Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No mate, They`re not building any new houses.!;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes, I think so. I'd really like to find that again, actually...

---------- Post added at 15:26 ---------- Previous post was at 15:23 ----------

Yes, just searched Yutube and it's there. Looks like its in several bits - there's one that looks like it runs for 45 minutes but the site I originally viewed it on ran for more than an hour. There are other uploads that have split it into multiple parts of about 10 minutes each.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Google video has it here -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...56453790090544

Certainly opened my eyes when I saw it a few years ago

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Thanks Chris, grabbing that now. Hopefully that will answer a few questions for me. At the moment it does feel like the system just magics money out of thin air and I'm hoping I can understand it better.

Mind you, that'll probably leave me feeling even worse about our current financial situation..

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It will make you feel a whole lot worse, trust me. And if it seems as if our system magics money out of thin air ... That's because it does. :(

---------- Post added at 18:47 ---------- Previous post was at 17:28 ----------

Right - just watched it, and it's not the one I saw before, but it is in the same series. It looks like that's the original. The one I saw, and which I just found again, is "money as debt 2 - promises unleashed". It is on YouTube in its entirety here:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...yU77nHnvt87yHg

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

They not actually borrowing, the term is misleading.

Usually they sell bonds to countries like china. Or it could be as simple as printing money.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

What do you think interest bearing bonds are if they aren't borrowing? They're a promise to pay back a certain amount of money that has been provided in advance after a period of time with interest payable in the interim. Sounds like borrowing to me?

Printing money isn't 'usual' either, we've done it with our quantitative easing programme but this is not 'usual', it's very unusual due to its effects.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

So apparently the banks 'create' money on the books from nowhere. Their gain comes from the interest due on this imaginary money.

If that's the case surely it could be un-created just as easily, leaving just an agreed and hopefully much-reduced interest fee payable as settlement.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Sadly not, they insure this money against default, and they use the money stream from the lending of this money in securities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitization

Once this stuff is created it's quite real and can't be made to disappear unless someone is prepared to purchase the securities / bonds and tear them up.

Re: Economy is worse under us, says Cable
 

Hooray! It's all sorted :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15472547

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes how typical of the EU leaders to be so decisive when it really matters.. :rolleyes:

What planet are these guys on? If they spent less time time patting eachother on the back and more time facing up to the tough realities of economic life we'd all be a lot better off. I've long considered the economy to be a house of cards and right now that's looking rather generous.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

They don't really have to do anything for 2 out of 3 things.:rolleyes: It is the investors(including pension funds?) who will suffer.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15533940

Greece will hold a referendum on the conditions of its bail out.

Pesky Greeks, upsetting the EU apple cart with their ancient democracy. Honestly, you'd think they invented it ...

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I guess having 10% of their population protesting on the streets day after day finally gave them the hint that while there are a lot of issues at home the people don't deserve to pay for them with such savage austerity and a flat economy to protect other nations.

I have a little sympathy for banks though, many were required to invest in Greek debt.

Italy seem to be in bad shape at the moment, before long Silvio may have to stop trying to score with teenagers and actually take some action - what's happening puts in sharp focus how dependent on the EU backstopping their economy Italy have been.

Re: Economy is worse under us, says Cable
 

Not if the Greeks have anything to do with it :LOL:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

and if what Traduk says is correct, nuclear would be the right word. If a raft of credit default swaps are triggered it could be the start of a doomsday scenario.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I guess the sooner the crash happens the sooner the rebuilding can happen; rather than helping those who made bad investment decisions

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:clap:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The Euro was always a political vanity project. Greece should be out of it. Everybody knows that but nobody is prepared to stand up and say it. It seems as if the Greek voters are going to get to be the ones to bring the axe down. Good luck to them.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Apparently the government might collapse before they can hold a referendum. The Greek people want to stay in the Euro anyway, they just don't want to experience further cuts in order to receive the bailout.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

In which case they seemingly want to both have their cake and eat it, which as we know is against the fundamental laws of the universe. ;)

However, this whole situation does once again raise the prospect of a European electorate being denied a referendum on a crucial European issue. The disapproval of politicians in other parts of Europe is troubling. Democracy really does appear to be an inconvenience in any sphere in which the EU is involved.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Is this a crucial European issue for them? My understanding, quite likely wrong, is that this doesn't change Greece's relationship within the EU but involves accepting money from them in exchange for more cuts to balance their books.

