Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

if memory serves jezza had a full blown rebellion on his hands the front bench was empty at one time or another ;)

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Oh yes, that's right. It suited him. That'll be those famous 'principles' in action again eh?... :rolleyes:


Neither side has he monopoly on what's wrong has been done here so let's not pretend that Labour are somehow any better/more moral than anyone else.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

it was the best of a bad bunch he had to put bums on seats :D


haven't seen anything from the liberal demoncrats yet can't wait till that news breaks

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

and the rest.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

yes it could be just the greens that come out squeaky clean unless she's been pinching her own bum ;)

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Same reason that May can't really suspend the whip from Stephen Crabb or the others. They would lose their majority. Westminster is coming across as just one big boys club. All as bad as each other it seems.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

That just about sums it up.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Exactly, hence my long standing belief that, despite their protestations to the contrary, Labour are really no better the Tories they despise whether it comes to sexual abuse in parliament, the misuse of expenses, cash for questions, cronyism and just about anything else you can mention. I'm glad we've established that after all this time because that's what sticks in my throat. ;)

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Labour launches formal investigation after Clive Lewis accused of groping woman at party's 2017 conference

A formal investigation has been launched by Labour after a woman accused Clive Lewis of groping her at the party’s annual conference in Brighton.

The 39-year-old woman has alleged that Mr Lewis, a former frontbencher and ally of Jeremy Corbyn, had given her backside a “big squeeze” when he had hugged her in a packed room.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...cused-groping/

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Spot on! The forum unites.
Hang on, that would never do!
We'd better talk about Brexit or Trump before we all agree too much! :D

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Such a nice chap too. The guy who calls people who support managed migration racists.



Back to the accusations in general anyway. Few who're innocent are likely to say they're guilty but how many of the guilty are going to admit that they've done wrong? In many cases it's likely to boil down to one person's word against another so many of these 'assaults' are going to be hard to prove or aren't they?... :shrug:

I'm sure we all have sympathy for any victims but adding the wrongly 'convicted' to the list of victims doesn't really help.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

i wonder how much tactical accusing will be going on to alter the shape of the front benches this is too good an opportunity for politicians to miss

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

They wouldn't stoop to that would they? OH that's right, yes they would. Just look at their track record of dishonesty or being 'economical with the truth' when it suits.

The genie is out of the bottle and we could very well see chaos ensue. Someone needs to get a grip of this and display some real leadership.

---------- Post added at 21:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:55 ----------

and here's another suspension:

https://order-order.com/2017/11/03/t...rlie-elphicke/

It's from a supposedly Tory mouthpiece so it ought to be treated with huge scepticism...

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

BBC seem to confirm it without detail though.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

First suspension from the Tories on this. Referred to the police as well. Must be bad.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

My comment about the source was intended to be taken with a hint or sarchasm since some people seem to think GF only deals in anti-Labour stuff. ;)

It'll be interesting to see how serious this all turns out to be but right now I get the feeling that some people are going to be hung out to dry because it's too awkward for our glorious leaders to do otherwise. :shrug:

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Sadly Andrew this is going to get worse then the sleaze scandal's IMO.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Andrea Leadsom ‘KNIFED Sir Michael Fallon to keep her job', former minister claims

ANDREA Leadsom “knifed” Sir Michael Fallon with sex pest claims following his suggestion she was a “dud” who would need to “fall away” so a Brexit deal could be done, it has been claimed.

tactical accusing in action

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/875...er-scandal-may

A former minister said Andrea Leadsom launched a “preemptive strike” against Sir Michael Fallon in a plea to keep her job.

According to the former minister the MP, who ran for the Tory leadership last year, is now “unsackable” after she triggered the resignation of the Defence Secretary.

Sir Michael believed Mrs Leadsom might try to damage any Brexit deal that involved concessions to the EU.

One Government minister said: “It was self-protection on her part and she has basically destroyed Fallon.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

But could a woman possibly do such a thing? Be just as self centred and conniving as all those men? Surely not... ;)

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

you haven't met my ex have you

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

As I said earlier shouting and pointing the finger at a specific party/ideology just doesn't work. It's not about politics,it's about abuse of power and it's a matter for the institution of Parliament to bring about change and to set up some sort of HR committee/rules to address the issue. This means that the finger pointing needs to cease and some actual cross party discussion/committee needs to be set up to come up with a solution.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Tory MP warns sexual harassment claims may be 'a witch hunt'
Sir Roger Gale said outside bodies would have to be brought in to mitigate the ongoing scandal

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8037211.html


A veteran Tory MP has said the sexual harassment scandal engulfing Westminster has become a "witch hunt."

