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-   -   Just had sky fibre installed (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33690591)

Qtx 15-12-2012 18:27

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35512298)
VM's cable is 20 year old copper and can do 5-10Gbps...

You should have seen the state of the cables the openreach engineer was untangling down the man-hole. Ancient would be a word I would use instead of old, so even more surprised at the speeds :erm:

One thing that really threw me was the new sky ip address as it starts and end with the same numbers as my VM ip. For a split second thought we had connected things wrong :D

Chrysalis 15-12-2012 18:41

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Qas I am interested in where it states DLM ignores restarts the first few days, I have heard exactly the opposite including from technical directors of isp's.

Logically what you say makes some sense as during an install the engineer will do a few recconects during his tests but I merely quoted what I heard of others and isp staff.

qasdfdsaq 15-12-2012 22:44

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Those ISP's clearly haven't read BT's own service description

[Edit]
http://www1.btwebworld.com/sinet/498v4p1.pdf
Quote:

On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected. Otherwise, DLM will wait until the day after provision before deciding if it must intervene

Chrysalis 16-12-2012 01:04

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
ok I take that as DLM is more leniant than usual on the first 24 hours but not completely off.

Thanks for the link.

qasdfdsaq 16-12-2012 14:59

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
It's basically off unless it detects 1000+ reboots in that time. It ignores everything else.

Chrysalis 16-12-2012 16:13

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35512783)
It's basically off unless it detects 1000+ reboots in that time. It ignores everything else.

you tested this?

it doesnt seem to be published info so curious how you know. :)

BeerCanSandwich 16-12-2012 20:27

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
It's shocking the difference in BQM graphs between cable and FTTC, must be such a relief to be on something decent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35511986)
Bet its annoying seeing someone who can get 80 decide to stick at 40 lol. Are you a long way from the cabinet?

Hehe, not at all :mad: :)

D-Side is 300M, most of it is aluminium though, the cab serves 600 properties and there are at least 90 active FTTC circuits as of about 1 year ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35511992)
yes I know the FEC and cRC are backwards in the GUI.

I didnt do any graphs before the attainable dissapeared and I am not about to start resyncing to see if it comes back, I will only do that sort of thing if my actual sync drops below 79999.

Cool thought you might seen as your logged in via telnet in one of your screenshots. Was just putting it out there.

No no I'm not suggesting you resync, I'm saying if it hasn't resynced you can still grab the stats because they wouldn't of changed yet for everything so it's still a sort of before snapshot, then when it resyncs grab them again and compare. If the drop is accross the whole range it's likely due to crosstalk, if it's concentrated at specific frequencies then it's interferance. Of course if your not interested then there's no need to bother. If it did go tits up though it would be good to have a before snapshot so you have some proof of past performance should you need to pursue a fault.

Anyway, you still got plenty of spare so enjoy it :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35512298)
Mine's gotten fairly similar after 10 months of increasing crosstalk, though I managed to get it to resync during a power cut when pretty much every electronic device in a mile (except the cabinet and my modem, both of which have backup power) was off so zero interference or crosstalk. So far it's stayed up for 2 weeks at full sync despite the SNRM dropping to 3dB. Still, stable at 80Mb sync aint bad for someone who was predicted 53Mb. But the 110Mb attainable without crosstalk gives me hope for 200Mb when 30a + vectoring come out.

Interesting, it's supprising and frustrating how well it can hang on, mine was at 5.5 for nearly a month without any increased errors or instability before DLM decided enough was enough, the retrain reason was negative margin. It's probably only a matter of time before it reduces you too.

If the default SNRM was 3dB it would have no trouble sustaining the full sync with interleving off. Maybe they will drop it in the future if only just for the marginal lines.

Vecotring would no doubt help but I don't hold much hope for it any time soon, doesn't it need new line cards and CPE?

Chrysalis 16-12-2012 21:00

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
I do have a graph and it hasnt resynced since the attainable went down, the snr graph compared to others I seen doesnt look unusual tho.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2012/12/21.png

qasdfdsaq 17-12-2012 00:10

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BeerCanSandwich (Post 35512953)
Interesting, it's supprising and frustrating how well it can hang on, mine was at 5.5 for nearly a month without any increased errors or instability before DLM decided enough was enough, the retrain reason was negative margin. It's probably only a matter of time before it reduces you too.

Hah. It dropped me onto 8ms DS interleaving despite having zero resyncs and 9dB margin for four months...

Quote:

Vecotring would no doubt help but I don't hold much hope for it any time soon, doesn't it need new line cards and CPE?
Maybe, and no. Sometimes a firmware upgrade is enough on the DSLAM, and and no changes are required on the CPE.

AdamD 17-12-2012 12:51

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Mine's due to be installed today between 1:30 and 3:30pm

Interestingly, the ADSL service went offline this morning for 10 minutes, came back, all seemed ok, but it felt slower, so I checked the modem stats:

Quote:

Modem Status Connected
DownStream Connection Speed 4095 (Normally 18-19mb)
UpStream Connection Speed 606
Also noticed:

Quote:

IP Address 2.122.xxx.xxx
Network Type MER
Where as, my IP normally looks like - 90.192.XXX.XXX

Chrysalis 17-12-2012 15:23

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
if you already on sky adsl then a change is expected as they have to move you to compatible equipment first.