It's a financial decision for the government to make, it is the type of decision they are elected to make. There are no constitution changes involved either.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I suppose that the main problem with having a referendum on this, would be the extended period of uncertainty.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Indeed, the EU would be wonderful thing but for us pesky citizens demanding rights

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The deal involves the presence of EU civil servants inside the Greek government machine to help ensure compliance. That in itself is a very troubling development and one which would have even me on the streets were it happening in my country to my government. Whether or not it is a formal change to a written constitution is immaterial in my view. It amounts to the institutionalisation of the European Union as a direct player in the business of government in Greece and arguably sets a precedent that historians might be pointing at years from now as the moment a Federal European Government was born, with powers to directly influence or even dictate the behaviour of state Governments, from within those governments.

It also imposes decades of taxation and falling living standards within Greece - consequences that will be felt by the Greek people, yet without the Greek people having had any opportunity to accept or reject them.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

You mean like the right of wanting to be paid back the money lent out to countries like Greece?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Default on a loan is as much a right as repayment - that's why interest rates vary according to the perceived risk of a default happening.

The value of any investment can fall as well as rise. 'twas ever thus. I don't advocate it as a lifestyle choice but there it is.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

As has been seen within the banking sector here in 2007/8, the problem if one EU country defaults is that the prospect of others following is no longer deemed quite as unlikely as would have been the case just a year or two ago and that alters the confidence equation greatly. The markets hate uncertainty and I dare say the prospect of Greek default is being factored into their mood and decision making as we speak. God only knows what the 'least worse' option for us all is but let's hope that the EU leaders get to grips with this problem before it's past the point of no return (if it isn't already that is).

Meanwhile in the news at home, MF Global have today gone bust having seen, as I understand it, their exposure to dodgy EU sovereign debt come home to roost. Before the anti-capitalists rub their hands with glee, for every fat cat trader and City slicker who's lost their job in the company's Canary Wharf offices, there'll probably be 10 ordinary back office, support and other staff who're also now unemployed through no fault of their own.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/15519124

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I'm beginning to suspect that we are already well past the point of no return and that continuing efforts to 'solve' the crisis are actually stalling tactics to give breathing room to those planning Greece's exit from the Euro.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If I had any shred of confidence that Greece leaving the Euro would significantly help solve the problems in Euro-lala-land that prospect might make me feel a bit better. :erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I doubt and very much hope that the nuclear option does not get triggered. I think this media report sums the situation up very well and will save me typing loads.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...urozone-crisis

A major broker with a reported 6Bn exposure to Euro bonds filed for bankruptcy on Monday. It is (according to various reports) either the 7th or 8th largest bankruptcy in US history. A company with a prior net worth of over $40Bn has gone under in this ongoing mess and although tragic for the thousands of staff globally who have lost their jobs (I know a few of them) it is in reality a snowflake sitting on the tip of the iceberg in this crisis.

What I hope will focus European leaders minds is the old saying of "if you owe the a million, you are in trouble but if you owe the bank a billion they are in trouble".

With Italy also looking very vulnerable they must stop the problem with Greece and in Greece because failure to do so will see the other PIIGS coming under fire and one failure in Europe will be taken as the measure of European lack of resolve. The European now must walk the walk as talking the talk hasn't achieved anything. I think they will.

Previous crises that I have witnessed in the markets, like our ejection from the ERM were handled fairly well but we didn't have to convene a committee to talk about talks ad infinitum.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I have to say I back the ordinary folk of Greece its not there fault so why should THEY be punished with even more hypocrite austerity. Then thats the fault greek government like UK's dont attack the right people for the mess but hit the soft targets.

So would be hypocrite to think ordinary people in greece are wrong hope they get there corrupt government out and likewise I hope we got guts here.

All those greek millionairres probaly left sinking ship like rats.

I think we seeing finally the reason why you should not allow capitilst greed of excess profiteering over jobs.

We seeing the harm to economy of years of massive pay shifts gorging the money. I also think you seeing what happens when critical infrastructure is allowed to be dictated by market forces in pretence they was never going to profiteer inflate costs to businesses/people. We also see what happens when you lose control of housing prices and land costs.

