of naivety.

They also seem to think that shutting the racists down, banning and cancelling them will also do the same. Whist I agree that we should have to see, read or hear racist abuse that doesn’t tackle the problem either. As previously mentioned, Katie Hopkins and Trump both got booted off Twitter, they’re now on Parler.

I may not have the answer but that does exclude me from pointing out when methods don’t work.

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36086293)

Not making any gesture, suggests we're happy with the status quo. The events of the last week and the abuse certain England footballers got prove we have a bigger issue than ever and we shouldn't run away or ignore it.

(btw never heard of Parler, doesn't sound as though I'd like it ! ;))

Some new that will probably not please you:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/57846090

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086290)

It’s isn’t up to me to solve the issue. <snip>

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36086296)

But it is, it's on all of us to fight against racism

Your position leads to 'First they came....'

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36086237)

So what you're saying is it is okay for one side to use divisive gestures but no ok to boo them doing the gestures and by the way, it doesn't make a boo'er racist because these gestures will not stop racists being racist. People are probably booing because they don't want politics in sport.

England players have set the ball very high now for equal rights and social acceptance of varying aspects of ones life, however, in next years World Cup, what they going to do in Qatar, where being gay is illegal?

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36086194)

Exactly the point.
Making silly jestures is not going after anyone
They are exactly that, pointless and silly jestures.
I tune into [or attend] football matches to watch football, not watch stupid jestures.
Go and delete your social media accounts if you want to protest about the abuse on them.

---------- Post added at 03:54 ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 ----------


Again, not related, apples/oranges .. but just to be clear, I would consider jestures at a football match against rape to be just as silly and pointless, its not the fault of football that rape or racism exist.

Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36086301)

Speaking out is the only way to change anything.By not challenging the man down the pub with their racist tirades you basically let them think everyone agrees with them.Keeping silent changes nothing. What people think I can't change.However I can change what people say out loud by challenging them when they say it and write for all to see.

Keeping quiet shouldn't be an option if we really want change.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086290)

The anti-racism groups seem to think that all they have to do is get their message across powerfully enough and it’s going to make the abusers see the error of their ways. Spectacular level of naivety.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36086304)

This isn't that goal. Their goal is to raise awareness of where racism still exists and to get the public behind other measures to reduce it.



Which is a success. Hopkins has a much larger platform on Twitter and now she is reduced to Parler and only has a hardcore audience. There was someone who got 200,000-1,000,000 views on YouTube promoting theories about black people and IQ. YouTube banned him and so he moved to Bitchute where he gets in the low thousands.

Pushing people off large platforms and into the margins of the Internet is a success.

The England team's stand against racism and the subsequent abuse some of them received and caused a public outcry and now you have popular opinion, the press and the Government putting pressure on social media companies to remove racist accounts quicker and to algorithmically and proactively detect racist slurs and remove those too.

Hardcore racists aren't going away but we can keep pushing them further and further from the mainstream until all they are is bitter people shouting out of the window because no one else is willing to give them a platform or an audience.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086310)

I would argue than any measures/gestures to “reduce” racism have spectacularly failed. Given how anyone who has an online presence believes that gives hem the right to be heard I’d say racism is just as bad today than it’s ever been.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36086299)

Here's a thought, if you don't want to watch 'stupid gestures' at football, then don't go to the match.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36086290)

It’s isn’t up to me to solve the issue. All I know is it’s clear that all we’ve had so far is gestures.

Again don’t get me wrong, we should never give up the fight against this racism. It just needs to be tackled smarter, not harder.

The anti-racism groups seem to think that all they have to do is get their message across powerfully enough and it’s going to make the abusers see the error of their ways. Spectacular level of naivety.

They also seem to think that shutting the racists down, banning and cancelling them will also do the same. Whist I agree that we should have to see, read or hear racist abuse that doesn’t tackle the problem either. As previously mentioned, Katie Hopkins and Trump both got booted off Twitter, they’re now on Parler.

I may not have the answer but that does exclude me from pointing out when methods don’t work.

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36086293)

(btw never heard of Parler, doesn't sound as though I'd like it ! ;))

Some new that will probably not please you:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/57846090

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36086326)

Clearly you dont have many useful thoughts. :dozey:
Maybe if you try harder you'll realise why people go to a football match. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36086299)

Here's a thought, if you don't want to watch 'stupid gestures' at football, then don't go to the match.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36086338)

To be fair, we could change that slightly to eliminate much of the problem . . .

"if you don't want to read nasty things on social media, then don't use it"

works for me ;)

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36086391)

How about "if you don’t want to hear racist insults, don’t walk anywhere"?

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36086331)

I do like the way you have to resort to insults, I trust it makes you feel better.

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36086415)

Using social media isnt necessary, walking generally is.

---------- Post added at 03:20 ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 ----------


There is a saying that starts "anything you can do .....". Or maybe the one about "people is glass houses"