re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

:clap:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I want control of our borders, our taxes, our immigration, our work time directive, in other words i want our mp's who were voted for by our people to be able to make rules for our country and our people.

why should some unelected bureaucrat in Brussels be able to dictate to this country what they can and cannot do.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Well said that man :tu:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I think the only MP with any sense that has said anything is the guy from UKIP, if we need the vote for the public, then we should have it NOW, NOT if Cameron gets back in, which he won't.

All Cameron is doing is trying to make a promise IF he gets in power again - whats he scared of, IF he went to the country on that promise, then would almost cerainly lose, as we have heard his promises for.

My prediction for a general election would be

Labour,
UKIP
Cons
Lib Dem

The Tories would lose by a massive margin due to the present situation UKIP would get second, as he has spoken more sense than both Milliband and Cameron and l think thats what we need.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

You're not going to get a Referendum now. Yes he wants it as an election issue but also, if he wants to stay in Europe, it's not advantageous to hold it right away. There won't have been time for a 'Stay' campaign to get underway and make it's case and he is clearly hoping to get some concessions from the EU to increases the chances of the referendum getting the result he wants.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Arthur, he's not an MP, he's an MEP (the irony is that he was elected using the European Proportional Representation - if it had been the UK method of First Past The Post, he would not be an MEP).

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

You appear to be suffering a short-term memory problem. ;)

Cameron has never promised an in/out referendum on our membership of the EU. He promised a referendum on the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. When Labour ratified the treaty before the general election, the idea of a referendum on ratification became meaningless. Cameron therefore dropped that pledge, a full six months before the general election of 2010, and went into that election stating that there would not be a referendum on Lisbon if he became PM.

Yes it is. But having stated that there will be an in/out referendum no later than October 2017 in the event of an outright Conserevative win in the 2015 election, he has committed himself. The only way he can wriggle out of it now is by losing the election.

No, voting UKIP in 2015 will rob Tory candidates in marginal seats of the votes they need to help form an outright Consevative majority. You were right that the pledge is a ploy to get elected; you are wrong to think Camereon will be able to drop the pledge if he wins in 2015.

UKIP will not deliver a referendum because UKIP cannot win in 2015 or in 2020. Our electoral system prevents it. Voting UKIP will deliver another Coalition at best; at worst it will hand the keys of no. 10 to Ed Millipede.

I think the best means of keeping the pressure on Cameron is to vote UKIP at every opportunity short of the general election itself, particularly at the Euro-elections in 2014.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Well lets put it this way, l would rather vote UKIP, than vote for a man who claims he is looking after the voter of the UK, an yet he is nothing but a liar and knows that's by saying what he will do if he wins the next election - he is a liar and doesn't deserve to run this country as PM.

He has made promise after promise, and yet has not fulfilled one of them.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Reminds me of your old m8 B-lier

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I work in a highly regulated business that has to comply with EU rules on medicines and machinery. We have to comply with those rules to be able to sell products to EU countries. If we left the EU, we would still have to comply with those rules. The only difference would be that the UK would have no say in those rules any more. We would still have the downside to working in a regulated environment wihtout the means to influence things.

Just quickly, I see the term 'EU beurocrats hadning out diktats' being bandied about. Do people know how EU laws are written? They still have to go through a voting process via the Council or Europe and/or the European Parliament which consists of members you voted for. People seem to think that proposed laws from the European Commission are a fait accompli - that is not the case, there are rounds of debates, deals, etc. to get a law through to reflect member states interests. This is no different from UK politics - MPs don't write laws, they rely on Civil Servants for that job.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I second that :D

---------- Post added at 09:00 ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 ----------

Firstly just chopped bits out to save space. I understand your point.however (it had to come did it not.)

Do you sell in North America ,Australia etc? If so you would also have to follow the rules & regs.from those country's but have no input into them. So really it make little difference if we are in or out :erm: If not.
a) why? & b) for your company it is a reasonable point.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Quite agree,it always amazes me how people swallow the garbage that if we leave the EU we lose 50% of our trade .Other countries don't trade with us because we are in the EU they trade because we have a product they want at the price they want and that will always be the case .Other countries outside of the EU trade within Europe quite successfully ,no reason at all why that should not be the case for us

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

And the single market is a benefit to such trading. There are also benefits, in the Financial and IT industries at least, brought by the free movement of workers across the EU. I.E Go around Old Street's 'Silicon Roundabout' and see how many companies and workers are from around the EU - Germany, France and Eastern Europe especially.

The waters are muddy. If we're going to start making sweeping claims of the entire sector of people on the other side of the debate then let me have a go. It's the way of Eurosceptics to talk in absolutist terms about the benefits and consequences of the leaving the EU without ever making clear what the alternative is and making assumptions the rest of the time.

We don't know what Cameron's new deal with be or what he is going to lobby for, we don't know what our relationship with the EU will be, we can't use examples from other countries because they don't apply and yet when people talk about the risk to jobs then they're the ones muddying the waters? :confused:

---------- Post added at 10:58 ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 ----------

Just under 50% of our trade is with the EU (additionally some trade to other countries are helped by Free Trade agreements that apply to the EU specifically). The question is what is done to protect that 50% in the event we leave? Not that it will all drop off.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I was under the impression that these organisations and other usch as DIN work together to set a harmonised European Standard. I see more from agencies such as the UKs MHRA for drugs working with other organisations under the European Medicines Agency.

Without a doubt, we would still need to comply with European Regulations as we do with US, Australia, Japan, etc. The difference is, we can have some influence over the EUs regulations while in the EU

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

How many times do l have to say this I DO NOT VOTE LABOUR, my last couple of votes went to Lib Dems - worst mistakes l ever made.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Then again, on 7 April 2010, in the run up to the last General Election, you said:

I've put a couple of bits in bold just so they stand out, as you seem to have forgotten yourself. ;)

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Anyone else think that Dave thinks he's God. and is going to take over the world?

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

There's nothing like a well-reasoned thoughtful post to put things into focus.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

That's a yes then.

I thought so too. he really thinks he's important now amongst all the other 'leaders'
Obama is still the man in my eyes though. Dave will never be in his class.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Chris CFT, you ceratinly do your research, but people change you know.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Once again, you would be wrong - that's a no, then.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

No

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I don't mean he is going to take over the world. just that he thinks he can.

I heard a new nickname for him tonight. Mr Blobby :)

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Well done Gary on giving us the perspective from the kindergarten. :tu:

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Here is a question: Who may vote in the referendum? EU Citizens that effectively live here can vote in local and European elections whereas they cannot vote in the Parliamentary elections. Since EU Citizens can vote in European elections and since this issue could impact upon them will they be allowed to vote in the referendum or will it be limited to UK nationals?

What would happen to EU citizens who live here if we left the EU? Would they get a right to remain or will the Immigration service turn up to turf them out?

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I would prefer that the referendum is limited to UK nationals. As for remaining here after the vote should it be Yes to leaving, i would expect those EU citizens already here would be offered the right to remain

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

True but I have to admit to being quite amused by Gary's post. :D

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

and we would be more able to kick them off state benefits until they have earned them,and if they cannot find a job or will not give up their black market job while claiming benefits then the country they came from can support them using their own benefit system instead of ours

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

If we left the EU, I wonder how this would affect all the Brit ex-pats in France, Spain, Cyprus, etc.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I think it doesn't work like that. I posted this prior albeit no one really followed it up..

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/englan...rom_abroad.htm

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Indeed it will be an issue for them.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I really want to know this. Especially in the other direction.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Lots of info here for brits working abroad

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/claiming-benefits-in-europe

Info for this country here

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_ad...g_and_benefits

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

They can however claim jobseekers ,use the NHS and schools .I realise that it is not simply a case of foreigners turning up and taking our money but outside of the EU we would have a lot more freedom to turn foreign workers away and also asylum seekers who do get housing and benefits

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I don't think they can claim jobseekers until they've worked..

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

they can't claim income based jobseekers
ordinary jobseekers is open to anyone even school leavers who have never worked

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I didn't think there was ordinary or income based. I thought income based was the lower, standard, one (it's means tested based on income) and the other was contribution based where you need to have paid NI for a x amount of years.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I'm not sure how it works to be honest but as far as i know EU/EEA nationals have the same rights as British nationals aside from benefits that need NI contributions.Lets face it if they didn't get benefits the streets would be full of starving immigrants

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The links before suggest they only have the same rights after they've started working for at least three months with more and more of the same rights become available the longer they work.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

So are we only concentrating on benefits and immigration and emigration or is there any discussion to be had about the financial implications for our economy?

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Say something about the economy and we'll see. ;)

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

when i looked i found conflicting information ,i got confused ,my head exploded ,i stopped looking .How on earth anyone is supposed to keep track of this idiotically confusing system is beyond me



I don't see how you can avoid discussing immigration and benefits to foreign nationals in a referendum on leaving the EU thread as that is the first thing people who get to vote on the matter will be thinking of .
Imagine how many jobs would be available if foreign workers had not taken them ,imagine how reduced the benefits bill would be if we weren't supporting foreign workers on low wages ,Imagine how much the country would save if we weren't ploughing billions into the EU .Rightly or wrongly that is what joe bloggs will base their decision on so you can rest assured that every media outlet with an agenda will be pushing that agenda using immigration and asylum until the vote happens

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Indeed you can bet your bottom dollar that the argument for and against our membership of the EU will revolve around immigration and benefits. There will be groups who will intentional exaggerate both sides of the argument as fits there agenda.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

It is far too complicated, on that we agree. From all the links it would seem that EU citizens are not entitled to benefits until they've worked and then it gradually increases until they get the benefits of any British Citizen.

I think they is an obsessive focus on benefits anyway. We seem obsessed with benefits and people taking advantage of it but in the larger benefit it's quite small. The largest expenses by far are pensions, elderly care and the NHS. However these are political nightmares so everyone focuses on benefits which seems an easy target.

I don't think leaving the EU will impact at all on benefits.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

That's probably about right ,certainly how it should be and to be honest benefits to EU immigrants are not top of my list of things i hate about the EU .I worry about the jobs that should be done by British nationals but are done by migrant workers ,i see a lot in the food industry and construction .Why Britain doesn't have workers to take those positions is beyond me .If we can stop the inflow of migrant workers and at least give our own young workers a chance to fill the jobs then we can tackle the low wages and dependency on benefits to make the wage from those jobs liveable but we cannot do that if we remain in the EU

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Just hoping it's not going turn out to be the interminable immigration and benefits cheats thread that EU threads seems to generate.

I'm just wondering how much this could cost us and how it could possibly help as we seem to be entering a triple dip recession.Can we afford to be out of the EU?

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Maybe being in the EU is the reason why we can't get out of recession

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

My personal feeling is that Labour want us in the EU so if they get back power at the next election they can SPEND SPEND SPEND put us even further in the brown stuff and then run to the EU and ask for a bailout.

We are not in the Euro thankfully and now we just need to get out of Germany's little pet project called "Euro domination the financial way" :). The sooner we get back control of our own country the better.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Deliberate avoidance by the government. A referendum will only happen in 2017 if the Tories are re-elected in 2015. ;)

Meanwhile the offer may take some support from UKIP, whilst being fully aware Labour (who may well win in 2015) will not allow a referendum.

Sadly papers such as the Daily Wail will continue to confuse, obfuscate and mislead over all the different aspects of Europe to generate more jingoistic anti Europe feeling.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

It's all too easy to blame the Daily Mail. There are a lot of perfectly sound and intelligent reasons to be ambivalent towards the European Union - you could do worse than to read Daniel Hannan MEP, who writes regularly in the Telegraph. He's a thoughtful and intelligent writer and an advocate of full withdrawal, in the absence of any truly radical loosening of the EU.

Years of stories about the shape of bananas and the reclassification of chocolate didn't bring us to where we are today. The public mood has shifted because it is becoming clear that the long-term economic and social policies of the EU are infringing on our national sovereignty. In that regard, it is finally becoming clear to everyone, and not just the political anoraks, that this organisation is not, was never, and was never intended to be, merely a "common market".

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

^ What Chris said. Daniel Hannan does occasionally write for the Daily Mail and his observations are well worth reading.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I am in the get out soon as camp there may be benefits to being in the the eu but there are also large downsides that might get a lot worse in time to come. Damien you continue to raise the 50% trade argument but as Chris said that figure is diminishing and has been for quite a few years. Trade is the biggest argument to stay in the eu but here's the thing are we better staying in the eu with that trade or breaking away now and developing more longterm lucrative trade with the wider and larger global market. I think the uk's future lies in the wider global market then the eu market.

We also cannot ignore the fact that the eu basically benefits Germany who have done very well out of the eu and France to a lesser degree and they are the one's who determine the direction of the eu using economics to direct the other member states. In the future Germany and France want closer integration and a greater degree of federalism that many people do not want. The vote in the seventies no longer validates the uk's membership as the organisation they voted for bears no resemblance to the organisation that exists today or will exist in future.

Personally I think the only way to have an eu that we could all live with is for all member states to have in/out referendums with national general elections so that Brussels does have to both listen and act in the best interests of the people rather then to some utopian political blueprint.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

And I haven't even started on the "Rotterdam Effect" yet. Hands up who's aware that when compiling export statistics, goods are counted as having been exported to whichever country has the 'port of first discharge'.

A lot of our worldwide exports go to Rotterdam (Netherlands) or Antwerp (Belgium) because these ports have excellent onward connections for places we sell goods to - anywhere else in the world you could name. But because our goods are counted as having been exported to the Netherlands or Belgium, rather than, say, Singapore or India, the result is to inflate our apparent trade with those countries at the expense of our trade figures with the rest of the world. And because both the Netherlands and Belgium are in the EU, the end result is to tip our export figure towards the EU and away from the rest of the world.

The truth is, nobody knows exactly what the real figures are. However, when you look at the amount we export to the other major economies of the EU you can do a little extrapolation. Our apparent exports to Belgium and the Netherlands, per capita, are 3-4 times higher than those to France and Germany (which don't host major international ports through which British exporters habitually send their goods). Reverse the percentages and it's reasonable to postulate that our exports to the EU, far from being somewhere around 47%, are actually nearer 37%.

In short, even if there were any substance to the scare-story that leaving the EU would shut our exporters out of the continent, the impact would be far, far lower than claimed.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Chris is a beacon of light, sound mind and judgement amongst some of the detritus that is posted on this forum.

God bless him. Long may he continue.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The 50% issue keeps assuming that Europe will just continue to decline as an export market. It's declining but today's Europe is hardly indicative given the amount of turmoil in the Eurozone over the last few years. It's not going to go away and become less insignificant. I think when using the fact it's been declining that has to be accompanied by the caveat that this is not a normal situation in Europe at the moment.

I also disagree with the suggestion that this concern is scaremongering. It may not come to fruition but it isn't simply without merit and it's going to remain a concern unless there is a credible alternative. We won't suddenly lose 37%-50% of our exports overnight, no, but we are talking about fundamentally altering our relationship with the countries who take those exports and leaving one of the largest trading blocks in the world.

Some of the largest car companies (Ford, Honda, BMW) are also concerned. This is from some of the largest car producers in the UK, whose managing directors have also expressed that concern.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...ic-speech.html

Ford:

BMW:

Honda:

Additionally the City is concerned. I posted a link to The Economists article a while back but as I was quoting the above article I was also directed to this one:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...f-EU-exit.html

Now obviously there are businessmen that are not found of Europe (albeit warmer to the idea of the single market) but there are business leaders who are concerned with the prospect of us leaving the EU - car makers and bankerss for example - so I am not simply scaremongering when discussing these concerns.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

:tu:

---------- Post added at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:16 ----------

I may be wrong but you seem to be suggesting that the official numbers aren't accurate. How outlandish! I dare say you'll soon be denying that, if we do leave the EU, the Eurozone countries will make us pay the price by cutting off their exports to the UK and forcing us to source alternatives from the rest of the world with all the economic doom that would entail... :)

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Bit harsh considering in the bit just after you highlighted he said he didn't vote Labour ;)

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Not really - Arthur said he is a "strong Labour voter" but would not vote for his Labour candidate for Westminster because "she is crap and she is from Hounslow". Now he appears to be using the fact that he has voted against his Labour MP, for personal rather than political reasons, as basis to claim he is not a Labour voter after all. It can't be both - either he is in principle a Labour supporter or he isn't. I think he is in sympathy with Labour but uses the convenient fact that he doesn't like his local MP to avoid having to actually defend Labour's policies when they are questioned in threads he is taking part in on this forum.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Interesting hypothesis but you'd have to be a moron with the memory of a goldfish to vote for this collection of spivs masquerading as the labour party or even be sympathetic to them.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The problem is there will be lots of goldfish come election time :(

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

And your point being.... ;)

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

And lots of people who just need a break from Dave.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Something we agree on then ... :erm: :D

Although on current polling, that means a little over a third of the electorate have goldfish brains swilling around their skulls.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Problem is none of the other are any better, all they want is an expenses system they can fiddle, the great unwashed just get in there way.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Hang on a sec'. So people on here want a referendum on the EU to let the people decide but don't trust people to vote in a General Election as they might vote Labour.

Can't have democracy only when it suits an agenda!

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

What? Who said they don't want a general election to take place?

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

No, he didn't say that nobody wants a general election.
he said, but nobody trusts people to vote in a General Election when we have one as they might vote Labour.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

That post that has me confused to say the least :confused:

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I think what Jon is saying (I could be way off the mark don't shoot the messenger) is that some of us on one hand are saying give us a vote on EU membership whilst worrying that people will vote labour back in at the next election. I have to be honest I am the same as Maggy I have no faith in the political system as it stands but I know opting out isn't the answer. That said this is about the EU not the wider political scene in the UK. Just give us the damn vote in a years time more then enough time to have a decent debate and does away with the years of uncertainty and gets rid of the ukip problem before any general election job done Dave and no need to lower yourself to trying to bribe the electorate. Go on Cameron have a go at having a real principle and acting on it.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Good luck with that :(

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Yes, sorry, I was in a rush when I wrote that :dunce: That is exactly what I meant, people are clamouring for a referendum of Europe - let the people decide, yay! However, come an election, if Labour won, people are idiots.

Interestingly, it looks like support for leaving the EU is on the slide at the moment. See here

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The actual YouGov survey for the Sunday Times is here - some interesting voting intentions.

And at the YouGov site, some interesting commentary (especially about UKIP).

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Interesting shift in people's currently intentions for a in/out referendum from before the annoucement:

Prior to Cameron's speech:

Remain in the EU: 36%
Leave in the EU: 42%
Not voting: 4%
I dunno: 17%

Afterwards:

Remain in the EU: 40% (up 4%)
Leave in the EU: 42% (down 8%)
Not voting: 4% (up 1%)
I dunno: 17% (up 3%)


Even more interesting is the question of what people would do if we got 'new terms':

Remain in the EU: 55%
Leave in the EU: 22%
Not voting: 5%
I dunno: 18%

Cameron hasn't specified what he wants these new terms to be and it's likely that he'll win some concessions after all. He seems to have played his hand very well.....

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

That lying idiots got a brass neck, his party was an even bigger problem for the UK than any vote would be, he signed away most of our laws and sovereignty to the EU and allowed our gold to be sold at the lowest price they could find.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21312932

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Tony Blair was a huge problem for the UK, second only to the bumbling strutting fool, Gordon Brown.

As we have survived them I have no doubt that we could survive after dumping the EU. In fact I am sure we will thrive after dumping the EU and getting our borders under a sensible control.

Re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

:clap:

I just wish we could dump the EU now.