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-   -   New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ? (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33684419)

Hugh 10-01-2012 10:47
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
£17 billion for London -Brum.

danielf 10-01-2012 10:50
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35358392)
£17 billion for London -Brum.
Ah. What's the £32 Billion that everyone's throwing around for? London-Manchester?

Edit: Oh, I see, branches to Manchester as well as Leeds. Good stuff, the whole thing just got 50% cheaper in my reckoning :)

Hugh 10-01-2012 11:03
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
And Leeds (and perhaps a bit further).

danielf 10-01-2012 11:05
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35358399)
And Leeds (and perhaps a bit further).
Yeah, I just edited my post.

Chris 10-01-2012 11:10
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
The plan seems to be to allow HS trains to run onto existing track beyond Manchester and Leeds, allowing Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh access to HS2. Although there does still seem to be a long-term aspiration to extend the high-speed lines themselves all the way to Scotland.

Alan Fry 10-01-2012 11:21
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35358402)
The plan seems to be to allow HS trains to run onto existing track beyond Manchester and Leeds, allowing Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh access to HS2. Although there does still seem to be a long-term aspiration to extend the high-speed lines themselves all the way to Scotland.
They will need to upgrade some parts of the ECMIL and WCML to that, bettet to extend HS2 to Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh, Manchester and Leeds at the same time as building the line to Birmingham from London

Hugh 10-01-2012 12:02
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
You have obviously never heard of phasing in projects - do a bit at a time, learn from mistakes/best practice, deliver next phase.

Less risk, better delivery.

Damien 10-01-2012 12:04
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35358441)
You have obviously never heard of phasing in projects - do a bit at a time, learn from mistakes/best practice, deliver next phase.

Less risk, better delivery.
But I want it all nnoooooowwwwwww :cry:

Alan Fry 10-01-2012 12:21
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35358441)
You have obviously never heard of phasing in projects - do a bit at a time, learn from mistakes/best practice, deliver next phase.

Less risk, better delivery.
I get what you mean, but then building HS2 would take so long that whn it is fully finshed the technonlogy would be out of date, it would take until 2026 to reach Birmingham, 2032 to reach Leeds and Manchester, and who know for the rest of the nations, maybe 2040s-2050s, by then the TGV/ICE technology that virtually all High Speed Railways would be 50 years old, it is likely by then that Maglev would common by then!

Hugh 10-01-2012 14:02
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Big Bang approach is more disruptive and likely to fail (as history shows with large programmes of work), and I am not sure if the technology of railways has changed that much in the last 20-30 years, as I am still waiting for my flying car and jet-pack.

Alan Fry 10-01-2012 14:24
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35358562)
Big Bang approach is more disruptive and likely to fail (as history shows with large programmes of work), and I am not sure if the technology of railways has changed that much in the last 20-30 years, as I am still waiting for my flying car and jet-pack.
30 years ago, we hardly no any High Speed Rail Line apart from france, and they were just started, Maglev technology is already in operation in China, Im am sure that in 40 it will spread, then again who knows.....

Hugh 10-01-2012 14:35
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35358574)
30 years ago, we hardly no any High Speed Rail Line apart from france, and they were just started, Maglev technology is already in operation in China, Im am sure that in 40 it will spread, then again who knows.....
In the UK, the HS125's went into production in the early 70's - it's the tracks that are the problems, not the trains.

Alan Fry 10-01-2012 14:35
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35358587)
In the UK, the HS125's went into production in the early 70's - it's the tracks that are the problems, not the trains.
I would agree with that!

Osem 10-01-2012 14:43
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35358347)
Osem, you're cherry-picking the evidence you want to accept and declaring it "more realistic" because it tallies with what you have already decided is going to be the fate of HS2 ;)

Incidentally, part of the problem these things cost so much more, mile for mile, in this country, is because of the Nimbys and the nay-sayers who insist on objecting their way to the highest court in the land before accepting the democratic right of an elected government to take strategic decisions about the infrastructure of the country.

This decision has been taken by a government that, rarely for the UK, represents a very large majority of those who voted in the last general election. Furthermore, Labour is broadly supportive of HS2, having initiated the thing in the first place. They really should now be allowed to get on and build it.
Not really, I've come late to this debate because I'm not inherently for or against high speed rail as I've made clear. I simply searched for recent high speed links and found the Dutch example. Highlighting it's problems is no more cherry picking than citing French infrastructure built years ago in a very different financial climate, under very different planning laws and supported by successive governments totally committed to such projects. ;)

Hoping they'll get on a build it now is fine but it overlooks the reality that our planning laws make that very difficult and add greatly to the timescale and therefore the cost. If we could get this thing built in the same way the French have done, the benefits v. costs would be far better IMHO but we're not in France and I can see this thing dragging on and on with the costs mushrooming. A sad but realistic assessment IMHO.

