Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I don't have a misguided view of the BBC at all. I know they don't always get things right, but you appear to be posting your own point of view as fact.

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:24 ----------

They work a bank holiday, they are entitled to extra payment. Not the triple time they are asking for.

You appear to be siding with the strikers, but if LU agree to this, prices (for the commuters) will go up. You day the commuters don't complain, but they do. The problem most commuters have is that they don't have a choice but to use the tube.

You are complaining that businesses put up their own prices, but your own wages are frozen, yet you are asking millions of commuters to put up with the same situation, because you think the strikers are right to act in their own interests.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

that doesnt make it ok.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

doesn't make what ok ?:confused:

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

doesnt make it ok to not pay extra for working bank holidays just because not every company does that.

I have worked for a company before where overtime not only was not paid extra but was compulsary, I have never seenn so many unhappy workers in one place and there is no doubt productivity was effected by work morale there.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

My husband as a public servant is working today as MOD security..A public holiday but he will not get a day extra off in lieu.He worked the last two Christmas as well and got no time off in lieu either.It just happened to be his turn on the roster.It being a leap year next year he will repeat this year's roster again..Perhaps in 1213 we might get the whole of Christmas as a holiday.

And as for teachers well every public holiday is shovelled into the school holidays apart from May Day or Whitsun depending on when Easter falls.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

They want triple pay plus a day off in lieu. I don't see why they should be entitled to that, especially considering what the already earn and what they already have.

I think the drivers and unions are at fault. Tube drivers already have what many consider to be an obscenely high salary, and yet they want even more money *and* a day off in lieu if they have to work a bank holiday.

People do complain when prices are put up.

Perhaps you should consider becoming a Tube driver then, Arthur. You'll get a massive salary, loads of holiday, and get to hold London to ransom.

No sympathy from me either.

The sooner the London Underground moves to fully automatic driverless trains the better IMO.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Maybe not but the tube drivers already get paid extra they just want more ,totally out of proportion to the job skill .Whilst i take on board your point about others not getting extra you have to consider that most employers have flexi time where days of in the week are common place in return for working weekends and bank holidays

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

The recently agreed pay deal for tube drivers includes rotas/shifts, which include bank holiday working.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

They will still need to be staffed!

---------- Post added at 17:26 ---------- Previous post was at 17:23 ----------

You know what, you are falling into the right-wingers trap, if we all have stong unions then we we will have the benifits of Tube Drivers, go and john a union and get striking!!!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Yes, because it worked so well last time ... ;)

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

That was caused manily by high inflation which was caused by high oil prices!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Oh, right. So as long as there's not an excessively high oil price, unsustainable pay demands are ok. That makes sense.

Go right ahead, by the way. The frothing loony left were the best advertisement possible for the medicine of Thatcherism in 1979. With any luck there will be just as much short-sighted activism over the next 3 years to guarantee us a 100% Tory government in 2015.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

By advocating union militancy you are indeed falling into the right-wingers' trap. Blatantly politically motivated or totally unreasonable strikes simply strengthen public support for stronger legislation, which isn't really required but could do with being tidied up.

One really big part that could do with tidying up is the ability by unions to toss previous agreements out of the window and strike to change them.

You also forgot that to get striking requires a fairly closed shop or a certain barrier to being replaced which for many doesn't exist. People who strike themselves stupid simply make themselves unemployed, either through forcing their employer to fold or to downsize and make them redundant.

The alternative is of course that people do indeed get their pay rises, and the costs of everything go up to cover those pay rises, then people demand more pay rises to cover the cost of their wage inflation, etc, etc.

---------- Post added at 20:44 ---------- Previous post was at 20:43 ----------

By people far more easily replaced than tube drivers. Excellent news for everyone bar the tube drivers, and given there are not many of them and millions of people they inconvenience and businesses they cost millions every time they strike you'll have to forgive me for not caring less about their fate. They've made the rod for their own backs with their wage demands which have made the numbers for replacing them with automatic systems add up all the more quickly.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Yes, but by "train attendants", rather than by people who "earn" more than £50k per year.


