Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I am not joking, but I am not insane, but a political agument fires up up, I don't want communism, facism or other forms of extraremism, but something better than what we have now

So, you do need to worry :D

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Do you mind not slating my job:D

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I will repeat this Alan, because you are still sending PM's:


---------- Post added at 17:10 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to offend.

Anyway you will have loads of extra workers to take the burden off you if Alan gets his way ;)

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Well can you and your friends stop defending a failed system them

I am doing this because of you attemps to ignore me

if you want to end this do it via the agurment

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

It is our right to ignore you and while your at it stop PMing me as well ,the next one will be reported

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

why on earth do you want to stop PMing me and want to report me, i would not do the same to you and your friends

You are not going to end this, by ignoring me

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I'm serious Alan, get help now!!!!!

Now where is that button?

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

You could just say that everyone Die's, or gets killed before the pension age and that would stop all of this?:erm:

Sorry :(

---------- Post added at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:19 ----------

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

yes i can .......this is me pressing the ignore button......'click'

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I am not the one who needs help round here, but you and your friends might

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Thanks for that!!!!

Hey it works, it's gone really quiet in here :sleeping:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

you have jost the agument, honestly, you just cannot defend a failed system!

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I know it's brill :D

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I need help :erm:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Well maybe it's the rest of the world that needs help, and it's only Alan who is sane ;)

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I have never been sane:erm:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Neither can you - being a part of it and all.

Also you may wish to consider that merely disagreeing with you isn't the same as defending something.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Well said.:clap:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

That is not nice applauding well sad, Whoops you said well said (I will get my coat)

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Yes, buy you very much disagree with what is neede to fix the system

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

While I do think you should be entitled to your opinions I must admit I find it hard to pay much heed to them when elsewhere you advocate murder and violence as solutions to some of your problems / opinions.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Well that's 'democracy' for you...... :rolleyes:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I advocate those actions to achive the requried radical changes needed to democracy and capitlaism becuase it would be very hard to achive this thorugh democractic/non-violence means for the same reasons why the poltical system needs radical reform

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

That's probably why Presidents get assassinated.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Political reform under threat of being murdered or associated with violence is going to win people over?

I'm sure that has been tried before.

With luck you'll get caught and stopped before you manage to achieve any of this kind of thing... If you really believe in it and are attempting it that is and not just trying to /shock/ people.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

All I am doing is calling on people to campain for radical reform to capitalism and democracy, other people that agree on Twitter, might do this in a dmeocratic/non-violent/violent/un-democratic way, but will have to wait and see how it is done.

I hope humans have sense and accept the need to radical reform to democracy and capitalism (in a democratic and non-violent manner), but I do not hold high hopes.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Otherwise you may have to resort to the methods you have mentioned in other media, eh?

Do what I want, or else....

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

It is not what I want, but what is needed, I am only suggesting what is needed, how it is achived, well we will have to wait and see

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I always wonder why the Queen doesn't step in. but then I realise that she's not like the old Queens. they're just there as an ornament now.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Sounds suspiciously dictatorial doesn't it. Not exactly the sort of stuff that comes from a sound mind capable of reasoned argument and willing to take on board the views of others.... :confused: :rolleyes:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Wasn't that Stalin....a mad communist dictator??? :D

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Not sure if he was mad - megalomaniac, perhaps, but not clinically insane...

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

The only people who would make rubbish claims, not willing to take board the views of others and has unsound minds capable of unreasoned argument are people defending and promoting a failed political, social and economic system

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:20 ----------

Yet again you are making rubbish claims comparing me to Stalin

I do not advocate taking farms from people and doing deals with Nazis for example

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

This thread has turned almost surreal.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I don't know about you, but I would regard a megalomaniac, who has 1000's of people killed, as pretty much mad!!

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Another term is "Head of State".....

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Yeah, well how many of those are what you would call stable? Although most don't have 1000's killed just down to their own paranoia...well not openly anyway.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

'State of head' might be more appropriate for some folks around here.... :D

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

The only people that are mad are people who defend and promote a failed economic, social and poltical system

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

who woke the troll up ? come on now own up :nono::bsmack:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I did, so give up defending and promoting a failed system

The only Trolls on CF are defenders and promoters of a failed poltical, social and economic system

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

So, basically, everyone except you.....

