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-   -   Black Lives Matter (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709106)

denphone 08-06-2020 11:06
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36038839)
oh the bastion of the middle ground David Lammy, has already used the Cummings excuse this morning for that one.

and that this is a much too an important higher cause , than to worry about a piffling thing such as Social Distancing - perfectly fine.
There were no excuses for Cummings and likewise that same sentiment applies to David Lammy this morning either.

jfman 08-06-2020 11:08
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
It doesn't say they hate anyone - it says they want to lift up marginalised groups it doesn't say they want to kick you down.

White brings us to the crux of English nationalism - it sees these concepts as a threat. Any group, proud of who they are, or their own identity and who aspires to equality is seen as a threat.

denphone 08-06-2020 11:09
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36038839)
and that this is a much too an important higher cause , than to worry about a piffling thing such as Social Distancing - perfectly fine.
Sadly some in this country just don't get that.

papa smurf 08-06-2020 11:10
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36038839)
So basically they just hate White, straight, Men - that's me out then.

This is a just a group that has appropriated the title BLM from the american movement.

And I continue to be consistent in my appraisal of them.

They should call themselves British Blacks hate British White straight men - that fits better with their mission statement and they are nothing to do with the the american movement.

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 ----------



oh the bastion of the middle ground David Lammy, has already used the Cummings excuse this morning for that one.

and that this is a much too an important higher cause , than to worry about a piffling thing such as Social Distancing - perfectly fine.
Racists then. who'd of thunk that.

jfman 08-06-2020 11:10
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038847)
Racists then. who'd of thunk that.
Pierre said that, they didn't. It's telling that both of you see their language as a threat.

papa smurf 08-06-2020 11:19
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038848)
Pierre said that, they didn't. It's telling that both of you see their language as a threat.
"Our commitment to all black lives means that we lift up the experiences of the most marginalised in our communities, including but not limited to working class queer, trans, undocumented, disabled, Muslim, sex workers, women/non-binary, HIV+ people"

No straight white people mentioned in that quote.i don't see anyone as a threat.

jfman 08-06-2020 11:21
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Are straight white men marginalised communities that need "lifted up"?

Nowhere do they express hate.

papa smurf 08-06-2020 11:24
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038850)
Are straight white men marginalised communities that need "lifted up"?

Nowhere do they express hate.
Yes,but no one wan'ts to hear about it.

Mr K 08-06-2020 11:28
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038851)
Yes,but no one wan'ts to hear about it.
Get out and protest then Smurf ! Nobody reads CF ;)

jfman 08-06-2020 11:28
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038851)
Yes,but no one wan'ts to hear about it.
Where? Who from?

I'm genuinely very keen to hear the evidence base for this. As a straight white man who doesn't feel very persecuted I'd be genuinely upset to miss out on Straight White Men Matter and campaign for our needs.

ceedee 08-06-2020 11:29
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36038823)
I'm not deciding anything...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36038839)
They should call themselves British Blacks hate British White straight men...
That's your white privilege telling BLM UK what to do.

Pierre 08-06-2020 11:42
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceedee (Post 36038854)
That's your white privilege telling BLM UK what to do.
No, that's me using my right to free speech by offering an opinion that their name doesn't represent their ideals and suggesting they try a new one.

papa smurf 08-06-2020 11:42
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038853)
Where? Who from?

I'm genuinely very keen to hear the evidence base for this. As a straight white man who doesn't feel very persecuted I'd be genuinely upset to miss out on Straight White Men Matter and campaign for our needs.
You pretend to care but i know in my heart that you don't ,your just patronising me.

Chris 08-06-2020 11:45
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceedee (Post 36038854)
That's your white privilege telling BLM UK what to do.
Err, no, that’s the equality BLM UK claims to want, at work. BLM UK campaigning and expressing its views ... great. People outside of their client group being told to either agree and approve of both message and method, or else be silent ... not great.

I’m happy for any group in the U.K. to campaign on whatever they want, right up to the point where they start destroying the fabric of the towns and cities we all share and assaulting those whose job is to maintain our safety and order.

I’ve kept out of this thread so far because I really don’t have time for the pointless, circular shouting past each other that it has been from the outset. Had I contributed before now I’d probably simply have pointed out that the claim “Black lives matter” does not mean therefore that white lives do not matter. However, it is apparent that there are those on the fringe who are all too willing to bleat “white privilege” at any opinion they disagree with but lack the intellectual capacity to counter. For some people it actually starts to look like “Black Lives Matter” does mean “white lives don’t matter”. And that’s a shame, because I’m quite sure that’s not what the original intention of the campaign in the US was.

Mr K 08-06-2020 11:59
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
People from either side will try and hijack it for whatever reason they want. 'All lives matter' might have been a better slogan, but a bit too subtle for the US, who need it spelling outto them what the issue is.

Chris 08-06-2020 12:03
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36038863)
People from either side will try and hijack it for whatever reason they want. 'All lives matter' might have been a better slogan, but a bit too subtle for the US, who need it spelling outto them what the issue is.
Very true, and sadly this weekend I think we have lost a golden opportunity to examine racial history in the USA and try to understand what the problems really are over there. It remains a very rich and influential country that we have to deal with and it is useful for us to understand what makes it tick. Now, though, all anyone is associating with BLM in the British press this morning is a copper with a head wound and a large bronze statue being dumped in a dock.

(edit) and, of course, the very real risk that there might now be some local spikes in Covid-19 transmission due to ill-advised mass gatherings in various cities.

jfman 08-06-2020 12:33
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
I'm not sure Britain needs to understand racial inequality in the USA. I'd say Americans do.

Maggy 08-06-2020 12:35
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36038859)
Err, no, that’s the equality BLM UK claims to want, at work. BLM UK campaigning and expressing its views ... great. People outside of their client group being told to either agree and approve of both message and method, or else be silent ... not great.

I’m happy for any group in the U.K. to campaign on whatever they want, right up to the point where they start destroying the fabric of the towns and cities we all share and assaulting those whose job is to maintain our safety and order.

I’ve kept out of this thread so far because I really don’t have time for the pointless, circular shouting past each other that it has been from the outset. Had I contributed before now I’d probably simply have pointed out that the claim “Black lives matter” does not mean therefore that white lives do not matter. However, it is apparent that there are those on the fringe who are all too willing to bleat “white privilege” at any opinion they disagree with but lack the intellectual capacity to counter. For some people it actually starts to look like “Black Lives Matter” does mean “white lives don’t matter”. And that’s a shame, because I’m quite sure that’s not what the original intention of the campaign in the US was.
:tu:

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 12:43
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36038811)
And that has happened in the UK how many times?



Because state oppression, killing or lack of bringing to justice those that kill Black people is not an issue in the UK as it is in the USA.



I have a view and I will express it, who are you to try and shout me down?



Already been through this with Ben, he’s better at than you btw, and it seemed evident that there was disparity. Which might be annoying, upsetting, frustrating and it needs to be looked at.........but nobody dies.


I don’t know, do you?[COLOR="Silver"]

</snip>.
to take your points in order.

1) There have several deaths in police custody of black people where excessive force has played a significant part in the death of a suspect. Look it up

2) Your opinion is detracting from the crux of the issue. It doesn't matter what the movement is called. the important part is the objective. I don't see BLM in the US complaining about people in the UK or other parts of the world using BLM. So why is it so important to you?

If you think saying someone is better than me is going to cause me to stop debating then I'm sorry you're wrong. If that wasn't the aim then i don't really see why you would choose to post a petty attempt at an insult.

Now, would you like to stop with the poor attempts at insults and use the significant intelligence you posses to engage in the important part of the issue?

---------- Post added at 11:43 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36038863)
People from either side will try and hijack it for whatever reason they want. 'All lives matter' might have been a better slogan, but a bit too subtle for the US, who need it spelling outto them what the issue is.

Why would 'All lives matter' have been a better slogan? Don't you think that detracts the focus from where it needs to be?

ceedee 08-06-2020 12:47
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36038859)
Err, no, that’s the equality BLM UK claims to want, at work. BLM UK campaigning and expressing its views ... great. People outside of their client group being told to either agree and approve of both message and method, or else be silent ... not great.

I’m happy for any group in the U.K. to campaign on whatever they want, right up to the point where they start destroying the fabric of the towns and cities we all share and assaulting those whose job is to maintain our safety and order.

I’ve kept out of this thread so far because I really don’t have time for the pointless, circular shouting past each other that it has been from the outset. Had I contributed before now I’d probably simply have pointed out that the claim “Black lives matter” does not mean therefore that white lives do not matter. However, it is apparent that there are those on the fringe who are all too willing to bleat “white privilege” at any opinion they disagree with but lack the intellectual capacity to counter. For some people it actually starts to look like “Black Lives Matter” does mean “white lives don’t matter”. And that’s a shame, because I’m quite sure that’s not what the original intention of the campaign in the US was.
As far as I can see, BLM in the US or UK have never claimed to seek equality or claimed that everyone must agree or be silent.

And many have pointed out that 'All Houses Matter' but it's the one that's on fire right now that requires urgent attention, not the ones around it that aren't.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone in the white community is welcome to form and express any opinion they see fit but telling black people what their movement "should do" crosses a line into 'white privilege'.