Time, as they say, will tell and I just hope that, if it's going to happen, it's done well and lives up to its supporters hopes and expectations. To that extent I hope I'm wrong. ;)

Damien 10-01-2012 14:47
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35358597)
Not really, I've come late to this debate because I'm not inherently for or against rail as I've made clear. I simply searched for recent high speed links and found the Dutch example. Highlighting it's problems is no more cherry picking than citing French infrastructure built years ago in a very different financial climate, under very different planning laws and supported by successive governments totally committed to such projects. ;)
I only used the French example to counter your own mention of the Dutch. I have only mentioned the other countries networks to highlight how high speed rail is becoming more common place in developed countries: Mainland Europe, Asia and it's being mooted over in America.

Also successive governments are committed to HS2. Labour were for it, they still are, and so are the Tories.

Hugh 10-01-2012 15:00
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
It's been given the go-ahead.

BBC
Quote:
Travelling at speeds of up to 250mph, passengers will be able to commute from Birmingham to London in 45 minutes, reducing the journey time by almost half from one hour and 24 minutes.

A Birmingham to Leeds journey will be reduced from two hours to 57 minutes and a Manchester to London journey from two hours and eight minutes to one hour and eight minutes.

Connections to existing lines should then cut journey times between London, and Edinburgh and Glasgow, to three-and-a-half hours.

The first phase of HS2 will include a connection to Europe via the Channel Tunnel. On completion of HS2 the network will include a direct link to Heathrow

Alan Fry 10-01-2012 15:06
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35358617)
It's been given the go-ahead.

BBC
Well that is be good news, but would it make the West Midlands Part of the London Communiter Belt?

Hugh 10-01-2012 15:12
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Unlikely, unless you live in Birmingham City Centre, as you still have to get to the Railway station.....

Alan Fry 10-01-2012 15:15
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35358629)
Unlikely, unless you live in Birmingham City Centre, as you still have to get to the Railway station.....
Well some have to communte up to 2 hours from london so even if you lived in Sutton Coldfield (about 20 minutes from Birmingham city centre) you could easily communite to london!

Chrysalis 10-01-2012 15:19
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Ok 17billion, thats only the 80% markup now then ;)

Discussion over for me its approved. Is a inefficient use of cash in my view but thats that its happening.

Chris 10-01-2012 17:03
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35358629)
Unlikely, unless you live in Birmingham City Centre, as you still have to get to the Railway station.....
AFAIK the terminal is going to be nearer the NEC/airport/International station than New Street. Much easier to park and ride.

Alan Fry 12-01-2012 09:00
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Any news of any extensions of HS2 to Scotland and the North East?

---------- Post added at 09:49 ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 ----------

High Speed 2 could be coming to Scotland

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transpo...link_1_2049049

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 ----------

I think we will be be using this train on HS2:

This is the only trian that can reach the required 250mph speed on HS2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Velaro

Ravenheart 12-01-2012 09:06
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Terminal in Brum will be on the site of the original Curzon Street station in the Eastside part of the city with footbridge links to Moor Street and New Street stations, they're also planning an expansion at Birmingham International to tie in with the NEC and Airport.

New St Station is currently being redeveloped, to improve it from the black hole it's been while everything around it has changed, but it has been struggling with capacity for over 20 years, as has the line between Coventry and Birmingham, which handles all the Birmingham-London services as well as the Cross country trains down to Oxford/Reading and Bournemouth as well as the local services.

I just wish they'd get started on it, starting at both ends like they did with the channel tunnel, and use the French/German way of doing things making sure British companies get the contracts and start the planning for the extension on to Manchester/Leeds and Scotland

Alan Fry 12-01-2012 10:34
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
I bet Sutton Coldfield property price will rise, since via HS2 it is only up to 90 minutes from london

Chris 12-01-2012 13:28
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
A very interesting piece here: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...uction-of-hs2/

Quote:
One of my tasks way back when as a still relatively young financial journalist was to follow the tragicomedy of Eurotunnel ... It was always a complete mystery to me as to how private investors and bankers were so easily persuaded to part with their money, but no doubt a large part of the explanation was the brute determination, and frequently bullying tactics of the then chief executive, Sir Alastair Morton.

...

During one of the interminable refinancings, I wrote a piece saying investors would be mad to throw any more of their money into the tunnel. The numbers simply did not stack up.

...

