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Sirius 10-05-2012 00:35
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35425791)
Looks like Sirius and me were right about you

Indeed i think we are

MovedGoalPosts 10-05-2012 02:19
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
My attention has just been drawn to this thread. Frankly I can't believe some of the comments I've been reading. Everyone is reminded of our terms of use that specifically you must not post material that is ..vulgar .. or otherwise objectionable. Whilst by all means you may debate the topic, and the case, to make flippant remarks in apparent support of such serious abuse is unacceptable.

Osem 10-05-2012 08:48
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Seuss (Post 35425790)
Actually that is quite strange given the biological fact that girls are at the nubile peak between about 12 and 16, but that's a whole other thread.
Hopefully one which will stay in your head where it belongs.

Ramrod 10-05-2012 09:28
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
...........and the reward for the most red rep's garnered in one day goes to......:rofl:

Gary L 10-05-2012 09:50
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35425787)
Strange as it may seem to you, I don't find 13 to 15 year old girls sexually attractive - they're just kids.
You should see my neighbours 14 year old daughter. she'd make you change your mind :)

but yes. all this is very bad. and I'm not happy that the police ignored it when it was brought to their attention.

martyh 10-05-2012 09:59
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
This is quite worrying

Quote:
It is of great concern that the chairman of the British National Party appeared to have been aware of the verdicts before they were even communicated to the court," he said.
"We are left with no option but to conclude that the confidentiality of the jury's deliberations must have been breached and we submit the proper inference should be drawn that there must have been improper communication from within the jury room to Nick Griffin and perhaps others."
If true then could this could be grounds for a mis trial ?

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16224681

Maggy 10-05-2012 10:49
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35425863)
This is quite worrying



If true then could this could be grounds for a mis trial ?

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16224681
Full quote



Quote:
But members of the defence team said they plan to appeal the sentences, claiming the race issue unfairly influenced the case - and even the deliberations of the jury.
Alias Yousaf, the lawyer for Adil Khan who was jailed for eight years, said outside the court there had been attempts by right-wing organisations to influence the outcome "from the outset of this trial".
"It is of great concern that the chairman of the British National Party appeared to have been aware of the verdicts before they were even communicated to the court," he said.
"We are left with no option but to conclude that the confidentiality of the jury's deliberations must have been breached and we submit the proper inference should be drawn that there must have been improper communication from within the jury room to Nick Griffin and perhaps others."
He didn't offer any proof,just insinuations.

martyh 10-05-2012 11:24
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35425873)
Full quote





He didn't offer any proof,just insinuations.
Well lets hope no one was feeding Griffin with information especially considering he tweeted 100% accurate verdicts 2 days before the verdicts where announced in court .It's not the first time that information has been passed outside from the jury .But as you say the are un proven allegations and have been examined by the judge ,who it has to said may be a little blind to certain issues .

Maggy 10-05-2012 11:27
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Well we will see won't we.I suspect that whatever happens they will serve a prison sentence of some duration.:)

martyh 10-05-2012 11:34
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35425891)
Well we will see won't we.I suspect that whatever happens they will serve a prison sentence of some duration.:)
Indeed .I wonder if the sentences would have been harsher if race had been included as one of the factors,because i have no doubt that any appeal will be centered about race

Damien 10-05-2012 11:46
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35425888)
Well lets hope no one was feeding Griffin with information especially considering he tweeted 100% accurate verdicts 2 days before the verdicts where announced in court .It's not the first time that information has been passed outside from the jury .But as you say the are un proven allegations and have been examined by the judge ,who it has to said may be a little blind to certain issues .
Couldn't he have simply guessed? It seems quite likely. After all I think we all presumed they would be found guilty...

martyh 10-05-2012 12:32
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35425894)
Couldn't he have simply guessed? It seems quite likely. After all I think we all presumed they would be found guilty...
He could have done but the problem is that when he tweeted he predicted exactly that 7 had been found guilty ,and under investigation it was revealed that at the time of the tweet it reflected the current thinking of the jury at the time they reached those decisions in the jury room .So although it is possible that he guessed it right at the time it is unlikely .Griffin recanted later and said he had heard about the verdicts on Facebook


Quote:
As the jury was making their deliberations under conditions of strict secrecy, BNP leader Nick Griffin tweeted that seven of the defendants had been found guilty.
Urgent inquiries established that he was correct about the jurors’ current thinking, leading defence barristers to allege that one of their number must have been in communication with the extremists.
Mr Griffin later suggested he had heard about the verdicts on Facebook – apparently on the page of far-Right splinter group, Infidels of Great Britain.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-arrests.html

Julian 10-05-2012 13:57
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
How can " urgent enquiries " establish what the jury's current thinking was at that time?

As anyone who has served on a jury knows NOONE is allowed to know what is discussed, that inludes Judges and anyone else.

Damien 10-05-2012 14:36
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
If it is the case that a Juror was relating information to the BNP then surely it would have to be a mistrial? Not only because of the leaking but the juror's impartiality would be very questionable as would the faith that the verdict was not influenced by others.

nomadking 10-05-2012 14:41
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Or did he just come to similar conclusions to the jury about the strength and reliability of evidence against each of them?

Osem 10-05-2012 14:54
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
If a retrial is ordered, I hope the same standards will be applied as were in the Lawrence case where it was deemed that, even allowing for years of highly public accusations, claims etc. about the defendants, it was still considered possible for them to have a fair trial.

martyh 10-05-2012 16:44
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35425957)
Or did he just come to similar conclusions to the jury about the strength and reliability of evidence against each of them?
How would he reach the same conclusion on 7 out of nine of the defendants at the same time ,it would take a mighty coincidence in my book

nomadking 10-05-2012 17:09
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426017)
How would he reach the same conclusion on 7 out of nine of the defendants at the same time ,it would take a mighty coincidence in my book
If the evidence as presented to the jury and in public was only strong enough to convict 7 of them, then coming to the same conclusion is not that different from having a jury of 1000 people coming to that same conclusion. It's when a jury decision defies all the evidence that there should be suspicion.

One of those acquitted was only charged with conspiracy, which tends to be difficult to prove.

martyh 10-05-2012 17:13
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35426035)
If the evidence as presented to the jury and in public was only strong enough to convict 7 of them, then coming to the same conclusion is not that different from having a jury of 1000 people coming to that same conclusion. It's when a jury decision defies all the evidence that there should be suspicion.

One of those acquitted was only charged with conspiracy, which tends to be difficult to prove.
You mis understand ,how would he know that the jury had reached a verdict at all on 7 of the defendants ,he should have had no idea if any verdict had been reached on any of the defendants untill they were announced i court

Maggy 10-05-2012 17:23
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
I(f it is true I hope Griffin goes to jail.

Can an MEP still stand if imprisoned?:erm:

nomadking 10-05-2012 17:25
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426037)
You mis understand ,how would he know that the jury had reached a verdict at all on 7 of the defendants ,he should have had no idea if any verdict had been reached on any of the defendants untill they were announced i court
I don't know what the procedure is when juries can't come to a unanimous or majority verdict. Do they report their progress? ie Agreed on 9, no agreement yet on other 2? It would not need a juror to leak any info.

martyh 10-05-2012 17:31
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35426041)
I(f it is true I hope Griffin goes to jail.

Can an MEP still stand if imprisoned?:erm:
no idea ,but lets strip him of his MEPship and send him to jail just to be sure :D

---------- Post added at 16:31 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35426043)
I don't know what the procedure is when juries can't come to a unanimous or majority verdict. Do they report their progress? ie Agreed on 9, no agreement yet on other 2?
Honestly don't know ,but i thought the same as others that a jury is not meant to communicate with anybody apart from court officials for advice untill they have a reached a verdict.In this case they had multiple defendants with which to reach a verdict so i assume that they must reach a verdict on all defendants before announcing anything

Hugh 10-05-2012 18:00
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
From the Telegraph
Quote:
But inquiries carried out by the police and the Crown Prosecution Service showed that the message, which the court heard was first published on the Infidels of Britain website, was published at a time when the jury was in its jury room where all electronic equipment is banned.