You may not have a problem with that but, I suspect, both BLM in the US and UK will.

Chris 08-06-2020 12:49
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038872)
I'm not sure Britain needs to understand racial inequality in the USA. I'd say Americans do.
Given the deep influence American culture has on ours ... we absolutely do.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 12:51
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36038859)
Err, no, that’s the equality BLM UK claims to want, at work. BLM UK campaigning and expressing its views ... great. People outside of their client group being told to either agree and approve of both message and method, or else be silent ... not great.

I’m happy for any group in the U.K. to campaign on whatever they want, right up to the point where they start destroying the fabric of the towns and cities we all share and assaulting those whose job is to maintain our safety and order.

I’ve kept out of this thread so far because I really don’t have time for the pointless, circular shouting past each other that it has been from the outset. Had I contributed before now I’d probably simply have pointed out that the claim “Black lives matter” does not mean therefore that white lives do not matter. However, it is apparent that there are those on the fringe who are all too willing to bleat “white privilege” at any opinion they disagree with but lack the intellectual capacity to counter. For some people it actually starts to look like “Black Lives Matter” does mean “white lives don’t matter”. And that’s a shame, because I’m quite sure that’s not what the original intention of the campaign in the US was.
A significant lack of the population don't know or want to know what 'White Privilege' actually is. Perhaps they're more lacking the intellectual capacity?

---------- Post added at 11:51 ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceedee (Post 36038877)
As far as I can see, BLM in the US or UK have never claimed to seek equality or claimed that everyone must agree or be silent.

And many have pointed out that 'All Houses Matter' but it's the one that's on fire right now that requires urgent attention, not the ones around it that aren't.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone in the white community is welcome to form and express any opinion they see fit but telling black people what their movement "should do" crosses a line into 'white privilege'.

You may not have a problem with that but, I suspect, both BLM in the US and UK will.
This ^^^^^

Chris 08-06-2020 12:54
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceedee (Post 36038877)
As far as I'm concerned, anyone in the white community is welcome to form and express any opinion they see fit but telling black people what their movement "should do" crosses a line into 'white privilege'.
Which are just fancy words for suggesting some opinions weigh more than others, or some ought perhaps to be heard more or less than others. Which, ironically, is a great deal of what BLM is protesting against. Telling a movement what it “should do” is still just an opinion. You can either deal with it, or shout it down. As far as I can see, the claim of “white privilege” is commonly used as an intellectually weak means of shouting down.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 12:57
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36038883)
Which are just fancy words for suggesting some opinions weigh more than others, or some ought perhaps to be heard more or less than others. Which, ironically, is a great deal of what BLM is protesting against. Telling a movement what it “should do” is still just an opinion. You can either deal with it, or shout it down. As far as I can see, the claim of “white privilege” is commonly used as an intellectually weak means of shouting down.
When it comes to the Black Lives Matter movement, Black opinions on it do matter more than non blacks.

nomadking 08-06-2020 12:59
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36038822)
Again the assumptions there. The issue that BLM and other organisations are raising in the US are about the culture within the police and other state and federal institutions. I don't believe anyone has said it's white police only, but a lot of the issues come from white police as the segregation and racism that plagues the US come from Americans with a European background for the most part.

It's the built in assumption that if you are black, you are immediately a threat, or require heavier handed tactics than if you're white. It's completely possible for someone from a BAME background to hold those views due to the environment they're in.

And as you brought up Jamaica - then that's also being raised as part of the current protests:
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/...9?profile=1373

And about your 'more white people than black are killed by the police', that's true, but that's because there are more white people than black people in the US. This is the statistic you should be looking at:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-ethnicity-us/

That is a major generalisation. Many of the incidents do not involve violence or resistance on the part of those being arrested, and statistics that I can find do not back up the assumptions that black people being arrested are always more prepared for violence:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

The issues that the black and other minority communities can face is that the US police will approach a situation with an assumption that escalates the situation. Traffic stops with guns drawn for instance. It can be different elsewhere but built-in assumptions are not unique to the US.
Resisting arrest doesn't only mean violently resisting. It can also mean just not coming quietly and having to be forced. What else are the police expected to to do? Just let them go?

The central point about countries such as Jamaica is that it emphasises that it is clearly NOT a White v Black issue. Looking around the world also emphasises the Black people do seem to be more violent and aggressive.
Quote:
Sexual offences and murder rates have risen significantly in South Africa over the past year, according to new official crime figures.Murders recorded by the police have been rising every year for the last decade, and sexual offences including rape have risen 4.6% this year.

...
In that year, there were 15,554 recorded murders. By 2018-19, this figure had increased to 21,022.
That averages out to about 58 murders a day.
Anyone remember the "necklacing"? Types filled with petrol placed around people necks and set alight? Those attacks were aimed at other non-white people.
Quote:
The practice dates back to the 1980s, when it became the punishment of choice among supporters of the African National Congress (ANC) for alleged collaborators with the apartheid regime - though the ANC leadership said it did not condone it. It was also used against common criminals.

UK, Independent Police Complaints. Commission report on deaths in custody.
Quote:
Ninety per cent of the deceased in our sample
were male, 76% were White, 7% were Black, 5%
were Asian, 2% were Mixed race, and 1% were
Chinese/other ethnicity (the ethnicity of 9% of the
sample was not stated).
...
Twenty-nine per cent of the sample were involved
in a struggle or violence on arrest, or while in
custody or hospital. Forty-two per cent were
handcuffed either on arrest, or while in custody or
hospital. Twenty-six per cent (87 people) were
physically restrained by officers on arrest, during
transportation or while in custody or hospital.
...
Of the 87 people who were physically restrained by
officers, just under half were arrested for public
order or drugs offences.
...
For 16 people (5%), cause of death was classed as
restraint-related (either primary or secondary
cause of death). Of these deaths 12 people were
White, three were Black and one was Asian. For
four of the 16 people, cause of death was also
classed as positional asphyxia.
...
Fifty six people in the study had some link to drugs
associated with their case. They were significantly
more likely to be younger (aged 18-34 years) and a
higher proportion were from BME groups.
White people have also been killed by having to be restrained.

Eg
Quote:
The family of a man who died after being restrained face down by officers has accused police of being “arrogant and evasive”, after an inquest jury found that Sussex police’s neglect contributed to his death.
The family of Duncan Tomlin, 32, have fought a five-year battle over his death in 2014. After their partial victory at the inquest they are facing a legal bill of up to Ł7,000, the Guardian understands.
The police don't restrain people just for the sake of it.:rolleyes: They'd much rather you came quietly and peacefully, and without having to be chased.
Switzerland
Quote:
The police version of events was that, as Chukwu resisted deportation, it was necessary to hold him face down on the ground and handcuff him, with his hands placed behind his back. A final autopsy report states that Chukwu’s death by suffocation was provoked by the position in which he was placed. It points out that Chukwu was highly agitated and that, in a struggle that lasted for several minutes, Chukwu’s physical exertion may have completely drained his oxygen supply. The fact that his hands were then cuffed behind his back, placed him in a position in which it was hard to breathe. And the partial weight of one of the officers on his thorax was a further hindrance to his respiratory system.
So it might have been a (non-white?) officer on his chest, not his neck that caused the problems in the US case. Deportations are a specific example of where people get aggressive, even at the late stage of being on the plane.



Quote:
Grime star Stormzy has opened up about a horrific past incident where he was stabbed three times.
...
‘I will never forget. I was explaining, “I got stabbed here, there, there”. They had faces of horror — and that’s when it dawned on me. Where I come from is mad. Of course it’s shocking I’ve been stabbed. Of course it shouldn’t be normal.’
Labour MP Diane Abbott had to send her son away to a private school to get away from other black kids.
Quote:
I knew what could happen to my son if he was sent to the wrong school and got in with the wrong crowd.
I realised they were subjected to peer *pressure and when that happens it’s very hard for a mother to save her son.
Once a black boy is lost to the world of gangs it’s very hard to get them back and I was genuinely very fearful of what could happen.
Trevor Philips on Question Time
Quote:
The woman's shocking admission came as the BBC One show's panelists discussed the steady increase in street crime, particularly involving knives and what more can be done to stop the epidemic.
...

The Labour Party member and former chairman of Commission for Equality and Human Rights, said: "It is young black men who are dying and by the way young black men doing the killing."

...
"This is not an accidental thing, what is happening is young people are being hunted down by packs of other people," he said.
"They are being stabbed. And aside from the ones who are dying, there are hundreds of people in this city who are being stabbed."
Going on to paint a very disturbing picture, he said offenders are now stabbing youths "in the anus so they have to wear colostomy bags", adding: "This is vicious and out of control."
The central thing is that where somewhere is dangerous to be, that is likely to be because of Black people, and in the US also Hispanic. That really is completely undeniable, no matter how much certain people are determined to deny it.


