Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

AMC will never be on VM, BT are still miffed at VM over VMs childish behaviour regarding Eiresport.

---------- Post added at 13:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:49 ----------

Agree i found myself watching Netflix over xmas.

---------- Post added at 13:51 ---------- Previous post was at 13:50 ----------

Imo only BBC made a effort out of the big 4 even BBC was hit n miss for me only Doctor who, a Christmas carol gone wrong and MRS Browns boys were worth watching.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Same here.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

---------- Post added at 15:26 ---------- Previous post was at 15:22 ----------

Sorry not sure what happened to my post above,seems to of got mixed in with the quote!
PS I don't have Netflix so didn't watch it over Christmas!

---------- Post added at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:26 ----------

Sorry don't know what I did there,my post got mixed in with the quote!
PS I don't have Netflix so consequently didn't watch over Christmas!

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Has happened to me before, gremlins probably.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Yes that's probably it.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Or too much bevvy lol..............:beer:

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

You got me banged to rights!:D

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Maybe, +1's get better ratings when situated next to their parent channel, so maybe E! don't think that it will continue to be financially viable when Sky move the timeshift channels.

Not sure if Sky have the hayu app, if so perhaps they believe that viewers can use the app instead of the +1 channel?? They can then reuse the slot or sell it off as SD slots are pretty valuable.

I wonder if VM will follow suit and put all the +1's together in their own section?

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Sky Q only has 3 non Sky apps so far and they are Red Bull TV , VEVO and YouTube.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Media Boy EXCLUSIVE: Virgin Media UK update WorldBox for 2018.

Russian Channel Bestseller is no longer on WorldBox in the Russian package.
But Russian Channel RTVi is set to launch soon in the Russian package on WorldBox.

©copyright 2018 Media Boy 2006 - 2018. An ''Keep it real and free'' Production.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

5Prime has been put on hold as Viacom have a rethink.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

What an exclusive scoop :D:D

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Its alright as that is just the starter to the main dish.:D

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

It's a shame that they don't have channels from South East Asia for my Indonesian wife.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I wouldn't rule it out, though. AMC itself may decide that it will no longer offer exclusivity to BT due to its poor viewing figures under that arrangement.

Additionally, I would expect relationships between BT and VM to improve over time, just as the Sky/VM spats are a thing of the past.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Hmm! it was an odd choice of name, also describing 5Prime as a premium channel, even though it was to have been FTA just added to the confusion. Back to the drawing board...

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I agree. They haven't given an official reason as to why, but there's unverified speculation that someone has objected to the name. Amazon Prime??

---------- Post added at 23:03 ---------- Previous post was at 22:28 ----------

Just had a look on the web; aparently, 5Prime's launch has been put on hold until the Spring and will no longer be called 5Prime. Viacom are rethinking both the strategy and the look.

Perhaps they're thinking of calling it Paramount instead (though their branding seems to suggest that they want their channels to be prefixed by 5).

http://www.a516digital.com/2018/01/p...me-launch.html

https://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/chann...125268.article

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Can't see what all the fuss is about, it's just another rubbish +1 channel!

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

5* wrestling claim freesports is coming. Is this old news?

"FreeSports is a brand new channel here in the UK that can be found for FREE on FreeView, Sky, FreeSat, BT, TalkTalk TV and very soon on Virgin Media, making 5 Star Wrestling programming available in over 22 million homes across the country."

I thought it was connected to 5* the channel rather than just a random name. Quite odd!