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Not eveyone, but quite a lot of CF users

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Things were all supposed to be finalised by the 8th of March in order to bring in the first increase in contributions on the 1st April. However it all seems to have gone quiet. I spoke to the FBU on the 8th, and they said that it had gone to the Ombudsman, and they were waiting to hear back.

It all seems to have gone quiet. Does anyone know what is going on?

I presume that it won't come in on the 1st April now.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I wouldn't think like that if I was you, that Queen has more say than what you think, it just doesn't get broadcasted, everything that prime ministers suggest or plan is most likely run through the queen first.

When they say the Queen is just a figure, I don't entirely believe that, I think the use of Prime ministers and some use of political parties is a front to say the UK is a democratic country and that the citizens have a say on who is running the country.

There is a lot of things that governments hide or adopt to control people, simple things like adding Sodium Fluoride to water, the type of Fluoride being used is not natural, its toxic waste sold to the water industry from other industries enforced by the government. It is common knowledge that it can help reduce dental problems, but it can also cause health problems as well control people making them more dosile,submissive and abiding and you notice, it is only added to areas in the UK where anti-social behaviour is higher than other parts. Like I said it can cause health problems such as bone diseases, cutting years off peoples lives and that can work wonders to decrease an increasing population of 'elderly'/over 65's.

People say that it's just a bit of fluoride at low levels, but toothpaste,tea and medications such as anti-depressants all contain it, meaning it is a cocktail of Fluoride.

The next thing is National Insurance, you pay it for the government to look after you when you become unemployed or for use for Pension Credit, the government seems very reluctant to letting you see that money again when you most need, they will keep putting up the retirement age up and up so by the time you will be at pension age, you will be dead!

And then there is Tobacco,alcohol and recreational drugs. They are widely available yet so bad for your health, why don't they just ban them if they are so bad for you? They won't because it is a good tax subsidise as well as a easy way for them to control you and decrease a population, that is why support for Alcohol dependency is poor, you have to pay good money for Alcohol dependency support, most of the people who do have a problem are a minority of people who do not work,have no potential for the governments taxation system and people with chronic health problems, easy way for the government to get shut of its problems. As for recreational drugs don't think for one minute they don't have any help from insiders from the government to help bring that rubbish in to the country, again the current legislation on recreational drugs is a mess, but then again it has not been set up to stop people really.

But people have to face it that the country is not in a mess like you think it is, it is done deliberately to rid the country of certain individuals. So you just have to be strong, save money,avoid taxes(legally via loopholes),don't drink and don't smoke :D

Some people reading will think i'm being extremely paranoid or mad, but I thought the same once, but the more you think about it, makes more sense and you will understand what i'm trying to get at.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Nick Herbert. What an utter, utter, utter tool.

He's on BBC News right now telling people who are getting shafted by pension contribution increases that it's 'futile' if they protest and the government is going to press ahead with the changes.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Yes I saw him, the man has as absolutely nothing about him, he was trying to appear hard shame his facade crumbled under the Gestapo like grilling from BBC breakfast presenters, first of all there would be no more negotiations then they're still talking then the protests are a joke but when pulled up on it he fully supports their democratic rights, where do we get these people from.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

People vote for them.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

they don't, that's probably the problem, we get the politicians we deserve, can't think of a politician in this country that over fifty percent of us voted for and as Harlow showed our politicians are quite happy to call themselves legitimate, with a mandate on thirteen percent turnout.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Sorry I thought that they got voted in somewhere?

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Daddy's right,all our political woes are of our own making .We have a coalition because of voter apathy and we will keep getting idiots voted in until that changes .Even if 90% of the eligible voters don't like the party or the leaders and just spoil the papers in the next election it is still a majority statement

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

when they are voted in on the back of a thirteen percent turnout it's not you that needs to apologise, it's the very legitimacy of our democracy in question.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

To quote a very perceptive man, those that are striking should by taken out and shot in front their families, I'd happily pull the trigger.

I don't want to bank roll your pensions with my taxes.

Join the rest of the country whenever your ready, pay a little more, work a little longer. You don't deserve special treatment.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Excellent. I'll have the restrictions on my personal life back and full industrial rights please. I'd also like a reduction in the pension contributions I give up every month.