In the US, police have been killed at simple traffic stops, by people of various colours(ie Black, White, etc). They approach with guns drawn for everybody. It is a FACT, that certain groups of whatever race, are more likely to be violent. Even within a particular race, certain individuals eg elderly, will be treated more lightly. The core issue ISN'T race, but likelihood to be violent. Eg if people wearing blue T-shirts started becoming more violent, then anybody wearing a blue T-shirt would understandably have to be treated with more caution, and with fear of injury to the police officer. Making false assumptions that everybody is "cute and fluffy" gets police officers killed.
Quote:
In 2017 two thirds of knife crime offenders under 25 in London were black or minority ethnic, according to the Mayor of London’s Office for Policing and Crime.
Who are Police officers going to be more wary of? Why do you think they wear anti-stab vests? Not as a fashion item.:rolleyes: The situation in the US for the Police is much worse.

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038884)
When it comes to the Black Lives Matter movement, Black opinions on it do matter more than non blacks.
Really? Where do FACTS come into it?

Mythica 08-06-2020 13:00
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038874)
to take your points in order.

1) There have several deaths in police custody of black people where excessive force has played a significant part in the death of a suspect. Look it up

2) Your opinion is detracting from the crux of the issue. It doesn't matter what the movement is called. the important part is the objective. I don't see BLM in the US complaining about people in the UK or other parts of the world using BLM. So why is it so important to you?

If you think saying someone is better than me is going to cause me to stop debating then I'm sorry you're wrong. If that wasn't the aim then i don't really see why you would choose to post a petty attempt at an insult.

Now, would you like to stop with the poor attempts at insults and use the significant intelligence you posses to engage in the important part of the issue?

---------- Post added at 11:43 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------




Why would 'All lives matter' have been a better slogan? Don't you think that detracts the focus from where it needs to be?
The focus needs to be on equality, so no, it fits perfect.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 13:00
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038885)

</snip>

[/COLOR]
Really? Where do FACTS come into it?

Are you saying that they don't know the motives of their own movements and that you know better?

jfman 08-06-2020 13:04
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36038880)
Given the deep influence American culture has on ours ... we absolutely do.
I'd place us ahead of the USA on this, but wouldn't be complacent enough to say we don't have a problem - our history shows we definitely do.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 13:08
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36038887)
The focus needs to be on equality, so no, it fits perfect.
Really? Show me where the white population are being met by systemic racism?

As a global population we're not starting from a level playing field. Therefore efforts have to be focused on the worst affected areas first. which right now is the Black community

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038889)
I'd place us ahead of the USA on this, but wouldn't be complacent enough to say we don't have a problem - our history shows we definitely do.
We're ahead on the police side of things for a couple of reasons

1) Less armed police
2) Unionisation of the police in the UK has nowhere near the power that it holds in the US

Pierre 08-06-2020 13:13
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038881)
A significant lack of the population don't know or want to know what 'White Privilege' actually is.
Well the stage is yours, enlighten us and Ceedee because he/she obviously has no idea either.

---------- Post added at 12:13 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038884)
When it comes to the Black Lives Matter movement, Black opinions on it do matter more than non blacks.
Not really, no opinion matters more from anyone, because it's just an opinion that can be listened to or ignored. No one is obligated to act on an opinion no matter who gives it.

Chris 08-06-2020 13:14
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038889)
I'd place us ahead of the USA on this, but wouldn't be complacent enough to say we don't have a problem - our history shows we definitely do.
I agree. However this weekend’s protests were triggered by a current situation in the USA. It would have been useful to allow that to generate some understanding over here, of the situation over there. Instead, the nature of some of the protests over here has ensured no fresh understanding of either British or American race relations issues. I think that’s not entirely surprising seeing as the British protests weren’t triggered by a specific British incident, and so were never going to have the same clear focus as has been more typical of events in the USA.

Mythica 08-06-2020 13:20
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038891)
Really? Show me where the white population are being met by systemic racism?

As a global population we're not starting from a level playing field. Therefore efforts have to be focused on the worst affected areas first. which right now is the Black community

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------



We're ahead on the police side of things for a couple of reasons

1) Less armed police
2) Unionisation of the police in the UK has nowhere near the power that it holds in the US
You're asking a question to a point I never raised. If we want equality to be the final outcome, let's also start with equality. You can still focus on certain issues without having to have slogans that single out a certain group.

Mick 08-06-2020 13:21
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36038809)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52954305

So mainly peaceful protests marred by idiots, as usual.
The Slave Trader Statue of Edward Colston, should have been removed from Bristol a long time ago. That said, I do not agree with the vandalism that took place to remove it yesterday.

It needed to be removed by consent of the local Bristol people.

Those cretins who spray painted Winston Churchill's Memorial Statue in London by crossing out his name and then inserting with graffiti "was a racist", clearly need a lesson in history and on his victory of "the other guy", on beating Hitler, probably the most racist and fascist character, in human history.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 13:30
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36038895)
Well the stage is yours, enlighten us and Ceedee because he/she obviously has no idea either.

This is the first time that I've even started to move into the subject area of white privilege because it's a viscous area. It's very important however that we understand that the term 'white privilege' is not a synonym from racist.

So, as a bright person why don't you educate yourself? Start with the invisible backpack

Again, you're always trying with the snide little comments and insults.You really should stop, Your attempts at sneering at individuals whom you believe to be inferior to you detract from your articulate arguments

---------- Post added at 12:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36038898)
You're asking a question to a point I never raised. If we want equality to be the final outcome, let's also start with equality. You can still focus on certain issues without having to have slogans that single out a certain group.
You focus resources where the need is greatest. If you don't get that then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

---------- Post added at 12:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36038899)
The Slave Trader Statue of Edward Colston, should have been removed from Bristol a long time ago. That said, I do not agree with the vandalism that took place to remove it yesterday.

It needed to be removed by consent of the local Bristol people.

Those cretins who spray painted Winston Churchill's Memorial Statue in London by crossing out his name and then inserting with graffiti "was a racist", clearly need a lesson in history and on his victory of "the other guy", on beating Hitler, probably the most racist and fascist character, in human history.
Can we stop agreeing on things please :D

On the Churchill side of things, The protestors reaction was completely over the top. HOWEVER Churchill has had racist statements attributed to him. & this is what i think the protestors latched onto (incorrectly)

downquark1 08-06-2020 13:33
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038900)
On the Churchill side of things, The protestors reaction was completely over the top. HOWEVER Churchill has had racist statements attributed to him. & this is what i think the protestors latched onto (incorrectly)
If this is the criteria for historical displays there will be literally no history figure capable of being displayed in this nation. Not Churchhill, not Henry the 8th, not Tony Blair.

Please be very careful about the precedents that are going to be set here.

nomadking 08-06-2020 13:34
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038888)
Are you saying that they don't know the motives of their own movements and that you know better?
All to often, in various instances, people just blindly latch onto comments by other people, without testing the truth and contradictions behind them.
Eg you can't go around making the ludicrous claims that because of White racism, that it's more dangerous to go out somewhere if you're black, or that more black people are being killed. How can it be White racism, when it's black people responsible for that violence?:confused: Just as in this case, you can't make the claim of racism, as 2 of the officers were not White, and one of them could easily have been the one whose actions may have caused the death(pressure on chest), or by chance been the one restraining the head(to avoid spitting?).



Just about everything is labelled as racist, therefore discrimination in favour of blacks must be imposed. How likely is it that nowadays that people Spielberg, Hitchcock, Scorsese, and so many other White male talents would have stood a chance? There are recent comments that certain TV series(eg Friends) would be more inclusive if made today. Why? Not unreasonable that 5 sets of White people would get together. Plenty of TV series, especially US ones, where the cast is almost exclusively Black, and uses certain words. Nobody bats an eyelid over that.


It is getting unbelievably sinister and scary, if you make the wrong comment, basically your career and life is over. Examples exist of where people have been bullied out, just because they don't support violence and thuggery.:mad:

Mythica 08-06-2020 13:34
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038900)
This is the first time that I've even started to move into the subject area of white privilege because it's a viscous area. It's very important however that we understand that the term 'white privilege' is not a synonym from racist.

So, as a bright person why don't you educate yourself? Start with the invisible backpack

Again, you're always trying with the snide little comments and insults.You really should stop, Your attempts at sneering at individuals whom you believe to be inferior to you detract from your articulate arguments

---------- Post added at 12:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------



You focus resources where the need is greatest. If you don't get that then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

---------- Post added at 12:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 ----------



Can we stop agreeing on things please :D

On the Churchill side of things, The protestors reaction was completely over the top. HOWEVER Churchill has had racist statements attributed to him. & this is what i think the protestors latched onto (incorrectly)
You've just stated what I've stated, I'm just saying we don't need slogans that single out one group because then you start segregating people and it then fails to become equal.

Pierre 08-06-2020 13:40
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038900)
This is the first time that I've even started to move into the subject area of white privilege because it's a viscous area. It's very important however that we understand that the term 'white privilege' is not a synonym from racist.

So, as a bright person why don't you educate yourself? Start with the invisible backpack
The invisible knapsack. I haven’t read it but I have read articles on it. I have a good understanding of what white privilege is, but I don’t think me expressing an opinion on BLM is me exercising that privilege. In fact one of the points about white privilege is that we ( white people) don’t exercise it knowingly because it is inherent in our society.