If there is a move towards driverless trains, the drivers and the unions have only themselves to blame, due to their repeated striking and demanding outrageous wages and so on.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Sounds like my plan of retraining as a tube driver is a no go...

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Mind...... the gap.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Do you mean Ms Thatcher the PM, the one who finished the job (stated since 1945) of killing British Industry, Sending the all but the home counties to the dole, increased unemployment, aidied the Rise of Murdoch, Made bus and Rail serives worse and with the help of other right wingers (around the world in the 80s) create a economic system the enriched the 1% and cause recessions in the early 80s, late 80s/early 90s, Early 2000s and late 2000s (not help by the fact the governments both left and right wing who kept this failed system going), along with destroying opportunities for all but the very richest!

If there is one thing good about her is that she is a strong leader (unlike Major and Cameron)!

---------- Post added at 14:31 ---------- Previous post was at 14:27 ----------

I would disagree with you point about automatic trains, for example the Trains on the Victoria Line, Central Line, Jubilee Line have Automatic train operation and if there is one person on board, like on the DLR, as long as they are Unionised, they can (and they have) still strike

Also we need to change unions laws in favor of the workers and unions

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Now you are just being stupid!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Says the person who blames the latest economic woes on a leader who hasn't been in power for almost 20 years. :rolleyes:

I'm no expert but I think there were recessions before 1980.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Nothing a change to the law to allow unattended trains won't fix.

No we really don't need to change union laws to favour workers and unions, the point of the laws is to provide appropriate protections and a fair platform for both not to favour anyone.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I am not just blaming Lady Thatcher for this mess alone, but Blair, Brown and pretty much all our Governments since 1945, if fact most of our economic problems originate from the fact we have not adapted well since the end of the British Empire

---------- Post added at 19:20 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------

So what will happen if a train crashes or bombed, it clear the laws against unions and for business is bad for employees and good for the rich.

To put it this way, who is going to defend you when you wage or pension is cut, you are made redundant or are unfairly sacked? Any ideas!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Again another big statement by you Alan.:rolleyes:

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Excellent conflation - you seem to be stating that only by allowing unions to make (imho) extremely unreasonable demands will they also be able to defend workers who are being treated unfairly.

You are Bob Crow, and I claim my five pounds....:D

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

If a train crashes or is bombed it can be reached extremely quickly from outside. A driver isn't the panacea of care for the people on the train and if it crashes the chances are the driver is going to be the first victim anyway.

The laws in the UK regarding strikes and unions are far from the strictest in Europe however your posts here quite clearly give your viewpoint and put into context why you feel this way. Above you noted that the law should favour unions and employees which says all that needs to be said.

Regarding the other issues - if my wage is cut I get another job, if my pension is cut I get another job, if I'm made redundant I'm made redundant so must get another job, if I'm unfairly sacked I can take action due to the unfair dismissal process within the law. I'm not entitled to anything from my employer outside of their contractual obligations to me, it's a business arrangement, if the arrangement isn't to my satisfaction it's time to end it.

It's a somewhat different issue with the tube drivers obviously, they know they haven't a hope of getting a job with anywhere near the pay and conditions they have at the moment given their skill levels.

I have never 'done' unions. I do fine, but then I rely on myself to prove my value to employers and regard myself as an asset that provides value to my employer and that they should in return appropriately value me. As soon as I think they don't I go elsewhere.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

just as a comparison ,Tyne and Wear metro train drivers earn a shade over £30k .The only qualifications they need are basic GCSE's .So mainline drivers will earn more and as per this thread LU drivers even more ,now as far as i know any profession paying this sort of wage needs a good degree or at the very least a professional qualification .I'm sure that professionals such as Ignitionet and others on this forum will feel somewhat agreived knowing that a basic GCSE will get you a job worth 50k when they spent years at colledge/university paying £1,000's to get a qualification that may not pay as much as a train driver

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Too right. I wanted to drive trains as a kid... if only I had followed that dream, lol.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Exactly! And if I had known that tube drivers would get this sort of wage I needn't have arsed about getting the relevant teaching qualifications..

