Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Nope. EU has very little ability to do anything on this matter.

It's almost as if member states are sovereign.

I guess you're too busy with the banter to answer my questions on the other thread. I presume you have some really good reasons for wanting to risk the UK's economy over and above personal prejudice and it'd be good to read them. We're all on here to listen to alternative points of view, right?

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

just imagine how the indi vote would have gone with the new neo Wehrmacht sticking the jack boot in .

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

The war was over 72 years ago - you need to let it go.

I worked with members of the German Army and Air Force, who were ashamed of their past, but were proud to be part of NATO - they are now called the Bundeswehr.

btw, you were tautological- new and neo mean the same thing.. ;)

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Sadly some are not that open to others views even if they don't hold the same view but l always say a open mind always learns more then a closed mind.:)

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

2837 posts in the old brexit thread +312 posts in the new =

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Spain National Day violence ERUPTS: Angry protesters clash in Catalonia independence fight

VIOLENCE broke out in Spain today as independence campaigners clashed with pro-unity protesters during the country’s National Day.

you can really feel the love in Spain these days

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...rcelona-Madrid

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41710873

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-e...e-in-barcelona

Looks like things are going to get interesting. I wonder if the EU will interfere in a member state's affairs or just let them get on with it.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

they have probably given spain their orders to put an end to independence no one leaves the club without a fight

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

I'm surprised nobody's suggested another referendum so they can get the right result. :D

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

give it time , but it is spain they beat the right result into people while the eu watches their rights being trampled under the jackboot

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

I'm guessing that it must be awkward for some to realise that the EU is less interfering in countries' internal affairs than they've believed.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Quite, but one if the existing principles of being a member of a EU State, is Democracy.

stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities

Spain is acting opposite to this and the ignorance of the EU, says it all.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

If the EU was getting involved in the Scottish/UK question I am not sure how keen the people now demanding they intervene would be.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

That does not make sense, there was nothing amiss, with the Scottish vote, a referendum was called, people said no. Democracy spoke. Case closed.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Many in Scotland want another vote though, should the EU tell us to have one? Should they have told us to have the last one? What about if they condemn us for re-implementing direct rule in Northern Ireland?

I think they should have condemned some of the way Spain is handling it but I think you're underestimating the dangers of the EU giving tacit support to secessionist movements within their member states.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

How many Referendums do people need to have to get the result they want?

The one held in 2014 was enough and it was suppose to be a once in a lifetime event, according to the SNP.

Along came brexit, as a convenient scapegoat, to want hold another, however, the fact the SNP lost a considerable amount of Parliamentary seats, says many more Scots don’t want another vote.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Yep the Scotland independence referendum that the SNP had long campaigned for ended up backfiring on them.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

but it would have been ok with our euromob friends to send in riot police to give them a good kicking for having the nerve to want independence .

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

No they'd never do that. Such a benign, forward thinking and open minded bunch of people who've proved they're not at all governed by dogma and how they've learned from mistakes, not just carried on with the one size fits all nonsense regardless over the last few decades.

Just look at how Juncker's vision proves to us all that at a time of increasing right wing extremism in Europe, the EU has recognised that there's a major problem with its policies/leadership and is keen to apply the brakes, take stock of what's going wrong, reform, create a new and less overbearing relationship with member states...

:rolleyes:

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

If the referendum was unconstitutional then it's not undemocratic to ignore it. The police were heavy handed but that won't be the first time a police force in the EU has misbehaved, including the UK.
If any rights have been violated then I guess people can take legal proceedings up with the Spanish state. But ultimately it's a political situation that needs sorting out in Spain. I'm sure friendly countries will be willing to assist in the way that they did in Northern Ireland, although we are not blessed with the same calibre of politicians now as we did for the Northern Ireland peace talks.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Conveniently ruled unconstitutional.

Still against the basic EU principle... "stable institutions guaranteeing democracy"

Key word underlined.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

What do you really suggest Spain does? Obviously, talk and not send in the police are what it should have done on Day 1. But do you think it should follow an unconstitutional referendum? That sets a bit of a dangerous precedent. Do you believe it is undemocratic to obey an unconstitutional referendum?

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

I do not agree with Spain's approach.

The Catalonia Referendum on Independence, wasn't classified as illegal right up until the eve of the vote. Why allow such a process to build up so much momentum, people campaigning etc, mass rallies of people in the street?

Spain panicked and thought, "crap, we cannot lose one of our key financial support areas", I wouldn't put it past the EU to lean on Spain to go in heavy handed, the EU's lack of empathy towards old people being dragged and pushed to the ground by Spain's Militia, which by the way breached a key clause of membership of the EU of basic human rights violations, it was totally disgusting and you still love and want to be associated with these EU pissants. :rolleyes:

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

The referendum was halted just days after the Catalan Parliament passed the bill: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-disobedience/

It was never seen as entirely legal right up to the eve of the vote. The position of Madrid has always been that it is illegal.

There is also an explanation as to why it's illegal here: https://www.economist.com/blogs/econ...st-explains-17

But legal or not it's questionable if a region of a country can just declare independence without the approval of the parent nation. Is that really a precedent we want to set?

If a region of the UK, Scotland or Wales for example, suddenly decided to hold a referendum without permission from Westminster which they subsequently won would you approve of the EU demanding we recognise it?

I think they should offer a legal path to a referendum and they certainly should not have reacted so violently. In doing so they've only increased the support for independence both in Catalonia and around the world. This is a complicated issue though and within Catalonia the question was not settled and you can't have suddenly declarations of independence.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Just because I feel that remaining in the EU is the least worse option for the UK in terms of funding public services, the economy and the country's global influence doesn't mean I love the Spanish police force. They've handled the situation very badly and I think politicians in Spain all need to sit round a table and sort it out.
As I asked before, "Do you believe it is undemocratic to obey an unconstitutional referendum?"

