Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

REMPLOY in Wales does that, and has done since WW2 I think, but disabled groups want them shut down due to discrimination!

http://www.remploy.co.uk/about-us.ashx

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

yep read an old article it was to support more into disabled work but not sure if they would support that point today. As not sure it will create more help at all she said at the time instead 70,000 in work more 100,000 could be helped was never sure that it would work or the numbers.

Radar was the charity not sure if Liz Sayce agree with her original comments.

Personally I felt she was wrong at the time Remploy does fantastic job employing disabled which would normally not get work or find it hard to get companies employing them.

I bet Radar never thought in 12 months what was going to happen to disabled. I think remploy needs to stay and even expanded.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...es-could-close

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

nope totally wrong read what was posted not what you think i posted

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Benefit's helped me when I was unemployed and then retraining to do my present job.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

And in Leicestershire there is Advance Employment :D

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

explain it then.

As you just posted there is no issue with child tax credits as it already existed.

You posted earlier then that you think disability benefits need cutting.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

The issue seems to be more with Housing as this really is where much of the Benefit disagreement lies. Rather than coal face benefits for those who genuinely need it. Sadly there has been a lot of knee jerk reactions by the government fuelled by papers such as the Daily Fail. The disabled have been the hardest hit by such as ATOS. LHA takes no account of regional differences such as the proportion of social housing to private rentals & the corresponding lower LHA that results.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

I used to work in the engineering/manufacturing industry.....lost my job when my relationship with my ex went down hill and found myself unemployed for about 18 months.

I didn't want to go back into the manufacturing industry if could be helped and wanted to retrain which I did for the NHS.

When I approached the job centre and told them that the NHS are offering courses and was guaranteed a job at the end they didn't want to know told me that it would be classed as a full time course and I was be a student and not seeking work the course was for 3 months then I would be back in work full time.

I was finding that applying for jobs in the manufacturing industry I was over qualified or worked for big companies that the smaller ones didn't want to take me on. this was the start of the down turn in that area.

I managed to sort the training with private companies who were paying for the course and they let me out to sign on and not say anything.

it wasn't 3 but 6 months later I was back working full time in a new career. I have moved up since futher in the job. I found they didn't offer much help.

My stepson has special needs (aspergers and dyspraxia) he can't claim DLA even though he needs help at college. reason was that school got the diagnosis too late to get a full statement (while his cousin who was spotted early age with just (dyspraxia) gets DLA.

but I find there are a lot of people claiming they need it when they dont we are becoming a nation that relies on handouts but go back years ago when there was no family tax or anything like that how did people cope back then.

One of my ex's friends had 2 kids 2 different fathers the youngest was getting to school age and the social wanted her to start finding work because she had been on benefits since the eldest was born at least 7/8 years so what did she do she started sleeping around with just anyone to get pregnant again so she didn't have to work.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Housing it seems is highly variable. Round here one would be hard pressed to find something that would take benefit to obscene levels.

LHA seems in short a con, it was sold as quick to process and add indepency however the former may be true, the latter is no different to housing benefit but the disadvantage of LHA is it typically is less generous than housing benefit and leaves people short of their rent. I checked the rate for my area and it would only cover about 2/3 of my rent, and I am in the lower end of the market. I assume this is because they include housing association rents which of course distort the figures. I also read somewhere there was further distortion by them changing how its calcuated.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

I agree. This is something I get from desperate people worrying about how they will pay their rent. Desperate people who seem never to have the right points level to bid for social housing as few one bed places are available. So they are stuck with privately renting a two bed place and trying to find the shortfall, a shortfall which is likely to get bigger as they lose benefits. :fit:

So they are not the feckless breeders living in mansions as the Daily Wail would have us believe.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

I think we are wandering off topic slightly..;)

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Tax credits have been cut so i don't know what your point is

No i haven't ,you keep saying i have but refuse to show me the evidence ,i have just re read all my posts and i haven't said anything of the sort .I wish you would read posts instead of making things up .

What i have said in short is that there are plenty of people on invalidity benefits or sickness benefits of any type that shouldn't be on them and getting those people off them will help cut the bill

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Did you not say that these cuts are needed? I didnt read anywhere where you disagreed with them. If you disagree with them then I will apologise.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Wow!

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Have you won the lottery, Hugh?