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Wrestling magazines in the States have rated wrestling matches and events on a 5 star basis for decades. Maybe it's a reference to that? "If you want 5 star matches tune into 5* Wrestling"

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Freesport are in talks with VM but VM are allegedly asking for too much money, no doubt something will get sorted.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

l won't call it rubbish but lets just say its not for me.:)

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

For anyone interested, this was the first 4 days of the TV schedule for 5Prime:

Tue 16
7pm GPs: Behind Closed Doors
8pm The Yorkshire Vet
9pm The Yorkshire Vet Casebook NEW
10pm The Secret Life of Owls NEW
11pm Alaska: A Year in the Wild

Wed 17
7pm GPs: Behind Closed Doors
8pm The Yorkshire Vet
9pm World War I in Colour NEW
10pm Secrets of the Tube: Going Underground
11pm Secrets of Great British Castles

Thu 18
7pm GPs: Behind Closed Doors
8pm The Yorkshire Vet
9pm Striking Out NEW
10pm Film: Dallas Buyers Club

Fri 19
7pm GPs: Behind Closed Doors
8pm The Yorkshire Vet
9pm All New Traffic Cops
10pm The Tube: Going Underground
11pm Restless Legs Syndrome Desperate for Help

As you can see, it's very much My5 with a new brand and new shows added so I wouldn't be suprised if they go ahead with this schedule under the existing My5 brand irrespective of them not launching it as 5Prime.

I think the last minute change is quite likely to be down to an objection from Amazon about the use of Prime for it.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I really can't see how Amazon can object words like "primetime, prime" etc have been around long before Amazon came on the scene, i think it's most likely down to ceos who can't make their mind up.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Maybe they were advised that to use the word 'prime' could amount to false advertising!!

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Well there is plenty of false advertising every day on ones TV.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

In which case, perhaps we can expect them to launch in March as 5subprime. ;)

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

They can legitimately object if they already have a registered trademark in a similar area of business. It's common for existing words to be trademarked.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I hadnt thought of that! I thought it was channel 5 launching a wrestling show to compete with ITV (not that ever took off!) haha how foolish of me. Yes that makes total sense now!

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

It does now appear to be the case that it's the name that is the problem as Viacom have confirmed that the content and nature of the channel will remain the same.

---------- Post added at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------

The 'Made In' local TV channels are now only broadcasting one version on satellite, with every local channel name pointing to the one feed. Every local news bulletin is being shown one after the other for the six areas.

DTT is continuing as normal.

Does anyone know where VM get their feed from? Just wondering what the score is on cable.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

a516Digital is reporting that the feed Virgin Media UK is broadcasting is the same as Freeview.

http://www.a516digital.com/2018/01/m...iew-local.html

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

A very, very, long time coming but all of the CBS channels are now available on all packages on a permanent basis, according to the new 2018 Channel Guide:

http://www.virginmedia.com/content/d..._JAN2018v2.pdf
http://www.virginmedia.com/content/d..._JAN2018v2.pdf

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

So they should be! I really hope you guys on VM get all the freeview channels on all packages.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

New deal?

Maybe CBS Action +1 will launch soon.

---------- Post added at 22:14 ---------- Previous post was at 21:48 ----------

Also Times Now and NDTV 24x7 has both been removed from Sky as of time of posting.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Thanks, looks like VM must take their feed from Freeview.

---------- Post added at 03:55 ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 ----------

Just checked and NDTV 24×7 is still broadcasting on VM, perhaps they've not paid this month's Sky EPG bill- not looking good.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Odd that NDTV24x7 was still on my SkyQ this morning - seems to take a while for some channels to actually vanish.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

It was taken off, but had returned again by the time you looked this morning!

Radio Cymru 2 is now testing on satellite, so we should be seeing something on VM soon.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Cripes, the Welsh have advanced since I was last there. Indoor toilets were a luxury.... ;)

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Really don't find this at all funny in each I feel this is racist

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

No it is an occasional a fault on some SkyQ boxes when channel updates do not happen until after the next rebnoot.

It was still there when it should not have been. It went after a reboot and came back correctly in the afternoon.

---------- Post added at 10:22 ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 ----------

The test on satellite is of the existing Radio Cymru.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

They'll be testing the broadcast chain in readiness for the actual launch of Radio Cymru 2 (there's only three hours that will be different in any event, even after its launched!)

I guess VM will add it to their system in due course to test things out, so if a new unamed Welsh radio station appears off the EPG or in any scans I think it will almost certainly be this.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

No disrespect Richard, but do you seriously think anyone gives a toss about a Welsh radio station?

