Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

I think the airline still would be accountable. If the person has boarded they're not allowed to bounce them IIRC. Now they can still tell them to leave and they have to obey but they've broken the regulations that govern these things and would have to answer for that.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

They're allowed to bounce anyone for any reason for sufficient compensation and a re-booked flight. Only when they've exhausted their options can they carry this out. If he was removed safely, they can make claim they offered him both. It's then up to him to claim the offer was not good enough. That's the punt at the airline I mentioned. Even then, that scenario is still far better than what's actually happened.

Regulations exist but Airlines get far more leeway than we think.

Again though, I'm just going for legal repercussions of things. Lets say it did unfold that way and none of this blew up, I still however don't agree that the compensation was sufficient.

I spoke of an incident I was involved in but without the detail so as short as possible.

I was part of a 17 man team that toured the UK for the 2012 Olympics, we provided VIP security under a private company I don't wish to disclose other than it's not G4s, we were completely separate from them clowns. Our job was simple, Athlete guarding, close protection if you will. So one of our dates was my hometown and St James' Park the venue, two games, Mexico vs ??? (Can't quite remember) and Spain vs Honduras. So four of the 17, me being in that four had the Spanish Olympic football team sat in the VIP seats with several FIFA officials and Spanish Royalty housed in with them, somehow due to a clear error, A family of Honduras fans, two adults and two children had purchased tickets in the VIP section despite LOCOG not permitting them for sale for obvious reasons, they took their seats, without LOCOG accreditation (A badge allowing you to be in special areas) and then instantly recognized Juan Mata and proceeded to quickly approach him as you'd expect. I bolted up the stairs but allowed the now autograph signing to take place (We're not trying to escalate this to 100mph instantly) luckily the father spoke English and once I told him what the dilemma was here he started refusing to move. If I have to physically remove him, I have no choice to but eject a paying family from the Stadium. I compromised. I assured him no one would sit in the seats they'd paid for and then moved him and the rest of his family into corporate hospitality free of charge with access to the buffet with 4 temporary LOCOG badges. Security up there was provided by G4S, that's why everyone had badges. I passed an event programme to the players whom signed it, three recognizable players being Mata, De Gea and Iker Munian and then handed it to the family before the games finished.

That's an example of option 2 with a few differing factors. I found a resolution to the issue without the need to physically remove someone.

It matters because little over a year before that during a gig, I dragged a man out of a crowd and gave him the boot. He'd been throwing liquids at the stage. I'd approached him once and simply asked him to refrain, he did it again. I then applied what I could only describe as a half/full nelson hold and proceeded to drag him backwards through a crowd and out. The problem being, he showed absolutely no aggression, he was not physical, just drunk and non compliant. I had absolutely no justifiable grounds to do what I did. I could've waited for a colleague and merely escorted him out via proper methods. I could've persuaded him to leave, I could've done countless things differently and frankly better but I really didn't, I failed miserably and put this gentleman at risk because I didn't follow my training and thought I knew far better what to do.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Yes but I think that has to be done before they board the plane, after all the problem should become apparent at the gate anyway when not everyone can get on. He had boarded and had gotten a seat.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

It should be but Airlines can bounce people in seats, again this isn't uncommon. Maybe this is the incident that will lead to a push to see rules enforced like they should be. I think it's one of those things that maybe you're completely right and this is the supposed rule, but it's become so common to bend it that it's basically snapped and no body cares anymore because it's all too common of an occurrence.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Just saw on news, all passengers on this particular flight are to get a full refund.

Dr. David Dao, is taking legal action against United Airlines for forceful removal. His lawyers have made an emergency request to preserve videos and cockpit voice recordings.

http://news.sky.com/story/united-pas...moval-10835055

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

maybe we should run a betting pool to guess how much he gets
i'll take $ 100,000,000;)

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Betting is illegal last l knew on this forum.;)

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

only if money is involved i was suggesting a friendly wager

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Well, I dunno I hope that future passengers don't rue the day when a soft hearted social media effectively castrated airline security staff. :D

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Yeah the lawsuit is as expected, worded in a way to drag both entities through court at the same time. They'll claim United Airlines didn't do enough before calling for physical removal and of course they'll claim they were assaulted and I think they have a fair case on both accounts.

I expect United to either try and settle and/or throw the law enforcement under the bus. I'm not sure if the city will try and settle though, then again I can't see it ever going on their favour though. It's unjust assault with complete video evidence, there's not really much to defend themselves with.

---------- Post added at 13:24 ---------- Previous post was at 13:22 ----------

They're not private security and have no affiliation to any airlines, they're City Police assigned to Airport law enforcement that operate under the Chicago police department.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

the legal term for this is kerching

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Yeah I know everyone see's some big compensation here but this should also be used to reel airlines in with these practices, it isn't just about compensating someone but rather stopping this crap happening again.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

absolutely

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Just watched Press conference of Dr Dao's Attorney and Daughter.

Seems the lawyers are gunning for both United Airlines and Chicago city police. More than one entity can be held responsible. They are not ready to issue lawsuits yet they are in due diligence mode and working to get to issuing the lawsuits soon.