Can we rectify it possible it might mean some ugly decisions nothing to do squeezing the life out people who cant be squeezed.

Hurt the banks, hurt the high roller businesses who wont job create. Would hasten to say new stock rules too to prevent histeria of investors removing shares too easily or at least make penalty TAX.

another might be distasteful for some but might actually help raise some capital for governments. When drugs is seized its destroyed when alcohol and sigs are seized not counterfeit its destroyed. I suggest it should be resold by government.

We not going to stop people using drugs it might be distatesful but it would mean legalising it. However sure if Government sold it under controlled system it could NET the government huge amounts money. Its blood money but we have to come off our pedestal accept it.

Also how much resale seized alcohol sigs would make could also be winner.

Councils who empty houses have loads furniture/goods which all gets crushed surely auctioning or selling them could make funds for councils.

Its crazy how much money we just flush down the drain when if we put some thought into it could earn the country funds.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Because their way of life is not sustainable.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Indeed. And arguably the best way to force them to recognise this is to cut them loose from the Euro and let them balance the books for themselves, using Drachmas.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Error.

"the ordinary folk" are the one's avoiding taxes, having two months pay as a bonus each year, and retiring in their mid-50s on 70% of their salary - how can they not accept some responsibility for expecting a lifestyle that is not affordable/sustainable?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Correct!

Just as responsible as all those who're now blaming the banks for everything whilst failing to take their portion of the blame for jumping on the property remortaging bandwagon and spending far more than they were earning without a care for what would happen when the bubble inevitably burst.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Greece doesn't need austerity forced down its throat, it needs to be cut loose and made to balance its own books being isolated from having Germany backstop its borrowing.

An end to such things as this would be a start.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Hugh this point too many rich people hogging all the money you say that simple workers its unreasonable to retire that early. I have advicated we should drive our retirement down to churn jobs in this country.

The 2 month pay holiday not issue if firms can afford messures infact it gives the working class more funds to spend again not issue.

What the issue is bosses whopping pay MP's cheating systems milking cow that now empty.

If Greece redistributed wealth they would ease the preasure the governments wont because propably they in the troughing too.

If we dont sort it out in this country then WE wont be far down road too.

Austerity measures fine if IT HITS ALL FAIRLY then argument that you cant squeeze blood out of stone.

Ignitionnet thats good point about porches doubt ordinary joe public the ones driving them. But its joe public these austerity measures hitting hardest its not there fault why blame them.

Wealth distribution seems the only answer to greeces woes fairly say its ours too. You wont get government who got the bottle to do it.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I'm reading the post above mine and it still isn't making any sense.

Widespread tax evasion at all income levels, systemic corruption and a ridiculously overweight, inefficient and corrupt public sector with completely unaffordable and unsustainable compensation and pensions aren't going to be fixed by redistributing wealth as far as I can see?

Oh and yes, ordinary people were driving the Porsches mertle. That was the point, ordinary people driving Porsches and dodging taxes.

Greece has less income inequality according to the UN than such states in peril as Australia, New Zealand, Italy and the UK. The ridiculously generous public sector compensation and benefits are a way of redistributing wealth, the problem is the wealth they redistribute isn't actually theirs to begin with as they don't collect their taxes, even if they did collect them there wouldn't be enough to cover the bills, and if they did collect them private capital would probably take flight from Greece as the environment would become so much more hostile to cover such an absurd level of public expenditure.

The austerity is futile in that Greece need to default and start again, without the Eurozone allowing them to borrow themselves stupid. That's the only reason I'm against it, they spent money they will never have and their economy cannot return to proper operation with the austerity measures.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Too true. Short memories....

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Oh it's fine, in Greece even the nationalised industries don't pay their taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/bu...s-pile-up.html

I'm not quite sure how redistributing wealth would resolve this issue, I'm also not sure how it would fix the issues highlighted below:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...x-evasion.html

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I think the German people have more cause to be upset at this bailout than the Greeks. The Greeks are getting some of their debt written off, gone, value which was spent by their government leaving someone else to pick up the bill.