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Although it's worth noting that the law requires that any train that goes to any stations that are underground has staff onboard. Essentially to manage the passengers in the event of an emergency. It doesn't, however, require a driver..

The government could change the law so that Union membership is banned for tube drivers though. It could be argued that any public transport drivers are important for the economy..

---------- Post added at 01:09 ---------- Previous post was at 00:51 ----------

It's actually rather disheartening to realise I earn less than the member of staff aboard my DLR train in the morning, yet I have a degree and he (or she) doesn't.

On the plus side, I have a more interesting job.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Oh I think I could cope with a boring job for the wages tube drivers receive.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

So, if you didn't think that your employer "appropriately valued" you you would simply "go elsewhere" by withdrawing your goodwill and leaving their employ rather than try to negotiate your worth?

Ironically that makes you considerably more militant than those union members whose you are trying to berate in this thread.

Clearly your stated position somewhat undermines your argument vis a vis the supposed selfish actions / industrial action / negotiations by tube drivers in relation to their job security / pay / perceived worth.

Marty, Stuart & Maggy - you appear to be venting angst on the basis that you feel somehow hard done by because according to yourselves there are no tube drivers who have degrees / comparable degrees or that degrees obtained by others are undervalued by comparison. Where have you got this information from?

Take a leaf from Iggy's book and act on a self centred basis by withdrawing your labour with no consideration for anyone else or, alternatively, join a union and negotiate - and if needs be strike - to get what you think you're worth.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Actually, I said almost the same. I have to admit, I didn't mean to imply that no tube drivers have degrees. Some possibly do. However, I'd wager the bulk of them don't..

Driver less trains are entirely the way forward. And are safe! I was watching a documentary on Singapore metro system.

It's so advanced that all the trains sit in the depot at the beginning of the day. No driver or person required to operate them..

The signaller clicks a button all the interior cabin lighting lights up and train drives itself to get cleaned, then heads straight out onto the track ready for morning service.

Then at the end of the day if the train is due for maintenance without being told it will drive itself to the maintenance depot for servicing, same if it develops a fault train will terminate at next station then drive itself to the maintenance depot, and then another train comes out to replace it. Requires no attendants, no drivers as it is all automated far more advanced than the dlr even.. At night they even have trains that come out to clean the tunnels. Anything requiring manual intervention is done by the signallers

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I too also find it bemusing why people think that because they have a degree, they should automatically be on a certain pay level above , so called, unskilled workers.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I do not see anything in my post indicating that this would be a first course of action, I described it as a business arrangement which of course runs both ways and involves appropriate negotiation.

Not really. I don't threaten to leave nor withdraw my labour unless I get what I want. I don't hold anyone to ransom, I simply do what I do with every other business arrangement, keep it to my satisfaction or find an alternative one.

I don't work for the sake of 'goodwill' I work for pounds sterling.

You seem to suggest I have some obligation to stay with an employer? I'm amused that you offer joining a union and if needs be striking as an alternative to acting on a self centred basis. One is a single person's actions, that person has a notice period and can be replaced with someone who is potentially more productive and a better fit as they'll be happier, yes it's inconvenient. The other is an entire group who can, at a vote, withdraw their labour whenever it causes maximum harm to the employer on relatively little notice and cannot be replaced. Both are, of course, self-centred, however I would question their relative impact on the employer and who has 'no consideration for anyone else'.

I would hardly equate threatening to withdraw labour if not receiving what is demanded with changing jobs for a better deal. Surely that's just being a participant in the labour market? What's so wrong or militant about that? :confused:

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

No I'm more peeved by the idea sold to me and my children that a good job with a good wage was possible only with decent qualifications.But when people with little or no formal education earn fantastic wages I get really peeved especially for my daughter who found her first degree could get her no job and so has had to retrain and get a further degree to find that even now there will be no decent remuneration even though she does now have a job.