I don't particularly want a 68 year old fireman dragging a hose up the stairs to put out a fire in my flat. There is a reason the fire brigade and Police pay more into pensions so they can retire at an earlier age than others.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Why should you get a reduction? you should be paying more.

As I once demonstrated to you in another thread, I'll do the calculation again


A constables pay after 10years service is around £36,500 not including overtime or other allowances.

if we use that figure.

11% of that = £4015.

x 30 years = £120,450.

If you have 30 years service you are entitled to 2/3rd your final salary per annum which would be: £24,300 per annum.

Now if the constable joined aged 20, and retired at 50 and lived a healthy happy life to around say 80? not unreasonable.

His total pension payout would be: £730,000.

Minus his massive 11% contribution of £120,450 = tax payer liability of £609,550. approx 5x your contributions.

So don't come to me with the "hard done to" on the pension front.

I'm willing to cut the police and fire service a little slack for the reasons you point out.

But the bottom line is the taxpayer is underwriting public sector pensions and it's just not sustainable, while the rest of us rely on the stockmarket.

There needs to be reform.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Its not the fault of people like me who work in the public sector that pensions in the private sector are rubbish, perhaps people should be arguing for better private sector pensions the promoting arguments for a "race to the bottom"

Whilst people in the public and private sector are at loggerheads over pensions, our government is doing what governments do best ie divide and rule and run off laughing.

My pension when due in the public sector will be the amazing sum of £7,500 a year when i retire thats at present before the new schemes kick in, and honestly i lay awake at night wondering how i am going to spend such an amazingly large sum of money.:rolleyes:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I'm not saying that pensions in the private sector are rubbish, I have a fairly good pension plan.

But most importantly my pension is not underwritten by the treasury.

Without knowing how much you pay in, how long you have been paying in and at what age you intend to retire it's impossible to comment.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Any particular reason for ignoring employer contributions and growth of invested funds in the above?

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I am paying in around £172 a month into my public sector pension as i have bought some years at full cost as well and my pension will be as described after 32 years of contriutions or the equivelant i could take it at 60 under the present rules the NHS 1996 pension scheme but will not be able to afford to live off it until i get my state old age pension.

By the way if i did not pay into my public sector pension,when i retired the government would be paying me full housing benefit and council tax benefit as i would be on the basic state pesion,so me contributing to my public sector pension means i can now pay these myself.

You would be surprised how many do not contibute in the area of the public sector i work in,thereby they are able to claim extra government benefits on retirement,which is something i am striving not to do by paying into our pensin scheme and trying to be self sufficient in retirement.:)

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Indeed and if we did not vote for the thieving lying sods they might get the message they need to clean up there act and do the right thing.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

It doesn't suit his agenda...

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

The "employer" is the tax payer

True, funds may be invested, however the full amount is underwritten by the taxpayer, if the investments fail you don't lose out as the taxpayer would pick up the slack.

---------- Post added at 11:27 ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 ----------

See above

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

That doesn't matter one bit. People in the private sector receive employer contributions as well. To simply disregard them (and arrive at a shortfall of a factor 5 picked up by the tax payer) is disingenuous in the extreme.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Of course it matters.

The police, and most other public bodies, don't generate profits they are 100% paid for by the taxpayer.

When you pay your Council Tax, and please check..... I'm pretty sure there isn't a line item on your bill that says Virgin Media, therefore you are not funding my employers contributions to my pension.

If you subscribe to Virgin Media services, then you are....cheers. But you have a choice and your continued contribution is not guaranteed.

Not at all, that is a potential liability to the taxpayer..............that's a fact.

I agree it may be less if the police have invested well, however the way the stockmarket has performed over the past 4 years I doubt they have done that well.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Completely disingenuous. The fact of the matter is that you made a calculation showing that the hypothetical policeman has a shortfall of a factor 5 whilst disregarding the employer's contributions, when private sector workers receive employer's contributions as well. So, your number is wrong (actually it is (I suspect willfully) misleading), and it can't be compared with private sector numbers.

The point about choice is moot as well. With every product or service I buy I contribute to wages, bonuses, pensions and other benefits of employees for the companies involved.

At the end of the day, the only meaningful comparison is between pay packages as a whole, not just the selective bits that you think you can quote because they support your argument.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Your last paragraph appears to clearly demonstrate that you have not grasped the concept at all.