I duly received a call ... inviting me to lunch to "talk me through" the numerous "errors" I had made in my analysis. Since it was obvious I was being summoned for a ticking off, I only agreed to go on condition that Sir Alastair wouldn't be there, as I knew what a monster he could be ... The lunch preceded in good spirit, and I duly took my correction. Then, as the coffee was being served, Sir Alastair suddenly appeared, as if from under the table, and proceeded, as I feared he would, to give me an almighty *******ing.

Listen, he said, we all know that the prospectus is a complete fiction ... but the important thing was to get the tunnel built, in the national interest. He knew, he told me, that I believed in the project as much as he did.

...

In the fullness of time, it wouldn't matter how much private investors lost on it all, the important thing was to get it built. The wider economic dividend would be immeasurable. He concluded by telling me it was my duty, as a British citizen, to support whatever needed to be done to ensure its completion. If Japanese bankers were being hoodwinked, so be it. I exaggerate only a little. This really was the gist of what he said ... by the way, sadly, Sir Alastair is now deceased, so I can write this recollection without fear of being sued.

With HS2, the criticism is not so much that it will cause untold misery for those that live in its path, or indeed that it will spoil great tracts of the English countryside, but rather that it is a white elephant in the making. The money could be much better spent elsewhere. I can't agree. At every stage in its construction, it will be castigated as a complete waste of money, and no doubt it will run hugely over budget – though interestingly, the high speed rail line linking the tunnel with inner London did not.
Yet once it's up and running, we'll wonder what all the fuss was about, and indeed how we ever managed without it. The UK needs a first world infrastructure to survive ... it also needs the jobs in construction and engineering that projects like this create. Would that Sir Alastair was still around to get it built.

Alan Fry 12-01-2012 13:46
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35360232)
So what would you do if you were asked to spend up to £65 billion (posible cost of HS2 if it reached scotland) on transport only!

Chris 12-01-2012 13:53
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35360247)
So what would you do if you were asked to spend up to £65 billion (posible cost of HS2 if it reached scotland) on transport only!
I'd point out that spending on HS2 is going to run at the rate of less than £2 billion per year, which is rather less than the total amount the Government spends across all departments (£710 billion this year alone).

Part of the problem we have here is that people either can't, or won't, stretch their minds to consider that we're talking about long-term investment spending, over an extended period of time, and not splurging a vast amount of unbudgeted cash right here and now. Some also don't seem to be able to hear the word 'billion' without immediately thinking 'massive waste'. The fact is, our national budget is chopped up by the billion and it won't be many years before the total runs well past a trillion. In terms of the budget of one of the biggest economies in the world - which we are - a billion is not a vast sum.

Damien 12-01-2012 13:56
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
I don't think people realise how good that Channel tunnel is. You can get from the centre of Paris to the Centre of London in under 2:30 hours, it's perfectly connected to the respective cities' train and metro/tube services.

Alan Fry 12-01-2012 13:59
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35360253)
I'd point out that spending on HS2 is going to run at the rate of less than £2 billion per year, which is rather less than the total amount the Government spends across all departments (£710 billion this year alone).

Part of the problem we have here is that people either can't, or won't, stretch their minds to consider that we're talking about long-term investment spending, over an extended period of time, and not splurging a vast amount of unbudgeted cash right here and now. Some also don't seem to be able to hear the word 'billion' without immediately thinking 'massive waste'. The fact is, our national budget is chopped up by the billion and it won't be many years before the total runs well past a trillion. In terms of the budget of one of the biggest economies in the world - which we are - a billion is not a vast sum.
I would agree!

Stuart 12-01-2012 13:59
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
I have to admit, I don't think the government have made an adequate for the rail link. Let me explain that. I am not against it. On the contrary, I think it could be a good thing.

However, the government are telling us that we need to spend nearly £40 billion just so people can shave 20 minutes off their journey to Birmingham. At least HS1 shaved a lot of time from the journey, and relieved congestion on some of the busiest track in the country.

I suppose I just want to know why we are paying so much. It does seem as though starting a major project in Britain adds at least 3 extra 0s to the number of millions something will cost.

danielf 12-01-2012 14:00
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35360232)
Quote:
Listen, he said, we all know that the prospectus is a complete fiction ... but the important thing was to get the tunnel built, in the national interest. He knew, he told me, that I believed in the project as much as he did.

...

In the fullness of time, it wouldn't matter how much private investors lost on it all, the important thing was to get it built. The wider economic dividend would be immeasurable. He concluded by telling me it was my duty, as a British citizen, to support whatever needed to be done to ensure its completion. If Japanese bankers were being hoodwinked, so be it. I exaggerate only a little. This really was the gist of what he said ... by the way, sadly, Sir Alastair is now deceased, so I can write this recollection without fear of being sued.
So why then are the planners seemingly unable to put a number on the wider economic dividends? I applaud investment in proper infrastructure (which I think the UK does far too little of), but basically going "we've plucked some numbers out of thin air, but just trust us, it'll work out in the end" doesn't sound very convincing.