I guess though that having a job is possibly the best outcome...Pity the 7 years of study haven't brought about a vast financial difference in her income. So yes I annoyed when people who have a decent income in comparison to the rest of society think nothing of inconveniencing the public as frequently as the tube drivers do.

Oh and I very much doubt that there are many degree holders among the tube drivers because that would entail some time devoted to studying at least 3 years minimum.Of course there would be opportunities through OU and they are earning the necessary dosh to pay for the fees.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

https://nextstep.direct.gov.uk/Plann...ges/Entry.aspx

http://www.traindrivertrainee.com/Tr...onditions.html

Whilst i do not have a degree (i am self employed) i can understand why people who have invested a large amount of money getting degrees in order to advance their careers and earn a higher wage .I daresay that some train drivers may have a degree but dropped out of their initial chosen career path once they realised their degree wasn't worth as much as a train drivers certificate

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Life choices folks, we all make them.

Never assume anything about others.

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

In your attempt to defend your own rights you have illustrated the tube workers points perfectly.

They, like you, are also entititled to negotiate their perceived value.

The difference being, of course, they dont whinge about your right to negotiate your negotiated / contracted / legal employment rights on public forums because they somehow feel offended or potentially inconvenienced by certain actions which that might involve.

---------- Post added at 11:06 ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 ----------

Does having a degree bar people from being self employed? No.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I didn't say it did

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Indeed,

I'm always interested as to what degrees these graduates that can't get jobs have? And at what level.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

We appear to going a little "off track*" here.

I have no issues people being paid a fair day's pay for a fare* day's work, but imho the RMT is weaselling, not negotiating - they had recently signed a new "no strike" deal in return for a handsome settlement, then a couple of months later found what they thought was a loophole.

Does anyone actually think that three times basic plus a day off in lieu is "reasonable"?




*arf arf

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Hugh its ASLEF in dipute this time not the RMT amazingly.;)

And no i think it not reasonable double time and a day in lieu is ample for the ASLEF drivers.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I know Marty, but you inferred that your being self employed was directly related to you not having a degree. I was merely pointing out that there are many, many people who have degrees who are self employed.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

:(

<my bad>

However, these sort of claims, again imho, play into the hands of those who wish to be "Union Bashers".

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

:D:D

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

That wasn't my intention .I mentioned that because ,being self employed ,i have made a not inconciderable investment in my chosen field and also feel that suffient remuneration is required to make that investment worth while as with people who have spent years doing degrees

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

My perceived value is one set by the job market and legitimately dependent on the supply of my skills and their value. It's nothing to do with any perception of my own personal value. I don't pick a figure out of thin air, I base it around advertised salaries.

The actual value of train drivers is perhaps a different story given the extremely high supply of people who are potentially capable and willing to do the job.

I don't regard this as reasonable negotiation but blackmail. I have no issues whatsoever with unions preserving the rights their workers have and ensuring that employers stick to agreements, it's a quite different matter demanding pay and benefits well above those that the market would suggest are appropriate under threat of strike action.

It's a remarkably cynical move in contravention of standing agreements to make the demands they did and the level of action is entirely disproportionate.

At the end of the day they are free to go elsewhere if they feel so hard done by, although of course them getting 45k, a relatively generous pension, such a short working week and such a huge amount of time off is a somewhat different matter.

We will evidently agree to disagree on this. I should also mention that I'm free to whinge on this or any other subject as I see fit and of course train drivers don't whinge about me, they know a good deal when they see one and aren't likely to complain when their unions can hold the largest city in Europe and one of only two A++ cities in the world to ransom at a whim.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

They have negotiated legal rights as do you.

Live with it.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I think the real issue is why do the employers keep agreeing to these ridiculous pay agreements?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Because the tube drivers have leverage.

The capital grinds to a halt without the tube

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Is this a sore point Mr A? You seem awfully aggressive today.

Per the above I can complain about anything I see fit to anywhere I see fit to so long as the host allows it. I resent paying higher tube fares so that tube drivers can get above inflation pay rises and absurd benefits by threatening to bring London to a standstill while most others see limited wage rises.