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

No

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Where Benefit wars are fuelling violence is only because the obviously disabled make an easy target. Saddest of all, these are the people who truly deserve our compassion & support. These are the self same people who get bullied and ill served by ATOS and the stupid box ticking that deliberately ignores medical truths such as claiming someone profoundly deaf from birth can hear. Or treating anyone with degenerative illnesses as if they will get better.

So the people who will lose a few pounds from child tax credits or who read the scaremongering press will blame the benefit scroungers. However as they are not individually easy to identify the disabled become the target.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Well i guess i will find out what sort of attitude there is officially soon as i got my phone call tonight to attend my medical assessment in leicester early march. They weren't happy because they wanted me to take an 08:30 slot and i asked if it could be later as i need to time to get moving and also because i live 16 miles away and public transport can be a bit spotty at best. Already expecting the "fit for work" part despite having two consultants and an old fashioned gp (getting a sick note out of him is like blood from a stone lol) stating in their opinion i am not and will not be fit for work barring a breakthrough in treatment for my condition.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

You can ask for your meeting to be officially recorded or (secretly) record this yourself (though this will not be admissible as evidence). Also may be worth taking someone with you as back up. - Best of luck & fingers crossed.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Sadly i cannot afford to hire a professional sound engineer and alll his equipment for a day and i have to get permission from atos to do that which they are unlikely to give. If i did get their permission i would arrive to be told i had to wait till an assessor was available and that seems to take quite a while once they find out they will be recorded. As you said secretly recording is no good as it cannot be officially used. I am already consigned to having to appeal because someone saying that the dwp dm's do not base it just on atos i have seen enough to know that the decision atos gives will be the end decision.

I am fortunate that all the doctors and nurses connected with me have already stated they would be happy to attend any hearing i may have so thats something. Growing hostility to claimants almost gaurantees these days that the longest and hardest way is the one claimants will have to travel.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

this list makes depressing reading.

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/content/detail...08&SubjectId=2

In my own personal opinion the current flaws with welfare are.

1 - age discrimination thresholds, which is the single room rate on LHA/HB, cold weather payments, as well as age addition on IB.
2 - huge amounts of child benefit of which child tax credit is the main culprit, these are what hit the media headlines.

That page has a detailed list of welfare changes, not everything is listed but a lot of it is.

What stands out is.

Single childless people have been targeted (even tho they the currently most vulnerable group) by raising the single room rate age discrimination to 35. The savings of it listed is tiny. In addition working tax credit is frozen not even increasing with inflation.
Child tax credit will actually be increased above inflation. With all the media attention drawn to benefits they are increasing the most generous benefit.
Cold weather payments getting an increase which is of course a age limited benefit.
Extending help to those with mortgages.

So they have targeted help to those with children, pensioners and homeowners. All looks politically motivated to me, doing what wins votes, or rather stems the losses of votes.

eg. they have a cut listed worth 385million which is apparently unaffordable but the child tax credit increase will cost half a billion per year. Which is what I meant earlier when I said the word unaffordable is misused.

There seems to be a mindset if someone is single, childless, ill they are the ones to live in poverty.

Also look how pitiful the savings are for the 26k cap, which shows how few actually will be affected for what the media made look like was widespread.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Thats the trouble with figures they rarely lie but in this case they also don't show real justification for the continued onslaught against those on benefit. Until such time as the general public get a real grasp of the welfare situation and understand that what is happeing now isn't actually doing anything but hitting the most vulnerable nothing will change.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Well now we should consider voting for them, mainly to teach the main parties a lesson!

---------- Post added at 11:16 ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 ----------

They are better off cracking down on Tax Evation!

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

They are supposed to provide the recording stuff should you request it. However, the point of recording surreptitiously is to have a personal record of what was said so that when the report comes back you can see where they have misrepresented what you said. Even though you cannot prove it, at least you will know where they are marking incorrectly for your appeal should you need to.



As for Child Tax Credits - yes they may be going up, but the level at which you lose them has been considerably reduced.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17288825

"Other schemes" such as ATOS and ESA?

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Yep. the whole country is going back to work. but if in the unlikely event there isn't enough work for everybody. then you can have the jobseekers going rate whilst you wait for a job to come up.

while you're waiting for a job to come up. you might as well go and work at the likes of Tescos for free for a few months whilst you're waiting for an employer wanting to pay a working wage and take you on for some strange reason.

and the best part is, he'll be wanting to pay you a little bit less because you're 'disabled' but don't worry. the government will throw the book called 'The Minimum Wage Laws of The UK' at him. and the public will think it's digusting him wanting to exploit you like that just because of your situation.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

This happened where I live?

