Cable Forum - 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

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Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35353263)

In all due respect when there is fog etc. people are probably going slower than 80mph due to the weather. Especially when there is ice. If there is carnage even going at 60mph you in trouble.

Why not use germany as an example of how dangerous it is?

The number of serious fog related accidents which occur would indicate that people aren't sufficiently careful when driving in such conditions whether it be speed, distance form other vehicles or just paying attention. It only takes one idiot on a motorway to create mayhem but I'd rather encounter an idiot in fog at 50 than 80 wouldn't you?

Here's your German example although there are other factors to consider in making comparisons between the motorways in different countires such as traffic volumes, road layouts, quality of maintenance, weather etc. etc.

http://www.etsc.eu/documents/Speed_Fact_Sheet_1.pdf

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Yes, mainly because driving at 80 in the fog is stupid, the speed limits are for dry clear weather.

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

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Originally Posted by G UK (Post 35353106)

Lets get one thing straight, the roads are dangerous places made more dangerous by idiots driving outside of one or more of, their skill/their vehicles capabilities/the conditions. On the back of that there are several points:

- Speed is a factor in 100% accidents in that, as has been pointed out, the slower you go the lesser the affects to the point that if nobody was moving there would not have been an accident. This is why any quote of speed is a factor in X% of accidents is a joke and just a fallback of lazy accident investigators/reporters. Excessive speed for the conditions is another matter but is not a fixed value and is very difficult to prove (driver/vehicle/road surface/environment etc) despite being noted down as the easy option in many cases where it was not the root cause.

- If the motorway speed limit was 60 we would be having the exact same argument with the same people about why we shouldn't raise it to 70. Taking the lowest common denominator for the standard of driving as many people state, we should have a maximum speed limit of 30 across the board but this would be seen as silly and going overboard due to the impact on peoples day to day lives and the economy.

- Having a blow out or other failure at 50, 60, 70 or 80+ isn't going to make a whole lot of difference to your average driver in most vehicles on the road today as people don't know what to do in such a situation anyway which will lead to loss of control of the vehicle. On a separated carriageway like a motorway all traffic should be flowing within 30mph or so of each other making any impact significantly less than 80mph into a brick wall. If people don't see a stationary object in front of them then they are either not looking ahead or are driving too quick for the conditions at which we come back to my second point and may as well lower all speed limits to 30 to make sure this worst case is survivable.

- Pedestrians should be a none issue in this discussion as they are banned on motorways and people on the hard shoulder are advised to get back behind the guard rail.

As background I have been in an accident caused by a blowout that nearly took my life (classic car, 70mph dual carriageway, no guard rails & trees) and therefore know the risks, I have been on track and taken my vehicles to their and my limits in various conditions. I know my limits, my vehicles limits, how to handle the car under adverse conditions such as certain failures and when control is not possible & I drive under the speed limit when required by conditions like ice and fog.

Several of you however would still paint me as some form of reckless idiot that wants to kill people because I believe some speed limits like those on the motorway could be safely raised.

Speed limits are a blunt force weapon that loses effectiveness as vehicles become more safe, and at speed where the difference between 70 and 80 is significantly less than that between 30 and 40. In my opinion the real answer for further increasing road safety is through Education. Education in vehicle handling in adverse conditions (learning to recognise where the limits are and what to do when you are past them e.g. Finland), reading the road ahead and general courtesy towards other road users.

I agree with you completely. And I also agree that it makes sense to raise speed limits to 80mph, but only on motorways with at least 3 lanes, and hard shoulders.

As you said the problem is the speed differential. So there needs to be at least two overtaking lanes to allow for the wider speed range from HGV's doing 60, and cars doing 80.

I have always thought it to be crazy that a dual carriageway A road has the same speed limit as a 3 or 4 lane motorway. Especially when you think that you can have farm traffic crossing the A road, or cyclists, and no hard shoulders in many places.

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:50 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35353123)

There you go Tim & Martyn, here's another crazy idiot..... :rolleyes:

Not at all. He is talking a lot of sense.

---------- Post added at 17:53 ---------- Previous post was at 17:51 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35353125)

As i pointed out above peoples skill set on the roads differs greatly so a compromise is reached between getting from A-B safely and quick enough to make the journey practical .Peoples own assessment of driving conditions cannot be relied on when they are late for work or any other appointment .There are a thousand things that can affect their judgement and lead them to assess the conditions incorrectly that's why we have limits and it is the utmost arrogance on the part of a driver to think he/she knows better and can somehow predict the future

Absolutely.....and that arrogance leads to over inflated self belief in ones own abilities, as we have seen in this forum.

---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:53 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35353139)

Brilliant, accurate, definitive, logical.

I certainly can't argue against such reasoned and well thought out point.

Well done!

Well you have been doing all the way through this thread......unless of course you think you are a superhuman driver, and it doesn't apply to you.

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

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Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35353328)

Not at all. He is talking a lot of sense.

you're priceless

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Well you have been doing all the way through this thread......unless of course you think you are a superhuman driver, and it doesn't apply to you.

turn on your sarcasm detector

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

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Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35353154)

I want to ban the car altogether because it kills at all speeds. are you with me?