To simplify the concept and to put it into a Virgin Media employee's viewpoint..... if your employer was legally able to retain your contribution and retain theirs and use both for day to day expenses on a promise that you will get a good pension at the end (maybe) would you be happy if they realised that their model was deeply flawed and tried to give you three parts of not a lot. That is what the various governments over the past few decades have done and thus the problems ahead.

Quoting stock market performance over the past four years is ludicrous. Pensions are built up over a working lifetime and any performance has to be measured over that duration. Looking back is not much of an assurance in looking forward but one thing is a certainty.

That certainty is that inflation, interest rates and investment performance is dynamic. 30+ years ago when interest rates were hitting 20% nobody would have predicted today's rates but 30+ years before that nobody would have predicted 20%.

IMO people who allow their long term pension prospects to be diluted are allowing the government to respond to a short term flat line interest rates and will pay massively long after the current bunch of idiots have retired to their country mansions to enjoy the fruits of their inherited wealth no doubt bolstered by lucrative deals.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

The problem we have is one of attitude workers in a way rightly expect what most workers they have known had which was to retire at 65 and be comfortable mostly. Trouble is we are all living longer and as we live longer we need more expensive medical treatment and care and paying for this is becoming and is going to become a masiive problem in the future. We have to sort this out and there has to be a way that both sides not like but can live with. As i see it right now neither side are right on this issue you have the government that wants to do it all in one go and the unions that want to spread it out to the next generation.

That next generation is already shafted as it is in paying for the past is it really fair to lumber them with another bill because we didn't sort out a problem that was well known for a long time. Reasonable and realistic people need to start getting involved in this and the mouths on both sides need to be put to the side. Is there a solution for this both sides can live with i honestly do not know but i know at the minute no one is even looking for it just convinced they are right and digging in deep to defend. Private sector pensions are getting hammered by what is going on in the financial sector and whilst some may be ok others will not even be close to ok and that is bound to cause discontent between public and private and it is valid for that discontent to exist.

This whole argument is a catalsyt for our society at the minute everyone is fighting for themselves and not fighting for each other though some on both sides claim to be doing just that. This is a problem that will directly or indirectly affect every single member of our society and we need to be tackling it as a united society to come up with an answer not as a fragmented society as we are now.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

You have to remember that the public sector provide a public service, of which many are essential, and in many cases dangerous. And for this they are paid a lower wage than the private sector equivalent, as an average over their career.

Now before anyone starts shouting, I know that in the present economic climate many private sector wages are closer (if not lower in some cases). But when the economy is in a better state, then it is the private sector that benefits with bigger pay rises, and bonuses, etc... This is not the case in the public sector. So I bet none those who will reap the benefits when we are out of the recession will be complaining then.

Now if you want to pay 14% of your pay into a pension, then go ahead and do it, and then you will get a far better return also. But police and firefighters didn't have any choice.

---------- Post added at 19:16 ---------- Previous post was at 19:12 ----------

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

I understand the concept just fine thanks, that last paragraph was just to make a point that if the employee's and taxpayers (employers) contributions are invested on the stockmarket that they are subject to falls as well as rises.

Yes a pension fund is accumulated over time but it's ridiculous to say that falls in the stock Market over short periods don't affect the overall value of your fund.

The recent stockmarket performance has taken billions of the value of pension funds, the recent BP crisis in the gulf only lasted a few months but also reduced pension funds by millions.

I, in certain years where we have experienced a bust, have had the pleasure of paying into my fund for the year along with my employers contributions, only to see the value of the fund fall overall. In short I lost a whole years contributions, and paid my fund managers for the privilege.

So I'm not so sure you get the concept?

The difference between my pension and a policemans pension in that currently the final value of my fund is not guaranteed, whereas a policemans is, regardless of stockmarket performance, and it is guaranteed by the tax payer.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

£36,500? Lower wage? Average doesn't matter if the pension is paid on final salary...

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

is that your new favourite word?