Judge Clifton said that ''having heard that the jury deny any improper behaviour'' he was ''satisfied that no juror is at fault in communicating the jury's position, either deliberately or accidentally to anyone else''.

''That means that the question of bias doesn't arise at all,'' he said.
''I have found no evidence to suggest a juror is at fault.''

''The jury have been strictly confined in their jury room during most of the period that some of these tweets manifested themselves.''
Also, the verdict was announced on Tuesday 8th May, and the tweet was sent by Nick Griffin Thursday 3rd May (and immediately back-tracked) - if the verdicts had been reached, what were the jury doing for the rest of the time?

martyh 10-05-2012 18:10
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35426054)
From the Telegraph

Also, the verdict was announced on Tuesday 8th May, and the tweet was sent by Nick Griffin Thursday 3rd May (and immediately back-tracked) - if the verdicts had been reached, what were the jury doing for the rest of the time?
reaching a verdict for the remaining defendants ? there where 11 on trial i believe

Hugh 10-05-2012 18:20
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Small point, but fairly relevant - Nick Griffin's tweet last Thursday said 7 had been convicted, but all the reports this Tuesday said 9 out of 11 had been found guilty....

martyh 10-05-2012 18:32
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35426061)
Small point, but fairly relevant - Nick Griffin's tweet last Thursday said 7 had been convicted, but all the reports this Tuesday said 9 out of 11 had been found guilty....
That's the whole point Hugh .What prompted the investigation was how did anyone know that the jury had reached verdicts on 7 of the defendants ,this was confirmed as the jury's "current thinking" at that time ,and no-one should have been privy to that information.

Hugh 10-05-2012 18:48
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Nobody does know if anyone knew that the jury had reached verdicts - just because (and I know this may be stating the bleeding obvious) Nick Griffin says something, doesn't mean it is true....

You state
Quote:
this was confirmed as the jury's "current thinking" at that time
No one has confirmed this, just a throw away comment in a report, because, as was stated earlier in the thread, discussions about what went on in the jury's deliberations are secret, and to talk about them outside the jury room is illegal (according to section 8 of the Contempt of Court Act 1981, it is an offence for anyone to "obtain, disclose or solicit" any arguments, opinions or statements made by jurors in the course of their deliberations).

martyh 10-05-2012 18:57
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35426069)
Nobody does know if anyone knew that the jury had reached verdicts - just because (and I know this may be stating the bleeding obvious) Nick Griffin says something, doesn't mean it is true....

You state No one has confirmed this, just a throw away comment in a report.
Thing is though Hugh in this case he was right ,so right that a investigation was done to try to find out how he knew enough to post a tweet with a "Breaking news" title that proved to 100%correct at the time where actually reaching that verdict .It's either one hell of a guess or he had an insider giving him information

Hugh 10-05-2012 20:10
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
But marty, it's not been proved to be 100% correct - no one has provided evidence to back that up (and how could they, due to Section 8 of the Contempt of Court Act 1981).

Willing to be proven wrong, though - but I have searched, and can't find any evidence besides one of the defence lawyers* saying so....

*and he is obviously unbiased, and has no reason to make those statements.....

martyh 10-05-2012 20:35
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35426097)
But marty, it's not been proved to be 100% correct
Yes it has

Quote:
But the tweet led to eight defence counsel calling on Judge Gerald Clifton to discharge the jury before it delivered verdicts after investigations revealed Griffin's comment to be a "100% accurate" reflection of its deliberations so far
Quote:
But inquiries carried out by the police and the Crown Prosecution Service showed that the message, which the court heard was first published on the Infidels of Britain website, was published at a time when the jury was in its jury room where all electronic equipment is banned.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...n_1499817.html

this has been in all the media outlets since the verdict was announced ,i appreciate that the cps and police say they found nothing untoward but have as yet failed to explain how the information got out, aside from it being a massive coincidence or a good guess ,which quite frankly i find implausible

http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/1...in1_normal.jpg@nickgriffinmep
Nick Griffin MEPNews flash. Seven of the Muslim paedophile rapists found guilty in Liverpool.
May 3, 2012 12:52 pm via txtReplyRetweetFavorite





The wording of that tweet suggests he had just been given that information.
I hope i am wrong and i hope that idiot Griffin won't be responsible for a retrial but i don't think it is the last we have heard of this .On the other hand a retrial on the grounds of jury tampering could mean stiffer sentences and the end of Griffins career :)

Osem 10-05-2012 21:08
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35426041)
I(f it is true I hope Griffin goes to jail.

Can an MEP still stand if imprisoned?:erm:
Not if he's shackled to the bed. :D

Hugh 10-05-2012 21:24
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
marty, again stating the obvious, but it was the defense lawyers* calling for a mis-trial, stating that the tweet was 100% correct - they have provided no evidence for that statement (unless I missed something).

It can only be stated the information was accurate / got out if it can be corroborated - just saying that it was accurate / it did get out (as the defence lawyers are) doesn't make it so.....

*who obviously have not ulterior motive in having a mis-trial declared....

danielf 10-05-2012 21:39
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35426121)
marty, again stating the obvious, but it was the defense lawyers* calling for a mis-trial, stating that the tweet was 100% correct - they have provided no evidence for that statement (unless I missed something).
Actually, the bit from The Huffington Post is ambiguous:

Quote:
But the tweet led to eight defence counsel calling on Judge Gerald Clifton to discharge the jury before it delivered verdicts after investigations revealed Griffin's comment to be a "100% accurate" reflection of its deliberations so far.
It's not clear at all who did the investigation and who made the claim about 100% accuracy.

martyh 10-05-2012 21:41
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35426121)
marty, again stating the obvious, but it was the defense lawyers* calling for a mis-trial, stating that the tweet was 100% correct - they have provided no evidence for that statement (unless I missed something).

Just saying it doesn't make it so.....

*who obviously have not ulterior motive in having a mis-trial declared....
yes you are missing something
Hugh i have given you evidence that states the it was the judge ,the police and the cps that said the tweet was correct .The defence lawyer is repeating the judges findings

Quote:
"An inquiry by the judge of the jury revealed that this report was true in that they had found seven defendants guilty.

It's not me just saying it or the defence lawyer just saying it ,it is fact and ,all the recent reports are suggesting that it will form the basis of the appeal .It is fact that the tweet happened ,it is fact that it was correct ,it is fact that it was tweeted at the time the jury had reached the guilty verdict of 7 defendants ,what is not known is how the information got out ,the judge has dismissed it as coincidence ,the defence lawyers,understandably, are sceptical of that conclusion

danielf 10-05-2012 21:48
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426128)
yes you are missing something
Hugh i have given you evidence that states the it was the judge ,the police and the cps that said the tweet was correct .The defence lawyer is repeating the judges findings


Quote:
"An inquiry by the judge of the jury revealed that this report was true in that they had found seven defendants guilty.
It's not me just saying it or the defence lawyer just saying it ,it is fact and ,all the recent reports are suggesting that it will form the basis of the appeal .It is fact that the tweet happened ,it is fact that it was correct ,it is fact that it was tweeted at the time the jury had reached the guilty verdict of 7 defendants ,what is not known is how the information got out ,the judge has dismissed it as coincidence ,the defence lawyers,understandably, are sceptical of that conclusion
Where did you get that quote from Marty?

martyh 10-05-2012 21:50
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35426126)
Actually, the bit from The Huffington Post is ambiguous:



It's not clear at all who did the investigation and who made the claim about 100% accuracy.
as per one of my other links it states that the cps and the police conducted an inquiry on the instruction of the judge because the tweet was 100% accurate

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35426132)
Where did you get that quote from Marty?
sorry forgot the link


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...n_1502412.html

Hugh 10-05-2012 23:19
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Marty, you have misread that - nowhere does it state the judge ordered the investigation because it was 100% accurate, he ordered it because of the accusation there had been a leak - two different things....