Again, unfortunately the term white privilege, along with racist and other things have been hijacked and are then used not to encourage debating the issues that need debating but is used to shut down anyone with a contrary point of view.

Quote:
Again, you're always trying with the snide little comments and insults.You really should stop, Your attempts at sneering at individuals whom you believe to be inferior to you detract from your articulate arguments
I don’t think that’s fair but you’re welcome to your opinion

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 13:50
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36038908)
The invisible knapsack. I haven’t read it but I have read articles on it. I have a good understanding of what white privilege is, but I don’t think me expressing an opinion on BLM is me exercising that privilege. In fact one of the points about white privilege is that we ( white people) don’t exercise it knowingly because it is inherent in our society.

Again, unfortunately the term white privilege, along with racist and other things have been hijacked and are then used not to encourage debating the issues that need debating but is used to shut down anyone with a contrary point of view.



I don’t think that’s fair but you’re welcome to your opinion
It's a good place to start, if you haven't (and you may already have) look into unconscious bias also..

So, we agree that white privilege fundamentally exists in the UK. Can we also agree that this has to change?

---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36038906)
You've just stated what I've stated, I'm just saying we don't need slogans that single out one group because then you start segregating people and it then fails to become equal.
No, I haven't at all

Saying 'All lives matter' suggests that efforts should be spread equally. This is not what's needed right now.

Mythica 08-06-2020 13:53
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038913)
It's a good place to start, if you haven't (and you may already have) look into unconscious bias also..

So, we agree that white privilege fundamentally exists in the UK. Can we also agree that this has to change?

---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 ----------



No, I haven't at all

Saying 'All lives matter' suggests that efforts should be spread equally. This is not what's needed right now.
You did.

It suggests that all lives matter and that we are all equal which is what we should be striving for. It doesn't suggest that efforts should be spread equally.

nomadking 08-06-2020 13:58
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36038899)
The Slave Trader Statue of Edward Colston, should have been removed from Bristol a long time ago. That said, I do not agree with the vandalism that took place to remove it yesterday.

It needed to be removed by consent of the local Bristol people.

Those cretins who spray painted Winston Churchill's Memorial Statue in London by crossing out his name and then inserting with graffiti "was a racist", clearly need a lesson in history and on his victory of "the other guy", on beating Hitler, probably the most racist and fascist character, in human history.
But that "consent" would've been a result of bullying.


In Africa, slaves were taken by Black people. Slavery existed in Africa long before the White slave traders turned up. If anything it is the FACT that slavery existed before, that gave the White slave traders the idea in the first place. Not really much evidence around that time in White "western" societies of slavery, before visiting Africa.
Quote:
In East Africa a slave trade was well established before the Europeans arrived on the scene. It was driven by the sultanates of the Middle East.
...
A number of different people -Arabs and Africans - were involved in supplying slaves from the interior, as well as transporting ivory.
Quote:
In Africa there were a number of societies and kingdoms which kept slaves, before there was any regular commercial contact with Europeans, including the Asanti, the Kings of Bonny and Dahomey.
Quote:
In the early 18th century, Kings of Dahomey (known today as Benin) became big players in the slave trade, waging a bitter war on their neighbours, resulting in the capture of 10,000, including another important slave trader, the King of Whydah. King Tegbesu made Ł250,000 a year selling people into slavery in 1750. King Gezo said in the 1840's he would do anything the British wanted him to do apart from giving up slave trade:
Quote:
Indeed there remains a great deal of dispute over the figures for the Arab slave trade. One historian produced a total of 17 million slaves, but this is for a period spanning 13 centuries and encompassing trade in North Africa, the North East and South Africa.
A lot of white people were enslaved, mainly in Islamic countries/areas. The term "White slavery" is not a myth.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 14:08
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038905)
All to often, in various instances, people just blindly latch onto comments by other people, without testing the truth and contradictions behind them.
Eg you can't go around making the ludicrous claims that because of White racism, that it's more dangerous to go out somewhere if you're black, or that more black people are being killed. How can it be White racism, when it's black people responsible for that violence?:confused: Just as in this case, you can't make the claim of racism, as 2 of the officers were not White, and one of them could easily have been the one whose actions may have caused the death(pressure on chest), or by chance been the one restraining the head(to avoid spitting?).



Just about everything is labelled as racist, therefore discrimination in favour of blacks must be imposed. How likely is it that nowadays that people Spielberg, Hitchcock, Scorsese, and so many other White male talents would have stood a chance? There are recent comments that certain TV series(eg Friends) would be more inclusive if made today. Why? Not unreasonable that 5 sets of White people would get together. Plenty of TV series, especially US ones, where the cast is almost exclusively Black, and uses certain words. Nobody bats an eyelid over that.


It is getting unbelievably sinister and scary, if you make the wrong comment, basically your career and life is over. Examples exist of where people have been bullied out, just because they don't support violence and thuggery.:mad:
I believe that you're confusing white privilege with racism. As before white privilege != racism.

I'm going to come back and write a longer reply, your post deserves it.

But there's a few initial points

1) We (and i mean this collectively) need to look at what causes Black on Black violence as Pierre and i were discussion earlier in the thread this is due to socio/economic reasons that are highly complex and need to be untangled.

2) So what if black people use words that white people shouldnt use. If you call your husband/wife 'strumpet' would you be happy for me to do the same? Of course you wouldn't because the relationship is different.

3) With hindsight several programs shouldn't have been made It aint half hot mum & mind your language are just two that i can think of, Fawlty Towers is up there as well. In the past few days Keith Lemon & David Walliams have come out and said they wouldn't make those programs now.

4) Change is scary, of that there's no doubt. but it will happen. History shows us continuously

Finally, why would anyone in their right mind support violence and thuggery ?

---------- Post added at 13:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36038915)
You did.

It suggests that all lives matter and that we are all equal which is what we should be striving for. It doesn't suggest that efforts should be spread equally.
Who needs protection and help where possible most right now?

downquark1 08-06-2020 14:10
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038919)
Finally, why would anyone in their right mind support violence and thuggery
It is a means to power and influence https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqJ9IpWOYQA

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 14:12
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038917)
But that "consent" would've been a result of bullying.


In Africa, slaves were taken by Black people. Slavery existed in Africa long before the White slave traders turned up. If anything it is the FACT that slavery existed before, that gave the White slave traders the idea in the first place. Not really much evidence around that time in White "western" societies of slavery, before visiting Africa.
A lot of white people were enslaved, mainly in Islamic countries/areas. The term "White slavery" is not a myth.
Why would that consent have been a result of bullying?

What does it matter if slavery existed in Africa ? Do you think it somehow justifies Whites enslaving Blacks ?

Mythica 08-06-2020 14:15
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038919)
I believe that you're confusing white privilege with racism. As before white privilege != racism.

I'm going to come back and write a longer reply, your post deserves it.

But there's a few initial points

1) We (and i mean this collectively) need to look at what causes Black on Black violence as Pierre and i were discussion earlier in the thread this is due to socio/economic reasons that are highly complex and need to be untangled.

2) So what if black people use words that white people shouldnt use. If you call your husband/wife 'strumpet' would you be happy for me to do the same? Of course you wouldn't because the relationship is different.

3) With hindsight several programs shouldn't have been made It aint half hot mum & mind your language are just two that i can think of, Fawlty Towers is up there as well. In the past few days Keith Lemon & David Walliams have come out and said they wouldn't make those programs now.

4) Change is scary, of that there's no doubt. but it will happen. History shows us continuously

Finally, why would anyone in their right mind support violence and thuggery ?

---------- Post added at 13:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------



Who needs protection and help where possible most right now?
You're missing the point I'm making. We can give that help under the all lives matter slogan. Using a black lives matter slogan is just potentially segregating people more which is the exact opposite of what needs to be happening.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 14:15
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36038904)
If this is the criteria for historical displays there will be literally no history figure capable of being displayed in this nation. Not Churchhill, not Henry the 8th, not Tony Blair.

Please be very careful about the precedents that are going to be set here.
I submitted that Churchill was not without faults. which bare some relevance whilst not justifying the actions taken.

Pierre 08-06-2020 14:17
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038913)
It's a good place to start, if you haven't (and you may already have) look into unconscious bias also..

So, we agree that white privilege fundamentally exists in the UK. Can we also agree that this has to change?
Of course it exists, all across western society, I don’t think anyone has said otherwise have they?

The West is a predominately white culture, therefore society will reflect that along with other factors. Fear of the other, comfort with familiarity etc.

It has, and is changing, the problem is the change isn’t quick enough, it is generational, and in a country ( I don’t know the % for the western world) that is 90% white the society is inevitably going to be oriented towards that population. It has to be done subtlety or you risk the opposite effect that you are after.

There are plenty of poor disadvantaged white people, that may be asking where their white privilege is? And that is addressed and recognised in the invisible knapsack, and you have take them along with you too, if we’re going to get where we need to be.