Then this?

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

You know what nothing suprises me anymore if we had some crazy policy that disabled have to work permently for no money then got prosecuted for working on the side I would be not shocked anymore.

What does cameron actually want he seems to be complete arse backwards he wants disabled working yet hitting out at remploy. Many which would pretty hard pressed to get work due to there disability.

In ideal world companies would have disabled friendly environments in the workplace but the costs to do this would mean they wont. Also it may cost more money if it can be claimed by them. We may as well keep remploy.

I dont buy the figures that was banted about that you could get 3 times the disabled normal workplaces than remploy. Costs will surely exscelate.

Whats to see every penny would be re-invested so surely better for this system than nothing. Doubt jobcentre will be geared to helping the numbers back into work.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

The Chairwoman of a disabled charity (run by disabled people) was on Radio 4 tonight; Liz Sayce, chief executive of Disability Rights UK.
She said that for the £25,000 per job subsidy for some of these Remploy factories, 8 disabled people could be given assistance to work in mainstream jobs and be integrated rather than separated.

Link

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

well the figures dont stack up 54 factories employ 2,000 I said from day one liz syche been very wrong in her accessment. She sadly becoming to disabled the lacky for the government attack on disabled.

take this fellow this the real issue the lies of stench the reasons.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

If you stopped posting gibberish we might be able to understand you...

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

How these who in remploy going to get work in this climate then ask me that question remploy got 20,000 people into work also why cant the factories stay open as interim until the climate better then.

Like many disabled the lies coming out is disgusting truth should be open why remploy being closed.

list a quote from poster on forum why the move is wrong.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

What we need are more decent jobs for more people, otherwise people will get angry and will demand change

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

They take their chances the same as anyone else .
Considering that Remploy is a not for profit government funded organisation then it does not surprise me in the least that they will be subject to cuts the same as anyone else ,and as with all businesses these days they are subject to restructuring just to stay afloat so why should Remploy be any different ?

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

The government should however help create more decent jobs

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

very brazen Im all right jack atitude there hope you never in this position. They want them to be working yet destroying all the help needed to get disabled work.

Alot of support funding has been shelved without it companies wont employ those in need this where Remploy filled the gap. Many those will be thrown on the scrapheap these was wanting work.

The last cull remploy factories only 1 in 12 got a job in mainstream. Reality this the future those disabled who lose there jobs from remploy. That was under better climate now job market even worse it will be lucky to see 1 in 30 get a job. That think will be being kind while there abundance able bodied potential workers out there you wont see many disabled get a look in.

I hate this I'm all right jack arrogent atitudes make me sick to death of this country. The saving on this was nothing.

As for disabled support this motion think again organisations was suposed to support welfare changes and streamlining disabled payments and removal dla for the new one. It was complete crock of lies now disabled organisations shown to be against some of the legislation.

It will be the same on remploy when most disabled will get shafted as there support evaporates. Workfare is the future disabled working for nothing with forced labour with threats of removal of benefits.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

The Jack attitude will be this countries downfall. we're allowing all this to happen because we're alright Jack. but even Jack knows that all of it is going to blow up in our faces in due time.

and fortunately I'm going to be around to see the chaos.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

You do realise that the money isn't being taken away it is being ringfenced .All the government are doing is what the majority of charities want which is to stop segregating disabled people and help them to work in the mainstream work enviroment .
When Remploy was started back in 1945 the world was different place with very few if any work places willing or able to employ disabled people .Now with modern disability laws factories and offices are not allowed to discriminate so the Remploy factories are not needed ,they are a drain on any budget set aside for helping disabled people .Very few of the factories actually break even they are sucking up the money meant for other purposes so the best thing all round is to shut them and use the money to help more disabled people more effectively

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Interesting viewpoint (if a little strange).

What if the chaos blows up in your face - will it still be fortunate then?

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Even the charities that have any involvement with Remploy can see that the model is outdated and unviable ,why should the government use money to keep a loss making factory open when the same amount of money can help many more disabled people .

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Yes. because I can tell everyone I told you so.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Me and my MP are helping someone at the moment.

The DWP got their postcode wrong so the person didnt get an appointment letter for a medical assessment and as a result has got kicked off. The DWP refused to make a new appointment and also refused to follow past precedent set in previous trubunal rulings.

The DWP have always been tough but I have never seen this kind of behaviour before, they appear to have gone out their way to be awkward in this case. They even read out the wrong postcode over the phone to the MP who is now a witness in the event.