Sir Roger Gale, who has been MP for North Thanet for 34 years, said MPs and other prominent figures were on a "hiding to nothing" as allegations could be made that would almost impossible to refute.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Mmm, is Sir Roger the next ? Sunday papers tomorrow, bound to be a few more....

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Sunday politics on telly will be interesting:)

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-41872427

Not just Westminster then. Maybe we need another title change...

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

shenanigans at holyrude:)

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Full explanation as to why Falon left.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ual-harassment

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

And the next is Theresa's Deputy ...
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ters-s7lkjpgcb

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

So much for some politicians in setting a right and proper example to their constituents when they cannot set it to themselves..

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Worth pointing out that Damien Green is denying it. I suspect if he goes, so does the "strong and stable Government" shortly afterwards so the stakes are high in this case.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

the burden of proof is on the accuser

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

It's up to Theresa May what burden of proof is needed. Although to me he's innocent until proven guilty.
According to the paper:

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

And here is another.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...er-allegations

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Thornberry doesn't seem very happy to comment on anything much to do with her party's handling of this.

https://order-order.com/2017/11/05/t...m-happy-to-go/

Typical really, criticise the other side for their actions (or lack of) but say nothing about your own.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

To be fair and unbiased there other MPs on the other side who are doing the same..But beware if the female MPs of all parties decide to band together and insist on a system that will investigate and uphold or dismiss each case on the evidence.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

A poster on the Order-Order website says that the only Conservative MPs under investigation are Brexiters. Whether this is true or not I don't know but it's another way of splitting the cake be it male-female, Labour-Conservative etc.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

But Labour are supposed to be better aren't they? The party of respect and all that...

As regards the female contingent, I dare say they'll want to be sure that all of them are squeaky clean first because what goes around eventually comes around.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

There will be more shortly. SNP now has two mentioned today

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

A whole can of juicy worms has been opened and the media is feasting on the contents.

How long before we start getting a few senior media personnel implicated I wonder. Just think of all those Christmas parties during which important people, male and female, have got drunk and let their hands, lips and other things stray...

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Yep. This one is going to run and run. Especially historical stuff that today is frowned upon that at the time was just "a bit of fun"

Of course one has to ask the question of members: Is there nothing in your past that could be considered as harassment by today's standards?

Re: Labour MP's homophobic & sexist remarks
 

That's right, and it is refreshing to read someone recounting such an experience and not claiming that it has totally ruined their life, self confidence, etc.

Serious sexual assaults such as rape are one thing but complaints that 'he once brushed my knee' (but it might have just been the tablecloth) are pathetic.

Never mind the university students who cannot bear to hear anything remotely unsettling to their sensibilities, we are rapidly becoming a snowflake nation.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

More MPs caught up in sexual harassment scandal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...er-allegations

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Have they got anything on Dave?

I'd guess it would be from a male if there is.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

There was the pigs head... Maybe it was a boar. :D

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

The whole thing is a bore, if you ask me!

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Far too early to say what's happened here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41904161

Whatever the facts turn out to be you have to feel sorry for his family and loved ones.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Source

They just cannot resist getting their noses into it. :D

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

wow Westminster is full of alligators at the moment

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Well it seems Welsh Labour MP Carl Sargeant committed suicide.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41904161

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

wow that's drastic

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Perhaps the witch hunters are happy now.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Well I've noticed the tone in the media has changed quite a lot today. Naming names and 'Baying for blood' is all very well until some is spilled and regardless of what this guy did/didn't do his family certainly don't deserve this. I wouldn't be surprised if more don't follow, some who've done very little wrong. :shrug:

I heard a guy on radio earlier. He'd called in to relate what'd happened to him. He'd been accused of a serious matter and the police had immediately taken away all his phones, computers for forensic examination etc. The 'investigation' lasted '16 months of hell' before it was decided that there was no basis to the allegations and the whole thing was dropped. He suffered terribly, lost his job, became depressed and suicidal and is still living with the aftermath of the whole episode. His accuser was never named and no action was taken against her...

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Source

Another one bites the dust. This looks like it will run and run.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Indeed there is quite a lot more sexual-harassment allegations to come out from what the PM and opposition leader were told late last week.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

I think the police need to work on the speed of forensic examinations. There have been many stories of people being left in limbo for over a year whilst these take place.

I am not sure the case you are talking about as I didn't hear it but as for no action being taken against her it's important to remember that an unproven accusation is not therefore malicious or fake. We don't want a justice system where the accusation of a crime is either proven or the accuser is in trouble.

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 ----------

Labour could well have handled the accusations better for all concerned here. It's still right though that accusers feel safe to come forward and their complaints are investigated and, so long as they didn't make it up, the accusers are not responsible for it.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

No we don't but what we have is a situation in which you, I our one of our loved ones can have their entire lives turned upside down (including their innocent families and loved ones) and even destroyed when there's no evidence at all. That's where we're at right now and have been for far too long with people even being named publicly. If we're going to take every allegation seriously then I'm afraid the authorities need to get their act together or take responsibility for the incredible damage done to those who were innocent. All too many of them. Time will tell whether Mr Sargeant did anything much wrong and if it turns out he didn't then maybe the powers that be will start to take this seriously. They're certainly not right now, in their clamour to support 'victims' they're entirely overlooking the accused.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Yes and we probably need to revise how we handle these cases. I don't know a lot of how these things are handled but it seems to me anonymity should be given to the accused until they're convicted or if a judge deems it in the public interest.

I think historically the rate of false accusations is very low and clearly a lot of people have been getting away with sexual assault for far too long though so we also need to be careful we don't fall back into that kind of environment.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Yes and we probably need to revise how we handle these cases. I don't know a lot of how these things are handled but it seems to me anonymity should be given to the accused until they're convicted or if a judge deems it in the public interest.

I think historically the rate of false accusations is very low and clearly a lot of people have been getting away with sexual assault for far too long though so we also need to be careful we don't fall back into that kind of environment.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

What possible public interest could be served by revealing the name of the accused when they (I quote Osem here) "can have their entire lives turned upside down and even destroyed when there's no evidence at all."?

What possible public interest other than gossip could exist?

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

In the case of historical allegations a case can be built up by more people coming forward to the police and their testimony being similar. If there are details to the assaults that show a pattern and those details were not public then the prosecution can use that in court. If Saville had been alive when it all came out then that's how they would have gotten him because in the end all these women had similar stories.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

Yes, maybe someone could explain that for us and what attention is ever paid to the impact on innocent families, children etc.

It's perfectly obvious that achieving political advantage is a key factor in much of what's going on here with regard to Westminster. In the current media feeding frenzy we're witnessing a great many people have been so keen to smear their opponents at every opportunity that they've overlooked possible skeletons in their own cupboards. It's very unedifying and says a lot about the sort of people some of our political masters are and what depths they'll plumb to get their way.

---------- Post added at 15:00 ---------- Previous post was at 14:54 ----------

All the more reason for the media not to publicise the very 'facts' which could be used by others to make false claims. Let's be clear, that right now innocent people are being subjected to a process of investigation which leaves them being treated as guilty until proven innocent for very long periods of time with permanent damage to their lives, careers and finances. I don't see how that can be justified at all.

Re: Westminster Sexual Allegations
 

I can see both sides of the argument, and I know that such investigations can be assisted by the publicity. However, they can also be hampered by publicity seeking idiots and those seeking financial compensation.

I think the rules need looking at again, and the name of the accused should be revealed only if a judge considered there to be compelling evidence to justify doing so.

Anyone accused of such a crime is very vulnerable the way things stand, because the old adage that you are found guilty only if the charge can be proved 'beyond reasonable doubt' seems to be watered down for these sorts of allegations.

However, the victims of these crimes are vulnerable too, because proving that someone committed a serious sexual assault is difficult, as there are normally only two witnesses.

I would have thought that the police should investigate such crimes carefully, using modern techniques, but they should not make assumptions either way until they have the evidence.

What happened in the Ted Heath case is an example of the deplorable standards of investigation that are taking place these days. It is quite disturbing.

Maybe a Royal Commission should be set up to review how these cases are dealt with. The Justice system doesn't seem to be fit for purpose at the moment, with people who are innocent being put through the ringer and often prosecuted, while too many victims don't get treated properly or have their complaints properly investigated. Omnishambles is the word that comes to mind.