I complain about it elsewhere, did you want me to link you to those other places I've commented so that you can complain about my complaining there too?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

It's not a "sore point" at all. I'm simply pointing out that they, like you, have a legal right to negotiate their terms of employment. You appear to find it somewhat of a sore point.

Not at all, indeed per your irrational self centred rantings below it appears to be you who feels inclined to be awfully aggressive today.

I'm sorry your obviously self centered sensibilities appear to have been offended. Such is life. That said, bully for you for being offended on behalf of the entire population of London.

No thanks, I'm beyond such childish endeavours (and I'm disappointed in your childish "throw the toys out of the pram" approach).

If you want to spend your life whining to all and sundry about others exercising their legal rights then knock yourself out. You'll find with maturity it inevitably becomes a very lonely furrow to plough.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I am not Bob Crow, for example he is anti-EU, I am pro-EU!

And What do you define as extremely unreasonable demands, Af far as I know, Tube Drivers and Public sector wokers are not demanding 7 figure wages or rolls-royces as company cars, not even free Iphones!

---------- Post added at 09:42 ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 ----------

What if the train is underground, remember time is important, it is better if there is someone on trains then it is better, if the law changes then the railways and tube will become a muggers paradise!

The trouble is that there are no decent jobs that pay decent salaries or pensions, if fact there are noty many jobs out there anyway and you know what is really band, is that The wealthy are still doing well, they still have high wages and high pensions, deispite that fact they cause the current mess they are in

---------- Post added at 09:44 ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 ----------

They can still do wildcat strikes, and anyway you don't need to ban unions to ban strikes, take the police for example!

---------- Post added at 09:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

Well said, If onyl more people shared you view point!

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------

Don't blame the unions blame the business and political elite for all this, But I understand what you mean!

---------- Post added at 09:49 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

Maybe your daughter should join a union

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

You have just crossed a line...Not everyone CAN join a union

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Are you sure that ther is a high supply of people that want to be tube drivers, I mean it is not this best of jobs (I mean the actual work you have to do) and anyway, you do not have to use public transport!

---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 ----------


Can you expand on that?

---------- Post added at 09:56 ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 ----------

Because Tube drives have stong unions, if more people were members of strong unions then we would be all better off!

---------- Post added at 09:56 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

For goodness sake, join a union to get better pay and conditions!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Which is better - a driver sat in his cab who is unable to do anything but call for assistance on a radio or other communication system if there is a reported passenger incident, or if the train is automated, a member of staff who can be mobile for the entire train length and able to both patrol and respond to incidents? Since trains are currently one person operated, I suspect the latter could be of more benefit to passengers?

Underground staff currently enjoy quite a good salary package. That is due to their overall strength of numbers and that many jobs, especially those of drivers, do take some time to become properly skilled. Whilst many of us would think it perhaps easy to drive a train, it is not that easy for an employer to "grab someone off the street" to replace other staff. Thus the unions do have a relative stranglehold. One does have to reflect that some of their shift patterns can become antisocial, and that first and last train type roles may make getting to or from work difficult.

It does appear to me that the relative salary level is already too high relative to other jobs. The tube driver is a skilled person, even if that skill isn't easily transferable to another job. That is the same for many people. It is wrong to argue that those, who include me, who have degrees and other professions, are automatically entitled to better salaries. I can only earn what I do based on what the public are prepared to pay for my services, and currently that isn't much, despite the fact that as a professional I effectively have a trade union, or more correctly a professional body who are supposedly promoting my profession.

This shouldn't be about whether someone get's triple pay or whatever time off benefits for working on a certain day. The real principle here seems to be that a deal was negotiated and agreed a few years ago to include bank holiday working, and now a union it trying to turn it's back on that and so far seem to be succeeding.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I believe in unions but not in the unions that hold the rest of the country to ransom particularly on public holidays on a regular basis..

It should be an EQUAL relationship between employer and employee Not an exercise in blackmail from either side.