To move away from white only images on tv and in shops for years more and more BAME faces have been on TV to change peoples perceptions of the demographic of the nation. I’ll guarantee you there are people in this country that have still never scene a black person in the flesh. But if aliens landed and watched adverts on the tv they’d be convinced the U.K. nuclear family is mixed race. My point being instead having a black family or a family of Chinese decent or Pakistani Muslim decent, they think oh we’ll just throw them all in the mix.

So yes, it has to change, it is changing, it will take a long time, longer than people want, you have to take everyone with you.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 14:26
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36038925)
You're missing the point I'm making. We can give that help under the all lives matter slogan. Using a black lives matter slogan is just potentially segregating people more which is the exact opposite of what needs to be happening.

I'm not missing anything at all.

Using the slogan BLM highlights exactly where the focus of efforts needs to be. BLM does not segregate people nor does it imply that other lives matter less.

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36038928)
Of course it exists, all across western society, I don’t think anyone has said otherwise have they?

The West is a predominately white culture, therefore society will reflect that along with other factors. Fear of the other, comfort with familiarity etc.

It has, and is changing, the problem is the change isn’t quick enough, it is generational, and in a country ( I don’t know the % for the western world) that is 90% white the society is inevitably going to be oriented towards that population. It has to be done subtlety or you risk the opposite effect that you are after.

There are plenty of poor disadvantaged white people, that may be asking where their white privilege is? And that is addressed and recognised in the invisible knapsack, and you have take along with you too, if we’re going to get where we need to be.

To move away from white only images on tv and in shops for years more and more BAME faces have been on TV to change peoples perceptions of the demographic of the nation. I’ll guarantee you there are people in this country that have still never scene a black person in the flesh. But if aliens landed and watched adverts on the tv they’d be convinced the U.K. nuclear family is mixed race. My point being instead having a black family or a family of Chinese decent or Pakistani Muslim decent, they think oh we’ll just throw them all in the mix.

So yes, it has to change, it is changing, it will take a long time, longer than people want, you have to take everyone with you.
That, is a great post.


There's a significant amount of the population who would argue that white privilege doesn't exist. That message has to be drilled home and they have to understand it.

Your bolded part is perhaps one of the most often asked and also most mis construed components.

This change however, needs to be sped up where possible.

pip08456 08-06-2020 14:32
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
It's not Pierre's bolded part, it's yours.

Good luck in drilling home white privilege into underprivileged white people.

Chris 08-06-2020 14:35
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038926)
I submitted that Churchill was not without faults. which bare some relevance whilst not justifying the actions taken.
Indeed.

Also worth pointing out that this nation, having built so much on the profits of slavery, came to its collective senses, as a result of campaigning by its own people, and not only outlawed the practice but then actively sought its interdiction on the high seas via the Royal Navy.

I’m aware of contemporary complaints that the British government put a stop to it by paying off the slavers, and of the argument that it was somehow therefore just another example of rich men feeding money to other rich men, but this is exactly the sort of argument you get from people who don’t understand how to read history. Within the strictures of the time, it was a pragmatic solution and once done, it allowed this country to lead the world in efforts towards abolition.

Churchill, too, was a man of his time. So was Cecil Rhodes, whose statue at Oxford has been subject to ongoing demands for its removal. So, too, was Edward Colston, and for that matter Andrew Buchanan of Glasgow, who made a fortune from tobacco plantations in Virginia (and therefore, out of slave labour), and whose street in the city centre is now subject to demands it be re-named. Decrying any of these men merely as “racist” is ahistorical. Erasing any of them from memory or from history ensures future generations will be ignorant of history and ill-prepared for their own present. What is required is a proper understanding of context, not self-righteous iconoclasm.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 14:35
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36038934)
It's not Pierre's bolded part, it's yours.

Good luck in drilling home white privilege into underprivileged white people.
Underprivileged white people still have more privileges in certain areas than black people.

You're right, it's a monumental effort to make this point understood and be heard


Meanwhile, back in the US

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/08/white...neck-12819943/

pip08456 08-06-2020 14:38
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038937)
Underprivileged white people still have more privileges in certain areas than black people.

You're right, it's a monumental effort to make this point understood and be heard


Meanwhile, back in the US

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/08/white...neck-12819943/
Is that opinion or fact. If fact produce your proof.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 14:44
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36038935)
Indeed.

Also worth pointing out that this nation, having built so much on the profits of slavery, came to its collective senses, as a result of campaigning by its own people, and not only outlawed the practice but then actively sought its interdiction on the high seas via the Royal Navy.

I’m aware of contemporary complaints that the British government put a stop to it by paying off the slavers, and of the argument that it was somehow therefore just another example of rich men feeding money to other rich men, but this is exactly the sort of argument you get from people who don’t understand how to read history. Within the strictures of the time, it was a pragmatic solution and once done, it allowed this country to lead the world in efforts towards abolition.

Churchill, too, was a man of his time. So was Cecil Rhodes, whose statue at Oxford has been subject to ongoing demands for its removal. So, too, was Edward Colston, and for that matter Andrew Buchanan of Glasgow, who made a fortune from tobacco plantations in Virginia (and therefore, out of slave labour), and whose street in the city centre is now subject to demands it be re-named. Decrying any of these men merely as “racist” is ahistorical. Erasing any of them from memory or from history ensures future generations will be ignorant of history and ill-prepared for their own present. What is required is a proper understanding of context, not self-righteous iconoclasm.

We're possibly in agreement but I'm not sure (long morning and not enough coffee) but there's a big difference in a statue giving thanks to a slave trader and to one of Churchill.

The former has absolutely no place in modern society, especially with the inscription that it had. My thinking would be to erect something in replacement such as a monument to the 'unknown slave' in remembrance of the thousands upon thousands that were shipped (with many thousands dying) this would allow subsequent generations to learn the history without celebrating the individual.

---------- Post added at 13:44 ---------- Previous post was at 13:42 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36038938)
Is that opinion or fact. If fact produce your proof.

This is the whole point of white privilege, it's fact (as Pierre agrees) go and read about the invisible backpack/knapsack.

Chris 08-06-2020 14:52
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038939)
We're possibly in agreement but I'm not sure (long morning and not enough coffee) but there's a big difference in a statue giving thanks to a slave trader and to one of Churchill.

The former has absolutely no place in modern society, especially with the inscription that it had. My thinking would be to erect something in replacement such as a monument to the 'unknown slave' in remembrance of the thousands upon thousands that were shipped (with many thousands dying) this would allow subsequent generations to learn the history without celebrating the individual.
They’re not the same by any means, but there’s a spectrum of behaviour they both sit on. Churchill had some views about other races and initiated certain actions in empire territories that really don’t look at all good to modern eyes. Had he not led the country to victory in World War 2 his contribution to society probably wouldn’t be seen in the same way at all.

But mainly I’m lumping them together because of the tendency of certain campaigners to do so, if the vandalising of Churchill’s statue is anything to go by.

I think this suggestion is worth considering:

Quote:
Scotland's first black professor has again called for plaques on Scotland's statues to give a truthful account of their links to the slave trade.
Sir Geoff Palmer, professor emeritus at Heriot-Watt University, said the move could help educate school pupils and change attitudes against racism.
He previously called for a plaque under Edinburgh's Melville Monument, which honours slave owner Henry Dundas.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-52965230

Mythica 08-06-2020 14:53
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038929)
I'm not missing anything at all.

Using the slogan BLM highlights exactly where the focus of efforts needs to be. BLM does not segregate people nor does it imply that other lives matter less.

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------



That, is a great post.


There's a significant amount of the population who would argue that white privilege doesn't exist. That message has to be drilled home and they have to understand it.

Your bolded part is perhaps one of the most often asked and also most mis construed components.

This change however, needs to be sped up where possible.
Well if other lives don't matter less then all lives matter equally.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 14:59
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36038946)
Well if other lives don't matter less then all lives matter
equally.

Whom, or where has it been said that all lives don't matter equally?

For the final time, and i really, really hope you understand this.

Saying 'Black Lives Matter' in no way detracts from 'All Lives Matter' 'Black Lives Matter' is being used to direct attention, people, resources & the spotlight to where they need to be positioned most RIGHT NOW

You're in my neck of the woods. See if this helps


There's a major accident on the A174 involving two lorries and a car. Then there's heavy traffic and a couple of rear end shunts on Acklam Road

Where do you prioritise sending the air ambulance and paramedics too ?

Mythica 08-06-2020 15:18
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038947)
Whom, or where has it been said that all lives don't matter equally?

For the final time, and i really, really hope you understand this.

Saying 'Black Lives Matter' in no way detracts from 'All Lives Matter' 'Black Lives Matter' is being used to direct attention, people, resources & the spotlight to where they need to be positioned most RIGHT NOW
A slogan of black lives matter. If all lives matter equally then all lives matter.

Yes it does. It's ironic that in a world we all need to be equal that we need to have slogans that segregate between us and them. If all lives matter then all lives matter regardless of who is on the other end. Just because all lives matter, doesn't mean we can't concentrate on what is wrong at this moment in time. Let's be one and let's be equal.

---------- Post added at 14:18 ---------- Previous post was at 14:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038947)
Whom, or where has it been said that all lives don't matter equally?

For the final time, and i really, really hope you understand this.