Alan Fry 12-01-2012 14:01
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35360255)
I don't think people realise how good that Channel tunnel is. You can get from the centre of Paris to the Centre of London in under 2:30 hours, it's perfectly connected to the respective cities train and metro/tube services.
I feel that the high speed London to Paris link has done wonders for UK-France Trade and tourism!

danielf 12-01-2012 14:01
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35360260)
I have to admit, I don't think the government have made an adequate for the rail link. Let me explain that. I am not against it. On the contrary, I think it could be a good thing.

However, the government are telling us that we need to spend nearly £40 billion just so people can shave 20 minutes off their journey to Birmingham. At least HS1 shaved a lot of time from the journey, and relieved congestion on some of the busiest track in the country.

I suppose I just want to know why we are paying so much. It does seem as though starting a major project in Britain adds at least 3 extra 0s to the number of millions something will cost.
As pointed out earlier, the cost will be £17 billion for London-Birmingham.

Alan Fry 12-01-2012 14:10
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35360260)
I have to admit, I don't think the government have made an adequate for the rail link. Let me explain that. I am not against it. On the contrary, I think it could be a good thing.

However, the government are telling us that we need to spend nearly £40 billion just so people can shave 20 minutes off their journey to Birmingham. At least HS1 shaved a lot of time from the journey, and relieved congestion on some of the busiest track in the country.

I suppose I just want to know why we are paying so much. It does seem as though starting a major project in Britain adds at least 3 extra 0s to the number of millions something will cost.
It not just about speed, it is also about capacity! Along with connecting the North of England to the European High Speed Network!

---------- Post added at 15:10 ---------- Previous post was at 15:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35360264)
As pointed out earlier, the cost will be £17 billion for London-Birmingham.
But it will £32 billion for both London to Birmingham and Birmingham to Leeds/Manchester sectors and possible double that if it is to reach Edinburgh and Glasgow

danielf 12-01-2012 14:21
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35360268)

But it will £32 billion for both London to Birmingham and Birmingham to Leeds/Manchester sectors and possible double that if it is to reach Edinburgh and Glasgow
I know that. I was just pointing out that it's not £40 billion to shave 20 minutes off London-Birmingham, as was stated. The £40 (or rather £32) billion includes the Manchester and Leeds extensions.

Alan Fry 12-01-2012 14:34
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35360272)
I know that. I was just pointing out that it's not £40 billion to shave 20 minutes off London-Birmingham, as was stated. The £40 (or rather £32) billion includes the Manchester and Leeds extensions.
That is what I saying!

danielf 12-01-2012 14:35
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Yes, but I said it first :rolleyes:

Alan Fry 12-01-2012 14:36
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35360282)
Yes, but I said it first :rolleyes:
I know!

Chrysalis 12-01-2012 14:55
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35360255)
I don't think people realise how good that Channel tunnel is. You can get from the centre of Paris to the Centre of London in under 2:30 hours, it's perfectly connected to the respective cities' train and metro/tube services.
not much good to me as I dont live near london. ;)

the investment on HS1 HS2 etc. is a limited part of the country that benefits.

However the channel tunnel was replacing no line, there is already a line from brmingham to london.

AndyCambs 12-01-2012 15:01
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Inote also that the new link bypasses the East Coast completely - so despite being told "improvements on the way" for people commuting from Newark and points south to London - that seems to have been missed out..

Damien 12-01-2012 15:11
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35360296)
not much good to me as I dont live near london. ;)

the investment on HS1 HS2 etc. is a limited part of the country that benefits.

However the channel tunnel was replacing no line, there is already a line from brmingham to london.
High Speed should eventually benefit all the country. The idea is to remove any disadvantage from not being in the capital by reducing the time it takes to get there. It will make companies in, say, Sheffield feel less remote to their clients in London. All of which should mean business, jobs and homes being more eventually distributed across the UK rather than centralised in the South-East.

I get the feeling the Government are in a no-win situation. They are often criticised, including on this forum, for being too focused on London and yet they are also criticised for taking real steps to help developing outside of the capital.

---------- Post added at 16:11 ---------- Previous post was at 16:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyCambs (Post 35360302)
Inote also that the new link bypasses the East Coast completely - so despite being told "improvements on the way" for people commuting from Newark and points south to London - that seems to have been missed out..
Because for high speed to work they don't stop often. These aren't meant to be typical commuter trains which stop at many locations along their route, they are meant to connect the major population and business centres which in turn will have local routes to finish the journey. You don't take the motorway to your front door, you take it until the closest junction and then go on local roads to get there. Where before we were connected by the rail equivalent of a dual carriageway we're going to have a 4-lane motorway.