It was one of the guilty defendant's lawyer's who stated
Quote:
Speaking on Wednesday as his client was sentenced to eight years in jail, Yousaf said: "An inquiry by the judge of the jury revealed that this report was true in that they had found seven defendants guilty.
Do you think he may be bending the facts a little, as the judge states elsewhere in that same article
Quote:
When the matter was brought in front of the court. Judge Clifton said that "having heard that the jury deny any improper behaviour" he was "satisfied that no juror is at fault in communicating the jury's position, either deliberately or accidentally to anyone else".
I know who I would believe about what the judge said....

TheDaddy 10-05-2012 23:36
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35425893)
Indeed .I wonder if the sentences would have been harsher if race had been included as one of the factors,because i have no doubt that any appeal will be centered about race
if proven the sentence would've been harsher no doubt, trouble is it's quite hard to prove a hate crime, a guy I went to school with was murdered by an Asian gang a few years back and they were screaming racial abuse as they kicked him to death but apparently that wasn't a hate crime according to the cps

---------- Post added at 22:36 ---------- Previous post was at 22:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35426069)
Nobody does know if anyone knew that the jury had reached verdicts - just because (and I know this may be stating the bleeding obvious) Nick Griffin says something, doesn't mean its true).
My default position with Nicky is that he's telling lies almost every time he states something anyway.

Osem 10-05-2012 23:44
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35426178)
if proven the sentence would've been harsher no doubt, trouble is it's quite hard to prove a hate crime, a guy I went to school with was murdered by an Asian gang a few years back and they were screaming racial abuse as they kicked him to death but apparently that wasn't a hate crime according to the cps
Sadly that doesn't surprise me.

martyh 11-05-2012 00:04
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35426172)
Marty, you have misread that - nowhere does it state the judge ordered the investigation because it was 100% accurate, he ordered it because of the accusation there had been a leak - two different things....

It was one of the guilty defendant's lawyer's who stated

Do you think he may be bending the facts a little, as the judge states elsewhere in that same article

I know who I would believe about what the judge said....
we'll just have to wait until the appeal to get the full details ,i wouldn't imagine a judge would comment for fear of prejudicing any future action and i don't think any lawyer/barrister would comment about such improprieties without good cause or he may find himself in a lot of bother

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35426178)
if proven the sentence would've been harsher no doubt, trouble is it's quite hard to prove a hate crime, a guy I went to school with was murdered by an Asian gang a few years back and they were screaming racial abuse as they kicked him to death but apparently that wasn't a hate crime according to the cps
.
Apparently some of the defendants told police upon arrest that it was motivated by race which was dismissed by the police and the judge

Quote:
. "Some of you, when arrested, said it was triggered by race," he continued. "That is nonsense. What triggered this prosecution was your lust and greed."
To me that just reinforces my belief that the police and cps are worried about bringing race into criminal matters especially when other serious charges like rape are involved.I don't think the judge grasps the idea that the group of men satisfied their greed and lust with white British girls because they were white and British ,they could probably have found some Chinese or Polish girls to satisfy their greed and lust

RizzyKing 11-05-2012 00:57
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
It seems that everyone is scared of calling anyone but white people racist if this had been a gang of 11 white men doing this to only asian girls racism would be assumed not asked if it was a part of it. Thats the trouble in the UK and a root cause of a lot of bad feeling racism is not evenly applied even when it should be. Sorry but the most hateful racist rubbish i ever heard didn't come out of the mouth of a white person and whilst i have known many racist white people i have also known as many non white racists. We need to be more mature about this issue in the UK and not be scared of it or allow it to be a one race aspect. Racism is present in every community and is practised by every community and we should start debating it with that in mind instead of allowing it to be presumed it is a white to all other races problem.

This case was as much about race as lust and greed and the case and punishment should have reflected that to send the message loud and clear that any form of racism from any group to another is not tolerated in the UK.

martyh 11-05-2012 01:02
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35426206)
It seems that everyone is scared of calling anyone but white people racist if this had been a gang of 11 white men doing this to only asian girls racism would be assumed not asked if it was a part of it. Thats the trouble in the UK and a root cause of a lot of bad feeling racism is not evenly applied even when it should be. Sorry but the most hateful racist rubbish i ever heard didn't come out of the mouth of a white person and whilst i have known many racist white people i have also known as many non white racists. We need to be more mature about this issue in the UK and not be scared of it or allow it to be a one race aspect. Racism is present in every community and is practised by every community and we should start debating it with that in mind instead of allowing it to be presumed it is a white to all other races problem.

This case was as much about race as lust and greed and the case and punishment should have reflected that to send the message loud and clear that any form of racism from any group to another is not tolerated in the UK.
sums it nicely :clap::clap:

Osem 11-05-2012 09:03
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Yup I would tend to agree.

Russ 11-05-2012 09:07
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
My OH has told me this sort of thing is rife in Pakistani communities. Also in some Saudi regions, girls are allowed to marry at 12, 13 etc and this may well have been an influencing factor. I'm pretty sure the police only claimed it wasn't about race to stave off any potential race riots that this would cause had they publicly stated the opposite.

Damien 11-05-2012 09:49
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35426206)
It seems that everyone is scared of calling anyone but white people racist if this had been a gang of 11 white men doing this to only asian girls racism would be assumed not asked if it was a part of it. Thats the trouble in the UK and a root cause of a lot of bad feeling racism is not evenly applied even when it should be. Sorry but the most hateful racist rubbish i ever heard didn't come out of the mouth of a white person and whilst i have known many racist white people i have also known as many non white racists. We need to be more mature about this issue in the UK and not be scared of it or allow it to be a one race aspect. Racism is present in every community and is practised by every community and we should start debating it with that in mind instead of allowing it to be presumed it is a white to all other races problem.

This case was as much about race as lust and greed and the case and punishment should have reflected that to send the message loud and clear that any form of racism from any group to another is not tolerated in the UK.
Only 75% of people charged with a hate crime are white. It seems a high amount but when you consider that white people make up something like 90% of the population then that means they are under represented. It's a myth that minorities don't get punished for racism or hate crimes, it's just an attempt for people to apply victim status to themselves.

The truth is when a member of a ethnic minority is convicted of a hate crime be for racism, homophobia or otherwise then it gets mostly ignored. When a white person does then there is a raft of comments complaining about non-existent double standards.

martyh 11-05-2012 10:03
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35426261)
My OH has told me this sort of thing is rife in Pakistani communities. Also in some Saudi regions, girls are allowed to marry at 12, 13 etc and this may well have been an influencing factor. I'm pretty sure the police only claimed it wasn't about race to stave off any potential race riots that this would cause had they publicly stated the opposite.
There where some disturbances at the kebab shop where this case centered anyway ,despite the shop being under new management,maybe it would have been worse had the police announced it was about race as well as lust and greed but isn't that like burying their heads in sand and ignoring crimes because they don't want to deal with it ?.This was the accusation leveled at the police when this case was emerged last year

Stuart 11-05-2012 10:26
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426191)
To me that just reinforces my belief that the police and cps are worried about bringing race into criminal matters especially when other serious charges like rape are involved.I don't think the judge grasps the idea that the group of men satisfied their greed and lust with white British girls because they were white and British ,they could probably have found some Chinese or Polish girls to satisfy their greed and lust
What they did was bad, regardless of the race of the victims.

I think the reason that they didn't bring race into it is simply that if they did, it is likely that a lot of people would then have focused on the race of the perpetrators and how they were treated by the police, the victims almost forgotten.