Saying 'Black Lives Matter' in no way detracts from 'All Lives Matter' 'Black Lives Matter' is being used to direct attention, people, resources & the spotlight to where they need to be positioned most RIGHT NOW

You're in my neck of the woods. See if this helps


There's a major accident on the A174 involving two lorries and a car. Then there's heavy traffic and a couple of rear end shunts on Acklam Road

Where do you prioritise sending the air ambulance and paramedics too ?
Does that need answering?

What you don't do, is make a slogan up which states major accidents matter or lorries matter. You start with all lives matter then prioritise who needs help the most.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 15:21
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36038952)
A slogan of black lives matter. If all lives matter equally then all lives matter.

Yes it does. It's ironic that in a world we all need to be equal that we need to have slogans that segregate between us and them. If all lives matter then all lives matter regardless of who is on the other end. Just because all lives matter, doesn't mean we can't concentrate on what is wrong at this moment in time. Let's be one and let's be equal.

---------- Post added at 14:18 ---------- Previous post was at 14:14 ----------



Does that need answering?

What you don't do, is make a slogan up which states major accidents matter or lorries matter. You start with all lives matter then prioritise who needs help the most.

It does, why dont you answer the question rather than dancing around the edges


here's something for you to mull over. 'If EVERYTHING is a priority then NOTHING is a priority'

Sephiroth 08-06-2020 15:22
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038919)
I believe that you're confusing white privilege with racism. As before white privilege != racism.

I'm going to come back and write a longer reply, your post deserves it.

But there's a few initial points

1) We (and i mean this collectively) need to look at what causes Black on Black violence as Pierre and i were discussion earlier in the thread this is due to socio/economic reasons that are highly complex and need to be untangled.

2) So what if black people use words that white people shouldnt use. If you call your husband/wife 'strumpet' would you be happy for me to do the same? Of course you wouldn't because the relationship is different.

3) With hindsight several programs shouldn't have been made It aint half hot mum & mind your language are just two that i can think of, Fawlty Towers is up there as well. In the past few days Keith Lemon & David Walliams have come out and said they wouldn't make those programs now.

4) Change is scary, of that there's no doubt. but it will happen. History shows us continuously

Finally, why would anyone in their right mind support violence and thuggery ?

---------- Post added at 13:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------



Who needs protection and help where possible most right now?
I'm going to single out just one of your enumerated points.
The others are also separate matters, the sum of which conflates to some perceptions of the "problem".

Your view in the highlighted paragraph is a direct challenge to freedom of expression. It is a terrible thing that we have to be afraid of using the terms "Micks", "Jocks", "Frogs", "Krauts" in an appropriate context. Also comedies such as you listed and in particular "Mind your language" unjustifiably provoke shock/horror among the wretched woke community. The woke community want our humour (part of British culture without doubt) to be stunted, a consequence of which could be the extinction of parody as both comedy and political observation.

The "black" case is actually very different. Mistreatment by the Police in particular is a complaint that needs to be resolved by a government actually delivering "levelling up" - if they know how to do it. I suppose that black people resent past exploitation by white people even though it is irrational in the present day context - but there nevertheless. When levelled up, all that will pass.

But some people in this thread are unwise to jump onto the multicultural bandwagon as the black case is one that stands out on its own.

Mythica 08-06-2020 15:25
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038956)
It does, why dont you answer the question rather than dancing around the edges


here's something for you to mull over. 'If EVERYTHING is a priority then NOTHING is a priority'
I don't think you're understanding what I'm writing.

Racism exists, it needs fixing.

Black lives matter.

White lives matter.

Every life matters.

So if all lives matter, but racism still exists, you can prioritise trying to fix racism under all lives matter still rather than making up a slogan of black lives matter and potentially segregating people based on skin colour when the aim is to have us all being equal.

Why can't we fix the problem of black lives matter under all lives matter?

nomadking 08-06-2020 15:42
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038919)
I believe that you're confusing white privilege with racism. As before white privilege != racism.

I'm going to come back and write a longer reply, your post deserves it.

But there's a few initial points

1) We (and i mean this collectively) need to look at what causes Black on Black violence as Pierre and i were discussion earlier in the thread this is due to socio/economic reasons that are highly complex and need to be untangled.

2) So what if black people use words that white people shouldnt use. If you call your husband/wife 'strumpet' would you be happy for me to do the same? Of course you wouldn't because the relationship is different.

3) With hindsight several programs shouldn't have been made It aint half hot mum & mind your language are just two that i can think of, Fawlty Towers is up there as well. In the past few days Keith Lemon & David Walliams have come out and said they wouldn't make those programs now.

4) Change is scary, of that there's no doubt. but it will happen. History shows us continuously

Finally, why would anyone in their right mind support violence and thuggery ?

---------- Post added at 13:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------



Who needs protection and help where possible most right now?
1) Where is the evidence? Eg even very rich rappers get violent. It's just a feeble excuse trotted out. Large areas of the world are poor, yet they're not as violent or aggressive. Strange that.:rolleyes:
2) If allowed behaviour is based upon race, than that is the very definition of RACIST.:rolleyes: Using an example of a jokey term is just ridiculous and deliberately dodges the point. They're not using the words in a personal sense, but often in a general and derogatory manner. If they're using it in a personal manner, why can't everybody use it in a personal manner? Not saying they should, but is unsurprising hypocritical to allow one, but not the other.
3) Caricatures have been made of just about EVERY group, of WHATEVER race. Costumes, comedy characters, fancy dress, etc come from ALL races. NOTHING exclusively anti-non-white about any of it.
4) People HAVE been forced out because they don't support the violent actions. Try publicly criticising it and see what happens. Love to know of examples of where that HASN'T happened.


If Black people need protection, it is from THEMSELVES. The FACTS firmly back that up. White people aren't magically immune from being attacked.



Quote:
Jodhpur cop kneels on neck of man not wearing face mask Jodhpur DCP (West) Priti Chandra said the policeman had acted in self-defence to prevent the man from attacking him.
Was that racist?

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 15:50
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36038957)
I'm going to single out just one of your enumerated points.
The others are also separate matters, the sum of which conflates to some perceptions of the "problem".

Your view in the highlighted paragraph is a direct challenge to freedom of expression. It is a terrible thing that we have to be afraid of using the terms "Micks", "Jocks", "Frogs", "Krauts" in an appropriate context. Also comedies such as you listed and in particular "Mind your language" unjustifiably provoke shock/horror among the wretched woke community. The woke community want our humour (part of British culture without doubt) to be stunted, a consequence of which could be the extinction of parody as both comedy and political observation.

The "black" case is actually very different. Mistreatment by the Police in particular is a complaint that needs to be resolved by a government actually delivering "levelling up" - if they know how to do it. I suppose that black people resent past exploitation by white people even though it is irrational in the present day context - but there nevertheless. When levelled up, all that will pass.

But some people in this thread are unwise to jump onto the multicultural bandwagon as the black case is one that stands out on its own.
Are you seriously trying to justify 'Mind your language' as not racist ?

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038961)
1) Where is the evidence? Eg even very rich rappers get violent. It's just a feeble excuse trotted out. Large areas of the world are poor, yet they're not as violent or aggressive. Strange that.:rolleyes:
2) If allowed behaviour is based upon race, than that is the very definition of RACIST.:rolleyes: Using an example of a jokey term is just ridiculous and deliberately dodges the point. They're not using the words in a personal sense, but often in a general and derogatory manner. If they're using it in a personal manner, why can't everybody use it in a personal manner? Not saying they should, but is unsurprising hypocritical to allow one, but not the other.
3) Caricatures have been made of just about EVERY group, of WHATEVER race. Costumes, comedy characters, fancy dress, etc come from ALL races. NOTHING exclusively anti-non-white about any of it.
4) People HAVE been forced out because they don't support the violent actions. Try publicly criticising it and see what happens. Love to know of examples of where that HASN'T happened.


If Black people need protection, it is from THEMSELVES. The FACTS firmly back that up. White people aren't magically immune from being attacked.



Was that racist?

Black people need protecting from themselves. I've read it all now.



I cant quite believe you've written that utter pile of steaming Mod (Chris) Please behave.

papa smurf 08-06-2020 15:58
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038947)
Whom, or where has it been said that all lives don't matter equally?

For the final time, and i really, really hope you understand this.

Saying 'Black Lives Matter' in no way detracts from 'All Lives Matter' 'Black Lives Matter' is being used to direct attention, people, resources & the spotlight to where they need to be positioned most RIGHT NOW

You're in my neck of the woods. See if this helps


There's a major accident on the A174 involving two lorries and a car. Then there's heavy traffic and a couple of rear end shunts on Acklam Road

Where do you prioritise sending the air ambulance and paramedics too ?
The car with the black people in ???

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 16:00
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038971)
The car with the black people in ???
How do you determine that then? Or, are we going into some sort of pavlovs dog scenario?

papa smurf 08-06-2020 16:02
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038972)
How do you determine that then? Or, are we going into some sort of pavlovs dog scenario?
Black lives matter.

mrmistoffelees 08-06-2020 16:05
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038974)
Black lives matter.
Not to some it would appear

Chris 08-06-2020 16:07
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Can we keep this civil please, and members please don’t try to increase the impact of our moderation by losing your rag with the poster you’ve just reported and then reporting yourself. You know who you are.