And there are not unions in every workplace especially small private retail or franchised retailers such as Specsavers.

My daughter retrained as a dispensing optician at the cost of the small franchised Specsavers firm who, when she was using their services and heard her story, offered her a job and the chance to obtain further qualifications.There is no union and frankly if there were it would break the finances of the business if the employees were forever on strike to get better wages.

I can just see what customers would do if denied access to getting new glasses..they would just walk up the road to another outlet or to another independent opticians

Not something that tube users can easily do.The only alternative is to drive,catch an already overcrowded bus or walk.The first is no longer economically viable because of parking costs and Charges and the last is impractical after a day spent on your feet serving customers..In a tube strike the middle option strains an already stretched service.

The line you Alan Fry crossed is the one that arrogantly assumes that only you have the answers about a persons situation when you have no idea what that situation really is and you have the temerity to offer advice that just won't fly..Just like Mary Antoinette.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

So, are you saying...she shouldn't have gone to specsavers?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I feel that Unions to try and expand their membership to the Private sector, especaly businesses like Specsavers, I head the they do provade sick pay and they are based in the Channel islands so they avoid paying tax, It this what Britain has come to! The sooner all opticians of Spacsavers, Dollond & Aitchison (D&A), Boots Opticians and Vision Express and other are unionised the better, Free Market Capialism has failed again and again and all it has done is make the rich richer and the rest of us worse off and anohter thing, if spacsavers were unionised then it make its employees better off.

And another thing, If you want to avoid strikes on the tube, vote for someone who is mork likly to give in and be co-operative with the unions than someone who is not!

---------- Post added at 12:35 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

Just found out, the owners of Specsavers are worth over £1 Billion, also The owner of Dollond & Aitchison (D&A) and Boots Opticians avoid paying tax by basing themselfs in Swizerland! Now do you see my point!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Perkins

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Excellent - that worked so well for Jim Callaghan, didn't it?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Just where are you going to find all this money so everyone can earn £55,000 a year. Are you willing to pay £500 for a eye test or £1000 for a Car service.

J

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

It did not work for him because of high inflation (caused by high oil prices), and the decline of industry and the economy and the effect of the end of the British Empire and the rise of the USA!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Did you read the bit about the Franchise? You realise that Franchises are actually licences to use the name, logos and various other things of a larger business and are often owned by small businesses? Small businesses who have no access to the finances and facilities of the company. As such, while the owners of specsavers may have over £1billion in assets, the franchisees won't have access to that.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Well I feel that the at least afford sick pay!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

You keep saying that - are you stating that the Specsavers Franchisees don't pay Sick Pay?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I can't see anyone else but Alan talking about sick pay.

Back to the subject..

Unions do, IMO, have a place, if, and only if, they are willing to co-operate with the management to provide better working conditions for the workers. If the company is to stay solvent, the Unions need to resist the temptation to make outrageous demands. While TFL is in no danger of ever being insolvent, excessive demands from the unions could drive fares up past the point where companies consider it feasible to trade in London.

Let me explain that a little clearer. If people have to get the tube to work and the fares go up, they are going to want their wages to go up to compensate. If this happens too much, the companies may realise it's cheaper to employ people elsewhere to do the same jobs.

You can argue that it's only a problem for London. To some extent, you'd be right. However, London does contribute an awful lot of money to the economy.

Finally, excessive pay and holiday demands won't benefit the tube drivers, in the long run. TFL already have installed systems that could be used to enable driverless trains on a couple of lines. You can bet they are weighing up the pros and cons of upgrading the other lines, and continued striking by the tube drivers is only going to push them toward doing that.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I have a friend who works there who told me about this

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Precisely!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

and that's what most of it is assets ,mostly in the form of shares from the franchisees buisness ........not that this has anything to do with tube driver strikes so i don't see why Alan thinks it's relavent

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Are they new there?

A lot of retail companies only pay SSP in the first six months?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Yes there is a very high supply of people who want to be tube drivers. The waiting list to train is between 18 months and 2 years. Could be higher still now.