Chris 12-01-2012 15:41
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35360296)
However the channel tunnel was replacing no line, there is already a line from brmingham to london.
There were multiple ferry lines between Folkstone/Dover and Calais/Boulogne. The channel crossing time was (still is, by slow ferry) over an hour, compared to a little over half an hour by Eurotunnel.

To discount the channel as a comparison simply because the mode of travel was floating rather than running on rails is rather artificial.

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 09:01
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Can they build more stations in Sheffield and Maybe the Chilterns!

danielf 13-01-2012 09:07
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
They could, but stopping there would rather defeat the 'high speed' aspect of the whole thing.

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 09:32
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35360828)
They could, but stopping there would rather defeat the 'high speed' aspect of the whole thing.
It would only add about 5 to 10 minutes to the journey time, plue more stations would allow more people to benefit!

Hugh 13-01-2012 09:34
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
And each station would add 5-10 minutes, thus, as previously stated, defeating the "high-speed" aspect....

danielf 13-01-2012 09:56
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35360851)
It would only add about 5 to 10 minutes to the journey time, plue more stations would allow more people to benefit!
HS2 would shave 20 minutes off London-Birmingham. Adding 10 minutes to the journey times would half the high speed benefit. It's not going to happen, and we're not paying £17 billion for it.

Chrysalis 13-01-2012 10:08
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
so hang on a minute, it saves 20 minutes but if it had to stop it wouldnt save almost anything? yet the trains taking the extra 20 minutes are also making more stops?

Damien 13-01-2012 10:20
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35360877)
so hang on a minute, it saves 20 minutes but if it had to stop it wouldnt save almost anything? yet the trains taking the extra 20 minutes are also making more stops?
The estimates are worked out on a direct route. In reality the actual journey time saved will be 39 minutes. Presumably the difference between the 39 mins and the 24 mins is due to the normal trains stopping. So it will be 24 mins quicker on direct trains, 39 quicker in reality at HS2 won't stop as much.

danielf 13-01-2012 10:22
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Today's 11.43 from London to Birmingham stops at Milton Keynes and Coventry and takes 1hour 25 m.

According to Wikipedia, HS2 should reduce travel time from 1hour 12 minutes to 49 minutes. So that means 1 hour 12 minutes is without stops, and 2 stops take about 13 minutes.

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 10:33
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35360895)
Today's 11.43 from London to Birmingham stops at Milton Keynes and Coventry and takes 1hour 25 m.

According to Wikipedia, HS2 should reduce travel time from 1hour 12 minutes to 49 minutes. So that means 1 hour 12 minutes is without stops, and 2 stops take about 13 minutes.
Remember though that HS2 will be going at 186-250 mph compaired to 100-125mph on the WCML!

---------- Post added at 11:33 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35360853)
And each station would add 5-10 minutes, thus, as previously stated, defeating the "high-speed" aspect....
Adding stops would allow more people to benefit!

Chrysalis 13-01-2012 10:36
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
So why not have alternating trains one stops and the next one doesnt.

For the price the government is paying they should be aiming to benefit as many people as possible. Instead they going for maximum impact to headline times.

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 10:42
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35360916)
So why not have alternating trains one stops and the next one doesnt.

For the price the government is paying they should be aiming to benefit as many people as possible. Instead they going for maximum impact to headline times.
I would agree with that!

Hugh 13-01-2012 10:56
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35360916)
So why not have alternating trains one stops and the next one doesnt.

For the price the government is paying they should be aiming to benefit as many people as possible. Instead they going for maximum impact to headline times.
Perhaps because there are already trains on existing lines that stop, and can still be used?

Surely if defeats the point of a high-speed train if it has to keep slowing down, stopping, and then getting back up to speed again? We don't see that happening on the HS1, TGV, et al. That's like saying I want to catch a fast flight to New York from London, but it should stop in Manchester and Glasgow first, imho.

martyh 13-01-2012 10:58
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35360916)
So why not have alternating trains one stops and the next one doesnt.