In any discussion about race and racism, the topic and the language used is inevitably going to be on the edge. Can we please WRITE carefully, and also READ carefully, and try neither to give offence, nor to take it where none was intended.

Hugh 08-06-2020 16:09
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36038945)
They’re not the same by any means, but there’s a spectrum of behaviour they both sit on. Churchill had some views about other races and initiated certain actions in empire territories that really don’t look at all good to modern eyes. Had he not led the country to victory in World War 2 his contribution to society probably wouldn’t be seen in the same way at all.

But mainly I’m lumping them together because of the tendency of certain campaigners to do so, if the vandalising of Churchill’s statue is anything to go by.

I think this suggestion is worth considering:
Quote:
Scotland's first black professor has again called for plaques on Scotland's statues to give a truthful account of their links to the slave trade.
Sir Geoff Palmer, professor emeritus at Heriot-Watt University, said the move could help educate school pupils and change attitudes against racism.
He previously called for a plaque under Edinburgh's Melville Monument, which honours slave owner Henry Dundas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-52965230
That was what was wanted for the Bristol statue (from February 2018) - this was fought against by a local group, The Society of Merchant Venturers, who say they are commemorating his charity work, rather than his slaving past.
Quote:
The city council is proposing to put a plaque on the statue which will recognise and acknowledge the people Colston and others in the city enslaved.


---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 15:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038972)
How do you determine that then? Or, are we going into some sort of pavlovs dog scenario?
More of a "dog whistle" than "Pavlov's dog"... ;)

Mythica 08-06-2020 16:17
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038978)
Not to some it would appear
And to some people, white lives don't matter. Not sure either relates to anyone on here though.

nomadking 08-06-2020 16:35
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038963)
Are you seriously trying to justify 'Mind your language' as not racist ?

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------




Black people need protecting from themselves. I've read it all now.



I cant quite believe you've written that utter pile of steaming shit. (mods apologies I'll take the warning or the ban) but this needs to be called out.
It is FACT, they they are overwhelming most likely to be attacked or killed by other black people. The overwhelming majority of knife attacks are black on black. Operation Trident in London was started because on black-on-black gun crime.
Was Trevor Philips wrong? Was Diane Abbott wrong for the reason she sent her son away?


Quote:
A 2015 study concluded that murder was the cause of 51.5% of U.S. hip hop musician deaths. The study noted that this figure refers primarily to premature deaths as most hip hop musicians have not yet lived long enough to fall into the highest-risk ages for heart- and liver-related illnesses.
Looking at 2016 FBI figures for single victim/single offender murder cases(ie would tend to exclude gang-related crime), a White person is getting on for twice as likely to be killed by a black person, than a black person by a white person(15% vs 8.5%). So who's more at risk, and from whom? If you add gang-related crime into that, the difference would be a lot greater.
Quote:
3 Apr 2020 - Of the more than three hundred people killed in the streets of Baltimore last year, just about all of them were African Americans.
Quote:
The researchers surveyed about 900 Black Americans in 2013 regarding their emotions and attitudes about punishment for violent crimes. Before completing the survey, the participants read one of five fictitious news articles about a murder and subsequent arrest. The articles varied the race of the victim and perpetrator.
Burge and Johnson found that the participants supported harsher punishments for criminals when the perpetrator was White. Specifically, participants who read about White perpetrators were more likely to agree with the statement, “The best way to deal with violent crimes is to dramatically increase prison terms for people who commit violent crimes.”
Black people also reported feeling the angriest when the victim and perpetrator were both Black, followed by when the victim was Black and the perpetrator was White. Similarly, the participants reported feeling the most shame when the perpetrator and the victim were both Black, followed by when the perpetrator was Black and the victim was White.
They were more angry at white-on-black violence, than on-white violence. Being angry about black-on-black violence doesn't mean they express that in any way, other than saying so for a study.

Pierre 08-06-2020 22:24
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038919)
3) With hindsight several programs shouldn't have been made It aint half hot mum & mind your language are just two that i can think of, Fawlty Towers is up there as well. In the past few days Keith Lemon & David Walliams have come out and said they wouldn't make those programs now.
You can’t look back and apply today’s standards to historical shows, what you should do is rejoice at how far we have come. But it has taken a generation. Those programmes were made by people born in the ‘40’s, today’s programmes are made by those born in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s.

I watched Trading Places the other week, the much beloved Eddie Murphy comedy and there things in that , racially and sexually, that would not be tolerated today.

Paul 08-06-2020 22:59
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Well if this topic is anything to go by, BLM has clearly caused a lot of division, perhaps even made things worse than if it didnt exist.

Going around looting, rioting, and breaking SD rules in the middle of a pandemic is not going to get you much support. That's all the majority of people will remember.

Damien 08-06-2020 23:18
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36039050)
Well if this topic is anything to go by, BLM has clearly caused a lot of division, perhaps even made things worse than if it didnt exist.
A cause like Black Lives Matter was always going to cause division, I think it's advocates knew that. However sometimes you have to have those battles, it's not as if the issues they're campaigning about would have been addressed it they just left it alone either.

Maggy 08-06-2020 23:22
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36039053)
A cause like Black Lives Matter was always going to cause division, I think it's advocates knew that. However sometimes you have to have those battles, it's not as if the issues they're campaigning about would have been addressed it they just left it alone either.
:clap:

Sephiroth 09-06-2020 00:59
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038963)
Are you seriously trying to justify 'Mind your language' as not racist ?

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

Definition of racist:

Quote:
A person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
"Mind Your Language" very skilfully and without being offensive pitched an Indian character alongside a Pakistani character in the setting of a language class. Quite brilliant actually.

It's so easy for people to jump on a bandwagon and describe past comedy that happened to have one or other ethnic angle as racist. Such people should be better thinkers.

Paul 09-06-2020 04:02
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
'Mind Your Language' is apparently still popular in some countries

Quote:
Even though the series was cancelled in 1979, it continues to be popular overseas, particularly in the countries represented in the series onscreen.
I remember I watched a few episodes at the time of its original run.
It was mildly funny at times, but not overly funny, it was certainly not racist.

TheDaddy 09-06-2020 08:05
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36038980)
please don’t try to increase the impact of our moderation by losing your rag with the poster you’ve just reported and then reporting yourself.
:rofl:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36039059)
'Mind Your Language' is apparently still popular in some countries



I remember I watched a few episodes at the time of its original run.
It was mildly funny at times, but not overly funny, it was certainly not racist.
I work with a lot of Africans and some of them love Mind Your Language, I've been forced to watch a couple of episodes and it hasn't aged well, it's almost childlike in places

figgyburn 09-06-2020 10:47
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
https://disrn.com/news/monument-hono...matter-rioters

Nuff said.

Rexz 09-06-2020 11:17
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by figgyburn (Post 36039070)
You don't have to follow BLM to be against racism. I for one do not condone violence or destruction and from what I am hearing from people who support BLM regarding public property or violence then it it not a movement I could support. Doesn't make me a racist though.

tweetiepooh 09-06-2020 12:14
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
If you believe the Hollywood depictions that probably have some truth in them then there is inequality and black people have to work harder to achieve the same level of "promotion" than whites do. But then those that do succeed seem to suffer as giving in to the white society. While some positions are filled by non-whites to fulfil racial quotas most get their because they have worked for it.

While it's good to celebrate diversity it seems that some minority groups want to impose their culture on the majority. This does have some justification if the majority have tried to quash the minority in order to preserve the minority culture but any attempt to impose by force (physical or otherwise) just creates climates of hostility.

In the end though this is all a heart issue. You can change the law, put money in, try to teach and these all are good but unless you change heart attitudes this will always be there. The strong will seek to dominate the weak and with fight against attempts to lessen their hold. The "gangs" do not want to see peace and equality because their strength is lessened. Linked to that is that institutions like the police do attract those who want to impose their authority over others and those can be those that do well at a low level but can't get promoted because checks show that attitude as being unsuitable to have more authority, this can lead to dissatisfaction perception of injustice and this may work out in aggression outwards.

Hugh 09-06-2020 12:14
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36038986)
And to some people, white lives don't matter. Not sure either relates to anyone on here though.
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1591697660

Sephiroth 09-06-2020 12:33
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36039078)
<SNIP>

While it's good to celebrate diversity it seems that some minority groups want to impose their culture on the majority. This does have some justification if the majority have tried to quash the minority in order to preserve the minority culture but any attempt to impose by force (physical or otherwise) just creates climates of hostility.

<SNIP>
I'd like to home in on the highlighted bit.

"Black" citizens as per the BLM cause do not want to impose their culture on the majority. They just don't want to be victimised by the majority.

But there is at least one other minority group, rapidly growing in size, that doesn't do multi-culture and, through its enforcers, would ultimately be intolerant of dissenters.

What I have pointed out gets swept under the carpet and whilst I have no doubt that the BLM movement's requirements are capable of being met without detriment to the British culture (such as it is), intolerant minority groups of growing size are a real threat for our culture.