The German government seems to have managed their economy sensibly and has avoided such a crisis but that means the German people didn't get the benefits of early retirement on massive pensions and had to pay more in tax. They are now expected to bailout their neighbours for their lavish lifestyle.

If I was German I would be livid at the Greek government right now and demanding they get kicked out right now.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

For Geman taxpayers substitute all those UK citizens who didn't fuel the property bubble, didn't spend what they didn't have, didn't borrow like there was no tomorrow but saved and invested for their future and you have a significant proportion of the population who've done nothing wrong, have acted prudently and are suffering hugely through meagre investment returns and inflation. They didn't run up vast sums of credit and walk away but just like the Germans they're the ones paying for the excess of others. In what way is that a recipe for encouraging long-termism and personal responsibility in financial matters? :confused:

My elderly parents downsized from a modest semi to a one bed flat a few years ago. To supplement their basic state pension (Dad was a self employed manual worker after WWII) they were relying on the interest on their modest savings but even this has dried up. They've done the right thing, worked hard, scrimped, saved and gone without all their lives and have been rewarded by having what little extra income they had being lost. How's that for encouragement?

How anyone thought the Eurozone could work is beyond me. It flies in the face of all we know about human nature and as always the innocent suffer. Ironically, when you consider the motivations behind the EU, it's the stuff that leads to unrest and wars isn't it?....

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Such as me .I am a sole trader and could have used my quite reasonable credit to buy a new van for work ,new furniture for the house a couple of decent holidays ect ,ect .Instead i didn't use any credit but refurbished the van i have ,bought good quality second hand furniture and took on extra work instead of going on holidays .Today i don't have a credit card bill ,mortgage payments and van payments so i think i have weathered the storm quite well but i still see my earnings being whittled away by rising costs .

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yep they had the same financial aims as the Labour party. Spend spend spend then spend some more and then if needed beg for more from the next government:rolleyes:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

well they should collected the tax or chaised up those who owed that therefore is the fault of the government. No doubt they doing the same.

Its noticable that in this country to lesser degree allowing the same issues we allow 1bn unclaimed taxes go allow people to trough into tax havens.

Yes nationalising critical infrastructure firms would in my opinion give the country safety net. We shown enough companies cant run trains without bailouts which is disgraceful. We proven companies cut corners causing train crashes. We seen what the urtilities have done to cripple country with high bills.

Ok state own was rubbish but that was down to government at the time not operation properly.

Now if they was run better then they could make nice earner for the government net result tax burden lessens. There nothing fundemently wrong with state own business its how its run which can be. Governments ran them down used them too much a cash cow or ran them down that bad they became burden.

As for business are charity cause they are they there to provide jobs that in essense is the crux existence. They make money themselves as reward its when those profits impact jobs which what I hate. Sacking workers to provide shareholders bosses huge returns or wages is quite frankly wrong.

Its about time they provide higher minimum wage say £8 raise bar skilled workers too. Too many companies using the tax credit to justify only providing the lowest wage. Higher pay means more spending more money goes to buying goods will drive economy.

The tax credit should then be reduced burden on the firms to provide decent living not government top workers pay. I think tax credit relief should be only support companies who cant afford to provide decent wage ie small profit businesses. Businesses should pay up.

However the meantime Government has to sort out DEAR standard living sort out the banks, the expensive house market/land costs. Once sorting control it so it dont get out of hand again.

The south need to be sorted to be fair jobs should be spread arround country. Dont understand incestant need to get all jobs around london when other areas have good transport link, infrastructure workforce links to europe.

Its one craziest things that company who makes items them travels up motorway then boards a boat goes to europe. Surely if they export be near the port make items there less transport costs and cheaper to own factory up north too. Plus crazy thing job workforce cheaper. Problem is governments subsidised firms to setup in london and the area even though its costing more. The added bonus would be housing issue would be less lots empty properties up north. They would not keep running out water. simply to many live down south hint less traffic jams too.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes I heard Ed Balls' middle name is Viv.... :D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

so narrow minded to what happening so private businesses who now run previous state owned been so good running these companies. They never had goverment financial support they not charged the hilt to breaking point.

Its causing this country so much more these businesses not state owned.

The add danger is our utilities owned by foreign countries who to say they deliberately charging high to cripple our Businesses and our country.