---------- Post added at 16:22 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------

I dont think the world is much different now.

Most disabled people who work are usually people who turned disabled when already employed by that company and as such the company would have to be careful sacking them.

eg. when I fell ill half a dozen years or so back I was working for jessops and it took them just 2 weeks to sack me as I was in a probation period, I asked them to redeploy me and even drop my wages but they werent interested. That was when I claimed IB, they even told me to claim it and wrote a letter to the DWP.

I think the difference is now quite simply there is less sympathy in what is a harsher living environment.

I spoke to someone within the DWP when a case was been discussed about 6 months back and was discussing the new medical with them, they were pushing across the point that the modern work place is now more disabled freindly etc. and the new medicals were to reflect that. I said companies were only doing whats required by law and will still not willingly employ sick people, its goes against common sense and their duties to shareholders. The DWP seem to have missed the point its not about what someone can do its more about if they employable and how their physical health is affected. When I asked the DWP person to give me some examples of companies employing sick people they couldnt even name me one. What the DWP is essentially doing is telling sick and disabled people they need to compete for jobs on a equal footing with fit and able people in a dog eat dog world, knowing they will just get slaughtered.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

I have to disagree with most of that post .The latest figures bandied about are that 48%of disabled people of working age are working which isn't bad compared to what it used to be so obviously there are companies employing disabled people ..Companies that do employ disabled people tend to find that the disabled person tends to stay with that company which is better for everybody .There is plenty of help for companies when they employ disabled people both from the government and charities .I think yours and others attitudes that the world and his brother are ganging up on disabled people quite tiresome ,there has never been as help for disabled people in all walks of life as there is now ,we are ,at last doing what they want and that is treating them as individuals and equals instead of lumping them in one group

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

I dont care for figures, I care for real life experience. I am just balancing the discussion here and will still be stepping back from the discussion so wont be arguing this with you.

Also disability can wildly vary, what these figures dont show is how the working are disabled. People like yourself think the world is black and white and that disabled = disabled.

Variations such as the condition itself, the severity, if its managed well with treatment etc.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Same happened with me and I agree about what you said regarding the DWP

Few companies is going to hire someone if they can't meet or exceed existing workers speed/efficiency.

And they're hardly going to hire someone who, even if being truthful, has frequent bouts of illness.

In my case, I suffer from chronic migraines/cluster headaches which leave me bed ridden for a day or more, who in their right mind would hire me if I'm "potentially" off several times a month?

The last company I worked at only allowed three sickness days...ever, so I had to leave rather than be "disciplined" and eventually fired.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

You sure about that, i suspect that is wrong and you gave up your job for nothing

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

I'm sure he probably meant occurrences rather than days. Employers like Unilever has something similar, where if you are off for 4 occurrences in one year, you could be sacked. This could mean that 1 day off would be 1 occurrence and the same if it was for 1 week (consecutive days). So in theory if you take 4 separate non consecutive days off in 1 year, you could end up out of a job.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

That sounds more reasonable

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

A few pearls of wisdom from the job centre wheni was still seeing the DEA.

Having to attend hospital once or twice a week is not a barrier to getting full time employment - any employer will allow you to make up the time.

The access to work scheme means that an employer will have no problem taking you on as the government will pay part of the cost of the specialist equipment to do so. Oddly though in all the interviews I've had a fair few have cited the reason they can't afford this as a reason for me not getting the job.

Then of course as I've mentioned elsewhere the job centre won't let me see the DEA now until I've been assessed for ESA.

But despite all this I'm still doing it all off my own back now, I would appreciate help from the government with it but it seems sadly lacking.

Does it stress me out ? Yep but there's nothing I can do about it so I plod on.

Now that Natalie lives with me I'm not on means tested benefits do I can do work from home like fixing pcs which is what I do a lot of.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Sadly not everyone with a disability has a Natalie or a partner working full time and able to make them a dependent.

Damn I thought it was bad back in the 70s but I think it's going to get much worse than then.

I wonder if there are children having to share a boiled egg like my mother and aunt had to during the years of the Great Depression?

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Indeed I am very fortunate but won't be a le to do what I'm doing for much longer.

Anyway yes there are children like this.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

I'm glad someone other than me can see what the future is going to be.

shall you and I save the country and stop it whilst we can. or shall we just hold on tight and hope another country in the world comes and rescues us at the time?