The Police have made great strides in dealing with racism amongst Police officers, but there are those who will still leap on the slightest chance that they have been racist.

Maggy 11-05-2012 10:44
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
I'm wondering what percentage of sex offenders are white now.

It really comes to something when what colour/race the perpetrators are is more important than the crime..:mad:

Stuart 11-05-2012 10:54
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35426301)
I'm wondering what percentage of sex offenders are white now.

It really comes to something when what colour/race the perpetrators are is more important than the crime..:mad:
Personally, I think their race is irrelevant. If they raped someone, they did a bad thing. Regardless of either their race, or their victim's.

martyh 11-05-2012 11:23
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35426292)
What they did was bad, regardless of the race of the victims.

I think the reason that they didn't bring race into it is simply that if they did, it is likely that a lot of people would then have focused on the race of the perpetrators and how they were treated by the police, the victims almost forgotten.

The Police have made great strides in dealing with racism amongst Police officers, but there are those who will still leap on the slightest chance that they have been racist.
Not sure that denying the problem is the way forward though.In cases like this we ask various groups like the Ramadhan Foundation to speak out against these people from within their community but why should they bother if we deny it happens.
This sort of crime happens in all communities and is of course wrong and should be dealt with harshly but when it is aggrevated by racial hatred then instead of denying it we need to address it full on instead of pretending it doesn't exist

---------- Post added at 10:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35426303)
Personally, I think their race is irrelevant. If they raped someone, they did a bad thing. Regardless of either their race, or their victim's.
Their race is irrelevant ,i agree but to deliberately target white British girls because they are white and British is very relevant.
However ,having said that we do only have the defendants claim that they where racially motivated which could be true but they could also be trying to aggrevate a already emotive subject out of pure malice ,and in the interests of a fair discussion(and the cool light of day;)) it occures to me that i can't remember the last time i saw groups of Pakistani,indian, etc girls hanging around a kebab shop,so maybe to satisfy their evil intentions they had no choice but to target white British girls

Maggy 11-05-2012 11:53
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
I don't give a turd what their reasons are.The crime is the true fact here and it should never,ever matter when it comes to sexual crimes.

Russ 11-05-2012 12:17
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35426329)
I don't give a turd what their reasons are.The crime is the true fact here and it should never,ever matter when it comes to sexual crimes.
I think that's rather short-sighted. Whereas I agree with it in principle I think there are other factors at work here.

If it is true that in Asian cultures young girls are treated this way, we urgently need to address the matter if it is something being seen to be happening in the UK.

I doubt the result of this case will do anything to deter other like-minded people. If anything I believe it will just make them try harder to not get caught.

nomadking 11-05-2012 12:37
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
If you don't identify the reasons why, then you can't identify any current perpetrators or prevent it from happening in the first place.

Maggy 11-05-2012 13:11
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
They need no excuses or reasons.They merely proffer them as a means of reducing their part in the activity or to point blame elsewhere.

Russ 11-05-2012 13:45
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
I don't think reasons are being offered as mitigation, more like a way to identify future such crimes before they happen.

martyh 11-05-2012 14:04
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35426329)
I don't give a turd what their reasons are.The crime is the true fact here and it should never,ever matter when it comes to sexual crimes.
It should matter what the reasons are ,otherwise how are the police supposed to tackle crimes of this nature in the future .In this case a complaint was made 4 yrs ago but the witness was deemed to be not credible by the cps .Had they taken the alegations seriously and not backed down because of race issues then many young girls would have been spared the awfull crimes against them .
There is of course still a lot to do still as regards sex crimes because we still have a tendancy to try to bury them .It is true that this case hit the headlines because the perpetrators where all asian ,i doubt very much that there would have been the same coverage if they had all been white which is part of the problem imo

Saaf_laandon_mo 11-05-2012 14:14
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35426261)
My OH has told me this sort of thing is rife in Pakistani communities. Also in some Saudi regions, girls are allowed to marry at 12, 13 etc and this may well have been an influencing factor. I'm pretty sure the police only claimed it wasn't about race to stave off any potential race riots that this would cause had they publicly stated the opposite.
When you say this sort of thing is rife, are you refering to raping and grooming of young white girls? Can you elaborate?

Personally, I don;t think this was racially motivated. These men would have picked up young asian girls if they had been available (by that i mean troubled asian girls who could be maniuplated with drink or booze).

I have listened to many talk radio phone ins over the past few days, saying how this is a Pakistani cultural issue, or how this is a Pakistani Muslim culture, both views which I think are totally incorrect and generalise a community negatively.

Also I find it interesting that when you have a group of pakistani perpertrators their race and culture hasd become a huge issue. When you have reports of child cruelty, paedophillia rings in the UK (where the majority of convicted perpertrators have been White and in a lot of cases English) their race/ethnicioty is never an issue. They are judged as evil, simply because of what has been done.


Although I do not agree with child brides, yes it happens in Saudi and no doubt it goes on in otjher countries, cultures and religions. By making refering to this in your post, there is an implication that this is a Muslim issue (Pakistani + Saudi must equal muslim), and you are bringing in a religious factor to the discussion.

---------- Post added at 13:14 ---------- Previous post was at 13:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426376)
...It is true that this case hit the headlines because the perpetrators where all asian ,i doubt very much that there would have been the same coverage if they had all been white which is part of the problem imo
The case would have hit the headlines, but the style of reporting would have been a lot different.

There crux of the matter is that this is an abhorent crime which any decent human being would be totally disgusted by and condemn, regardless of race, clour or creed. Unfortunately there are already views that I have read, saying it happens all the time in pakistani communities, oh it's ok because these girls were white, oh they wouldn't do it to their own etc etc etc..... There are calls for community leaders to go on the radio and say that this is not something we agree on etc etc etc.

The fact of the matter is that they are evil *******s, why should their colour or background or religion cause for calls on the wider community to react and defend their culture because people automatically assume it is because of their culture that they have done this?

Hugh 11-05-2012 14:24
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
:gpoint::clap::clap:

martyh 11-05-2012 14:26
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35426379)

Also I find it interesting that when you have a group of pakistani perpertrators their race and culture hasd become a huge issue. When you have reports of child cruelty, paedophillia rings in the UK (where the majority of convicted perpertrators have been White and in a lot of cases English) their race/ethnicioty is never an issue. They are judged as evil, simply because of what has been done.

.
In this specific case i think it was latched onto as a racist case because the perpetrators said it was ,but how true that is we don't know as i said above ,plus groups like the EDL and BNP latched onto this dribbling at the mouth at the prospect of vindicating their hatred for anything non British.

The mistake i think we tend to make is ignoring any race issues or putting them forefront in any crimes .We do need to consider any race issues but not to the extent of putting victims last they must always come first and race issues treated as secondary,not ignored, and dealt with separately so as not to confuse the real issue which in this case was rape and exploitation.

Make no mistake that the BNP and others have managed to cloud this issue to the extent where the victims have virtually been forgotten about and because of there actions may result in a retrial where the victims will have to go through all the pain of testifying again and i think these groups should be taken to task over it

Russ 11-05-2012 14:55
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35426379)
When you say this sort of thing is rife, are you refering to raping and grooming of young white girls? Can you elaborate?
In Leicester there are a large number of Asian gangs who go looking for teenage girls to use for their own ends. Usually it doesn't matter which race or colour they are but still some target whites. Usually the gangs impress the girls by buying them gifts, driving fast cars etc and make them think they're now boyfriend/girlfriend. They keep up the pretence until they've won their trust and then the trouble starts.

The gangs then pimp the girls out to others and threaten them with violence against them and their families if they refuse.