AdamD 17-12-2012 17:15

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Install went aok, not getting the full 40mb, but I can live with 30.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2012/12/18.png

Mick Fisher 17-12-2012 21:06

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
30/9 with a 5ms ping and no jitter is not bad. :)

Chrysalis 17-12-2012 21:29

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
so another new member with proper internet now.

Qtx 17-12-2012 21:40

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamD (Post 35513234)
Install went aok, not getting the full 40mb, but I can live with 30.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2012/12/18.png

5ms is awesome :tu:

Hopefully a nice stable line now

Mr Banana 17-12-2012 22:29

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35513406)
so another new member with proper internet now.


Yep, counting all the posters in this thread, that's 10 of you who now have proper Internet as you call it.

Qtx 17-12-2012 22:36

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Top banana (Post 35513480)
Yep, counting all the posters in this thread, that's 10 of you who now have proper Internet as you call it.

We need to get you a sand removal kit ;)

Just received the free £100 marks and sparks vouchers too. Nice Xmas pressie from sky, didn't expect them for a few months!

jb66 17-12-2012 22:38

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35513490)
We need to get you a sand removal kit ;)

Just received the free £100 marks and sparks vouchers too. Nice Xmas pressie from sky, didn't expect them for a few months!

wow! skys fantastic, whoop whoop

Mr Banana 17-12-2012 22:40

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35513490)
We need to get you a sand removal kit ;)

Just received the free £100 marks and sparks vouchers too. Nice Xmas pressie from sky, didn't expect them for a few months!


Well done I am pleased for you, personally I don't need any hand outs

Qtx 17-12-2012 23:02

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jb66 (Post 35513497)
wow! skys fantastic, whoop whoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top banana (Post 35513502)
Well done I am pleased for you, personally I don't need any hand outs

The patheticness is is laughable ;)

AdamD 17-12-2012 23:43

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35513416)
5ms is awesome :tu:

Hopefully a nice stable line now

Yea and that's on a wireless connection to, so not bad at all.;)

Qtx 17-12-2012 23:45

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamD (Post 35513534)
Yea and that's on a wireless connection to, so not bad at all.;)

Even more impressive if that is wireless :D

Is that the router Sky give you?

AdamD 18-12-2012 00:02

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
When I did that test, yes.

That was the first speedtest I ran, might've been coincedence though, as the average ping I get now, is anywhere from 12-17ms (which isn't bad either, really)

Average ping to the BBC is 15ms

But I am using another router right now, I'll try switching to the sky one again in a sec.

---------- Post added at 23:02 ---------- Previous post was at 22:57 ----------

Yea, same kinda ping going through the sky box, 15-16 on average using speedtest.net and pingtest.

Qtx 18-12-2012 00:16

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Still nice and low and the added bonus it will be stable :)

AdamD 18-12-2012 21:47

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Very and it's so nice to be able to watch Youtube videos again, without any buffering.
hehe

AdamD 20-12-2012 17:53

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Nom nom nom
Your Sky Broadband
  • Sky Fibre Unlimited Cancellation in progress
  • Sky Fibre Unlimited Pro Awaiting activation

Mick Fisher 20-12-2012 19:21

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamD (Post 35514628)
Nom nom nom

Your Sky Broadband
  • Sky Fibre Unlimited Cancellation in progress
  • Sky Fibre Unlimited Pro Awaiting activation

So you can't get enough of a good thing then :)

Chrysalis 20-12-2012 19:42

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
haha.

Qtx 21-12-2012 00:53

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamD (Post 35514628)
Nom nom nom
Your Sky Broadband
  • Sky Fibre Unlimited Cancellation in progress
  • Sky Fibre Unlimited Pro Awaiting activation

:tu:

Did you cancel your VM line too?

qasdfdsaq 21-12-2012 11:30

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamD (Post 35514628)
Nom nom nom
Your Sky Broadband
  • Sky Fibre Unlimited Cancellation in progress
  • Sky Fibre Unlimited Pro Awaiting activation

Why would you upgrade to 80Mb when you can't even make full use of the 40Mb service?

AdamD 21-12-2012 12:06

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35514925)
Why would you upgrade to 80Mb when you can't even make full use of the 40Mb service?

Because as I've found out, it doesn't matter if you can't hit the full 40, or 80mb, upgrading still grants you a higher speed.

I'm getting between 60 and 67mb down, 16-19 up. (And that's with 3 people using the connection, including my dad torrenting...heh)

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2012/12/11.png

http://www.speedtest.bbmax.co.uk/res...833&v=18229417

---------- Post added at 11:06 ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35514829)
:tu:

Did you cancel your VM line too?

Yep.
They've called me three times now to ask why, ;)

http://www.pingtest.net/result/74253747.png

Different server

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2012/12/12.png

Qtx 21-12-2012 12:30

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Awesome! 71.5 Mb/s isnt bad at all and the 17 Mb/s is seeding bandwidth I would guess XD

How much extra was the Pro on top? I forgot to ask them before.

Virgin called me a ton of times, sometimes a few days in a row. The last guy said maybe they can sort out my network problems with an engineer lol. I know its their job and training but I couldn't be arsed to explain there would be no quick fix.

AdamD 21-12-2012 13:37

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Pro is an extra £10 on top, I primarily upgraded for the upload speed (I am due to start making gaming videos to upload to Youtube, thus, needed the upload speed)

Total cost from memory is £44.95 a month, with the sky phone line. (£30 for Fibre pro, £14.95 for sky talk/rental)

But, it's the only true unlimited broadband in the UK these days, so it's worth the price I think.

Qtx 21-12-2012 18:33

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Not bad for a tenner more.

Paying the same as you but mine is 40/10, phoneline and Sky 2TB HD+ box with Entertainment extra package. Still cheaper than I was paying virgin and faster broadband along with lots of channels compared to the M+ I had. It was the unlimited/unshaped that made me decide on sky over the others too. Might have gone for Plusnet if they had removed their limits sooner.

Chrysalis 21-12-2012 21:33

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
if you have a HG modem then unlocking it and disabling QoS will also give around 10% extra throughput on the upstream. From looking at speedtests of ECI modems I think they dont have any such issue in their locked state.

ferretuk 21-12-2012 22:01

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamD (Post 35514986)
it's the only true unlimited broadband in the UK these days

A good article here as to why that may not be such a good thing...

http://community.plus.net/blog/2012/...affic-managed/

muppetman11 21-12-2012 22:19

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamD (Post 35514986)
Pro is an extra £10 on top, I primarily upgraded for the upload speed (I am due to start making gaming videos to upload to Youtube, thus, needed the upload speed)

Total cost from memory is £44.95 a month, with the sky phone line. (£30 for Fibre pro, £14.95 for sky talk/rental)

But, it's the only true unlimited broadband in the UK these days, so it's worth the price I think.

I believe you can also choose to pay 12 months line rental upfront if you wish , bringing your line rental down to an equivalent of £9.95 a month.

Qtx 21-12-2012 22:33

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ferretuk (Post 35515198)
A good article here as to why that may not be such a good thing...

http://community.plus.net/blog/2012/...affic-managed/

Nothing in that article at all to suggest its not a good thing :)

It would be preferential that ISP's sent out their hub/routers with a QoS setting turned on as default, to manage prioritisation of a homes traffic at a local level. Isp's who want to add more customers without paying out to upgrade their infrastructure to handle them, will traffic shape/prioritise traffic and tell the customers that its for their benefit :)

Sky must be the only ones confident of their network and bandwidth at the moment.

qasdfdsaq 22-12-2012 07:40

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamD (Post 35514945)
Because as I've found out, it doesn't matter if you can't hit the full 40, or 80mb, upgrading still grants you a higher speed.

It shouldn't work that way. Something is/was broken if that's the case.

---------- Post added at 06:38 ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamD (Post 35514986)
But, it's the only true unlimited broadband in the UK these days, so it's worth the price I think.

Uhh, my BT is true unlimited and £10 a month less

---------- Post added at 06:40 ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35515209)
Nothing in that article at all to suggest its not a good thing :)

It would be preferential that ISP's sent out their hub/routers with a QoS setting turned on as default, to manage prioritisation of a homes traffic at a local level. Isp's who want to add more customers without paying out to upgrade their infrastructure to handle them, will traffic shape/prioritise traffic and tell the customers that its for their benefit :)

Sky must be the only ones confident of their network and bandwidth at the moment.

The problem is downstream prioritization must be done at the ISP end to be effective. Your router can only prioritize upstream properly, although for most people that's enough because upstream tends to be slower and cause more latency when it fills up.

It's better to have it done at the ISP end and by default for your average layman who would know nothing about "QoS" or "protocols". In which case it simply provides a better "out of the box experience", which is what the vast majority of people would stick with anyway.

AdamD 22-12-2012 18:57

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35515331)
Uhh, my BT is true unlimited and £10 a month less

---------- Post added at 06:40 ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 ----------


So BT doesn't throttle in anyway, or have a fair usage policy? :rolleyes:

Chrysalis 22-12-2012 19:23

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
it doesnt have FUP but does throttle P2P quite brutally (at least on my line). I guess what Qas means since he doesnt use p2p for him tis effectively true unimlimited. Also his area is much more leniant on p2p than mine.

qasdfdsaq 23-12-2012 11:13

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamD (Post 35515527)
So BT doesn't throttle in anyway, or have a fair usage policy? :rolleyes:

Throttle != usage limit.
Fair usage policy != usage limit.

No usage limit = unlimited. Perhaps you should try a dictionary. :rolleyes:

Qtx 23-12-2012 18:18

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35515632)
Throttle != usage limit.
Fair usage policy != usage limit.

No usage limit = unlimited. Perhaps you should try a dictionary. :rolleyes:

You have to remember that Virgin have b*****ised the word unlimited for so long that the word is no longer taken at face value when it comes to describing broadband. Slightly different to CocaColas red Santa outfit campaign but.....

Or maybe the confusion is because both the following BT products claim to be unlimited yet have traffic shaping on P2P according to BT's own web page:

BT Total Broadband Option 3
BT Infinity Option 2

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/12/7.png

Those typical peak hours listed is for 8 hours of the day, a third of it. Or at weekends... 15 out of 24 hours, two thirds of the day.

qasdfdsaq 23-12-2012 18:25

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
But that's got nothing to do with usage limits... this is the bit you should be looking at:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/12/6.png

The generally accepted usage of "Unlimited" as defined by the industry regulators is no significant speed reduction, restriction, disconnection, or additional charges for going over any particular amount of usage.

Basically put there will be absolutely no change in the speed or cost of your connection nomatter how much or little you use.

Qtx 23-12-2012 18:47

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35515776)
The generally accepted usage of "Unlimited" as defined by the industry regulators is no significant speed reduction, restriction, disconnection, or additional charges for going over any particular amount of usage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35515632)
No usage limit = unlimited. Perhaps you should try a dictionary. :rolleyes:

You can't tell someone to use the dictionary meaning of the word unlimited while you are using an industry regulator definition. That is not fair ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35515632)
Throttle != usage limit.

This is how BT describe the way they limit P2P during peak times "Slowed down". A dictionary would probably tell you that the word throttle is based on throttle valve, which is a valve used to slow something down, such as a gas, a liquid or....possibly BT broadband? :erm:

Ergo, you pay extra for unlimited which could actually be limited at some time :)

Chrysalis 23-12-2012 19:36

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
BT are ok with their advertising because the p2p exclusion is clearly shown on the product page. Not super hidden away like VM tend to do.

AdamD 24-12-2012 01:51

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Well it's been AOK since it was installed, much like our Sky ADSL2+ service was
So I'm happy.

qasdfdsaq 24-12-2012 18:11

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35515797)
You can't tell someone to use the dictionary meaning of the word unlimited while you are using an industry regulator definition. That is not fair ;)

Except they both agree with each other, only one has specific detail relating to the particular situation.

ferretuk 24-12-2012 19:00

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35515776)
But that's got nothing to do with usage limits...

Not aware that Qtx has mentioned usage limits so why are you changing the subject?

Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35515776)
this is the bit you should be looking at:

Edit by ferretuk - Table omitted

Disingenious of you to omit the lines of text immediately preceding the table you show, so allow me (I've added the bold)

Section 1: Traffic management in relation to your broadband product (not including during busy times and places to manage network congestion. See section 2)


Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35515776)
The generally accepted usage of "Unlimited" as defined by the industry regulators is no significant speed reduction, restriction, disconnection, or additional charges for going over any particular amount of usage.

Basically put there will be absolutely no change in the speed or cost of your connection nomatter how much or little you use.

So the change in P2P speed for 8 hours each weekday and 30 hours of the weekend isn't 'significant'?

Chrysalis 24-12-2012 19:23

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
it is but as I said because BT specifically show it as excluded on the product page before order its ok by ASA standards.

qasdfdsaq 25-12-2012 13:07

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ferretuk (Post 35516117)
Not aware that Qtx has mentioned usage limits so why are you changing the subject?

Ermm that's the only context the word "unlimited" is used in when it comes to broadband.

Unless you seriously think people believe adverts touting unlimited broadband are referring to infinite speed connections...


Quote:

Disingenious of you to omit the lines of text immediately preceding the table you show, so allow me (I've added the bold)
Hardly, the entire table that refers to, which is irrelevant, has already been posted. Scroll up.

Quote:

So the change in P2P speed for 8 hours each weekday and 30 hours of the weekend isn't 'significant'?
Not when there is no change and nobody's forcing it on you. Your speed and usage are still entirely unlimited subject to the maximum capabilities of your line/service.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 ----------

ASA standards say nothing about protocol shaping when it comes to unlimited usage because they're nothing to do with each other.

Chrysalis 26-12-2012 05:34

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35516272)
Ermm that's the only context the word "unlimited" is used in when it comes to broadband.

Unless you seriously think people believe adverts touting unlimited broadband are referring to infinite speed connections...


Hardly, the entire table that refers to, which is irrelevant, has already been posted. Scroll up.

Not when there is no change and nobody's forcing it on you. Your speed and usage are still entirely unlimited subject to the maximum capabilities of your line/service.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 ----------

ASA standards say nothing about protocol shaping when it comes to unlimited usage because they're nothing to do with each other.

Actually they do Qas. Although its vague its there.

qasdfdsaq 28-12-2012 18:12

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

"Unlimited" Broadband Rules

* The term "unlimited" can only be used if the customer incurs no additional charge or suspension of service as a consequence of exceeding a usage threshold associated with a Fair Usage Policy (FUP), a traffic management policy or similar."

There is no usage threshold associated with a fair use policy, traffic management policy, or similar that results in additional charge or suspension of service when it is exceeded.

Neither the fair usage policy or traffic management policy have a usage threshold of any kind. Thereby, it is unlimited.

Qtx 29-12-2012 00:56

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35517198)
There is no usage threshold associated with a fair use policy, traffic management policy, or similar that results in additional charge or suspension of service when it is exceeded.

Neither the fair usage policy or traffic management policy have a usage threshold of any kind. Thereby, it is unlimited.

As said in another thread, it is unlimited by an industry definition but it is limited if you go by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.

Sky is still the only unlimited ISP going by the real meaning of unlimited. ISP's who traffic manage certain protocols are...limiting the connection. Just that they are allowed to use unlimited as they don't limit in other ways,

qasdfdsaq 29-12-2012 14:29

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35517389)
As said in another thread, it is unlimited by an industry definition but it is limited if you go by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.

No internet connection in existence is unlimited by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.

Quote:

Sky is still the only unlimited ISP going by the real meaning of unlimited. ISP's who traffic manage certain protocols are...limiting the connection.
Sky's is not unlimited. The connection speed is limited, at all times, to either 40Mb or 80Mb. That is traffic shaping all protocols. Therefore, by your definition, a limit.

Qtx 29-12-2012 16:42

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35517510)
No internet connection in existence is unlimited by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.


Sky's is not unlimited. The connection speed is limited, at all times, to either 40Mb or 80Mb. That is traffic shaping all protocols. Therefore, by your definition, a limit.

I do see where you are coming from. I just don't agree with you saying your BT line is unlimited when it clearly has nasty traffic management/shaping, which is what this discussion stemmed from. Sky is the only ISP which does not play with customers traffic in the way BT, Virgin, Plusnet etc do. That is all that needed to be clear.

ferretuk 29-12-2012 21:10

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35517198)
"Unlimited" Broadband Rules

* The term "unlimited" can only be used if the customer incurs no additional charge or suspension of service as a consequence of exceeding a usage threshold associated with a Fair Usage Policy (FUP), a traffic management policy or similar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35517198)
There is no usage threshold associated with a fair use policy, traffic management policy, or similar that results in additional charge or suspension of service when it is exceeded.

Neither the fair usage policy or traffic management policy have a usage threshold of any kind. Thereby, it is unlimited.

Selective quoting again... Full text for the benefit of all:

Quote:

"Unlimited" Broadband Rules

* The term "unlimited" can only be used if the customer incurs no additional charge or suspension of service as a consequence of exceeding a usage threshold associated with a Fair Usage Policy (FUP), a traffic management policy or similar.

* Limitations that do affect the speed or usage of the service must also be moderate only and clearly explained in the advertisement.
I don't read it that the second bullet point is a subset of the first - It stands on its own. Nothing about usage thresholds...

Alternatively - P2P traffic will be reduced in speed after downloading 0B between the prescribed 'peak hours'.

BT do clearly explain the limitation on their website so the second sentence is satisfied. Is the reduction 'moderate' would seem to be the sticking point as this parameter is not defined.


---------- Post added at 20:10 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35517510)
No internet connection in existence is unlimited by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.


Sky's is not unlimited. The connection speed is limited, at all times, to either 40Mb or 80Mb. That is traffic shaping all protocols. Therefore, by your definition, a limit.

And now the argument descends to ridiculous levels (again!)

Chrysalis 29-12-2012 21:56

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35517510)
No internet connection in existence is unlimited by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.


Sky's is not unlimited. The connection speed is limited, at all times, to either 40Mb or 80Mb. That is traffic shaping all protocols. Therefore, by your definition, a limit.

qas sorry I cant back you on this there is a clear difference.

if you go on what you are trying to define then by that logic not a single thing in existance is unlimited.

There is a very clear difference between selling a specific up to speed and then allowing a free for all on all protocols. Then doing the same thing but artifically restricting specific usage patterns. The latter sigificantly can reduce an isp's costs whilst saying their product is the same to customers.

My guess is if found a BT advert that doesnt mention clearly p2p is excluded the ASA would uphold a complaint I make. Dont assume companies get it right over consumers on legalities, because I did a complaint against VM to the ASA, I was the only complainent and the decision was upheld against all of VMs lawyers.

Also have to think what the average person thinks unlimited is, and you are the first person I have come across trying to explain it the way you have.

---------- Post added at 20:56 ---------- Previous post was at 20:53 ----------

Ferret what BT dont mention tho is p2p upload is throttled 24/7 to around 1/20 max speed. It is in the small print but not made clear.

qasdfdsaq 31-12-2012 16:58

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ferretuk (Post 35517721)
I don't read it that the second bullet point is a subset of the first - It stands on its own. Nothing about usage thresholds...

Disagree. "must also" implies "in combination with".

It cannot be in combination with something if it stands on its own.

---------- Post added at 15:58 ---------- Previous post was at 15:53 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35517740)
if you go on what you are trying to define then by that logic not a single thing in existance is unlimited.

That's my point. Only one very specific attribute is "unlimited" and that is the only one they are talking about.

Quote:

There is a very clear difference between selling a specific up to speed and then allowing a free for all on all protocols. Then doing the same thing but artifically restricting specific usage patterns. The latter sigificantly can reduce an isp's costs whilst saying their product is the same to customers.
Selling a car with a 200mph top speed and "unlimited" mileage doesn't mean you can always drive at 200mph all the time, wherever you are.

Quote:

Also have to think what the average person thinks unlimited is, and you are the first person I have come across trying to explain it the way you have.
I am?

http://infinityfibrebroadband.com/20...limited-usage/

Because these guys describe "truly unlimited" as "no individual user controls targeted at atypical or heavy users on our BT Total Broadband and BT Infinity products.” and "allowing them to use as much bandwidth as they wish"
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35517740)
My guess is if found a BT advert that doesnt mention clearly p2p is excluded the ASA would uphold a complaint I make.

Go on then...
http://www.dmsluk.co.uk/business_pro...roadband.shtml


Quote:

Ferret what BT dont mention tho is p2p upload is throttled 24/7 to around 1/20 max speed. It is in the small print but not made clear.
It isn't. I get between 1/3rd and 1/1 max speed. There is no specific, constant, or usage defined cap.

Chrysalis 02-01-2013 00:40

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35518318)
Disagree. "must also" implies "in combination with".

It cannot be in combination with something if it stands on its own.

---------- Post added at 15:58 ---------- Previous post was at 15:53 ----------


That's my point. Only one very specific attribute is "unlimited" and that is the only one they are talking about.

Selling a car with a 200mph top speed and "unlimited" mileage doesn't mean you can always drive at 200mph all the time, wherever you are.

I am?

http://infinityfibrebroadband.com/20...limited-usage/

Because these guys describe "truly unlimited" as "no individual user controls targeted at atypical or heavy users on our BT Total Broadband and BT Infinity products.” and "allowing them to use as much bandwidth as they wish"

Go on then...
http://www.dmsluk.co.uk/business_pro...roadband.shtml


It isn't. I get between 1/3rd and 1/1 max speed. There is no specific, constant, or usage defined cap.

its consistent here. It is also consistent for most BT customer's, I dont know if you are special or not. The consistency been reported by various people is a upload speed of around 1mbit/sec on p2p protocol 24/7, the inconsistency is in the download throttling.

However you seem to have completely misunderstood the ASA regulations, they dont care if its a specific limit, they just care if its moderate or not. If it had to be constant then it may well be a regulation that doesnt exist as all a isp would have to do is slightly adjust it each day and then say its excluded.

To summarise on unlimited broadband products all limitations of service have to be clearly described on advertising material, based on past ASA decisions, having it in the small print is not good enough anything not described and is above moderate affect on the service is in breach. The ASA dont proactively look for breaches they act on reports.

and your car analogy is a big fail, the reason you cant do 200mph is due to road laws. You getting nowhere making make believe comparisons that are not a comparison, there is no law stating p2p has to be throttled.

qasdfdsaq 02-01-2013 20:43

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
I think you've misunderstood the ASA regulations. The ones we're talking about pertain to usage limits and usage limits only. Nothing to do with traffic management, shaping, or limiting. That's a completely different aspect of the service and covered by completely different guidelines.

As for the consistency, well clearly it isn't consistent if your results are completely different to mine. Last I was on 40/10 P2P was limited to 3Mbps upload some weeks and no limit at all other weeks. Since upgrading to 80/20 it's either 3Mbps or 20Mbps upload and I haven't seen anything in between.

As far as I'm concerned for unlimited products the only limitations that have to be clearly described or absent are usage based limits. Non-usage based limits that apply the same nomatter what service a user's on or how much they used, are entirely irrelevant.

And finally, no, the reason you can't do 200mph is not because of road laws, it's because you don't expect to be able to all the time. There is no road law saying you can never do 200, there are plenty of roads with no speed limits, both in this country and elsewhere. People are used to and fully expect that there will be other limitations in place, and that is perfectly normal. The same goes for your internet connection, everybody expects there will be limitations to most of the time on any service that have nothing to do with your utilization.

ferretuk 02-01-2013 21:46

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35518936)
I think you've misunderstood the ASA regulations. The ones we're talking about pertain to usage limits and usage limits only. Nothing to do with traffic management, shaping, or limiting. That's a completely different aspect of the service and covered by completely different guidelines.

No, that's what you're talking about. The point you've missed is that others are questioning the limits imposed on products that are following guidelines and advertised as unlimited. The guidelines are vague and references to 'moderate' etc are open to interpretation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35518936)
And finally, no, the reason you can't do 200mph is not because of road laws, it's because you don't expect to be able to all the time. There is no road law saying you can never do 200, there are plenty of roads with no speed limits, both in this country and elsewhere. People are used to and fully expect that there will be other limitations in place, and that is perfectly normal. The same goes for your internet connection, everybody expects there will be limitations to most of the time on any service that have nothing to do with your utilization.

Your analogy was flawed however. A closer analogy would be buying a car that can do 200mph, subject to applicable laws and general traffic flow, but finding that the car dealer imposes a further restriction that the car will only do 20mph if you want to drive between London and Newcastle on the A1 in peak periods of their choosing, irrespective of whether the road is busy or not. This was advertised in the brochure of course, so that's all right then :)

Chrysalis 06-01-2013 10:01

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Qas where is usage limit mentioned in this statement?

Quote:

Limitations that do affect the speed or usage of the service must also be moderate only and clearly explained in the advertisement

AdamD 06-01-2013 13:10

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
I think Qas is operating on a different plane of reality
I find it best just to ignore (block) people like that, it saves getting a headache over it. :P

Chrysalis 06-01-2013 13:27

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
I wont be blocking Qas as he is a valuable contributer, I just find his opinion on this a bit odd but I will agree to disagree with him.

qasdfdsaq 07-01-2013 03:32

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35520031)
Qas where is usage limit mentioned in this statement?

In the first part of that paragraph which I assume you deliberately left out.

Tezcatlipoca 19-03-2013 22:01

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
I've just ordered Sky Fibre Unlimited at last :)

craigj2k12 20-03-2013 06:48

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35550627)
I've just ordered Sky Fibre Unlimited at last :)

:woot: :woot:

pabscars 20-03-2013 15:56

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35550627)
I've just ordered Sky Fibre Unlimited at last :)

I doubt you will be disappointed :)

Mick Fisher 20-03-2013 17:07

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35550627)
I've just ordered Sky Fibre Unlimited at last :)

Good for you :)

I hope the install goes as planned and you finish up with a great connection.

Qtx 24-03-2013 16:02

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
4 months after being installed and the weekend/evening lag is annoying me now...

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/s...24-03-2013.png

....the lack of lag makes these graphs look so boring :(

Not bad enough to make me want to return to Virgins lag though :D

Mick Fisher 24-03-2013 16:06

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
What he said :)

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/s...24-03-2013.png

Qtx 24-03-2013 16:12

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Love the uniformity of yours Mick! Perfect image for OCD network peeps :)

pabscars 25-03-2013 16:17

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35552684)
Love the uniformity of yours Mick! Perfect image for OCD network peeps :)

It is good but I prefer your latency :)

craigj2k12 25-03-2013 18:04

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Im running a web server on port 80, as well as a few other services so of course my graph looks awful :D

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2013/03/13.png

---------- Post added at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was at 17:04 ----------

But for the OCD among us I do agree too many spikes...

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/02/14.png

Central 09-04-2013 20:30

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Now on unlimited Pro with Sky

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2013/04/35.png

craigj2k12 10-04-2013 00:37

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Welcome to proper broadband

Tezcatlipoca 10-04-2013 00:56

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Still waiting for mine.

The guy who took the original order screwed up somehow by making separate orders for the line rental and the Sky Fibre (although we have Sky BB Unlimited we still had BT line rental due to being customers before the Sky line rental requirement), causing the Sky Fibre order to automatically be rejected due to "overtaking" the line rental order.

So, we had to wait for the line rental swap to take place, and *then* order sky Fibre again.

Did that on Saturday, and the new installation date is Monday 22nd April...

Still got the same deal, though :) Half-price line rental for 6 months + no installation fee + half-price fibre for 3 months :)

pabscars 10-04-2013 09:51

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Thats a sweeter deal than I got Matt, having said that I didnt haggle, I just rang up and said where do I sign :).

I decided to go ahead and try the new router (SR101) but couldnt get Sky to send me one for nowt, so Ive just bought one of Ebay for 30 brand new and in the box :)

I very kind forum member had previosuly got my WRT610N router to work on OpenWrt firmware but it proved to be just too buggy in the end so I had to revert back to the older Sagemcom unit.

I also noticed last night that web pages seemed slow to load (unusual) so I did a sweep of the area and found that Sky are now providing BB to most of my neighbours and we were all on the same wireless channel (No1), set it channel 3 and it has improved now thankfully, but fingers crossed the SR101 will improve things further.

qasdfdsaq 10-04-2013 13:21

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2013/04/34.png

Spike-o-matic?

pabscars 10-04-2013 15:04

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Wowzers qas, I thought you had more base latency than that, have you been playing :)

craigj2k12 10-04-2013 16:03

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35559359)

Still dont get why mine is so "spike-o-matic" even under zero usage

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

pabscars 10-04-2013 16:08

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Ive seen similar spikes on mine under zero usage and wondered if it was to do with the Sky plus box being connected ???

Your running your own router arent you ?

craigj2k12 10-04-2013 16:51

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pabscars (Post 35559443)
Ive seen similar spikes on mine under zero usage and wondered if it was to do with the Sky plus box being connected ???

Your running your own router arent you ?

Yup, that graph is under zero usage as well, only my computer was connected at the time

pabscars 10-04-2013 16:59

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Talking of time it's repeated precisely every hour, not on the hour but every hour

Just had my digital micrometer up to the screen to make sure, but it's not quite every hour exactly actually :)

Qtx 10-04-2013 18:30

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pabscars (Post 35559461)
Just had my digital micrometer up to the screen to make sure, but it's not quite every hour exactly actually :)

Going by the logic your screen detects when you leave the computer to make a hot beverage and during that time the computer is ferociously downloading anything it can, stopping only when the screen detects your presence again?

pabscars 10-04-2013 19:13

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35559495)
Going by the logic your screen detects when you leave the computer to make a hot beverage and during that time the computer is ferociously downloading anything it can, stopping only when the screen detects your presence again?

:) You might be onto something there :erm:

Tezcatlipoca 10-04-2013 19:34

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pabscars (Post 35559305)
Thats a sweeter deal than I got Matt, having said that I didnt haggle, I just rang up and said where do I sign :).

I decided to go ahead and try the new router (SR101) but couldnt get Sky to send me one for nowt, so Ive just bought one of Ebay for 30 brand new and in the box :)

I very kind forum member had previosuly got my WRT610N router to work on OpenWrt firmware but it proved to be just too buggy in the end so I had to revert back to the older Sagemcom unit.

I also noticed last night that web pages seemed slow to load (unusual) so I did a sweep of the area and found that Sky are now providing BB to most of my neighbours and we were all on the same wireless channel (No1), set it channel 3 and it has improved now thankfully, but fingers crossed the SR101 will improve things further.


I'd seen that signing up for the phone line rental online would have given half-price for 12 months (offer for existing customers still with BT for line rental), but that for the Sky Fibre it was only new customers who got no installation fee + half-price for 3 months.

So I phoned up and asked "are there any deals you can give me?" :)

Only 6 months half-price for the line rental, instead of 12, but being given the same deal as a new customer for the Sky Fibre gave a greater total saving than doing the phone line sign-up online.

As for the SR101 "Sky Hub"... I thought that that was supposed to be free for all Sky Fibre customers, new and old?

Qtx 10-04-2013 19:53

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35559519)
So I phoned up and asked "are there any deals you can give me?" :)

Only 6 months half-price for the line rental, instead of 12, but being given the same deal as a new customer for the Sky Fibre gave a greater total saving than doing the phone line sign-up online.

It is nice when a provider treats existing customers as well new ones :tu:

craigj2k12 11-04-2013 01:59

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
1 Attachment(s)
Heres 2 weeks worth of graphs, as you can see the blip happens at intervals just over 1 hour, without stopping, but lessening in height, then once they get close to disappearing, they go back to being big again. Strange.

Chrysalis 16-04-2013 10:37

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by craigj2k12 (Post 35559458)
Yup, that graph is under zero usage as well, only my computer was connected at the time

craig as already said to you is due to the router.

I have tried a fair few routers on mine and I see different patterns for each router.

craigj2k12 16-04-2013 11:04

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
I have tried different routers to the same effect though

pabscars 16-04-2013 11:44

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Heres mine whilst using the SR101 hub, nothing my side going on to cause the spikes

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/s...16-04-2013.png

---------- Post added at 10:44 ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35559519)

As for the SR101 "Sky Hub"... I thought that that was supposed to be free for all Sky Fibre customers, new and old?

Not if youve already got the sagemcom (and its working), I bought one off Ebay in the end for 30 brand new and in the box

Tezcatlipoca 16-04-2013 20:10

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Oh. Weird. I guess that means my deal was even better :) (sorry :erm: )

pabscars 17-04-2013 09:32

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35561725)
Oh. Weird. I guess that means my deal was even better :) (sorry :erm: )

:D I wont hold it against you,



On a separate note I was hosting 5 player matches on Black Ops 2 last night between 9:30 till 11:30 pm and no real sign of lag or the router bogging down which is good news for the SR101 imo, my TBB monitor (see above post) didn't show any issues either.

Tezcatlipoca 17-04-2013 19:44

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
I actually received a *second* free Sky Hub today! I guess it's due to the initial cock up in the order.

pabscars 17-04-2013 19:52

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35562106)
I actually received a *second* free Sky Hub today! I guess it's due to the initial cock up in the order.

Always handy to have a spare :), if not they regularly fetch 30 odd quid on ebay.

Tezcatlipoca 22-04-2013 11:26

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
I'll keep it as a spare :)

---------------



Had my Sky Fibre installed this morning by an extremely friendly and helpful Openreach engineer called Robyn :)

She sorted out the Data Extension, and made sure that everything was up and running before she left.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2013/04/15.png

pabscars 22-04-2013 11:40

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Sweet ping there Matt, have you logged into the router to see what your syncing at initially, your getting pretty much exactly the same as me, my router says I'm on 39,998 kbps Downstream and 10,000 kbps Up.

Should be plain sailing from here on :)

Tezcatlipoca 22-04-2013 11:48

Re: Just had sky fibre installed
 
Yeah, I've logged in and the router says it's synced at 40 down and 10 up.

The BT & Sky checkers said we could get up to 50something, so we could have gone for Sky Fibre Pro but I don't think it would have been worth the extra 10 for just another 10Mbps.


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