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

a lot of companies will automatically discipline you for sickness, even with valid evidence. My sister got disciplined for having a stroke. Although after that she did survive a redundancy cull they did afterwards, but nevetherless she is a step up the disciplinary table in her company.

---------- Post added at 23:47 ---------- Previous post was at 23:35 ----------

I also work from home now, its probably the only way I can work. I even had to give up charity work I did as I couldnt fulfill my commitments.

Like yourself I found no help whatsoever from the government in obtaining work, it was all done of my own back, (and no martyh mandating people to do shelve stacking is not helping them find suitable work.)

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

You have just admitted that you work from home and you managed it all by yourself and yet you still want the government (or tax payer) to hold your hand .You are exactly what is wrong in society today ,too many people rely on the government to hold their hand and support them when in reality (as you have proven) many are quite capable of doing it themselves if they actually try ...as it is supposed to be .You will find that over the next few years quite a few people who couldn't manage will, all of a sudden ,be able to manage when the support stops or is reduced

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Well you had better hope that nothing untoward happens in your life and you find yourself in a situation that many that you jeer at on CF have found themselves and struggling to get by through no fault of their own..Then maybe you will begin to have some true empathy with them.

That expression 'there but for the grace of god/fate' holds very true.It can happen to anyone.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

I did but if I had no state support I wouldnt have even got the chance as instead I would have been homeless concentrating on getting food and somewhere to sleep instead of trying to get my life back on track.

What you have discounted is the time period between when I lost my jessops job and when I was earning enough to support myself, as if that time period didnt exist.

You still have yet to reveal your background and your motive for your reasoning.

Its also probable if I was been forced to do work related activities which had no relation to what I could possibly do I would never have achieved anything.

You are very wrong on what you think will happen, its already been proven in the states. When welfare support stops people dont magically get cured and start working, instead you get homeless piling up on the streets and things like soup kitchens popping up. Families will get strained as well as vulnerable people will become dependant on family members.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Oh get of your soap box Maggie ,no where have i "jeered" at anyone on CF .Chrys has himself pointed out that he works from home and sorted it out for himself so why would he need government help if by his own admission he is quite capable of doing it himself .

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

You jeering, you think you above anyone who is a claimant because you got lucky with your health.

I needed the financial help, that is very clear.

The point I made is all the noise government's make about helping people with work, training etc. is pretty much all noise. There way of helping people into work is compulsory activity that fits what employers need cheap labour for rather than suitable help.

The other point I am making is you see it that everyone in society needs to be productive paying into it, I see it as the able of society should look after the vulnerable in society. I have moaned about many things in life but I have never moaned about taxes and never about supporting people on benefits. That was the case as well even before I had ever claimed any benefits. I started doing charity work since I was 17 where I used to do furniture deliveries to elderly people's homes for a charity one day a week, and I even carried that on when I was doing 6 12 hour shifts a week.
.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

mmm the sound of back peddling is deafening Chrys . In your previous post you quite clearly stated that "I found no help whatsoever from the government in obtaining work" but in the next post you state you did .I was only commenting on the fact that you objected to not getting any government support in finding a job despite ,according to you ,managing to sort work out for yourself .
I should point out for the benefit of some that if you have managed to source work and work from home then i applaud that and will earn respect from me and many others ,but relying on or expecting the state to support you when you are quite clearly on your own admission capable of doing it yourself should earn you no respect.
I sincerely hope it is the former

---------- Post added at 20:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

Well i can't help it if that's how you choose to interpret posts

How about you ask all the people that training schemes have helped into work if they think they are a waste of time


and if you bother to read and absorb anything i have posted you will see that i have said exactly the same. The only difference is that i have had the temerity ,the outright gall ,to suggest that some registered disabled people are lazy and need a boot up their jaksy to get them to realise that maybe they aren't as helpless as they think they are

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

There are very few jobs in my local area full stop let alone those that would employ a disabled person so if welfare stops for say fifty people in my area how the hell are they suddenly supposed to manage for themselves then Marty jobs don't just appear. It really isn't as simple as you make it out and quite often when you talk on the subject you don't need to state you don't know much about the reality of the system because your posts scream it. Reading what is on websites and hearing what some two faced government lapdog has to say are totally different to living within this system.

Being honest i am going to stay out of these types of threads from now on i can see exactly where the wind is blowing and although i have always said i wouldn't wish my illness on my worst enemy these days there are quite a few i would be happy to see in my boat and the same boat as many other medically disabled so they would start to understand and realise how pathetic and petty these reforms are.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

To me qualification for IB/ESA or whatever it be called in future probably UC as that law is signed off now is not about if someone can do work from home or whatever but more about if they employable and capable of getting a job via normal means. That is very different to someone starting a business from home.