Obviously not all Pakistanis are like that and neither are all Pakistani gang members. But it happens a lot. She is part of the Asian community and is privacy to what is talked about, what goes on. She has even been warned about it from her own family when she was growing up.

martyh 11-05-2012 15:00
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35426379)

The fact of the matter is that they are evil *******s, why should their colour or background or religion cause for calls on the wider community to react and defend their culture because people automatically assume it is because of their culture that they have done this?
They shouldn't have to ,but they may need to .It is in the best interests of all to dispel the myth that this sort of thing is inherent in some Asian cultures.I may be wrong but i don't know one culture that allows this sort of behaviour,they have their sex offenders and pedophiles the same as all others and how they treat them differs but child sex is not part of the culture as some perceive and that message does need to get accross and the best people to do that are the leaders of those different cultures in this country

Maggy 11-05-2012 15:03
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Doesn't make it a racist issue necessarily though, just one of of readily available vulnerable young girls who just 'happen' to be white..Most Asian girls are heavily chaperoned within the community and are therefore unlikely to be targeted..I'm pretty sure if they weren't that they would become targets.

Saaf_laandon_mo 11-05-2012 15:14
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35426412)
In Leicester there are a large number of Asian gangs who go looking for teenage girls to use for their own ends. Usually it doesn't matter which race or colour they are but still some target whites. Usually the gangs impress the girls by buying them gifts, driving fast cars etc and make them think they're now boyfriend/girlfriend. They keep up the pretence until they've won their trust and then the trouble starts.

The gangs then pimp the girls out to others and threaten them with violence against them and their families if they refuse.

Obviously not all Pakistanis are like that and neither are all Pakistani gang members. But it happens a lot. She is part of the Asian community and is privacy to what is talked about, what goes on. She has even been warned about it from her own family when she was growing up.
The bit hilighted in Bold is the point isn't it. That there are a large number or gangs targeting vunerable girls. Leicester has a significant amount of asians right (I think the majority now are asian) so it's obvious you will find asian men doing this. What is interesting about Leicester is that the majority of asians from Leicester happen to be from Africa and India, and there is a large representation here from all religions, Sikhs, Muslim and Hindus - I would also bet that Pakistanis make up the smallest subset within that ethnioc group. So again, unless we know they are specifically Pakistani again it sort of blows out the cultural argument out of the water.

If the gang in Rochdale were in an area rife with vunerable Pakistani girls, do not for one minute think they would have left them alone.

TAke out the word asian in your post above and that applies to all people who pimp out girls/run child prostitution rings.

No one, especially me, is disputing that Pakistani men do not do it. Unfortunately evil is not confined to one race or colour, but the reporting, views and opinions of late are that this is a massive problem in the Pakistani muslim community and because the victims were all white, its all ok.

---------- Post added at 14:14 ---------- Previous post was at 14:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35426420)
Doesn't make it a racist issue necessarily though, just one of of readily available vulnerable young girls who just 'happen' to be white..Most Asian girls are heavily chaperoned within the community and are therefore unlikely to be targeted..I'm pretty sure if they weren't that they would become targets.
Exactly. They would have found it extremely difficult to target asian girls because of those reasons. That is not saying that it doesn't happen to asian girls either. There are quite a few who end up in prostitution having been exploited as a result of their broken backgrounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426418)
They shouldn't have to ,but they may need to .It is in the best interests of all to dispel the myth that this sort of thing is inherent in some Asian cultures.I may be wrong but i don't know one culture that allows this sort of behaviour,they have their sex offenders and pedophiles the same as all others and how they treat them differs but child sex is not part of the culture as some perceive and that message does need to get accross and the best people to do that are the leaders of those different cultures in this country
The myth that has sprung about in the last week? I've never heard previous to this case that British (or non British) Pakistani Muslims culturally think its ok to groom white girls for prostitution? Or to be pimps. If these men had been caught doing this "back home" not one would have made it to trial. They would have been hanged by their communities.

Russ 11-05-2012 15:23
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
As my OH was growing up she was not warned about gangs of white youths looking for girls. She was specifically told about Pakistani gangs. Even to this day she warns her eldest daughter about them.

Maggy 11-05-2012 15:26
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35426431)
As my OH was growing up she was not warned about gangs of white youths looking for girls. She was specifically told about Pakistani gangs. Even to this day she warns her eldest daughter about them.
So this points to it not being a racist issue surely?:confused:

TheDaddy 11-05-2012 15:37
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35426425)
The bit hilighted in Bold is the point isn't it. That there are a large number or gangs targeting vunerable girls. Leicester has a significant amount of asians right (I think the majority now are asian) so it's obvious you will find asian men doing this. What is interesting about Leicester is that the majority of asians from Leicester happen to be from Africa and India, and there is a large representation here from all religions, Sikhs, Muslim and Hindus - I would also bet that Pakistanis make up the smallest subset within that ethnioc group. So again, unless we know they are specifically Pakistani again it sort of blows out the cultural argument out of the water.

If the gang in Rochdale were in an area rife with vunerable Pakistani girls, do not for one minute think they would have left them alone.

TAke out the word asian in your post above and that applies to all people who pimp out girls/run child prostitution rings.

No one, especially me, is disputing that Pakistani men do not do it. Unfortunately evil is not confined to one race or colour, but the reporting, views and opinions of late are that this is a massive problem in the Pakistani muslim community and because the victims were all white, its all ok.

---------- Post added at 14:14 ---------- Previous post was at 14:09 ----------



Exactly. They would have found it extremely difficult to target asian girls because of those reasons. That is not saying that it doesn't happen to asian girls either. There are quite a few who end up in prostitution having been exploited as a result of their broken backgrounds.



The myth that has sprung about in the last week? I've never heard previous to this case that British (or non British) Pakistani Muslims culturally think its ok to groom white girls for prostitution? Or to be pimps. If these men had been caught doing this "back home" not one would have made it to trial. They would have been hanged by their communities.
I've heard that myth many times before over the years and don't you need four witnesses to back up your tape claim of you're a girl out there



http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/4479/why-the-deafening-silence-after-rape/

Saaf_laandon_mo 11-05-2012 15:39
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35426432)
So this points to it not being a racist issue surely?:confused:
Thank you for making the point.

I think Russ might be concluding because his OH was specifically warned about Pakistani gangs, and not white ones, it was only asian guys that did this -although his post does suggest that they were after asian girls too (otherwise the OH's mum would not have warned her).

Anyway, there is a secondary issue here that there has to be something done to protect young girls (and boys) from this. That in itself is an issue that needs to be sorted out to prevent them falling into the clutches of evil men (and women) like this.

martyh 11-05-2012 15:56
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35426425)
The myth that has sprung about in the last week? I've never heard previous to this case that British (or non British) Pakistani Muslims culturally think its ok to groom white girls for prostitution? Or to be pimps. If these men had been caught doing this "back home" not one would have made it to trial. They would have been hanged by their communities.
No offence but that's a sheltered life you have led .You wouldn't believe some of the crap i have heard over the years and much of it is supposed to be allowed in the Quran ,the favourite one at the moment to explain why these men did what they did is men may enjoy what your right hands own.It is a common belief amongst far right groups that Indians ,Pakistanis,Africans etc all "enjoy" their children as a matter of course.It's that type of thinking that needs to be addressed ,how that will be achieved especially when those in need of the education are pretty much un educateable is beyond me

---------- Post added at 14:56 ---------- Previous post was at 14:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35426437)
Thank you for making the point.

I think Russ might be concluding because his OH was specifically warned about Pakistani gangs, and not white ones, it was only asian guys that did this -although his post does suggest that they were after asian girls too (otherwise the OH's mum would not have warned her).