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Hallmark looking to launch Hallmark movies in uk on the 3 major pay tv platforms. I imagine by that they mean Sky, vm and BT.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

It will be a very niche channel, so I doubt that many will be interested in its content.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Not if it's broadcast in Welsh. I don't believe that there are many Welsh speaking people living in England and Scotland.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Media Boy HQ has seen on a516digital that BBC Radio Cymru 2 will NOT launch on Virgin Media UK from January 29th.

BBC Radio Cymru 2 will only appear on Sky, Freesat, Freeview and DAB Radio in Wales.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Saw this and thought it might be of interest to you all. Although just for Ireland interesting to speculate what this might mean going forward.

https://www.sportbusiness.com/sport-...dia-television

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

It'll be sold off soon then.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

What makes you think that?.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Just going by history mate they may use this as a bargaining chip maybe in Ireland to get Eiresport at a better price.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Whilst the article doesn't mention VM one way or the other, it would be odd for it to not appear on VM as I believe that all BBC channels are classed as PSB 'must carry' on cable.

I doubt it would be in Wales only either as the BBC (when they stopped encrypting all their channels) once said that one of the reasons for doing his is that they see no reason why eg a Scottish person living in London shouldn't be able to listen to content from home.

http://www.a516digital.com/2018/01/b...o-receive.html

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

That article also says that Cymru 2 will NOT be in the Sky EPG outside Wales.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

BBC Alba is not available in my area.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

...and Freesat too (outside Wales), though this can be resolved by inputting a Welsh postcode. As such, maybe they will only be adding this for VM customers in Wales??

I wonder if this is a BBC cost-cutting measure, seeing as the only difference will be for three hours in a morning??

---------- Post added at 22:33 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------

I thought that this was available nationwide on channel 161??

---------- Post added at 23:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:33 ----------

According to someone on Boards.ie, TV3 group have registered domains for Virgin TV One, Two and Three.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I wish it wasn't in mine..........:rolleyes:

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Hold onto your hats the weather channel are rumoured to be launching a app for the v6 this year.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

My apologies, Richard, so it is! :dunce:

I don't know how long that's been there, I've not noticed it before. Perhaps it's because I mainly use the HD section of the EPG.

---------- Post added at 07:54 ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 ----------

Not before time! I do hope Virgin will do much more in relation to apps this year.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

How much is Sky Cinema in HD on VM these days ?

Do You think it represents value for money ?

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

BBC Alba moved to 161 a year or so back but was on VM for a long time before then.

You get the occasional good programme on BBC Alba - they ran so original BBC-tv Dr. Finlay's Casebook episodes in the last couple of years.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

France 24 (FRENCH) SD has closed but France 24 has lauch an HD channel on Virgin UK Channel 832.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

l think the HD charge is around £8 MM.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

There is no HD charge on Sky Movies now , I believe it changed at the beginning of last year. Sky sports still has HD tax on it.;)

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I dare say it will be UHD that will attract a premium charge now, with HD being viewed as standard.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I was actually meaning the total price for Sky Cinema on Virgin in HD.

I was asking as I generally find the Sky Cinema offering poor these days and the amount of good movies coming out of Hollywood is few and far between.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I saw something on dspy which suggests freesat are launching a uhd service of some sort.http://www.a516digital.com/2018/01/f...o-protect.html

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Just checked and it's available on M+ like the SD version. Given this is a news channel shouldn't it be in the low 600s like the others?

Also makes NHKWorldHD not being available on lower level packages look increasingly daft. It's FTA on satellite.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

There is plenty of choice and we still use it. As you say the content mirrors what comes out of Hollywood, its all a matter of taste. There are a lot of classic movies available, which I personally enjoy.
I cannot remember the cost per month as its part of my package , I did ask about dropping it ,but the amount saved was negligible

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

No, because its the French language version.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Good point. Silly me. :)

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I hadn't had it since 2001, but was recently given it free for two months. I made a point of checking every film on every channel during this period, to see if it was worth subscribing again. During this period there was one film that I really enjoyed and about 4 or 5 that were ok. The rest were either old films available on other channels of not my taste.