Lets all put head in sand say austerity doing fantastic job that labour was to blame for whole mess when yes they partly blamed but they tried to bail rightly or wrongly those who put us in mess. I think Labour was wrong should hit banks hard. Labour had same problems they tried to solve it they also had some disasters in world which they helped the tusami springs to mind. I would not be suprised the banks did it deliberate knowing they would get bailed labour would cribbled the country doing so they would got there tory chummies back in.

Labour also desided waste money playing war games guess what coalisition likes doing same therye all bad each other.

The crazy situation governments think everyone should own home or 100% employment is pipedreams. All parties set out policies which never good for the country but self interests.

Quite frankly all three parties useless they either crazy or hurt the wrong people scared chasing those who trough all the money for capitilist greed.

I not talking about equality people deserve to earn have luxurious lifestyles. Its when they go tooo far when those decisions effect employment the haves haves go too far. Then something has to give the world in mess because of it there only one answer it aint quantitive easing. Making dud money will just implode it worse slight wealth redistribution is needed and big job creation.

read world needs 80 million jobs I doubt the businesses got the desire to create that numbers.

We need jobs we need money in hand people who will spend it. We need cost living back on course.

I read that the so called experts want interest rates cuts and housing boom there idiots false economy the last thing we need.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Papandreou is expected to hand in his resignation this afternoon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15575198

---------- Post added at 12:13 ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 ----------

Great ... So the bankers really are taking over Greece ...

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15571540

Not looking very good is it!

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Hardly surprising, he's a socialist leader. If there's no public money available to throw at a problem he'll be lost.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

funny how greece is covering our news to hide our own problems, seems the news now days is either about foreign issues or the welfare system.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

You must have a different news source to me.

The stories on the BBC news front page are

Greek leader "to offer to resign" (with a rolling update next to it)
Cricketers jailed for fixing scam
MPs criticise regeneration cuts
"Shocking delays" in child cases
St Paul's protest 'can stay until new year'
Tanks 'open fire' in Syrian city
English diet 'could save 4,000' 145
Man arrested in fake death probe
Arrests over racist Ameobi tweet
Gaddafi son Saif 'trying to flee'
Latest Bond film called Skyfall

The facts don't seem to back up your assertion.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No it is not.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Greek TV is now reporting that Papandreou has denied he is going to resign.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Perhaps he will put his resignation to a referendum?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Roffle ...

This is now not so much a Greek tragedy as a good old British Carry On.

I propose Kenneth Williams for the role of Papandreou, Hattie Jacques for Angela Merkel and naturally Sid James for Sarkozy.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Charles Hawtrey as Cameron?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Terry Scott and June Whitfield as Jose Manuel Barrosso and Catherine Ashton ...

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:53 ----------

... but a number of his cabinet colleagues are now saying publicly that he should.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15575198

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Vote of confidence is about to take place but it seems redundant now. Seems people have given up on Greece and are fretting about Italy.

---------- Post added at 22:53 ---------- Previous post was at 21:53 ----------

Papandreou has just won the vote of confidence! We might have just avoided a bullet here...

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Really? A vacillating PM hardly seems something to be cheerful about.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If Greece was allowed in by this alledged wrongly then bank surely that bank should cough up.

Although euro should done forensic accounts they can only do it with what was given.

I hope this bank taken to cleaners for it.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Sorry - what bank are you talking about?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Means they will likely take the bailout, which means they don't default on their debts, which means no domino effect where banks badly exposed to Greek debt also go under. For now.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

All under a PM whom doesn't seem to have much of a backbone..Not a very comforting thought.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ne-caucus.html



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...t-6258010.html



Talking of PMs well here is a even worse one.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Good then why dont they just kick us out, Or will they lose the vast amount of money they get from us.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Exactly.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15614883

A coalition government..I wonder if that will work?:erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well if the experience of other coalition governments is to go by then the answer is no.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Strange you should say that - the markets think the UK Coalition Government is following the right fiscal path....

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Ah the markets the bible and bastian of The Great Transformation.:)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Coalitions come as standard in many countries with proportional representation.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Has anyone read any Michael Lewis stuff? I'm working my way through "Boomerang - Travels in the new Third World" at the moment. He makes the financial games relatively easy to understand and thus even more frightening..