No, I showed a liability to the tax payer, I didn't disregard the employer contributions because the employer and taxpayer are one in the same.

no it isn't, how is it wrong? The police contribution come direct from the tax payer, they don't generate their own income.

yes, and as long as you do that's great but should you stop buying a product and service then that hits their income and ability to contribute to the employee whereas you have to pay your tax no matter what so the police will always have an income. The issue then becomes when the government can't collect as much tax as they'd like because e.g. We're in a recession or the previous govt spent it all, then suddenly the cash isn't there to underwrite the pension liability.

at the end of the day, I've come to the conclusion you don't know what you're talking about or you just don't understand

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 22:24 ----------

Don't come the lower wage bull poo, public sector wages are no longer behind the private sector, many menial public sector jobs have been privatised.

just not true and too simplistic, in the last 12 years I have not had a pay rise higher than 3%, if I got one at all. Like this year zilch.

maybe not but your return is guaranteed

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

[I just love it when somebody insists they understand the concept and then clearly state that their insistence is misplaced. The unfunded public sector pensions are not and have not been invested anywhere as they have been spent on day to day running expenses for the country. There wouldn't be a problem if the public sector had a pension pot of hundreds of billions instead of IOU's which are now being portrayed as a liability on the tax payer.

Of course it is ridiculous which is perhaps why I didn't state as such. What I did state, albeit perhaps not obviously enough, was that compounding via investment is for pension purposes best considered over a working lifetime and not short term. 4 years is ten percent of what used to be the pension building lifetime of employment which is why I used the look back of 30+ years.

Investments take hits and stagnate for periods but over a working lifetime for pension funds they should average in at the lower market prices and be in a stronger position to gain when markets improve.

The biggest, longest and ongoing damage done to pension funds was by a certain Mr Brown when he withdrew tax concessions. I do not think that you have studied the performance of pension funds or why they claim to have lost ground. Your reference to stock markets is somewhat confusing as they are just one part of the mix. The pension fund that pays me has investments that range from stock markets globally with a mix of defensive, growth and income based stocks. They also have massive portfolios in property both domestic and retail plus a back drop of gilts and bonds.

Sure many of them plead poverty in the form of under-performance but careful reading of their annual reports shows that they are using the shortfall against insurance type actuarial liability commitments as opposed to actual performance. In many cases it is enshrined in law that the funds have to have certain levels of reserves and the liability for the shortfall lies with the employing company.

Are you saying that you personally paid a fund manager to lose you money?. If you have the choice of selection then perhaps you should have exercised your prerogative and moved to a fund with a decent track record. If you had no choice then maybe the company who made the choice of fund didn't make the wisest decision.

I do not know why this was posted as a line on its own. I guess it was a Freudian slip:)

[/QUOTE]

I do not know the terms of your pension agreement but assuming that it is based on stock market performance as you state then I am sorry but IMO it is a rubbish scheme. I do not think that you are right but it looks to me like all you have is a scheme where you and your employer chuck a few grand per annum into a fund with the eventual proceeds to buy an annuity. It sounds like the perfect scheme to get fleeced year on year until the real fleecing comes with the annuity. You have to be wrong!!!!!

Policemen are paid extremely well and perhaps a lot better than the headline salary. However the feed back I get from a family friend who is a detective in a Northern city makes me think that they deserve every penny.

The funding of police pensions appears odd but is a government Ponzi scheme. It looks like working police pay by deductions a contribution which goes back into police funds which is then added to from Council Tax and then again topped up from general taxation.

The deductions which look draconian and the eventual payout are part of the package for which policemen and women signed up for. It is a contractual agreement between the employer and employee and must be honoured as it is them not us or government ministers who may have to deal with a machete wielding mentally ill individual with the strength of an ox.

Your argument is derived from comparisons between your lot and a policeman's. We all have a value to whoever employs us and to me the government's politics of envy propaganda war appears to have gained ground with some when the argument point is based on envy between a rubbish private pension and a quality contractual obligation which the government wishes to renege upon. I suspect that you truly would like to see a race to the bottom. Parhaps you need the company of others?.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Where do you get £36500 from??

Yes average does matter, as they are scrapping final salary pensions, and calculating them on an average.

---------- Post added at 18:29 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

You really need to know your subject before you start spouting off :rolleyes:

To start with, taxes run the country, and pay for many of the things that you benefit from. Would you rather finance your own police force, fire and ambulance service, roads, council services, military, health service, etc, etc, etc..... and not pay taxes??? Well otherwise stop complaining that public sector employees are financed by your taxes.