For the price the government is paying they should be aiming to benefit as many people as possible. Instead they going for maximum impact to headline times.
Pointless having a HS line that stops too often ,it just doesn't make any sense and would add too much to the bill .Bus companies have express services between A-B they don't stop at every bus stop that's what the normal bus is for the same applies to trains

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 11:05
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35360947)
Pointless having a HS line that stops too often ,it just doesn't make any sense and would add too much to the bill .Bus companies have express services between A-B they don't stop at every bus stop that's what the normal bus is for the same applies to trains
I am only suggesting 1 or 2 stops between London and Birmingham and 1 or 2 on each of the branch lines to Leeds (in future maybe Edinburgh) and Manchester (in future maybe Glasgow)

Chrysalis 13-01-2012 11:06
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35360941)
Perhaps because there are already trains on existing lines that stop, and can still be used?

Surely if defeats the point of a high-speed train if it has to keep slowing down, stopping, and then getting back up to speed again? We don't see that happening on the HS1, TGV, et al. That's like saying I want to catch a fast flight to New York from London, but it should stop in Manchester and Glasgow first, imho.
its also pointless if hardly anyone can use it.

martyh 13-01-2012 12:09
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35360961)
I am only suggesting 1 or 2 stops between London and Birmingham and 1 or 2 on each of the branch lines to Leeds (in future maybe Edinburgh) and Manchester (in future maybe Glasgow)
and that makes a HS speed line not a high speed line ,how is that so hard to understand ?

danielf 13-01-2012 12:11
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35360961)
I am only suggesting 1 or 2 stops between London and Birmingham and 1 or 2 on each of the branch lines to Leeds (in future maybe Edinburgh) and Manchester (in future maybe Glasgow)
You'll be suggesting multiple airports around London next...

martyh 13-01-2012 12:13
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35361040)
You'll be suggesting multiple airports around London next...
with one giant one in the middle :D

danielf 13-01-2012 12:13
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35361043)
with one giant one in the middle :D
Where London used to be :D

martyh 13-01-2012 12:15
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35361044)
Where London used to be :D

ssshhh don't give him ideas ;)

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 12:18
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35361037)
and that makes a HS speed line not a high speed line ,how is that so hard to understand ?
A high speed line is definded as a line faster than 125 mph, this one goes up to 250 mph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 13:17 ----------

I am suggesting 1 airport for london to replace the 5 main London Airports (Luton, Gatwick, Heathrow, Stansted and Southend)

danielf 13-01-2012 12:19
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35361052)
A high speed line is definded as a line faster than 125 mph, this one goes up to 250 mph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail[COLOR="Silver"]
Which means it'll take a lot longer to slow down/get up to speed, thus making it more important to have few stops.

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 12:23
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35361061)
Which means it'll take a lot longer to slow down/get up to speed, thus making it more important to have few stops.
The less stops there are, the less people benifit!

martyh 13-01-2012 12:27
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35361063)
The less stops there are, the less people benifit!
well i give up ,anyone else care to join me at the wall

:banghead:

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 12:36
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35361064)
well i give up ,anyone else care to join me at the wall

:banghead:
For phase 1 (London to Birmingham), we could have Station around the Chiltern District area!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltern_(district)

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:32 ----------

For phase 2 (Birmingham to Leeds/Manchester) we could have statiosn at Stoke on Trent, East Midlands and Sheffield!

danielf 13-01-2012 12:36
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
They don't want it.

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 12:38
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35361075)
They don't want it.
Who does not want it?

---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:37 ----------

Information about plans for HS2 reach Scotland:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...-Scotland.html

danielf 13-01-2012 12:38
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
The chilterners.

Anyway, I'm out of here. You've made it quite clear there's no point in discussing anything with you.

martyh 13-01-2012 12:38
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35361070)
For phase 1 (London to Birmingham), we could have Station around the Chiltern District area!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltern_(district)

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:32 ----------

For phase 2 (Birmingham to Leeds/Manchester) we could have statiosn at Stoke on Trent, East Midlands and Sheffield!
just repeating yourself doesn't make it any more sensible

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 12:40
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35361080)
The chilterners.

Anyway, I'm out of here. You've made it quite clear there's no point in discussing anything with you.
Would they still objected if they had station nearby, that could be of benifit (London to Chilterns in 10 minutes)

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35361082)
just repeating yourself doesn't make it any more sensible
I was clarifying what I was saying about this matter!

Hugh 13-01-2012 13:21
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35361086)
Would they still objected if they had station nearby, that could be of benifit (London to Chilterns in 10 minutes)

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:39 ----------



I was clarifying what I was saying about this matter!
Couple of facts, which you will hopefully take note of.

a) The Chiltern Line is currently having a £250 million upgrade (started 2010, ends 2013), part of which is to reduce journey times.

b) HS2 is a high-speed link, not a short-distance commuter link

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 13:34
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35361132)
Couple of facts, which you will hopefully take note of.

a) The Chiltern Line is currently having a £250 million upgrade (started 2010, ends 2013), part of which is to reduce journey times.

b) HS2 is a high-speed link, not a short-distance commuter link
Well when it opens in 2026 it will effectively become a communiter line to Birmingham, London to Sutton Coldfield (via HS2 and local rail line) be less than 90 minutes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Coldfield

Hugh 13-01-2012 13:35
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Not if it has to keep stopping on the way....

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 13:38
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35361153)
Not if it has to keep stopping on the way....
Even they it would be less then 2 hours which is the length of some communiter journeys by Londoners!

Maggy 13-01-2012 13:38
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
I bet it frequently becomes as overcrowded as other mainstream train services with many being left to stand.:erm:

Hugh 13-01-2012 13:46
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35361162)
Even they it would be less then 2 hours which is the length of some communiter journeys by Londoners!
The present train takes just under two hours to get to Birmingham, and after the Chiltern Line upgrade will take an hour and a half.

Really, you do seem to be missing the point of HS2, which is to provide high speed links to Birmingham and beyond, not between London and Brum.

Alan Fry 13-01-2012 13:53
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35361179)
The present train takes just under two hours to get to Birmingham, and after the Chiltern Line upgrade will take an hour and a half.

Really, you do seem to be missing the point of HS2, which is to provide high speed links to Birmingham and beyond, not between London and Brum.
Do you mean 2 hours to Birmingham City centre, I mean less than 2 hours (or even 90 minutes) from Sutton Coldfield (a a suburb of Birmingham) to London City Centre (if the Chiltern Station is built), so HS2 still saves time (even by building a Chiltern Station)

danielf 13-01-2012 14:02
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35361163)
I bet it frequently becomes as overcrowded as other mainstream train services with many being left to stand.:erm:
I may be wrong here, but I thought most (if not all) High Speed rail lines operate with designated seating, so no more tickets are sold once all seats are taken.

Damien 13-01-2012 18:37
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35361204)
I may be wrong here, but I thought most (if not all) High Speed rail lines operate with designated seating, so no more tickets are sold once all seats are taken.
Tis how HS1 works.

Alan Fry 16-01-2012 12:06
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
What about reopening the Great Central Main Line/Woodhead Line and upgrading the Chiltern Main Line, or even Further upgrades to the WCML!

---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 ----------

What about the Uk Ultraspeen plan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Ultraspeed

Hugh 16-01-2012 13:01
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35361132)
Couple of facts, which you will hopefully take note of.

a) The Chiltern Line is currently having a £250 million upgrade (started 2010, ends 2013), part of which is to reduce journey times.

b) HS2 is a high-speed link, not a short-distance commuter link
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35363268)
What about reopening the Great Central Main Line/Woodhead Line and upgrading the Chiltern Main Line, or even Further upgrades to the WCML!

---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 ----------

What about the Uk Ultraspeen plan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Ultraspeed
You appear to be suffering from short-term memory loss, as I posted the above information* in reply to one of your previous posts just under two days ago....

*post #174, previous page

Alan Fry 16-01-2012 13:04
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35363323)
You appear to be suffering from short-term memory loss, as I posted the above information* in reply to one of your previous posts just under two days ago....

*post #174, previous page
I was talikng about further upgrading the Chiltern Mail Line beyond Evergreen 3

Hugh 16-01-2012 13:07
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
You didn't say that - are we supposed to be psychic?

Alan Fry 16-01-2012 13:14
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35363331)
You didn't say that - are we supposed to be psychic?
Sorry about that!

AndyCambs 16-01-2012 14:30
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35360925)
I would agree with that!
And all routes to London, not just the West Coast...

Alan Fry 17-01-2012 12:43
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyCambs (Post 35363402)
And all routes to London, not just the West Coast...
Agreed!

AndyCambs 17-01-2012 16:07
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
I think for years we have been promised things will get better. They need the investment. We have been promised longer trains and platforms, and more frequent trains. Now all I see is investment from London to Birmingham.
Thank heavens I don't commute anymore. £6.5k plus another £1.5k car parking isn't funny.

Osem 17-01-2012 19:51
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyCambs (Post 35364154)
I think for years we have been promised things will get better. They need the investment. We have been promised longer trains and platforms, and more frequent trains. Now all I see is investment from London to Birmingham.
Thank heavens I don't commute anymore. £6.5k plus another £1.5k car parking isn't funny.
Quite and it won't be cheaper on HS2.

Alan Fry 18-01-2012 19:28
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyCambs (Post 35364154)
I think for years we have been promised things will get better. They need the investment. We have been promised longer trains and platforms, and more frequent trains. Now all I see is investment from London to Birmingham.
Thank heavens I don't commute anymore. £6.5k plus another £1.5k car parking isn't funny.
They are planning improvements to other railways, just not as much as HS2

Jimmy-J 06-04-2012 14:07
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
I wonder where they'll be moved to?
Quote:
Up to 50,000 bodies will need to be exhumed to make way for the new high speed rail line from London to Birmingham, it has emerged.
Link

Arthurgray50@blu 06-04-2012 20:52
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
If l am not wrong (and l am sure members will tell me), Under a certain law, a graveyard cannot be touched by any means, unless 100 years has passed since the LAST body was buried.

This is what happened to a cemetery where my father is buried, and it caused uproar, when they started building on it. And my father was deceased 40 years ago. There was a long legal battle over it.

I believe that there is a legal bounded law on this, and cannot be changed

Sirius 06-04-2012 21:00
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu (Post 35410827)
If l am not wrong (and l am sure members will tell me), Under a certain law, a graveyard cannot be touched by any means, unless 100 years has passed since the LAST body was buried.

This is what happened to a cemetery where my father is buried, and it caused uproar, when they started building on it. And my father was deceased 40 years ago. There was a long legal battle over it.

I believe that there is a legal bounded law on this, and cannot be changed
They will just change the law if that is true. :rolleyes:

martyh 06-04-2012 21:16
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu (Post 35410827)
If l am not wrong (and l am sure members will tell me), Under a certain law, a graveyard cannot be touched by any means, unless 100 years has passed since the LAST body was buried.

This is what happened to a cemetery where my father is buried, and it caused uproar, when they started building on it. And my father was deceased 40 years ago. There was a long legal battle over it.

I believe that there is a legal bounded law on this, and cannot be changed
All depends arthur ,in london the time limit is 75yrs ,there where changes to the laws a few years ago where responsibility was transfered from the home office to the department of constitutional affairs .
http://www.york.ac.uk/chp/crg/crgcontext.htm

Arthurgray50@blu 06-04-2012 21:52
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Martyh, that is a very good point, I honestly think that it will be very hard to change the law on this, As this law has been like it for years, and l think it will go to the supreme court of England to change it, and there will be long legal battles to alter it. And by then the High speed link will be there.

I can never understand why they want to build another line, there is miles of lines that are unused, and some lines that just need adjusting.

beeman 07-04-2012 06:05
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu (Post 35410842)
Martyh, that is a very good point, I honestly think that it will be very hard to change the law on this, As this law has been like it for years, and l think it will go to the supreme court of England to change it, and there will be long legal battles to alter it. And by then the High speed link will be there.

I can never understand why they want to build another line, there is miles of lines that are unused, and some lines that just need adjusting.
there woulnt need to bee a change of law, All that would bee needed is a licence from the department of constitutional affairs

(from martyh's link)
Quote:
Once interred, human remains cannot be disturbed without a special licence. For well over a century, application had to be made to the Home Office. In 2006, responsibility was transferred – along with other burial legislative matters – to the Department for Constitutional Affairs. There has, however, been no change to the requirement to apply for a licence in cases where remains are disturbed, even if that disturbance is accidental. Licenses have never been made available for the purpose of reusing a site for burial, although there are many instances of licenses being issued for the removal of bodies from churchyards to facilitate building, road-widening and other developments.
As you can see there is even precedence for the removal of remains for permanent infrastructure projects (road widening and other developments). SO this will cause no issues for HS2 :)

Alan Fry 17-04-2012 09:26
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Thery could change the route to avoid the gravesites.

Anyway this reminds me of the first 2 episodes of Boss, the Mayor had to deal with a gravesite with Native American remains, which was near the Airport (the gravesite was in an area need to expand the airport)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boss_(TV_series)

joglynne 28-01-2013 17:31
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
I am bumping this thread as phase two of HS2, extending the route north of Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds has been announced to-day.

Policy paper.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ter-and-beyond


Here is a link to maps which cover the governments initial preferences for the routes the new link will take.

https://www.gov.uk/hs2-phase-two-ini...-to-manchester

... and an idea of how much time we will all save traveling in the future.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...ourney-1559969

Sirius 28-01-2013 17:34
Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joglynne (Post 35528747)
I am bumping this thread as phase two of HS2, extending the route north of Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds has been announced to-day.

Policy paper.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ter-and-beyond


Here is a link to maps which cover the governments initial preferences for the routes the new link will take.

https://www.gov.uk/hs2-phase-two-ini...-to-manchester

... and an idea of how much time we will all save traveling in the future.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...ourney-1559969
Personaly i would have liked the money spent on widening the motorways where needed. I never use the train because it costs so bloody much.


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