The new way of identifying if someone is capable of work is flawed and I wont stand by it ever, its purpose is simply to save money.

Everyone reading this thread will have read enough now to make their own judgements, but you come across martyh as someone who advocates "survival of the fittest" and a general advocate of slave labour practices. My guess is I come out on top with respect points. Bye for now, unsubbing from the thread again as taking too much time up responding just to you again.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

your valued insightful poster dont let them drive you out posting in issues which effect you.

Sadly we have breed a society which has many who are cold uncaring people. I dont wish any illness on anybody even evil people maybe its just my nature to forgive. Do agree these people who got cold heartless atitude may thing reflect there views as someday it might be them who need help.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

With respect Rizzy but there are very few jobs for anybody ,that is not new news .No body is suggesting ,not even the government,that just because some disabled people get taken of a disability benefit they will get a job ,they are just saying that in reality they are capable of doing a job.They will continue to get help ,just not as much as they are used to

---------- Post added at 20:39 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

aw bless ,i think what you mean is that when someone posts something that doesn't fit your world view you have a temper tantrum:rolleyes:

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

And along with that comes the attitude that they are on their own. it's already getting to the stage where the 'normal' public look down on these kind of people because they assume there's nothing wrong with them now because the government and the media imply the same.

the whole objective is purely to save money. they will find any way they can to reduce what these people get both in finance and support.
and we'll get Dave's big slaphead on tele showing his anger and hate towards these people being covered up with dramatic (Tony Bliar rip off) hand gestures.

society is going to change dramatically towards these kind of people now. and society is going to be paying a bigger price for it.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Yes, that's what I meant.;)

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Maybe in your world ,but not in mine

yes Gary ,that is the point and in other obvious news the suns going to rise tomorrow

well if people ,such as yourself ,truly believe that then it's bound to happen isn't it .
What will happen ,i hope ,is that society will learn to wean itself of the governments teat which it has become increasingly dependant on over the last 30-40yrs

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

As much money as possible. and don't care who suffers as a result.
meanwhile, we'll give millions of pounds away. we'll write billions of pounds off. and we'll pay for an MP's newspaper, because he's tighter than one of them tight things.

Until Dave takes it away from us.

Yeh, if you're incapable of preparing a meal and cooking that meal. you're now capable of pushing the Start button on the microwave.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

EH ? what the hell does that mean ,your taliking gibberish again gary ,thought you ought to know

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Thanks for telling me.

If it takes you an hour to walk there when it usually takes 10 mins. start out earlier.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

i give up ,i can't be bothered with your criptic ramblings

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

That's probably because you are too focussed on disabled people need to get a job.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

you'll have to show me where i said that because i don't recall ever saying that .

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

This thread has definitely proved its title. :mis:

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

How so ?

I think that this thread has proven that some people think that all disabled people should be allowed to sit on benefits and be supported by the state regardless of the severity of their disability and any suggestion that some disabled people are capable of working and supporting themselves is met with out and out hostility

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

No martyh there whole host disibilities who could but it should be case by case with not just based on disibilty alone. The medication how that disabilty effects them should be considered.

Its not as black & white some with same disability and medication could have totally different reactions which cause bad adversities.

I also do think some errors down to people who filled the forms in its not the easiest thing to do to fill government forms. People can be either dishonest (deliberate exageration) or too honest (say you can do things but clearly cant you would not believe how many do that). The forms itself are very big factor to play in errors too. Some dont get profesional advice to help fill them in and dont mean the crook down the road talking proper charity help or council funded or even go to your GP. The new form I believe worse in itself tries to trap people with its wording think that caught out alot. Reading the disibilty forums one is can you stand without someone supporting you it makes no mention of aids. Now clearly if you need aid then its a NO but how many misunderstood the question. I think the government goto remember not all disabled will understand the way it sets questions. The government got duty be fair make sure form filling is simple and help booklet provided with loads examples which would ideal.

I think the more disabled help out there on form filling there believe been less errors.

There should also be another consideration for those in wrag the CLIMATE wrong at present so expecting instant job movement wont happen.

I maybe wrong but my understanding wrag assessment group. To assess those in wrag see what sort work and when if not yet move them to support.