Now you are just being stupid.....we can have an intelligent debate, but I'm not going to debate anything with someone who just comes out with stupid statement to cause an argument.....that is known as trolling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35353154)

Ok, who taught the first person that started the teaching of the rest?

As with most traning, it has been developed and improved over many years, mainly learning from mistakes that have been made previously (often with fatalities).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35353154)

was it just a common sense approach put into action?
if that 'policeman' was able to teach others then there has to be others that are capable of fitting the grade without having to get the training.

As you have never done the training, then you can't possibly comment. But I can tell you that it isn't just a case of using common sense. There is a lot more to it than that. And it is the sort of course that you do really need to go on to understand. Although it is very difficult to describe to someone who has no experience of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35353154)

I was watching someone play a game on the Xbox the other day. Halo3 I think it was. he had to go through training.
"look up.. good" "look down..excellent. I think you're ready"

Well if you were stuck at that level, then you wouldn't have even passed your driving test. And certainly wouldn't be on the highest level of driving course for public roads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35353154)

We'll just call it a piece of paper then for arguments sake.

No we won't, because it isn't. It's one of those things that if you don't keep your competence up, then you will lose it, and be taken off driving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35353154)

Surely you mean trained.

No I mean tested. Anyone can do a training course, but not anyone can reach the required level, and then maintain it.

Remember these courses are designed to stop you killing either yourself or another member of the public, when you are in an extremely dangerous situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35353154)

Ok, so it doesn't look silly. both sides can have the blue ones.

You completely miss the point....it's not just about blue lights or sirens. It's about a combination of driving skills, progressive driving skills, vehicle handling skills, observation skills, combined with an audible and visual warning to other road users.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35353154)

Of course it is. it's a big difference.
just the saame as it would be a big difference if it was 40 compared to 30.

Have you ever seen the state of a car or motorcycle that was travelling at 100mph+ when it drove into the back of a HGV doing 50 or 60mph? It's the same as driving into a brick wall at over 50mph. Do you have any idea what injuries that causes?

As other people keep repeating, the wider the speed differential, the greater the impact, and the less the reaction time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35353154)

Compared to what, 80?
so when does speed become dangerous then. you've lost me.

SPEED DIFFERENTIAL.....as we keep saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35353154)

And please don't say anything about certificates, blue flashing lights, sirens or training.

Why not? you did!!!

---------- Post added at 18:21 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35353162)

There's a very big difference between believing and arguing that limits could/should be raised and ignoring the current legal limits on the basis that it suits. I'd be all for more driver education and better enforcement of both reckless speeding and other aspects of damgerous driving but until that happens and those speeders who tailgate and try to intimidate other drivers out of their way are forced off the roads one way or another, higher speed limits arern't what's required. That prospect may annoy those who feel they're the better drivers amongst us but I'm afraid it's a price we all have to pay for using public roads upon which there are drivers of varying abilities/attitudes and a wide range of vehicles some of which are far better/safer/better maintained than others. Adjusting national limits upwards to suit those who believe they're la creme de la creme and their vehicles simply puts everyone else at extra risk and I have to say that, when it comes to driving, some folks I have met not only have a very inflated opinion of their own abilities but a correspondingly low opinion of everyone else's.

Are you a traffic police officer by any chance??

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35353328)

Well you have been doing all the way through this thread......unless of course you think you are a superhuman driver, and it doesn't apply to you.

there is a useful funtion to the left called "BS detector/ignore button" very handy for weeding out numpties;)

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35353240)

IMHO just because somebody has a bit of paper that say they have done advanced driving doesn't mean thay are better than somebody who hasn't.

I looked into doing this but the cost to do it and the price my car insurance would fall was a joke.

The advanced driving course teaches defensive driving, and awareness. This should make you a safer and more curtious driver, not a more skilled driver, but in theory still better than those who haven't had the training.

The course we were talking about wasn't anything to do with the advanced driving test, it is way above that level. It was aimed at Pierre who thinks he has superhuman driving skills. So I asked if he was trained to drive safely at high speeds, as emergency service drivers are (although they still wouldn't be able to do this safely without means to warn other road users).

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:27 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35353263)

Fog is an excellent example. If we all drove at a speed suitable for the road conditions, then we should all be doing the same speed, and a safe stopping distance apart.

Accidents usually happen in fog when one person is driving at a safe speed for the conditions, and another is driving far too fast, and therefore drives into the back of the car in front.

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:34 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35353335)

you're priceless

turn on your sarcasm detector

It's obvious that you didn't understand their post. And that because you think you are invincible, and a far better driver than anyone else on the road, then you didn't even think the post applied to you.

You don't drive a BMW or an Audi by any chance?

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

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Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35353343)

It was aimed at Pierre who thinks he has superhuman driving skills

Please quote anywhere in this thread where I have stated this?

Please?

Quote:

It's obvious that you didn't understand their post.

on the contrary it is you that seems to be changing their mind which ever way the wind blows

Quote:

And that because you think you are invincible,

Again please direct me to the post where I stated this.