People not having to use public transport in London is a stupid and inane comment, for many there is absolutely no choice, and for many further people there's no viable choice.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

It's part of his telling me that everyone can join a union and my response that they can't because small business would go out of business if they had committed trade unions constantly striking..quoting my daughters specific case with SpecSavers because they don't have a monopoly on sales of glasses unlike the tube service has a large percentage of London transport.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Yes, of course, because so many businesses call their employess out on strike, it must be their fault. :dozey:

You mean vote for the person most likely to give in to blackmail, yeah, that sounds like a great plan. :rolleyes:

Yes, we could all look forward to the many multiple strikes [& the chaos they cause] followed by the massive service & goods price increases due to the increased business costs.

Presumably to cover all the extra money you will need to pay for the massive price increases.

What planet was this all on again ?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

this one, presumably:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...012/01/109.jpg

:erm:

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I don't work in Central London, but have done in the past, so I know what it's like.

Put simply, the tube is the *only* option available to a lot of people when they go to work.

Take, for example, my old journey. I used to work in Baker Street. I live near Bromley. Believe me when I say there is no way to travel from Bromley to Baker Street in an hour or less (at Rush Hour) without using the Tube.

A lot of London has the same problem. The Tube drivers know this, and take advantage, which is precisely why they should not be allowed to strike.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I'd be interested if you could even find out how to apply, the application system used to be quite straight forward but now even finding out how to get a form seems a major chore, even for those that work there and last time I looked the only adverts were for graduates or apprentices, neither of which involved driving a train.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

A big part of the current queue is other LU employees, might not be any need to advertise if they've 2 years of waiting list.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

If i remember rightly TFL DOSE NOT hire tube drivers from outside. All appointments for tube drivers come from within (ie station staff). So you will need to apply for a position on the platforms first. once there you can apply for the driver training program :)

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

What I am saying is that Speacsavers can offord better pay and conditions!

---------- Post added at 09:57 ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 ----------

The extra money would come from the rich who would have less billions to spend with, It is not suprising that there are many Occupy Protests in the world!

There does not need to be many strikes, give in to unions demands and the very rich would have to make do with less billions in their swiss bank accounts!

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------

For godness sake, This was not caused just by Trade Unions but by inflations which caused workers to demand high wages, looked what happend when we weaken the power of trades unions, the rich got much richer and the rest have not at all or in some cases became poorer, and that just the start!

---------- Post added at 10:03 ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 ----------

I understand what you mean, but I did not vote for a mayor who is more interested in fighting Bob Crowe than trying to fix the many problems london and the south east is facing.

In Norway, Sweden and Denmark they are more generous in terms of public spending and union relations!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

So to get this thread back on track, if at all possible, are you saying that the current deal that started this thread of £55k for tube drivers with future RPI + a bit linked wage increases is not in some way generous or appropriate. Or do you believe even more should be paid including the added demands of the Boxing Day working dispute?

At what stage would you suggest the underground's union demands would become unreasonable? Should the taxpayer and travelling public just accept that TFL and the mayor will roll over to every demand that is made of them, regardless of the cost incurred and implications of that cost to the economy as a whole as well as the travelling public?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I feel that Tfl should give in to their demands for the sake of communters!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Public spending can never be considered as generous, it has to be funded either with current or future tax revenues, those revenues paid by the public either directly or through receiving lower compensation from employers or paying higher prices for goods and services - the government spending people's money for them rather than allowing them to keep it.

Unsure what that has to do with this topic either way.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

and the next time ?........,and the time after that ? should we keep giving in untill tube travel is so expensive none can afford it

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I think TfL should tell them where to shove their demands, get permission from the government and issue some bonds to fund driverless trains. For the sake of commuters of course. Computers as a general rule don't tear up collective bargaining agreements because they might feel the need.

Our tube system is already horrifically expensive, as a tax payer and a fare payer, paying for the tube in both ways, I absolutely reject your suggestion that it would be for my sake that drivers should get anything they ask for.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

It already expensive with the latest fare rises!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Is that a glimmer of realisation in your flawed logic ?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

They still need to employ the same amount of staff even if they get rid of Drivers, you still need staff on trains!