What is clear over the months the assessment part of the changes is possible weak whether ATOS over stepping interpretation or guides weak it needs addressing. Errors we need to elliminate. Its not suprising the fear from disabled due to hostility they get in the streets. The errors whether due to misunderstanding errors from filling the form or ATOS these causing/caused no end collateral damage.

Martyh you surely can be understanding why the fear is there its nothing to do with weening of benefits its the fear of being wrongly assessed and the hostility towards them.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Yet by the same token anyone who does manage to find work off their own bat despite disability is jumped on for also expecting state help to either continue in work or failing that find other work. If you are disabled you may need no help from the state to work or you may need help to get work and sustain the job. Neither scenario is wrong. The important issue is what is not perhaps the cheapest option but what is cost effective in the long term. Clearly parts of Remploy were not cost effective so the right decision has for once been made. However, this government seems to have no idea how cost effective it is to keep a disabled person in their own home with a little support rather than in highly expensive residential care. So the vast majority of genuine disabled folk are lumped together with the tiny minority of fakers. :fit:

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

...along with their Carers.

"Carer Abuse" is something I encounter at least once a week, by people who would not do the "job", especially at the pitiful rates we are "reimbursed".

I know several "professional carers" who end up with a much better overall income for far fewer hours... and they only get a small percentage of what their bosses demand for their labours.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Problem is separating the genuine from the fakers ,and part of the problem is that the term "disabled" is so easily applied to people these days .I've just had a browse at the latest figures and am staggered to see that 1 in 5 people of working age in the UK are considered disabled .Now either the UK is a very sick place and getting worse or the definition of disabled has been changed to include anybody with a limp or is a tad anxious .Finding the fakers amongst those 1 in 5 is the job the government has been tasked with and it isn''t going to be easy given that the term disabled has been so easily applied

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

No different from lumping everyone together who is over 6' tall & saying they are the normal hight. They can manage things just because they are tall that shorter people couldn't. Doesn't make the problems the shorter people have any less of an issue. Just needs different ways of making things compatible for the people who are not 6' tall.

Or like saying everyone is guaranteed shoes and only providing size 6. For some this will be useless, for others a bit of adjustment will do. However what ATOS are doing is trying to make everyone fit into a size 6 which is impossible as there is not enough to go round.

It is focussing on those in society who need help that is making them the target, whether through stupidity, ignorance or jealousy. Many of these disabled are not equipped to understand why they are being targeted or even defend themselves, yet this obsession with the sins of a few is being paid in terror by the innocent. This Cannot ever be justified.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

I like the shoe analogy..:)

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

What is it with women and shoes? ;)

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Shoes don't care what dress size you are ;)

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

So do you not think that given the definition of disabled is so lose these days that some people (the ignorant ,stupid,jealous ,I'll add angry to that list) find it difficult to identify disabled people and see many as malingerers or even fakers

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

What is your true definition of being 'disabled'. Not a dictionary answer, but one that everyone could understand why and how you can say all you have lately on the subject.

Also, your idea of what shouldn't be classed as disabled. Only fair to ask.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Neither do I... ;)



Now what about handbags? :)

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

can you define disabled? only fair to ask :rolleyes:.
There is only one definition of disabled but there are many different levels of disability ,what we seem to be contesting within society at the moment is how much a person is disabled and how much that disability warrants no support , some level of support or total support .Good examples are people with HIV or cancer ,both are considered disabled and are protected under the disabilities and equality act ,i would not concider all cancer sufferers and all HIV sufferers as disabled some yes but not all ,the disability act however does which is wrong imo .

Now if you would be so kind as to explain what you mean by this
"why and how you can say all you have lately on the subject."

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

The point being this obsession with the few who cheat the system is causing problems for the innocent, particularly those with LD. They may just look slightly different or not speak properly/at all yet they will be targetted by the mindless idiots because of the press and governments fixation on a few. Yes we all know a few who do cheat the system, but I bet you are totally unaware of those who could be out & about when you are at work, or chained to the house due to agoraphobia or be totally dependent on others. They are all needing help but are invisible most of the time.

We are all disabled in one way or another. Even something as simple as not knowing a particular language makes you unable to understand another person, creating a disability for both of you. Medical disability classifications work on the supposition there is a cure - there isn't always.

Nor is this obsession necessarily cost effective. Why for example have some people been called more than once to an ATOS medical when nothing in their condition has changed.