Lawyers don't believe this is a overbooking issue: Given last minute seats were needed to accommodate 4 UA Staff.

Dr Dao injuries were extensive:
Severely broken nose that requires corrective surgery.
Concussion.
He lost two front teeth.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Given the litigious nature of the USA he's on for $millions.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Hadn't realised it was so bad; not good, not good at all :(.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

It's just not been United Airlines week at all.

Snake on a plane? No!

Worse....

....Scorpion! And it's stung a man and on a United Airlines flight....

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/13/scorp...o-calgary.html

I suppose we are now going to be sensitive and subject to out of the ordinary things happening on flights.... specifically if it is a United Airlines flight... :erm:

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

One week you're flying high, the next week it all goes down the Swanee. We all get our turn sooner or later.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Truly shocking injuries!

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Really bad on the part of United, this wasn't an overbooking issue. The seats were for replacement air crew needed for a different flight. United had loads of options and choose the worst possible. The passengers were already bordered, United should of chartered a separate flight for the air crew or had them driven there.

If they hadn't been bored then they could have bumped the passengers.

J

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Effectively self-inflicted. Others left the plane perfectly peacefully and without injury. That option was available to him. He CHOSE not to take that option.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

If that's the case then any compensation claim is doomed to fail.

Let's see. :)

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Effectively airline inflicted.
United airlines CHOSE to evect him after he had boarded with a valid ticket.
That event came first.
He had every right to make as much fuss about it as possible.
No one had the right to inflict those injuries on him.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

3 others left without incident in this case, including his wife. The ONLY people who get injured or even killed, in these sorts cases are where the people themselves are being aggressively obstructive or violent.

People are removed from flights, all the time.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

His wife left after he was dragged down the aisle, it's a misconception to say she left voluntarily, looks like she stuck by her husband.

In any case, you cannot justify in any form, any injury sustained if someone is removed with force.

Dragging someone by the arms, where one could suffer a dislocation, is illegal.

United Airlines was in the wrong.

The Chicago State Police / Security are in the wrong.

This should not have happened. Pure and simple.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Yes, it shouldn't have happened. He should have left of his own accord as MANY others do. He wasn't unexpectedly hauled from his seat, he had plenty of notice and opportunity to leave without injury.

If people are required to move from somewhere, for whatever reason, should they simply be allowed to stay? Recipe for chaos.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Wrong, he had every right to resist as he had done nothing wrong. He should NOT have been injured in any way, you do not injure people when you try to move them. Stop justifying something that was illegal.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

So in your book the choices available to him were:
a) Stay and hope the airline doesn't move him.
b) Leave the plane of his own accord.
c) Stay and understand that he will be violently injured when he stood his ground.

I'm sure no one would expect choice c)!

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Notwithstanding given the options, choice C being enacted on a 69 year old man, it's wrong to do it on any age, but I would say very bad to carry out an assault in this manner on someone of that age.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Very bad is putting it lightly. What they did was illegal. It was completely unjust. They turned a legal physical removal into plain assault.

It's simple understanding really. Given the situation, facts and video evidence, there is absolutely nothing to suggest it warranted that response. It doesnt matter what laws were broken by the passenger. Reasonable justifiable force. Do you shoot an unarmed shoplifter that's not going anywhere? No because it's not justifiable. Do you use ridiculous force to remove a passenger from a flight because he won't move? No. You use proper techniques to avoid both danger and injury. They failed at this miserably and the plain clothes officer showed pure aggression and little patience. Like earlier that has absolutely no use in security or law enforcement and should be assertiveness.

That case along in court is just open and shut. It's undefendable, unless you're OJ Simpson.

There's no debate here really, whatever people believe is morally wrong and right is irrelevant. Just what's legal and what's illegal. So bringing it on himself as it was put just doesn't matter at all. It doesnt matter what options were available. Assault was committed that wasn't justifiable to the crime committed.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Not after they have boarded.

Your quote references Southwest and categorically states DENIED BOARDING.

That is where the monumental cockup took place here.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

He's right, they are removed after boarding all the time, they're not really meant to be but as I explained a few pages back, the rules or guidelines are extremely relaxed in favour of the actual airline. This may once again change back to before boarding after an incident like this. It's exactly like I put it, if removal after boarding guidelines aren't enforced they just keep getting bent until you end up with an incident like this.

Essentially, you're not meant to do it, but they do it anyway and if no one raises that much of a complaint, nothing changes. I have a feeling this time it may not favour the airline.

His quote however is indeed pre-boarding and actually has nothing to add here.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

More cost for Continental!
United Airlines offer refunds to all Flight 3411 passengers after Dr David Dao was dragged off plane

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Drunk and rowdy, but still left the plane peacefully, because they made the CHOICE to do it that way. If they had refused to leave, what then?