After the free period ended, I was offered it for half price at £10.50, so the full price must be £21. I declined because I didn't think it was worth it even at half price!

---------- Post added at 21:47 ---------- Previous post was at 20:40 ----------

An interesting development, does anyone know which pack/EPG number it was on in SD?

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I'm not sure it is that much - just ended my discounted 1st year with full tv, 200mb broadband, phone and 2 v6 boxes - price went through the roof, removing sky cinema only saved me around £9pm.

However, what they neglected to tell me was by removing movie channels I also lost the sports channels in HD - to restore them cost me almost as much as movies. I went ballistic and was offered the HD sports channels FOC for a year.

It all seems vague - not really sure I am getting a good deal even now.

I have to say if the prices do increase in April, as suggested, I am likely to abandon ship and revert to sky.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I have Sky Cinema in HD but don't get Sky Sports in HD. HD is at no extra cost for the Film channel's but not for the sport alas.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I found there was so few of the new Premieres each month we were watching I now just pick and choose and use the rental route or the buy and keep you'd be amazed the discounts out there if you use multiple services.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

BBC Alba was on vm when the channel 1st launched in the 00's!

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

What, in gaelic?

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Just checked and it is £21 a month. Maybe you only saved about £9 a month because changing your package resulted in you losing previous discounts that were applied??

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Dr Finlay's Casebook was broadcast with the original English soundtrack - no dubbing.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Are we getting any more new channels coming to virgin media this year?

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

No.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Possibly, although that was supposed to be off the non-discounted price.

As I said in previous post, it is difficult to see what the standard price is.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Apps rather than channels probably.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I hope so! Amazon and WWE network can't be too hard to port over surely! Youtube and netflix are great on the V6

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

BBC Alba was launched on 19 September 2008 but some shows was added on Virgin Media via BBC iPlayer from launch but BBC Alba did launch in Scotland on Virgin Media May 18th 2011.

http://mediaboyblog.blogspot.co.uk/2...virgin-as.html

Then Virgin Media added S4C and BBC Alba to all areas in November 2012.

http://mediaboyblog.blogspot.co.uk/2...on-virgin.html

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------

Not been given any information on any more channels testing as of December 2017.

Some new channels may launch by end of 2018.

Calling JJ20X where are you?

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Amazon with HDR would be good - although would be a premium option.

WWE Network would be nice also.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Given that VM have embraced Netflix, I really find it hard to understand why it is that we haven't got more apps.

Clearly, Amazon has thrown up some issues because it now includes some Amazon channels that duplicate what is on VM, but if the app is only made available to 'Full House' subscribers who pay VM for the duplicate channels in their packages, I fail to see what the problem is.

Streaming is the future (though some may opt out) and Virgin need to embrace it fully so that all these services are available on their box. That would be their USP, together with their fast broadband service.

Hopefully, 2018 will start to bring all this to fruition, with UHD coming to us through these services and also by way of on demand.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I thought this was the whole point of the tivo v6. Virgin Media are usually so lazy and don't really do anything unless they have to. Yet they launched a superior product to Sky Q (in my eyes), brag about their broadband speeds being so great but don't actually take advantage of the tivo v6.

i assume laziness has set in again rather than exploiting the quality of the v6 and their broadband speeds by offering a wide range of apps. How can amazon reject it?