Chris 09-06-2020 12:36
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
I’m trying really hard (and failing) to think of any examples of black culture being forced on me ...

Damien 09-06-2020 12:41
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Minority culture can only work it's way into the mainstream culture if it's popular enough to do so. It can't force a way through.

Sephiroth 09-06-2020 12:51
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36039082)
I’m trying really hard (and failing) to think of any examples of black culture being forced on me ...
I hope you've understood me correctly.

I said:

Quote:
"Black" citizens as per the BLM cause do not want to impose their culture on the majority. They just don't want to be victimised by the majority.


---------- Post added at 11:51 ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36039083)
Minority culture can only work it's way into the mainstream culture if it's popular enough to do so. It can't force a way through.
Except through higher birth rate.

tweetiepooh 09-06-2020 12:58
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Never said blacks imposing culture or was an aim of BLM it is true that it can happen and movements like BLM or it's aims can be hijacked for those purposes.

We do need to address the issues of racism in our institutions (can't do much on a personal level). And we do need to make sure that all people can take advantage of all opportunities. We Brits are pretty good at taking onboard other cultures but could still be better.

Taf 09-06-2020 13:11
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
3 Attachment(s)
Filmed during the BLM protest in London. Someone didn't realise that the symbol they were spraying onto buses, t shirts and bags is a white supremacist logo.

*Unable to attach the video as this site only allows tiny 1Mb WMV files*

Pierre 09-06-2020 14:10
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36039082)
I’m trying really hard (and failing) to think of any examples of black culture being forced on me ...
Apart from Snoop Doggy Dog, me too!

Sephiroth 09-06-2020 14:35
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36039087)
Never said blacks imposing culture or was an aim of BLM it is true that it can happen and movements like BLM or it's aims can be hijacked for those purposes.

We do need to address the issues of racism in our institutions (can't do much on a personal level). And we do need to make sure that all people can take advantage of all opportunities. We Brits are pretty good at taking onboard other cultures but could still be better.
I'm profoundly disturbed at the goings on.

The UK is nowhere near the same state of discrimination (and its consequences) as the USA. Yet the "knee on neck" event has morphed into a sort of violent "me too".

You talk about not taking over our culture. But our culture is evolution from our history, including the stages when we engaged in the slave trade. But the essence of our culture is attacked when Churchill is daubed as a racist; where the poxy lefty students no platform people because they aren't poxy lefties. Remember we abolished slavery long before the USA so the cases are nowhere near the same. Yet out on the streets they promptly came to breach the peace.

The assault on our culture has to be as attacked as the further evolution away from any injustices that remain which will be a slow process as there is no quick fix.

Damien 09-06-2020 14:55
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36039093)
Apart from Snoop Doggy Dog, me too!
The only culture I have ever had imposed upon me was Ed Sheeran.

Every radio station there he is.
Walking around shopping he is playing on the store sound system.
Open Apple Music or Spotify, they want you to listen to Ed Sheeran.
Watch Game of Thrones? There is Ed Sheeran.
Walk downstairs, he is sitting in your living room.

He is everywhere. It's awful. I just want it to stop.

---------- Post added at 13:55 ---------- Previous post was at 13:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36039096)
You talk about not taking over our culture. But our culture is evolution from our history, including the stages when we engaged in the slave trade. But the essence of our culture is attacked when Churchill is daubed as a racist; where the poxy lefty students no platform people because they aren't poxy lefties. Remember we abolished slavery long before the USA so the cases are nowhere near the same. Yet out on the streets they promptly came to breach the peace.

The assault on our culture has to be as attacked as the further evolution away from any injustices that remain which will be a slow process as there is no quick fix.
I would say overzealous 'lefties' at universities is a long-standing part of the culture too. These people are a minority though. Even at Universities, the more radical ones are in a minority.

I don't think you'll find many students who would approve of vandalising the Chruchill statue either. That's the more radical element making themselves known along with a few fellow travellers who get a bit intoxicated by the energy of the protest. The concept of Churchill being a racist will get wider acceptance but not attacking the statue.

Sephiroth 09-06-2020 15:14
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36039097)
<SNIP>

I would say overzealous 'lefties' at universities is a long-standing part of the culture too. These people are a minority though. Even at Universities, the more radical ones are in a minority.

I don't think you'll find many students who would approve of vandalising the Chruchill statue either. That's the more radical element making themselves known along with a few fellow travellers who get a bit intoxicated by the energy of the protest. The concept of Churchill being a racist will get wider acceptance but not attacking the statue.
The problem with what you've said is that this is the thin edge of the wedge.

No platforming is a very dangerous affront because it prevents impressionable students from hearing other views that what the lefty hierarchy want them to hear. Such zealots often make the top of the Students Union tree or other levers of student power.

The scale of damage done by demonstrators trying to eradicate our history goes beyond the scale of the problem.

We have spent decades bending over backwards for the minorities and it's always the ethnic Brits who are the baddies, the institutionalist racists. The assault on our culture is real.

Hugh 09-06-2020 15:44
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36039103)
The problem with what you've said is that this is the thin edge of the wedge.

No platforming is a very dangerous affront because it prevents impressionable students from hearing other views that what the lefty hierarchy want them to hear. Such zealots often make the top of the Students Union tree or other levers of student power.

The scale of damage done by demonstrators trying to eradicate our history goes beyond the scale of the problem.

We have spent decades bending over backwards for the minorities and it's always the ethnic Brits who are the baddies, the institutionalist racists. The assault on our culture is real.
They don't want to eradicate our history, they would just like a less whitewashed version of it...

Our culture has always been about adapting and including - cultures grow, because if they get static, they decay; you know, cultural institutions like tea (from India), curries (mostly from Bangladesh), Punch and Judy (Italian), the Women's Institute (Canada), the C of E (breakaway from the RC church), our Royalty (Sax-Coburg-Gotha), the English Language (Latin and Germanic roots), etc., etc.

Every culture is an amalgam of the cultures around it combined with their own particular cultural experience and history

downquark1 09-06-2020 15:48
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36039107)
They don't want to eradicate our history, they would just like a less whitewashed version of it...
Can you offer specifics?

Carth 09-06-2020 15:55
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36039107)
They don't want to eradicate our history, they would just like a less whitewashed version of it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36039108)
Can you offer specifics?
I'm not even sure he's allowed to use the word 'whitewashed'?

anyway, history is history, if you start taking the bits out that you don't like, it becomes a fairy tale ;)

downquark1 09-06-2020 15:58
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Everyone whitewashing their history, the Romanians have a must higher opinion of Vlad the impaler than they do of Winston Churchill.

That doesn't make it OK, but never give anyone a blank cheque to rewrite your history.

BenMcr 09-06-2020 17:36
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36039109)
anyway, history is history, if you start taking the bits out that you don't like, it becomes a fairy tale ;)
It's not about taking bits out, it's about adding facts of history that weren't in 'recorded' history before.

Sephiroth 09-06-2020 17:42
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36039107)
They don't want to eradicate our history, they would just like a less whitewashed version of it...

Our culture has always been about adapting and including - cultures grow, because if they get static, they decay; you know, cultural institutions like tea (from India), curries (mostly from Bangladesh), Punch and Judy (Italian), the Women's Institute (Canada), the C of E (breakaway from the RC church), our Royalty (Sax-Coburg-Gotha), the English Language (Latin and Germanic roots), etc., etc.

Every culture is an amalgam of the cultures around it combined with their own particular cultural experience and history
Yours seems to be an altruistic view of what's just happened in Bristol and London.

The Colston statue dumped into the estuary smacks of an eradication to me.
Branding Churchill as a racist smacks of rewriting hiustory, to me.

You list a range of cultural importations. Let me list some more:

Gangs (Albanian); knife crime (Somalia); begging (Romania).



---------- Post added at 16:42 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36039116)
It's not about taking bits out, it's about adding facts of history that weren't in 'recorded' history before.
What? What's being added that wasn't there before?

BenMcr 09-06-2020 17:48
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36039117)
What? What's being added that wasn't there before?
Well here's an example
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ufmann-history
Quote:
Africans were already known to have likely been living in Roman Britain as soldiers, slaves or even free men and women. But Kaufmann shows that, by Tudor times, they were present at the royal courts of Henry VII, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I and James I, and in the households of Sir Walter Raleigh and William Cecil
It doesn't take away anything that we already know about the Tudor period, but adds to our understanding. But it would have likely been excluded in later history records as didn't align to the views expressed within society at the time.

papa smurf 09-06-2020 18:00
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
It seems some idiot has decided we need a BLM protest in cleethorpes this weekend, should be interesting.

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/n...t-held-4201906

Sephiroth 09-06-2020 18:22
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36039120)
Well here's an example
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ufmann-history

It doesn't take away anything that we already know about the Tudor period, but adds to our understanding. But it would have likely been excluded in later history records as didn't align to the views expressed within society at the time.
Oh please, Ben. On that basis people might argue that we're really Italian, or Danish, or Celtic or whatever.

By all means add that stuff into History syllabuses but do please recognise that these demonstrators nor any ethnic group should be allowed to eradicate already written factual history.


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