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Presumably they would be removed in a professional manner that would not cause them harm. Such a thing is entirely possible. The choice should never be to leave the plane of your own accord or we'll remove you and two of your front teeth instead! There is a happy median.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

That still relies on them leaving peacefully and of their own accord. Dao had that option, but was too stubborn and aggressive to take it. If the drunk and rowdy group had been stubborn and aggressive, in all likelihood they would have been injured in the process of their removal. To remove an uncooperative person from a confined space such as an airline seat, will end up with an injury.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Which the person(s) causing the injury would still be liable to assault charges and or being sued.

The force used has to proportionate to the reason for removal. I'd say a passenger losing two front teeth, suffering concussion and having his nose broken was not proportionate to the circumstances and that was, Dr Dao being told his seat was needed for a crew member, a seat he paid for.

Also, you say he was Aggressive? I saw no aggression. He was expressing his right to resist. I would do the same. Anyway, CEO has admitted wrong doing now so, case is pretty in favour of Dr Dao and so it should be.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

From an article linked on the previous page ;

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Yes I saw him repeatedly smashing his own face into the arm rest.

Omg he was given the opportunity to leave without injury, did they actually say that, leave now or well injure you, presumably when he didn't leave that made it okay to kick the crap out of him then, those injuries are indefensible, try imagining if it was your dad.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Good analysis of the CEO's interview, particularly telling is the delay in which he answered the question "Do you think that he's at fault in any way?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39583378

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Interesting article here - "calculated misery".
We're paying more for a lesser service, and airlines are intent on making us pay more.
Would you happily pay extra when going out to dine to ensure that all your party are at the same table?

So airlines make the basic product unappealing so that you feel obliged to pay the extras. I've been travelling on Air Canada for some years, 15 years ago, we were allowed pre-assigned seats and two pieces of luggage each weighing 32kg. Then the weight dropped to 24kg, and now it's just one piece, with the second piece costing £60.
Now Air Canada started to charge for pre-assigned seats CA$30 or from £18 (that's per seat, so if you have a connection, then it's per leg - and soon adds up).
I guess the next will be to charge a fee for paying on credit cards (British Airways already do), maybe charging for alcoholic drinks on board (United and American Airlines have for some years), cut back on food (British Airways cut out the second snack on 6-8 hour flights in the lower class fares).

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

The answer is quite simple.

As long as travellers are willing to pay then airlines will happily screw you for every penny they can get out of you.

Just the same as any other business.

Once the people refuse to pay by not travelling then the price will come down.

Just the same as any other business.

As long as there are people willing to pay the price then nothing will change - and why should it?

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Interesting short article

United bumps more passengers than any other large American airline

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

are you sure that's not thumps more passengers

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

The main thing that should be noticed is "Involuntary denials of boarding (IDB)".

This was not the case recently, the passenger had boarded and was seated. United have no excuse for what happened.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Seems United Airlines are just good at being Assholes....

http://www.khou.com/news/local/bride...ston/431644313

I think the use of US Air Marshall's is being abused here, they did not break the law and they cooperated, they shouldn't have done, I would have demanded they wake the man that was asleep in the allocated seats.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Or, they were trying to have upgraded seats without paying for them in advance. They should have been duffed up before being dragged off for being disorderly. It probably didn't help that they decided to urgently consummate their marriage in economy plus :p:

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

They offered, me personally would have woke the man in their seats, after all he did not pay for those seats so why didn't he get challenged ?

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

I think we should wait and see with that story. Something seems off about it. In the previous case it was quite clear what happened but here it seems unlikely they escalated it to the use of US Marshalls for the crime of sitting in another seat and then politely relocating....

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

But when pressed for comment UA said they offered to rebook the couples flight, you don't do that if they have been unruly and UA was within their right to throw them off.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

I think as Damien says there's more to this than meets the eye.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Row 21 on that plane is an exit row with substantially more legroom and clearly not a standard economy row.

Nice try by the couple.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

I believe that in accordance with general company guidelines and policy, why weren't these people duffed up.

I notice they said the flight had loads of empty seats, perhaps united don't need to worry about overbooking anymore for some reason

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Jane Moore's column in my redtop today has the new suggested UA slogan "United puts the hospital into hospitality" :D

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Unbelievable, the world's biggest rabbit has died mysteriously in their care now! If I'd been Simon 's owner I'd have defiantly had the necropsy done, if only to check for bruises

https://www.theguardian.com/business...dies-uk-flight

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

When the bunny was found unwell, an emergency call went out "Is there a Doctor on board?" unfortunately.......

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

That is one of my favorites. :tu:

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

United Airlines has reached a settlement with a Kentucky doctor who was filmed being dragged forcibly from a flight in Chicago.

Dr David Dao was treated in hospital after aviation police physically removed him from the plane to make space for four crew members on the flight between Chicago and Louisville, Kentucky.

http://news.sky.com/story/united-set...moval-10853525

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

I would have took them all the way. They have now essentially settled out of court and they included a non-disclosure agreement with the family upon acceptance of the settlement. I'd say about $10 Million minimum settlement offer.

Re: United Airlines: Passenger violently removed due to overbooking
 

Unfortunately they were all to scared to admit it for fear of being duffed up like the last one so poor simon died, so sad :(