"hey amazon will you let us offer your app on our tivo so people can buy and watch your shows?"
"no...we dont want to make money"

Has to be laziness or cheap virgin since liberty rammed in and decided "lets increase prices massively above inflation each year but never try to challenge other services"

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I can assure you from various review sources the SKYQ is far superior to the V6, the v6 is a cracking bit of kit though but nowhere near the level of SKYQ.
As for broadband another thing vm are starting to fall behind on with companies like hyperoptic, gigaclear having 1gbs service and BT, Talktalk and SKY rolling out 330mbs too.
Although i was chatting to a vm engineer today just a passing chat he was cabling up a neighbour and i asked him about vms bb and he said they're trialing faster speeds but he not allowed to say what.
I think it's the 1gbs i mentioned at the final quarter of last year.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

The thing is mate you don't really need those really high speeds to get a decent stream, this is why I think that Sky will come out on top when they introduce Sky Q, without the need for a big ugly dish on the outside of your house.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

This is true mate, i get perfectly solid 1080p streams on my 38mbs connection, this also streams my gaming from both pc and ps4 to twitch with no problems at all.
Also it's perfectly fine for live sports aka nbcsport, espn i get the full 1080p quality stream with loads of bandwidth left to play with.
However i think big households who use a lot of devices would certainly benefit from high speeds, but my 38mbs is fine for me on my own and i'm a pro gamer.
When SKYQ online comes this year 38mbs will be perfectly fine for it in small households, most people will be fine with the 80mbs too.
Although info we have is all fibre isps that use Openreaches network are going to move 38mbs to 52mbs anyway over the next 2 years.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Sky Q and the V6 both do much the same thing, so I don't believe the reviews that put the Sky Q ahead. I do think the Sky Q UI is better, but that's not the fault of the V6.

The main difference that I can see is that whereas you get a V6 for every room so you have your own recordings on each box, which are all linked together, with the Sky Q you have these mini-boxes which take their recordings from just one box.

What are the other significant differences?

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Although the lack of HD OnDemand with Sky Sports/Cinema is a bit of a bugbear. Granted with the sports, live broadcast channels are the main thing - and with cinema, it's always better to record films to watch at convenience (and not get caught with tuner clashes) than rely on OD... But there does seem to be less and less Sky HD content available as time goes on.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

I bookmark all my films now rather than record them as they take up too much room on my box and I end up deleting them because we tend to watch TV series rather than films most of the time.

I couldn't do this with the Tivo because of the lack of tuners, as you say, but this is not a problem with the V6.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Sky Atlantic :p: (sorry i had too bud hehe) Skyq has 2tb or 1tb storage although as i reported awhile back 2tb is supposed to be coming to the v6 this year.
SKYQ 2tb only i think has live UHD content v6 does not yet.

However drifting off a bit from skyq here one thing i applaud VM for is their tvplayer it is superb, skys skygo is pathetic.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Well, with two boxes, you do get 2TB, the same as a Sky Q box with one or two mini-boxes.

As for Sky Atlantic and UHD content, these are not V6 issues.

From what I have seen (and both my daughters have Sky Q), the capability of both the V6 and the Sky Q are very similar indeed.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Media boy my information is different. However I notice you keep saying stv AD is testing and will be available in Scotland. STV doesn’t cover the whole of SCOTLAND. Text book error.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Interesting OB, both are no doubt cracking pieces of kit until SKY and VM bugger them up with a dodgy software update lol.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

January updates have been a little slow with some of the scan support team down with the flu, although not much has actually happened.

Frequency changes took place in Carlisle, then Birmingham TDN and, most recently, in Poole.

SID 3904 France 24 (French) HD was detected but had already replaced SID 1505 FRANCE24 (FRANCAIS) by the time the scan data had been processed. It was quite a rapid change by VM standards.

SID 1813 The Community Channel has been rebranded as Together, as expected.

No major developments so far this year.

Placeholder services SID 654 BBC Three SD, SID 952 Bike, SID 3984 Sky Ocean Rescue HD & SID 4051 BBC Three HD have all been removed from the SDT & the NIT.

---------- Post added at 02:00 ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 ----------

That would be an interesting point if ITV Border Scotland was available on any of VM's Scottish regional networks, but it isn't.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Why would they bugger it up? as generally both their software updates over the years have gone pretty well.

Re: Coming Soon to Virgin TV (2018)
 

Is TCC still on Freeview for two hours, or has Together replaced that too?