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

And as I said, conveniently unconstitutional.

And in reply to the underlined bit, I am not talking about Spain's police, I am talking about the EU.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

If you read the Economist article, you'll realise that your statement " The Catalonia Referendum on Independence, wasn't classified as illegal right up until the eve of the vote" is wrong.
And as others wiser then me have explained, you can't have any part of a country calling a referendum. That would be a recipe for chaos. They need to abide by the constitution of the country and that constitution will vary between sovereign states. Even if Canvey Island fancies a bit of independence. ;) https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/r...-a3660471.html
I've already explained my feelings on the EU.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

I see Madrid's now contending that many of the images shown during and since the pre-referendum violence are fake:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-e...-pictures-fake

I'd like him to show us which ones they are and what proportion of the total they represent.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

It is worth remembering how recently Spain actually became a democracy. This is not a nation with a long history of being an open democracy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Span...n_to_democracy

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

note to self 40 years is not enough time to realise you live in a democracy

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Catalan leaders call election on 20th December.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Catalonia has declared independence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116

Let's hope that, whatever else happens, there's no return to the violence of a couple of weeks ago.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

This is going to go well.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

A civil war within the EU would be an interesting development

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

If they have declared independence, they are no longer part of the EU, nor of the euro. Let's watch them wriggle out of that one.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

They must know this. I don't know what their end game was here, seems like a stunt that has spiraled out of control.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Good luck to them :tu:

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

No surprise: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41783238

We won’t acknowledge their independence.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

we should have a vote on it i don't like being told what i do and don't acknowledge

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

All to do with Brexit and keeping the Spanish 'sweet'...

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

As I’ve said previously I don’t think we want to start setting a precedent of acknowledging secessionist movements unilaterally declaring independence either ;)

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

mmm, it's interesting that some those that are sympathetic to Catalan independence, were dead set against Scotland being independent !

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

We are a representative democracy - that’s how it works...

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Did anyone seriously think we would? It'll be interesting to see if anyone does. N. Korea maybe...

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

i feel i'm being misrepresented

---------- Post added at 19:42 ---------- Previous post was at 19:24 ----------

and now the excrement hits the fan
Catalonia independence: Spanish PM dissolves Catalan parliament

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41783289

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Hmm, not convinced. ;) France, Germany and Italy have all declined to recognise Catalonia.

---------- Post added at 19:49 ---------- Previous post was at 19:49 ----------

I've noticed that too.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

EU warns 'more cracks' in bloc

The EU's most senior official warned that "more cracks" were emerging in the bloc on Friday after the Catalan parliament declared independence from Spain, plunging the country into political and economic turmoil.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...emove-catalan/

cracks in the EU bloc how unfortunate

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

I'm sure they'll be papered over as usual. Wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that the EU isn't a safe bet.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Sturgeon calls for Catalonia independence campaign to be ‘respected’[due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others.]

Ms Sturgeon outlined her support for the Scottish government’s response and called for dialogue rather than criticism.

The leader of the Scottish National Party (SNP), Ms Sturgeon tweeted the Scottish Government's response to the result after the Catalan parliament voted for independence today.

She posted: “We respect position, the people of Catalonia must have ability to determine own future”.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...Spain-Scotland

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Trust Nicola to stick her head above the Trenches. I can understand why Theresa May was quick to declare they don’t recognise Catalonia Independence.

She needs to recognise, Scotland had their ‘once in a lifetime referendum’, and that was to stay, the talk of further independence, is the reason she lost 20 Seats.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

The SNP are careful to say they respect it rather than recognise it.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Never thought I'd say this, but the Spanish Govenment could learn some tact from Nicola Sturgeon!

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Both of them could learn from us. The SNP sought a legal referendum and we gave it to them. No stunts, no illegal referendums and no violence.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Agreed.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

well we just might be beyond that now this could be going by a different route

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Good to see our democratic countries supporting democracy in action... double standards... freedom... we want our independence.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

‘You’re facing the END of Europe' Catalan leader Puigdemont in chilling warning to EU

CATALAN leader Carles Puigdemont today warned EU leaders they are facing the “end of the idea of Europe” if they fail to take action over Spain’s “violent and oppressive” response to its independence referendum.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...light-Brussels

ah well every cloud ......

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

I see the Spanish authorities want to make an example of those who opposed their rule:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41854248

Just the sort of thing Putin would do.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

wanting to make an example of those who wish to leave now where have i heard that before

viva Franco

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Yes it has a familiar ring to it. Has anyone in Brussels commented yet or is it still not their affair?

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

i was just thinking what if Spain asks brussels to arrest the catalexiteers that would be the EU sticking their oar in , and the Spanish police would surely be out of their legal jurisdiction if they tried to make the arrests .

viva Franco

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Spain can issue/request a European arrest warrant.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

yes but that will have consequences within the EU and could spark a leave rebellion

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Handy things when you need them eh?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41854248

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

It gets better, watching Sky news earlier it was commented that as Belgium does not have a law against rebellion then Spain would have difficulty getting a European arrest warrant.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

if the EU gets involved [any country that helps Spain in the block] could become a target if things turn nasty as they tend to in Spain

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Dear Spain allow Catalonia to have a proper referendum... and if they vote independence than accept it... Otherwise two or more of your regions are looking at your draconian response to Catalonia with horror.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

The Basque region are certainly looking on IMHO.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Others too in Europe I'm sure which is why the EU wouldn't condemn the state violence outright. They were happy to have a severe message sent out to others who might dare to rock the EU boat.

Re: Catalonia Independence