---------- Post added at 11:17 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

No I would rather give in that face a long battle with unions, while Strikes keep on happining!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

As has been pointed out to you on a few occasions ,driverless trains may need a token member of staff on board but that staff member will not be on £50-55k a year more closer to 15-20k which is a much more attractive proposition to LU .Also these staff members could be replaced at a whim by agency staff or staff from other areas of LU not involved in any disputes dramatically weakening the unions hand

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Perhaps you should ask yourself the real question then as to why the costs are so high to the public and how that then sits with your statement of

:confused:

Wages are clearly a major proportion of the costs of running a transport system, with the infrastructure maintenance and investment costs the other big part. Both need to be balanced if a system is to be efficient against the income that is acceptable from fares and other grants and subsidies.

The money to meet demands of unions has to come from somewhere. It might be great to take the communist or socialist approach (some thing that failed in the soviet block countries that are now pursuing a more capitalist economy) so that high earning individuals are taxed to such a level where they have no incentive to innovate and will look to relocate to other countries so that all their income is lost to our economy.

Funding is not the bottomless pit you seem to extole. Or actually perhaps that is how you see the underground as a big hole that is bottomless in terms of the expenditure that should be allowed?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

What if those staff are members of Unions like the ones on the DLR?

Why can yuo not stand up for Unions, do you want more people to go nito poverty?

http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/15899265

---------- Post added at 11:33 ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 ----------

What about dividents to Private Transport companies? It is just that communism has failed but Free Market Capitalism as well and I feel that if Rich people move abroad then they need to pay a lot for doing that along with a harmonisation of Taxes so no nation has a Tax advantage over another, becoming a tax haven should be considered a act of war!

I am not talking about a bottomless pit but the need to claw back most of many Trillions and Trillions that the very rich hold!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Are you for real :eek:

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

It's time to invade Jersey, Isle of Man, Monaco, and the Cayman Islands!

Bagsy me the Caymans....

Unfortunately, Alan is just continuing down the financial route that helped get us into this mess (along with the Bankers who de-coupled risk and reward, and the consumers (i.e, us....) who borrowed and spent more than they could afford), which, as Ed Milliband's close ally Lord Glasman states in today's Guardian
In other words - face up to reality, and get some realistic policies.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

yes i am! :d

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I do support the union movement ,but only when their demands are reasonable .

Then the job will filled by non union staff either temporarily of permanently

much easier to get temps in to cover strikes when trains are driverless

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

Do you want more people forced into poverty as their costs of living rise to fund crazy wage settlements for others?

The usual logic here, no way of paying for anything other than vague comments about rinsing the rich.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

YES we need to think less about the wellbeing of the very rich and more about the middle and working classes, we also need to deal with poverty, religous and poltical extremism, repressive dictorships abroad, reforms to public services, more john lewis style companies, better pay and coditions, and better law and order!

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

You forgot "World Peace", "Mom's Apple Pie", and cute fluffy kittens.

Unfortunately, like Ed M, you are good at trite phrases, which you then back up with meaningless polemic.

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

I feel the new labour leader is a disspointment, and anyway have you go any better ideas? :p:

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

As, by the same logic, can HMV, Blacks, Thorntons, Clinton's Cards.......but at what price? More job losses?

Re: Mind The Pay Gap? Tube Drivers 'To Get £55k'
 

We are already paying for the crazy wage settlements of bankers, CEO's Rich Shareholders and Footballers and the wages of people in other sports Look what happed when we got rid of unions from other areas of transport, RESULT: Less employment, worse jobs, less pay and other benifits!

---------- Post added at 12:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------

Then those [Mod Edit] are Scabs (the Governmnent should ban strike breaking)!

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 ----------

They do not have Unionised workers, I would comprmise on the fact that in exchange for benifit and wage cuts in bad times, they should recive a decent share of the profits, and when times are good take back the wage and benifit cuts!