I suppose you are one of those people who would be happy to not have emergency services.......until you actually need them :rolleyes:

And don't forget that public sector employees also pay taxes, just like you do. Employer contributions have to be taken into account regardless of who finances the employer.

You may not have had a pay rise of more than 3%, but that would be 3% more than the public sector have had for the last 3 years. And they are getting a pay cut this year.

---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------

I do not know the terms of your pension agreement but assuming that it is based on stock market performance as you state then I am sorry but IMO it is a rubbish scheme. I do not think that you are right but it looks to me like all you have is a scheme where you and your employer chuck a few grand per annum into a fund with the eventual proceeds to buy an annuity. It sounds like the perfect scheme to get fleeced year on year until the real fleecing comes with the annuity. You have to be wrong!!!!!

Policemen are paid extremely well and perhaps a lot better than the headline salary. However the feed back I get from a family friend who is a detective in a Northern city makes me think that they deserve every penny.

The funding of police pensions appears odd but is a government Ponzi scheme. It looks like working police pay by deductions a contribution which goes back into police funds which is then added to from Council Tax and then again topped up from general taxation.

The deductions which look draconian and the eventual payout are part of the package for which policemen and women signed up for. It is a contractual agreement between the employer and employee and must be honoured as it is them not us or government ministers who may have to deal with a machete wielding mentally ill individual with the strength of an ox.

Your argument is derived from comparisons between your lot and a policeman's. We all have a value to whoever employs us and to me the government's politics of envy propaganda war appears to have gained ground with some when the argument point is based on envy between a rubbish private pension and a quality contractual obligation which the government wishes to renege upon. I suspect that you truly would like to see a race to the bottom. Parhaps you need the company of others?.[/QUOTE]

What you have to remember, is that there are many people who are gullable enough to believe the government propoganda, that says that public sector pensions are not sustainable.:rolleyes:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

So much boollox posted here, but I today started 2 week holiday so can't be bothered trawling through the detritous to correct it, if this thread is still live after the 26th I'll pick it back up.

Ps weather in Majorca is great!

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Err some of them aren't. Doesn't mean that all of them aren't, the teachers' pension scheme for example is absolutely fine, but some of them are most definitely not sustainable.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

They would have been if they hadn't been raped by sucessive governments.

---------- Post added at 22:48 ---------- Previous post was at 22:47 ----------

Things must be really tough in the private sector then :rolleyes:

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Ridiculous generalisation suggesting that all public sector pension schemes would be fully funded if not for government intervention. Absolutely ridiculous and a completely pointless post. I was actually on your side of this discussion but if we're dealing with stupid generalisations where public sector pension means fully funded and sustainable by default it's not doing you favours. Be interested in how you reconcile that point of view with say the local government, the national civil service or the MP pension schemes?

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Things must be really tough in the private sector then :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 01:09 ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 ----------

I'm talking about public sector pensions as a whole.

Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 

Tim,

I have only just started to explore the different funding mechanisms used in various pension schemes and the first thing that has become evident is that there are many variations on a theme which trend from not good to awful.

I gave an example of the Police whereby it appears that serving officers buy nothing with their deductions beyond the right to draw down when their time comes. There is something very wrong with a scheme where deductions recirculate back into the day to day pool from which all expenses, including payment of pensions for retired officers are paid. The fact that the shortfall is met from council tax and general taxation is bad but that is the hand to mouth system going wrong big time.

I have not looked into other schemes within the public sector but if they haven't got huge pension funds of billions sitting in investments then the likelihood then they are probably of the Ponzi variety and not easily sustainable.

My pension payment and those of my employer were paid into a managed fund and accrued by virtue of payments and investment compounding. Although it places some strain on my prior employer the scheme would fall IMO into the sustainable variety.

Wherever the blame is allocated for this total mess there is no doubt that successive governments over many decades have chosen to ignore the end game.

Whether we have or are approaching the point of un-sustainability is debatable but we have a government that appears determined to act as though we have. My viewpoint on their actions is that they have an agenda which in many regards will not bear fruit for years beyond their remit, does not address the failing agenda for which they were elected (?) and is designed to take a wrecking ball to many of the entrenched socialist structures within the UK. BTW I am not a socialist but have a strong social conscience which used to be the British way irrespective of right or left governments.