Anyway, there is a secondary issue here that there has to be something done to protect young girls (and boys) from this. That in itself is an issue that needs to be sorted out to prevent them falling into the clutches of evil men (and women) like this.
Maybe the problem is the Asian gangs perception of us and how we treat our young children by allowing them to hang out at kebab shops drinking .Maybe they don't care because they percieve us as not caring .It's all well and good getting all uptight and indignant about gangs of any sort picking up under age girls and boys but if us adults looked after them a bit better then they wouldn't be in that position in the first place

Saaf_laandon_mo 11-05-2012 16:12
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426440)
No offence but that's a sheltered life you have led .You wouldn't believe some of the crap i have heard over the years and much of it is supposed to be allowed in the Quran ,the favourite one at the moment to explain why these men did what they did is men may enjoy what your right hands own.It is a common belief amongst far right groups that Indians ,Pakistanis,Africans etc all "enjoy" their children as a matter of course.It's that type of thinking that needs to be addressed ,how that will be achieved especially when those in need of the education are pretty much un educateable is beyond me
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426440)
No offence but that's a sheltered life you have led .
Sorry ? Sheltered Life? On what basis do you make that conclusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426440)
You wouldn't believe some of the crap i have heard over the years and much of it is supposed to be allowed in the Quran,the favourite one at the moment to explain why these men did what they did is men may enjoy what your right hands own.
I've heard a lot of crap to about what is supposedly written in tjhe Quran. Not saying you havent, but when this has been the case for me, I've actually researched it further.

CAn you tell me what you think that statement means?

Islam teaches you to enjoy things that you have acquired legitamately and what is Halaal (permissable). Acquiring anything aquired in an illegal manner is forbidden (Haraam). You cannot enjoy anything you have acquired illegally/immorally - I think the implication here is that these guys thought they owned the girls?

Do you really think any of the guys convicted in this case were devout or even practising muslims? Do you think they were influenced by their religion.

I challenge you to find anywhere in the Quran, you don't even have to interpret it - just cut and paste any verse from an english translation, where you can reach any form of conclusion that it is ok to groom and rape kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426440)
.It is a common belief amongst far right groups that Indians ,Pakistanis,Africans etc all "enjoy" their children as a matter of course.
You know what, I am not talking about right wing groups. I am talking about the general media, and views from people who I would not consider as being right winged that are promoting a view that this is a race issue, and specific to one culture.

One danger in this is that you ignore the victims, you could be building a seanario where people think it only happens in this culture or that one, and by sticking to one which they feel is safe, might not be the best outcome.

I have not, in any of my posts above, said that it doesnt happen in the British PAkistani Muslim culture. What I am saying is that the manner of the reporting in this case, and subsequent views, has been totally different as to if it had been an English WHite gang commiting the crimes.

---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 15:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426440)
Maybe the problem is the Asian gangs perception of us and how we treat our young children by allowing them to hang out at kebab shops drinking .Maybe they don't care because they percieve us as not caring .It's all well and good getting all uptight and indignant about gangs of any sort picking up under age girls and boys but if us adults looked after them a bit better then they wouldn't be in that position in the first place
Again you could say that about anyone exploiting young children. The way I look at it, evil people pick on the most vunerable in society.

You have hit the nail on the head. We need to do something that stops kids getting in that position - the one in which they are exploitted in the first place.

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35426436)
I don't think that the issue of rapists not being convicted, aqs well as the question "when is rape not rape" is exclusive to Pakistan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/ju...igrationpolicy

martyh 11-05-2012 16:43
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35426447)
Sorry ? Sheltered Life? On what basis do you make that conclusion?
You're the one who said he had never heard of the myths :shrug:


Quote:
I've heard a lot of crap to about what is supposedly written in tjhe Quran. Not saying you havent, but when this has been the case for me, I've actually researched it further.

CAn you tell me what you think that statement means?
What statement? :confused:

Quote:
Do you really think any of the guys convicted in this case were devout or even practising muslims? Do you think they were influenced by their religion.
could be,i don't know ,don't forget one of them was a religious teacher

Quote:
I challenge you to find anywhere in the Quran, you don't even have to interpret it - just cut and paste any verse from an english translation, where you can reach any form of conclusion that it is ok to groom and rape kids
HEY ,i didn't say there was anything in the Quran that ok'd child rape .I said some people interpret it that way

Quote:
You know what, I am not talking about right wing groups. I am talking about the general media, and views from people who I would not consider as being right winged that are promoting a view that this is a race issue, and specific to one culture.
The general media only print what others say and what will make them money ,it is the far right groups such as EDL and BNP that instigate such views in the first place and you must remember that the BNP is a legitimate political party whose views are widely accwpted by a lot of people so maybe you should be considering their part in this

Quote:
I have not, in any of my posts above, said that it doesnt happen in the British PAkistani Muslim culture. What I am saying is that the manner of the reporting in this case, and subsequent views, has been totally different as to if it had been an English WHite gang commiting the crimes
and that is because far right groups latched on and the media saw an opportunity to sell some papers based on the views of those far right groups ,views like ,it is ok to rape kids because the quran says we can .

Saaf_laandon_mo 11-05-2012 16:55
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426462)
You're the one who said he had never heard of the myths :shrug:
THis is the first time that I can recall in mainstream media (radio talk shows, 'normal' people expressing their views) that gild grooming and rape is a common problem in this community. I am not referring to myths within the far right.


[QUOTE=martyh;35426462]

What statement? :confused:


This one -
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426462)

You wouldn't believe some of the crap i have heard over the years and much of it is supposed to be allowed in the Quran ,the favourite one at the moment to explain why these men did what they did is men may enjoy what your right hands own.
Because one of them was a "religious teacher" does not mean he understood what he was teaching or the religion he was teaching should be labelled as promoting these acts.. There have been religious leaders in ALL religions who have abused their power/position.

We could go around and around spending hours discussiing religion - so I really don't want to go down that route. The point I am trying to make is that there has been a huge slant on the religion and the community, and an emphasis on this being a racist crime, somehow justified by religion and culture. And I do not think that is the case or how it should be reported/portrayed.

TheDaddy 11-05-2012 16:59
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35426447)

I don't think that the issue of rapists not being convicted, aqs well as the question "when is rape not rape" is exclusive to Pakistan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/ju...igrationpolicy
I thought you said it was a myth that there was a problem with rape in Pakistan, the figures are there, one rape every two hours and a gang rape every eight hours, perhaps that's what Marty means by sheltered life.

Saaf_laandon_mo 11-05-2012 17:23
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35426465)
I thought you said it was a myth that there was a problem with rape in Pakistan, the figures are there, one rape every two hours and a gang rape every eight hours, perhaps that's what Marty means by sheltered life.
I was refering to the myths that rape and grooming of young girls is rife and prevalent amongst british pakistani muslims (I thought this is what we were talking about).

I have never disputed that rape does not happen in the pakistan cultures - I am arguing that this case and associated cviews comes across as its down to their culture that these guys committed the crimes, that there is a racist element involved because only white girls were targetted, and that religion influenced there way of thinking.

You produced a link about rape and its effects in PAkistan, I produced one closer to home.

On the point of only white girls being targetted - it might be that only white girls reported the rape. There could have been pakistani girls raped too, but they might not have come foward. There might have also been other girls raped but they might never have come forward.

martyh 11-05-2012 17:26
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
[QUOTE=Saaf_laandon_mo;35426463]THis is the first time that I can recall in mainstream media (radio talk shows, 'normal' people expressing their views) that gild grooming and rape is a common problem in this community. I am not referring to myths within the far right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426462)

What statement? :confused:


This one - Originally Posted by martyh http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/im...s/viewpost.gif

You wouldn't believe some of the crap i have heard over the years and much of it is supposed to be allowed in the Quran ,the favourite one at the moment to explain why these men did what they did is men may enjoy what your right hands own.

.
Thought it was self evident myself ,but since you ask ,
that and similar is some of the crap being spouted and has been for as long as i can remember about muslim culture ,and like i said if you have never heard similar crap in peoples endeavours to interpret the Quran then you have led a sheltered life , which isn't a bad thing so no offence meant

Maggy 11-05-2012 17:29
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
saaf_laandon_mo am I right in thinking you are a Muslim?

Saaf_laandon_mo 11-05-2012 17:56
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35426475)
saaf_laandon_mo am I right in thinking you are a Muslim?
Yes I am Muslim, but not Pakistani. Born in southern Africa to parents from India.

I do have a lot of experience of Islam, the muslim culture, the PAkistani and Indian subcontinent culture (my wife is Pakistani), through a lot of the voluntary work I do and the people and groups I speak to.

I also work and get involved with young Muslims in the UK and have a lot of first hand knowledge and experience of the issues that are faced by them today.

---------- Post added at 16:56 ---------- Previous post was at 16:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426474)
Thought it was self evident myself ,but since you ask ,
that and similar is some of the crap being spouted and has been for as long as i can remember about muslim culture ,and like i said if you have never heard similar crap in peoples endeavours to interpret the Quran then you have led a sheltered life , which isn't a bad thing so no offence meant
Like I explained in another post - I was referring to the myth speciafially about grooming - I thought that was what we were talking about.

I have heard all the other myths - but I was trying to keep oin topic :)

RizzyKing 11-05-2012 18:49
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Just to clear up something i am convinced race was an issue in this incident and the fact that the men themselves said it was also enforces that and i am completely bewildered as to why all of a sudden them saying race was a part of it is irrelevent seriously if what they said on that is irrelevent what the hell is relevent from them. That said the crime itself is disgusting, unjustifiable and out and out wrong and the emphasis here should be on helping the victims 100%. But we cannot ignore an aspect because it may cause wider problems or because we don't want to hear it we have to face it head on and make damn sure that anyone who MIGHT hold a cultural view on this that it is wrong and not acceptable in the UK.

We as a country have had our heads in the sand for too long on race in the UK and it has allowed groups like the EDL and the BNP to gain support because we do not have a sensible and mature debate on the issues of race relations in the UK. Labour's open door policy allowed too many in without anytime for both sides to integrate properly it allowed in too many who bought with them the cultural views from the country they came from that are completely unaaceptable to all people in the UK. We have to have this discussion and both sides are going to have to accept some unpleasant truths because if we don't we will continue to see the rise of neanderthal's and their twisted ignorant bigotry.

I could relate many eyewitness things i have personally seen in leicester over the last twenty years to give a skewed perception of a community and the reason i do not is because i do not believe it is endemic to that culture and are not representative of all within that community. We can carry on as we are or we can start to address this and defuse the issue i would prefer to tackle it head on now and remove the ammunition of certain groups and maybe get race relations where we would all prefer them because i would rather not be living in a society where it has become two groups and your either with one or against it and that is where we will get too at some point if we do not start to deal with this.

martyh 11-05-2012 19:01
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35426511)
Just to clear up something i am convinced race was an issue in this incident and the fact that the men themselves said it was also enforces that and i am completely bewildered as to why all of a sudden them saying race was a part of it is irrelevent seriously if what they said on that is irrelevent what the hell is relevent from them. That said the crime itself is disgusting, unjustifiable and out and out wrong and the emphasis here should be on helping the victims 100%. But we cannot ignore an aspect because it may cause wider problems or because we don't want to hear it we have to face it head on and make damn sure that anyone who MIGHT hold a cultural view on this that it is wrong and not acceptable in the UK.

We as a country have had our heads in the sand for too long on race in the UK and it has allowed groups like the EDL and the BNP to gain support because we do not have a sensible and mature debate on the issues of race relations in the UK. Labour's open door policy allowed too many in without anytime for both sides to integrate properly it allowed in too many who bought with them the cultural views from the country they came from that are completely unaaceptable to all people in the UK. We have to have this discussion and both sides are going to have to accept some unpleasant truths because if we don't we will continue to see the rise of neanderthal's and their twisted ignorant bigotry.

I could relate many eyewitness things i have personally seen in leicester over the last twenty years to give a skewed perception of a community and the reason i do not is because i do not believe it is endemic to that culture and are not representative of all within that community. We can carry on as we are or we can start to address this and defuse the issue i would prefer to tackle it head on now and remove the ammunition of certain groups and maybe get race relations where we would all prefer them because i would rather not be living in a society where it has become two groups and your either with one or against it and that is where we will get too at some point if we do not start to deal with this.
Some would say we are already there Rizzy .

Good post by the way

Jimmy-J 11-05-2012 19:03
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Did anyone see last nights Question Time? I watched in anger as Peter Oborne and an audience member put most of the blame on the victims / parents / BNP, anyone but the paedophile rapists.

Forward to the 11 minute mark to watch.

Maggy 11-05-2012 19:14
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35426511)
Just to clear up something i am convinced race was an issue in this incident and the fact that the men themselves said it was also enforces that and i am completely bewildered as to why all of a sudden them saying race was a part of it is irrelevent seriously if what they said on that is irrelevent what the hell is relevent from them. That said the crime itself is disgusting, unjustifiable and out and out wrong and the emphasis here should be on helping the victims 100%. But we cannot ignore an aspect because it may cause wider problems or because we don't want to hear it we have to face it head on and make damn sure that anyone who MIGHT hold a cultural view on this that it is wrong and not acceptable in the UK.

We as a country have had our heads in the sand for too long on race in the UK and it has allowed groups like the EDL and the BNP to gain support because we do not have a sensible and mature debate on the issues of race relations in the UK. Labour's open door policy allowed too many in without anytime for both sides to integrate properly it allowed in too many who bought with them the cultural views from the country they came from that are completely unaaceptable to all people in the UK. We have to have this discussion and both sides are going to have to accept some unpleasant truths because if we don't we will continue to see the rise of neanderthal's and their twisted ignorant bigotry.

I could relate many eyewitness things i have personally seen in leicester over the last twenty years to give a skewed perception of a community and the reason i do not is because i do not believe it is endemic to that culture and are not representative of all within that community. We can carry on as we are or we can start to address this and defuse the issue i would prefer to tackle it head on now and remove the ammunition of certain groups and maybe get race relations where we would all prefer them because i would rather not be living in a society where it has become two groups and your either with one or against it and that is where we will get too at some point if we do not start to deal with this.
Seems to me that by saying it's racial detracts from the crime.It also seems to make an offence that allegedly racial in nature worse than if it is just a run of the mill murder/rape/mugging..It's as if it has a deeper degree of offence because of the racial element.There really shouldn't be any degree of difference.

RizzyKing 11-05-2012 19:14
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Yes i did watch it and like you got quite angry at the attitude of some on the program.

Maggy 11-05-2012 19:17
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Come on don't you know that it's always the victims fault.:(

RizzyKing 11-05-2012 20:01
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
To some in our society it is and always will be easier to put the blame at the feet of the victim because they are too lazy\gutless to accept and tackle a problem. Personally it shouldn't matter if women\girls wanted to walk down the street naked they should be able to do so without unwanted and unwarranted sexual harassment and assault although i will admit they would attract some attention in that extreme situation. These girls were broken in whatever way and it is the duty and responsibility of adults to help not abuse that and these despicable examples of humanity chose to abuse personally there is no jail term sufficient for that.

martyh 11-05-2012 20:36
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35426517)
Seems to me that by saying it's racial detracts from the crime.It also seems to make an offence that allegedly racial in nature worse than if it is just a run of the mill murder/rape/mugging..It's as if it has a deeper degree of offence because of the racial element.There really shouldn't be any degree of difference.

I see what you are saying Maggie and i do agree ,there are not different levels of rape .I don't think that racial motivation (if that was the case in this instance)should be ignored though ,it shouldn't be counted in sentencing but should be dealt with as a separate issue in criminal cases .Using this case as an example wouldn't it have been better to try the cases as rape cases, sentence and then have a separate trial for the race issue to either prove or disprove ,and then sentence accordingly ,that way at least the rape isn't muddied and forgotten about

---------- Post added at 19:36 ---------- Previous post was at 19:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy-J (Post 35426514)
Did anyone see last nights Question Time? I watched in anger as Peter Oborne and an audience member put most of the blame on the victims / parents / BNP, anyone but the paedophile rapists.

Forward to the 11 minute mark to watch.
Just watched the portion dealing with this case ,thanks for the link ,but it does seem that a few people have their heads buried in the sand .

I think it unfair to say that Peter Oborne and the vicar where blaming the victims .They are merely questioning how young girls manage to get tempted into situations like this ,and quite frankly they are right to question it because i have seen young girls in Newcastle town center on friday and saturday nights and have wondered what their parents are thinking ,and the fact that some of these girls where in council care at the time just raises more questions about our care system ,and for Caroline Spellman to suggest that the social services or parents would be acting "inhumane"(time 29.30) in stopping young girls going out late at night is a taster of the problem Yes it was a horrendous thing that these men did but there are wider issues in society to look at as well and must not be buried

Saaf_laandon_mo 11-05-2012 23:28
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35426547)
I think it unfair to say that Peter Oborne and the vicar where blaming the victims .They are merely questioning how young girls manage to get tempted into situations like this ,and quite frankly they are right to question it because i have seen young girls in Newcastle town center on friday and saturday nights and have wondered what their parents are thinking ,and the fact that some of these girls where in council care at the time just raises more questions about our care system ,and for Caroline Spellman to suggest that the social services or parents would be acting "inhumane"(time 29.30) in stopping young girls going out late at night is a taster of the problem Yes it was a horrendous thing that these men did but there are wider issues in society to look at as well and must not be buried
There has to be a strong focus on this. We need to ensure that our children are not continuously placed in positions where they are vunerable to abuse. There is a massive social challenge to undertake, we need to invest in a level of education, as well as a process that imporves the care, and self esteem of vunerable children.

Jimmy-J 12-05-2012 09:07
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Police who smashed the Rochdale child
sex ring believe they have uncovered a
SECOND grooming scandal in the town.
The M.E.N. can today reveal that several
men have been arrested on suspicion of
sexually abusing the same girl.
The alleged abuse is believed to have
taken place over a six-year period when
the girl was in her teens.
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereven...ng-in-rochdale

Maggy 12-05-2012 12:35
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 35426601)
There has to be a strong focus on this. We need to ensure that our children are not continuously placed in positions where they are vunerable to abuse. There is a massive social challenge to undertake, we need to invest in a level of education, as well as a process that imporves the care, and self esteem of vunerable children.
Sadly with cutbacks in the public sector I suspect that these cases are only going to increase. :(

Tezcatlipoca 13-05-2012 15:20
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
"Foreign paedos taking work from White British paedos, claim EDL and BNP"

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewsThump
Far right organisations such as the British National party and the English Defence League (EDL) have used the recent conviction of nine men of Pakistani heritage to highlight that hard-working British paedophiles are struggling to compete.

The BNP have warned that British paedophiles are in danger of ending up on the scrapheap unless something is done.

“When you’ve got foreign paedos coming over here and grooming our kids it becomes harder for our own paedos to compete,” insisted a BNP spokesracist.

“The case in Rochdale clearly shows that all foreigners that come to this country are paedophiles.”

“How are UK nonces supposed to cope with that sort of competition?”

(snip)

TheDaddy 13-05-2012 22:10
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Trevor Phillips seems to think race was relevant in this case

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-relevant.html

martyh 13-05-2012 22:23
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35427489)
Trevor Phillips seems to think race was relevant in this case

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-relevant.html

speaks a lot of sense imo.It's strange how it's only the white officials,i.e government/judge/police etc who are saying it's not a racist issue when everyone else including the defendants are saying it is

Hugh 13-05-2012 22:38
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Except the defendants are saying it is being racist against them because they are Pakistani, whilst others are saying the defendants are being racist by preying on white girls - different things....

martyh 13-05-2012 22:44
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35427503)
Except the defendants are saying it is being racist against them because they are Pakistani, whilst others are saying the defendants are being racist by preying on white girls - different things....
some of the defendants told the police on arrest that it was racially motivated ,the judge in court mentioned it on sentencing but said it wasn't so dismissed it

Maggy 13-05-2012 22:46
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
"If anybody in any of the agencies that are supposed to be caring for these children - schools, social services and so on - took the view that being aggressively interventionalist to save these children would lead to the demonisation of some group because of the ethnicity ... then it is a national scandal and something that would need to be dealt with urgently," he said.
And where did the authorities get this idea from.Possibly from past experiences in dealing with the Commission for Equality and Human Rights?From those who are quick to shout the racist issue at the drop of a hat?
Perhaps more clarity is needed and better direction from the Commission might be more helpful.
Maybe less concentration on race might be the answer so we arrive at a situation where the crime and the victims are seen not the colour of their skin and their ethnic grouping/religion.

These girls were picked on because they were available and vulnerable.Focusing on the colour of their skin makes the crime no more and no less heinous.

martyh 13-05-2012 22:54
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35427507)
.Focusing on the colour of their skin makes the crime no more and no less heinous.
Yes we know ,but if there is a underlying racist issue then that needs to be addressed .What if some of the Asian community like the wifes,friends of the defendants knew this was happened but turned a blind eye because "they are only white girls and dress provocatively so deserve it",do you realy think that should be ignored or treated any less seriously

Maggy 13-05-2012 23:06
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35427512)
Yes we know ,but if there is a underlying racist issue then that needs to be addressed .What if some of the Asian community like the wifes,friends of the defendants knew this was happened but turned a blind eye because "they are only white girls and dress provocatively so deserve it",do you realy think that should be ignored or treated any less seriously
So tell me this.Why is a racially motivated crime deemed MORE important than say white on white crime?Or black on black? Or Asian on Asian?

martyh 13-05-2012 23:11
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35427521)
So tell me this.Why is a racially motivated crime deemed MORE important than say white on white crime?Or black on black? Or Asian on Asian?
It's the same as beating someone to pulp because they are ginger or fat ,It's the idea that they are a lower form of life because they are Asian/white/black or whatever ,and i must say i am very surprised you have to ask that question

Maggy 14-05-2012 09:02
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35427526)
It's the same as beating someone to pulp because they are ginger or fat ,It's the idea that they are a lower form of life because they are Asian/white/black or whatever ,and i must say i am very surprised you have to ask that question
It may be the same as those two examples but why does it make it more important or more serious than the white on white crime.I'm becoming worried that we may end up with a two tiered system of dealing with crimes like murder if we start to let this sort of differentiating creep into our thinking.
Agreed we mustn't let the authorities treat the public in a racially discriminatory manner and push such crimes to the bottom of the pile but neither should racially motivated crimes be deemed of more importance either.

Osem 18-05-2012 23:16
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
A "small minority" of Pakistani men see white girls as "fair game", Baroness Warsi has said.

It is important to "speak out" and acknowledge the problem in order to tackle it, she added.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18117529

Someone else saying what the police don't feel able to.

Derek 19-05-2012 13:21
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35430034)
Someone else saying what the police don't feel able to.
It's amazing how the ACPO definition of a racist incident is being completely ignored in this case by almost every senior officer.

If I was the cynical type I might suggest that they are only happy with the definition and the baggage that goes with it when it suits them and their next promotion. :rolleyes:

martyh 19-05-2012 17:41
Re: Child grooming gang found guilty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek (Post 35430189)
It's amazing how the ACPO definition of a racist incident is being completely ignored in this case by almost every senior officer.

If I was the cynical type I might suggest that they are only happy with the definition and the baggage that goes with it when it suits them and their next promotion. :rolleyes:
For the police hierarchy and government to admit this was a racial problem would be to admit that their policies on immigration and racial integration are not working


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