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Berlusconi might actually be on this way out today. Can't be possible..can it?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Please let it be so....

---------- Post added at 12:56 ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 ----------

A) bastion ;)
B) the Greeks tried ignoring the Financial Markets - how's that working out for them? :(

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

europe has to make a move on by creating a united states of europe

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No thank you.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well,that may actually work.... it's this or get out completely.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

A) Damn my spelling must get better.;)
B) Ah the financial markets the tool of capitalism and stock market crashes.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re b)

Ah, the instant meaningless emotive soundbite answer....:D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

In fairness, that makes as much sense as anything the experts have managed to come up with so far.
;)

To my simple mind it just seems that the whole western world has been living well beyond it's means for a long time. If I lived my personal life the same way I'd probably have the bailiffs hammering at my door by now.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

In total agreement with you on that one.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Could you put that in something that I'am able to understand:erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...rozone-breakup

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

And why in hell would WE want or need that ?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

we need a united states of europe so that europe can no longer be draged down by 5 european nations, europe itself is doing fine except for those 5 european nations (italy, spain, ireland, portugal and greece)

and another thing, britain and france germany are no longer major powers, let alone superpowers, why do the frist two have perminant sercurty conciil places and india does not

if europe was one it would be a superpower, espcially if it included the all the eu and cis nations

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

thats the last thing we need is a United States of Europe.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Britain's financial contributions to the issue have mainly been to the IMF, which is independent of Europe. So we would still be impacted one way or another. The scale of the problem is bigger, because of the size of the EU and the Euro. The only way a united states of Europe(ie EUSSR) could have had any effect in preventing this all, would have been by a central government setting out budgets and spending plans for the individual countries. The countries wouldn't like that and what do you do when, and it would be a matter of when and not if, the countries decided to overspend and run out of money and then the central government would have to bail them out anyway.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

will then those countries of be part of this united states of europe

plus the uk and ireland will be part of the united states of europe

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Either way the UK would be still be affected.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The main way the UK would be affected would not be via our previous contributions to the IMF - that's already written off - but by banks having to write off any debts they are owed by Italian banks (or by other banks who are exposed to Italian banks).

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yup. Remember the 'credit crunch' that kicked all this off in 2008? A root cause of that was banks being exposed to mortgages that could never be repaid, because they were lent to people that should never have had them, and then packaged up together with other mortgage accounts (some of which were more or less toxic than others) and re-repackaged, and sold off from one bank to another, until it became impossible to work out how reliable any one package of mortgage debt actually was.

Banks became wary of lending to each other because they could no longer trust that the institution they were lending to had the reliable income stream necessary to pay back.

We are already spiralling towards a similar crisis of confidence in the Eurozone that could cause a similar refusal of banks to issue credit, but this could turn out to be a whole lot worse as we're talking about colossal sovereign debts formally being declared unpayable and being written off.

And even now, Merkel fiddles while Rome burns.

---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15671354
So the Greek government is headed by a Euro-banker and the machine is being 'supervised' by EU civil servants ... and all in the cradle of democracy. What a sad day this is.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Inevitable that it would be a placeman approved by the EU mafia. That's democracy gone for another member state.

Let's run through the process again. Give them unlimited free money until they're up to their shoulders in debt. Then reel them in and tell them the only way they can be saved is to agree to certain officials having final approval of key financial choices.

Sad indeed that the country that invented democracy should be swallowed up by this most un-democratic of monsters.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

this whole stuation is a mess

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Nobody forced them to spend on the ridiculous things that they have done or not get people to pay their taxes.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Indeed, Greece has continued to run its affairs has it always did. The difference is, southern European countries are used to devaluing their currencies every time they get in trouble. Now they're in the Euro they can't do that.

The root of the problem is that Greece was allowed into the Euro in the first place. They were locked into the system because the European Council took a political decision to declare that they met the convergence criteria. This was a complete fudge (and not only for Greece).

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Quite right.

Aside from averting a financial catastrophe, possibly the best thing we can hope for from all this is that the problems in Euro-lala-Land have put paid to any hopes the Turks had for gaining full admission to the 'club'. Given the Eurocrats' track record, however, perhaps not....... :erm: