Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Probably not ,we should be investing more money and the public should be made aware that if we want a viable NHS for the future we will have to pay for it and if that means raising taxes then so be it

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Avoided? Based on the banners, there's meant to be more to it than that. There are to be restrictions on how much Saturday work they are allowed to do, a 30% addition for working a 2nd Saturday in a month, along with the 13.5% overall pay increase to covered reduced weekend rates. Why are Saturdays a problem for the BMA?

So all these studies over the years, by so many organisations, around the world are all skewed? Many have focussed on a single medical condition, often where there is NO question about whether somebody should be admitted or not.
The Lancet, May 2015

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

So you want higher taxes now? A few weeks ago you were arguing that higher earners desperately needed tax cuts. Who are these taxes going to fall on? Which party is most likely to implement your radical plan? The Tories ? ;)

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Yes l quite agree with a lot of those sentiments.

---------- Post added at 08:51 ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 ----------

l am no lover of the Tories but the public can't have it both ways as we either want a properly funded NHS for the future or our NHS could go the way of America wonderful health system and l don't think many of us want that do we?.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I agree with increasing taxes too; however the Govt. is dogmatically opposed to raising taxes. The public aren't innocent here. Despite what they say to pollsters, they don't vote for parties that promise tax rises. Demands are increasing on the NHS quicker than its budget growing, yet they are expected to expand further. Its an impossible task and I suspect the Govt. knows it i.e. its being set up to fail.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

If we want the NHS to be open 24/7 then we will have to employ not just junior doctors but everyone else with specialist skills.Doctors need lab technicians,radiographers,nurses and all the other myriad professions that keep the NHS working Monday to Friday..plus the missing extra doctors and nurses/midwives the NHS currently has shortages of.

However that costs and trying to provide on a shoestring won't cut it..

Also the best way to keep people out of A&E on any day is to make sure we address the acute shortage of GPs..My friend has just made an appointment to see her GP about her sinus headaches but can't have an appointment until the 2nd of June.

I'm pretty sure Hunt isn't really interested a 24/7 NHS but it merely trying to find ways and means of introducing us to the benefits of a privatised system based on the US nightmare of a healthcare system...

And I'm more than willing to pay higher taxes to fund the NHS..

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Actually Labour are the party most likely to increase taxes .

Realistically though (and not in the socialist dreamland you seem to occupy)we will need to invest billions more in the NHS to maintain the service given the increased population and the increased age of the population.At some point we will have to raise more money to pay for it ,we could privatise it and have a service for the well off only or raise taxes and keep the service for everyone .

---------- Post added at 09:18 ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 ----------


What benefit for any government could there possibly be in letting the NHS fail ?

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

But you can't do the rest of it without doing ALL of it, otherwise nothing could ever get done. The junior doctors are first, that's all. Others will follow.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

All these studies aren't the one hunt has been citing as the rationales for his proposals, the one he keeps using is wrong.

---------- Post added at 20:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:02 ----------

Nothing is wrong with it if it can be staffed but if we haven't got the staff for 5 days 7 is going to prove tricky especially if you actually believe the hours are going to be cut

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

What nonsense. The policy of a 7 day NHS came along LONG BEFORE that report. It was cited simply because it was recent.

Still higher death rates based on that report.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

And it's simply wrong but what does that matter when it can be used to bolster an argument and I think you'll find it wasn't how recent it was that appealed but who wrote it.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

This new report is meant to have removed the lower levels of sickness during the week. The original DID account for that as I QUOTED.
A difference of 15% even when variations taken account of, doesn't matter? We are talking about MORE deaths.

The report came out AFTER negotiations had started.

The Royal College of Surgeons says there is a "weekend effect", as would probably the BMA before these negotiations.
And guess what I've found from BMA website Oct 2013.
So how come the BMA suddenly disagree with all that?:confused:

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

They don't disagree with all that, they disagree with how it's being implemented and it's not them that's disagreeing it's their members, the actual people being expected to do the job and the latest press release goes as far as saying this isn't simply about Saturday pay as we've been led to believe, who'd have thought it, politicians not being truthful.

http://web2.bma.org.uk/pressrel.nsf/...3?OpenDocument

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

"does not discriminate against women or any other group"What is that supposed to mean?
The statement is incredibly vague and non-specific. How does anything mentioned there justify a strike?

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I'd say staff retention is important, it is vague though, they should have just come out and said a third of A&E staff have left in the last five years. When it comes to the machinations of politics they have a lot to learn, although it's probably why the public believe and support them and wouldn't spit on a politician if they were on fire.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Still vague and non-specific, with no specific proposals to remedy it. Perhaps the new contract should reduce hours? Oh what a surprise, it does exactly that.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Perhaps the new contract should ensure as much as possible that they earn less to, that'd encourage even more of them to stay

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

:confused: a 13.5% increase isn't enough? I thought it wasn't about money. Where they are leaving A&E they are staying in medicine, therefore will be paid the same basic as if they has stayed. Perhaps the new contract should pay a Premia for certain grades and above in emergency medicine. Guess what, £1,500 for grades ST4 and above.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Most aren't getting an increase they're getting a decrease and they're not staying in medicine not ours at any rate they're emigrating

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Any that are getting a decrease, are because they are the ones overdoing the overtime. Silly question, but what have the BMA suggested be done about it?

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I agree with your sentiments but I disagree that we are running the nhs on a shoestring. I think that we are chucking a vast amount of cash at it already

---------- Post added at 22:37 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------

And that's before you consider that many doctors and nurses are deeply, deeply ***** when it come so diagnosis and care.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

No they aren't, what was it the shadow health secretary said no one with a gcse in maths can believe no junior doctor working within the legal limits will not lose money because the sums don't add up iirc

---------- Post added at 01:06 ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 ----------

Iirc we spend less of our GDP on health than any other developed nation or G7 nation, one of the two

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

It has never been claimed that nobody will lose out. That was said on 28th October and there have been improvements in pay since then.

SO WHAT. That has nothing to do with this. Even Germany has problems recruiting doctors.

So the ones that might see a pay cut are the ones working unsafe hours, which is something the junior doctors are bleating about. Anyway as they are NOT working within the limits, the statement doesn't apply to them in the first place.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

There would've had to have been considering I remember hearing a lot of them would have had pay cuts of up to 40% back then, that was when hunt was still saying they were getting a rise and yet this is the man whose word you still want to take as gospel

I was actually replying to ramie but seeing as you're saying so what I actually think we should be keeping our doctors, we give them subsidised education on the understanding that they work for the nhs for a while and if they're not prepared to do that they should be asked to pay back some of the cash, not that hunt has bothered to deal with that issue instead he seems to want to make the exodus worse, what was it the shadow health secretary called him the greatest recruiting sargent Australian medicine ever had


Or the ones that work only unsocial hours because of the job requirements

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

But no one ever mentions that most of the other G7 countries fund their Health Services with a mixture of State Funding and personal Health Insurance.

France - http://about-france.com/health-care.htm Germany - http://www.germanyhis.com/

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Is that what's called an inconvenient truth?

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Well the junior doctors are going on about unsafe hours and the dangers of being tired, when in TRUTH their hours are being reduced and working patterns that have been AGREED with the BMA. And the evidence that they will all get 40% pay cuts is...................nowhere to be found. They would be constantly screaming it out if there was any evidence. Let's suppose that if you look at a particular OCCASIONAL shift pattern of full weekend working. That PEAK earning week might go down, but with the 13.5% increase for all the other days, the average won't change. Apparently the BMA only want a basic increase of 4-7% and not the 13.5% offered. Sounds like the BMA ALSO agreed to whatever pay cuts there turns out to be. The NHS has the doctors working hours data and can carry out "what if" scenarios and other modelling to check the impact. They are better placed to identify the true level of impact. The November offer has "time off in lieu for additional work", whereas the current offer pays the appropriate rate until the hours limits are hit, and then it is time and a half.

Channel 4 factcheck from Nov 2015

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I was actually in A& E one night. And there was NO DOCTOR on duty. They had to call in an agency Locum

I ask members of this forum, IF you were a Doctor, Nurse. Would you work in the NHS

Answers please

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Well, since the NHS employs* 150,273 doctors and 377,191 qualified nursing staff, out of a total of 1,161,884 employees, which is 1 in 32 of the U.K. working-age population, some probably do...

*figures from January 2016

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Hugh.,

Anyone who works for the NHS, has my upmost respect

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Maybe we should just be paying more for this service, i.e. as much as some of our peers in Europe:

UK health spending as a share of GDP

List of countries by total health expenditure per capita

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Perhaps I should've tried shouting you might have realised I was describing the early negotiations that way, I thought I was being quite clear using words like back then etc and here's a link going back then to, wasn't that hard to find either

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ay-40-per-cent

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

So still no evidence.
With the 13.5% the basic goes up to 26,105. Difficult to be sure what day of the week he is referring for the evening work(until 9pm). Under the current contract, only Mon-Fri 7-9pm and weekends attract any extra. Under the new contract the 5-9pm on Saturday and all day Sunday attracts an extra 33% on top of the 13.5% basic. That gives 51% extra for just those hours. Any basic rate(at the extra 13.5%) Saturday 7am-5pm, should possibly more than be made up with the extra 13.5% for the Mon-Fri. As for the working for free, the proposal is to pay at the "prevailing rate" for those extra hours, and if it puts them over the 48hr average or 72hr weekly limits they get time and a half. The main impact to him seems to be the basic(ie+13.5%) for the one Saturday in 4, but just think of all the other Mon-Fri work days with 13.5% raise. Just 3 days of that cover the 40% gap and the other Mon-Fri work days in that 28day period will add even more. An average of 4.5hrs/week, affected on the new basic(+13.5%). Unless those are pretty much the only hours he works, sounds like he will be in for a pay rise rather than a pay cut.

The only real differences to the BMA proposals seem to be the 2 hours 7-8am and 8-9pm Mon-Fri and 7am-5pm Saturday. But at the same time they are only looking for a 4-7% basic raise and not the 13.5% offered.

Does that sound like anything to get worked up about and go on strike for?

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Maybe we should start funding healthcare the same way the rest of the developed world does rather than in a manner emulated only by communist states.

Much of the rest of the first world may have a point with funding through a combination of single payer and private insurance.

As Hugh identified we spend about as much taxpayer money on healthcare as many of our peers but lack the private sector funding that compliments it elsewhere.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I thought we'd already established Hunt was lying when he said the strike was all about money

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

:confused: You were the one talking about 40% cuts in pay. If it's not about pay, what can it be about? The concessions from the Dept of Health have mainly been pay related. The hours related parts of the contract have been agreed.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I feel for your friend, the insane headaches I had a few weeks back was sinus related, and the pain was absolute insanity. I can barely walk but I stood waiting outside my gp office to make sure I got an appointment that day on the tuesday it opened following the horrible 4 day easter holiday period. Really shocking for a GP to only offer a june date now, no same day appointments?

Also regarding 7 day services, its not quite what it seems e.g. if the nhs is open more days a week its not as if it will be used more, it simply prevents people waiting till the following monday, so e.g. GPs are most busy on mondays as there is a backlog of people who have had to wait over the weekend, so a 7 day nhs will sort of balance of the other 5 days.

This brings me to another point.

I wonder how much appointments would be saved at GPs if drugs were made not needing a prescription?

e.g. increase the dosage of co codamel a chemist can provide without doctor authorisation, allow other drugs that normally need a prescription and bam lots of workload gone from GPs. Anti biotics e.g.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

We should look at the best solution in our peer economies and see if these are a better fit than our current model which doesn't deliver the necessary funding.

As for Hugh's point, this seem to show that there are a number of our EU neighbours that spend more public monies on healthcare:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-percapita.svg

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

You've read the statement from the bma, it even says in there it's not all about pay

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

As I pointed out, you were the one saying that the junior doctors were complaining about a supposed 40% drop in pay. I pointed out that using your sole example, they would probably end up earning more. I also asked the question, if not about pay, what is it that "deserves" a strike? Still unanswered, of course.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

to add to my previous comment regarding anti biotics, this is what I would do.

1 - change some prescription drugs to no prescription needed. To relieve pressure on GPs.
2 - Add a system that these drugs when acquired from a chemist the nhs medical card and photo id needs to be presented.
3 - chemist clerk enters onto system drugs have been issued.
4 - repeat drugs cannot be issued for next 6 months without prescription.

so this prevents abuse.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Well no not of course as it was answered days ago

junior doctors concerns extend far beyond pay

http://web2.bma.org.uk/pressrel.nsf/...3?OpenDocument

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

tbf, the others are pretty wooly (like wanting world peace and love to all)

Those are all subjective, rather than objective.

And it's amusing the BMA talking about recruitment, when they were the ones in 2008 that stopped doctor training being expanded.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

... and if they can't get their way, rather than giving those they claim to care so much about an almost 'world class health service', they'll effectively make it even worse by resigning en masse and going to work abroad in countries which don't have an equivalent NHS...

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

That was just 4 days ago from today, even less days from when I asked the question.
And ALL of that is connected to pay. That still leaves the key issues of, if it's not about pay, what is it all about and does it justify strikes. They are being amply compensated for the changes in definitions of unsocial hours and have received a concession of an EXTRA 30%(on top of the 13.5%) for Saturdays when working more than one weekend in a 4 week period. By only asking for a 4-7% basic rise, the BMA are admitting that the 13.5% offer, financially covers Saturdays being treated as "plain time".

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Yes and I posted it on the day you asked the question as well

Staff recruitment and retention isn't all about remuneration you know

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Well that's specific isn't it.:rolleyes: So what is, or isn't the new contract in relation to that? What has anybody, including the BMA said is required? And it all comes back to, does that justify a strike?

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

It's pretty specific if you want a service at all at the end of the day and yes it does justify a strike in the opinion of their members who voted overwhelmingly in favour of strike action.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I REPEAT, "So what is, or isn't the new contract in relation to that?" It's a simple question. If it's the basis of the strike then it will have had be made public and widely known.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

So you're saying it's not forming part of the negotiations, wonder why the contracts legality is going to be questioned in court regarding discrimination if so.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Actually, it's whether the Health Secretary has the power to impose a contract that is being challenged, not whether the contract itself is legal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6988831.html

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Or it could be there's a lot of legal action going on

The BMA, in its legal claim, alleges that the government failed to "pay due regard" to the equalities impact of the new contracts and is calling for a judicial review.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35959865

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

We're not talking about shelf stackers here. If somebody has spent 2 of the last 5 years away from medicine, IT MATTERS. They are in TRAINING. If actually being present doesn't matter, why aren't the ones that stay there, given the same level of credit? If somebody has spent 2 of the last 5 years away, shouldn't that make them equivalent to somebody who has spent a full 3 years, and certainly not ahead of somebody who has spent a full 4 years. That would be the real discrimination.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

http://news.sky.com/story/1698292/ju...ct-deal-agreed


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7036376.html



Junior Doctors To Vote As Contract Deal Agreed
No further strikes will be called ahead of the vote which follows 10 days of "intensive" talks aimed at breaking the deadlock.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

At last common sense has prevailed hopefully..

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

It'll be intriguing to find out what has changed to make the contract acceptable and render the accusations that it was unsafe for patients no longer applicable.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Good news for all involved.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Well they have only agreed to put it to a vote..Let's wait until the ballot is finished and keep our fingers crossed in the mean time.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Will be interesting to see whether the changes were enough to justify a strike. The differences seemed to be fairly minimal, and the Dept of Health had already made concessions in their favour, eg increased %age pay rise, some increases for Saturday working.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Well it seems that, according to leaked BMA emails, pay was the main reason for their stance on the strikes and it was an opportunity to stick it to HMG:

http://order-order.com/2016/05/26/se...real-red-line/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...blame-the-bma/

http://www.hsj.co.uk/topics/workforc...ontentID=15303

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36714792

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Mmmm. Seems the Doctors are more ****ed off that we and their Union leaders thought. That's bad news for all of us, on top of the anticipated exit of foreign staff.. NHS RIP.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Not so sure its the death of the NHS Mr K....

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

You were right to be cautious :).

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I think they are from a generation of spoiled brats we seemed to have have bred this day and age.

They want everything for nothing and don't want to work for anything. I certainly don't support them I think they are being greedy and its about time we start putting our foot down

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Good job not everyone thinks like you..And good luck getting treatment if they all do decide to go work somewhere else..

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Under the agreed terms, junior doctors who work seven or more weekends a year will receive premium pay on Saturdays and Sundays.

Night shifts lasting for more than eight hours would also be subject to an enhanced pay rate of 37%, and a basic pay increase of between 10% and 11% was also agreed.


So what do you propose they should get then?

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

We should demand a "return of service" from them .They need to be made to realise that their training costs a lot of money and most other countries make them pay themselves

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I work for the NHS and these guys while I agree are way up there from what I do but we don't get any good deals...what 1%

Working for the NHS and seeing the inside of what happens I think they are being greedy and want for nothing

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I don't know what more the government can do ,they have given them everything they wanted and more .

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Maggy there has to be limits, the contract been offered is extremely generous.

Difficult to deal with this, but imposing the contract seems the most logical way forward.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

It's not gone away despite Mr hunts best efforts to avoid being scrutinised and soon he'll be in court rather than the Andrew Marr show where you can only hope he and his fictitious claims can be tested by someone with more expertise than a tv presenter

http://www.justiceforhealth.co.uk/

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Still missing the bit where it says what on earth are they striking about? Long hours? No can't be that as the hours are being REDUCED.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

And how does that work with a shortage of staff?:confused:

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

And what on earth has that got to do with the CLAIMED reasons for the strike?:confused::confused::confused:

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

The real issue that there isn't enough staff to provide the 5 day care in hospitals let alone 7 days which is what the initial strikes were about. No amount of fiddling about with schedules will ever solve that..We need more staff to cover the shortages there are alrady.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

None of the banners said that. The ballot form didn't say that. The BMA and the Royal College of Physicians have said that a 7-day NHS is a good idea. Any new schedules have NOTHING to do with the junior doctors and the new contract. The new contract is just something that will help enable it to happen at some time in the future.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Is this some mythical far off future, where they have much more staff and a lot more money? There isn't enough resources for 5 days a week let alone 7. Amazingly my hospital seems to be open this weekend, so maybe its a one off weekend opening event.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

No it's not, it's about pay, like it always is in any dispute.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

For me it's about the blatent lies hunts told, the dodgy reports he's wheeled out that will be exposed in court with a little luck. This country, sit on the floor of a train and all hell breaks loose but mishandle something as important as the health service and no one bats an eye lid, unless of course you're a now cheesed of member of staff or a terrified patient.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Yeah.........but it's about pay.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Didnt the boss of the union quit as he even was disgusted with the vote result of the new contract?

Junior Doctors
 

http://news.sky.com/story/majority-b...rikes-10562560

Even though Junior Doctors have imposed further and longer strikes. I still support them.

What we have here is a Government, who wants to impose longer hours on Drs, especially Juniors. And will make Consultants who are probably are on six figures, to pull there fingers out and help there colleagues

Hospitals are overstretched as it is. A very dear friend of mine is in hospital and has been told he has Cancer. And the chances of survival are minimal. The Nursing/ Drs surrounding him are marvellous.

I have actually told them they deserve Double money. Remember, these Drs are saving lives. Not pen pushers from Whitehall or local authorities. Who sit and give out orders.

What Theresa ay has to do is SACK the Health Secretary, sit down with these Junior Doctors and sort this matter out. Listen to there grievances. And then deal with it.

They have my 100% support

Re: Still support them
 

Longer hours?:confused:
Same or more pay for less hours and better rest periods.

Re: Still support them
 

Hunts lied all the way through, what makes you think this contract is worth the paper it's written on, shorter hours but with no extra staff and two extra days to cover, you do the maths and as much as I support anyone's right to withdraw labour I hope we would never hear of a doctor leaving a patient in need of treatment because they'd gone over hours

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Interesting....

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ne...ract-wpzxxjq9r

Re: Still support them
 

The new contract DOES NOT implement 7 days working. That is a matter for EACH hospital when and where it can deliver it. Let's assume for the sake of your ridiculous and spurious argument that shorter hours won't happen. Why would that matter according to them as the CURRENT/OLD hours are longer anyway.:rolleyes: According to the banners, the junior doctors already work weekends. That is in part what they are complaining about.:rolleyes:

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Yes ,Dr Ellen McCourt ,she just makes stuff up as she goes along .She was on the BBC yesterday morning and when told that her figure of 98% of Dr's had voted to strike was a false claim and in reality only around 46% of Dr's balloted voted to strike she just kept repeating "the vast majority of Dr's support the strikes" .The truth is the BMA only balloted members who were affected by the contract ,they didn't ballot all their members ,they only balloted 37,000 ,it should be pointed out that there are upto 20,000 junior Dr's not in the BMA who's opinion is not known
There are also 9000 members who did not vote even though they where balloted

Re: Still support them
 

Why change it at all then if it's going to be the same

---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------

Could be the only reason she supported the deal was because she thought it the best they were going to get, the members thought different. It's quite good in a way as it proves the doctors weren't being led by the nose into strikes by a militant union

Re: Still support them
 

"going to be the same":confused: Anyone would think the they've spent the past 3 years just talking about Saturday pay.:rolleyes:

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Members will NOT like what l am going to say.
I have been at West Middlesex Hospital for the past 4 days, with a neighbour who is dying of Cancer.
While l was there, l was shocked that there were only a couple of Drs on duty. Spoke with a Nurse and was told that a Drs had not turned up for work. Therefore Drs that were on earlier duty. Had to cover there shift.

There were nurses looking after 15 PATIENTS. And everyone was rushing round. I went up to a Dr and asked him about my neighbour, and he advised me that they had a patient in Cardiac arrest.
When l went up to the ward. There were 6 patients in the ward - there was ONE Dr covering THREE WARDS.

These Drs should not have to put up with the crap that Hunt is forcing upon them.

IF you have a dr working FIVE days, you cannot expect them to work SEVEN days on the SAME wage.
Its just stupid.

And l cannot even imagine that Drs would leave a patient who needs vital help, to go off duty. If another Dr wasn't there. Patient Care is paramount to them.

Like the Fireman who went on strike, and there was a major accident. They went to help.

What Hunt and May are doing is wrong. May should be ordering HUNT to sit round a table to the early hours if necessary to sort this problem out.

But, what l think Hunt and May are doing is trying to force the Junior Drs, into a scenario where the public will get on the back.

But that wont happen.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

If you don't support the NHS go private, if you can't go private shut up and understand the NHS is doing its best but is about to be broke by junior doctors!

An junior doctors should find another job if earning what they currently earn does not pay the gas and electric bill.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I like it art, all apart from the bit about your neighbour, I hope they don't suffer.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Would you like to work 18 days a day, seven days a week.

WHY will the NHS go broke. Total rubbish.

The Tories would love the NHS to be private. Then they would not be spending BILLIONS each year on it.

You check all the PRIVATE companies that operate within the NHS, and you will find that the directors are mostly Tory donors.

Even private firms use the NHS for medical services. My sister in law, used a private Medical firm to have an operation. When it went wrong, she was sent to a NHS hospital as a patient to sort it out.

The NHS, would save plenty of money if they got rid of all pen pushers and private firms that operate within it. And carried out the work itself.

Prime example, the catering company where my neighbour is. serve meals to patients at a cost of £2.50 per patients.

And l have seen the crap given. Even a Nurse told us that, its not worth eating.

Parking money could be given to the hospitals. But is goes into greedy companies, that even charge nurses to park.

The NHS is the envy of the world. But there are too many time wasters going there.

Did you read yesterday, where a woman called for an Ambulance to take her to hospital as she had SORE FEET.

If yu go into any hospital - you are bound to find a Private company running some of the shops in there. And charging a lot of money for there products

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Arthur, no doctors work 18 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

What about 18 days a day

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Source linky

This is looking more like a political strike by militants to try to get at the government. :(

It'll all end in tears as the miners found out.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

we had an alternative for coal not sure their is an alternative to doctors;)

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

It's been political for some time imo ,the doctors got what they wanted some time ago but they allow the likes of Dr Ellen McCourt to have power ,she's the BMI version of Athur Scargill

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 ----------

doesn't mean we should be blackmailed a few militants though

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Seems to me that if the doctors want the nuclear option then Hunt should just sack them. A few short weeks of no money and the sane, moderate majority will sign the new contract. The militants will have been weeded out and the shortfall should be made up by recruiting abroad.