I just wish they would go after the tax avoiders with the same vehemence they have used on those who need help.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

It's not just about benefit cheats though ,i accept that the official numbers are a small minority compared to the number of people on benefits of one kind or another .We also have to look at the number of people who qualify for disability benefits which has risen dramatically over the last decade of so .Yes a lot of people need help but realistically we can't support all disabled people and hard choices about the type and severity of disabilities have to be made .

Tax avoidance is legal ,you can't go after people if they aren't breaking the law .Loopholes do need to closed but changing the laws to make something illegal that used to be legal is a bigger deal than most people think .There are a whole host of moral and ethical questions raised when something is made illegal purely to get money out of people .
Tax evasion is illegal and people involved in such practices can and do end up in jail ,but proving that they have evaded tax is sometimes very hard and can take years .To be blunt ,but practical ,if the government are going to save money then cutting down on welfare has an immediate effect cutting down on tax evasion or ,tax avoidance will take years

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

So is claiming benefits you are entitled to, yet current opinion brands you a guilty scrounger for having the nerve to claim.

More people are claiming for MH problems since the current government has come to power. :erm:

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

That's a problem that society has to sort out .I certainly don't brand all claimants as scroungers ,but i do recognize that too many people are being given benefits to the detrement of other members of society


Kind of proves my point doesn't it .Under the current system people are getting away with claiming for anything so imo the government are doing right in changing the system

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Which pretty much sums up it up for me to clearly say that you haven't got a clue, it's just black and white to you. I don't see much point in saying too much as you have a clear opinion on a subject you that haven't got the foggiest idea to what is really happening and how it will affect real people. But as long as you're okay, I'm sure you'll have a lot to say on the subject.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Quite clearly you think that every claimant is justified and every claimant should be given money and support which what is so wrong with the system .Not all disabled need support ,that is a fact whether you like it or not .

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

No! Under the current system NEW claims are being put in for MH issues, ironically the hardest to prove to the ATOS people. So under this government MORE people are being afflicted with MH problems. How does this prove the system is achieving its aim?

I know someone who should be claiming and desperately needs the help but pride and the hoops you have to jump through is preventing him trying any more.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

So what your saying is basically that over the last decade or so there has been an epidemic of mental health issues :rolleyes:.Why all of a sudden are so many people being classed as disabled either physical or mental ?Why are more people claiming disability benefits of some kind than are claiming unemployment benefit ?

have a read of this it's a good article imo .

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/br...nefits-debate/

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Are you saying people want to be classed as mentally ill to get benefits? Would you want to get the stigma of being considered mentally incapable for the rest of your life?Because I can assure you it is something that follows you around where ever you go.Even those who are mentally ill don't want to be classed as such and will do anything to hide the fact.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

so where is this sickness coming from ,why are so many people classed as mentally ill .Is it the water ,the food ?something must be causing it .You insist that people don't want to be classed as mentally ill so by extension they must be genuine claimants ,then something is causing the problem,what ?.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Maybe everyone is finding a society that couldn't give a toss about the next man/women/child rather stressful.Maybe modern life is more stressful.Maybe two wars in 10 years and the terrorist attacks have added to everyone's anxiety.Then we have a never ending recession where being poor makes you a target for those who hate poor people.Personally I can't say that I KNOW that there are more mentally ill than ever before and I suspect you have no more idea about that either.

Maybe if the Daily Mail and other papers of that ilk would actually report truthful news for a change we would have a happier society.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

Now where did I say every claimant should be paid disability? But I do agree, quite a lot of people do get turned down for Incap/DLA, Because they don't qualify, or down to a factor of just filling in the forms wrongly. But what I do object to is people like yourself saying the way things are now going to be is justifiable.

There will be a lot of people who are genuinely disabled and totally incapable of work who rely on their benefits only to find out the goalposts have now moved way beyond what people 'signed up' for. I was told that the Tories will be making the process easier (sounded good), and I was told that those that need help will get it (sounded even better). But according to you all that is still correct and that's what you believe, well unless you know what you're talking about, you'll see that really is far far from the truth. We've (the genuine) have been hung out and left to dry, but you say you welcome this.. So hopefully you can now see why you've put a few backs up here.

Re: Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities
 

I don't ,i just took Angua at her word but the figures produced by HMG seem to support it .

around 300 people out of 1,000 will experience mental health problems every year in Britain
230 of these will visit a GP
102 of these will be diagnosed as having a mental health problem
24 of these will be referred to a specialist psychiatric service
6 will become inpatients in psychiatric hospitals.

http://www.mind.org.uk/help/research...ental_distress