Quote:

and a far better driver than anyone else on the road,

Again please direct me to the post where I stated this

Quote:

You don't drive a BMW or an Audi by any chance?

No, do you?

I'm my own worst enemy, I shouldn't have come back to this thread, but when people name you directly, I have no choice.

Tim, if your discussion technique involves making up comments other users are supposed to have said, Inventing fictional scenarios that don't apply, introducing straw man points and just being a plane imbecile.

Then congratulations, you're very good at it.

goodnight.

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35353349)

on the contrary it is you that seems to be changing their mind which ever way the wind blows.

I had noticed.

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Just stop trolling, both of you. It's getting boring now.

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35353474)

Just stop trolling, both of you. It's getting boring now.

No trolling here sir,

I refer you back to my previous post.

Feel free to report any of my posts to a moderator

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35353474)

Just stop trolling, both of you. It's getting boring now.

I don't troll.
I think you're just getting confused with your conflicting opinions :)

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35353343)

So I asked if he was trained to drive safely at high speeds, as emergency service drivers are (although they still wouldn't be able to do this safely without means to warn other road users).

I should point out there are quite a few reasons when the Police and other agencies can, and do, drive at well in excess of the speed limits without warning equipment in activation.

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35353474)

Just stop trolling, both of you. It's getting boring now.

The only thing getting boring around here is you stamping all over the place with your fingers in your ears and refusing to listen to any voice bar your own.

Anyone who has been around here any length of time and has bothered to actually read what other posters have to say can see that Pierre and Gary are simply posting their views. What they are saying, and the way they are saying it, is entirely consistent with their usual forum behaviour.

If you really can't tolerate that, may I suggest you make use of the forum ignore feature.

Either way, please stop accusing people of trolling. It's really very unhelpful.

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 35353578)

I should point out there are quite a few reasons when the Police and other agencies can, and do, drive at well in excess of the speed limits without warning equipment in activation.

Yes I know that, but it isn't as safe to do so, and they have to risk assess it first. Also if they are involved in an accident, they will have to be able to give a very convincing reason, as to why they weren't using them.

---------- Post added at 12:15 ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35353589)

The only thing getting boring around here is you stamping all over the place with your fingers in your ears and refusing to listen to any voice bar your own.

Anyone who has been around here any length of time and has bothered to actually read what other posters have to say can see that Pierre and Gary are simply posting their views. What they are saying, and the way they are saying it, is entirely consistent with their usual forum behaviour.

If you really can't tolerate that, may I suggest you make use of the forum ignore feature.

Either way, please stop accusing people of trolling. It's really very unhelpful.

Yes I know.

However I would also appreciate it isf you didn't start being insulting, by saying that I don't listen to other views. I do listen, but there are some people in these forums who will say "black is white" just to argue.

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Don't you see the irony in stating someone is insulting you if they say you don't listen to other views.....;)

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

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Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35353600)

Don't you see the irony in stating someone is insulting you if they say you don't listen to other views.....;)

It's nothing to do with going against my views. I'm quite happy to debate. However there are people in many forums who will just argue in order to wind people up. So they will come out with extremely contoversial views. Then there are the people (like yourself), who like to twist peoples words around to try and make them mean something completely different. These methods aren't friendly debating, they are deliberately designed to wind people up.

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

And there is being dogmatic and obstreperous, and not recognising it....

One of the point of forums is for people of differing views to discuss things, hopefully being informed by the different views - none of us have all the answers, and whilst I agree with you on a number of occasions, I have to admit your tone of posting can be somewhat aggressive (you may regard this as being passionate, but perception is all).

For instance, you constantly state that I twist your words - I prefer to think I am pointing out your inconsistencies (but, as I said above, perception is all).

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35353613)

And there is being dogmatic and obstreperous, and not recognising it....

One of the point of forums is for people of differing views to discuss things, hopefully being informed by the different views - none of us have all the answers, and whilst I agree with you on a number of occasions, I have to admit your tone of posting can be somewhat aggressive (you may regard this as being passionate, but perception is all).

For instance, you constantly state that I twist your words - I prefer to think I am pointing out your inconsistencies (but, as I said above, perception is all).

I am passionate about people not being ignorant enough to put other peoples lives at risk. After all I have to deal with the results. And that was what the discussion is about....end of story!!!!

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Yeah fools..

Tim said end of, so that's it, no more to see here, move along.. :rolleyes:

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfair (Post 35353625)

Yeah fools..

Tim said end of, so that's it, no more to see here, move along.. :rolleyes:

Actually I was trying to stop the subject going off topic!!

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35353618)

After all I have to deal with the results.

I thought that you sold beds :confused: Or am I confusing you with someone else (If I am then sorry)

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilincarnate (Post 35353724)

I thought that you sold beds :confused: Or am I confusing you with someone else (If I am then sorry)

He does state, in another thread, that the bed retail trade is his area of "expertise".

Perhaps he means his demand goes up for supplying hospitals or something?

Re: 80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35353630)

Actually I was trying to stop the subject going off topic!!

Good point.

Guys: The topic of the thread is whether raising the speed limit to 80 would increase deaths by 20%. Not the current job of any member. Get back on topic.