Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

YW ;)

Oh yes, we've been there and done that as I said above. I don't think, however, too many Brits. have come across foreign welfare/health systems as relatively generous and open to abuse as most migrants find ours is, and that's why I believe the UK is soon going to be even more of a magnet for them.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

No need to guess 2.3 million left in the last 13 years and 5.5 came in...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...er-Labour.html

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Migration is necessary to a point but of course there's a finite amount of space/resources and significant long term population growth, whether by migration or procreation, sooner or later has to be controlled.

We can't pick and choose our migrants, however, and we seemingly can't stop EU citizens coming here if they choose to do so for whatever reason. Of course if they stay for a few years, work hard and then go home that's one thing but if they decide to remain and have families here they then ultimately add to the numbers of old people who need to be supported. It's a crazy argument that says we need more migrants to help support the growing proportion of elderly when these same migrants may well go on to become our elderly and therefore part of the 'problem' they were invited here to address. It's especially the case in those migrant communities in which birth rates tend to be higher than the indigenous population.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

As long as he puts option D in, I agree :)

E) You're one of those male chickens

refers to Hugh, so we don't need that one.


Yes, that's what I think. but Hugh wanted me to explain it in the way you did :)

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Yes there is potential for further migrants to enter the country ,that is not the point of the thread .What has happened is we have given cart blanche to any EU citizen to enter this country and immediately be eligible for benefits ,as you rightly say this is also becoming law in other EU countries so no difference there ,the difference is that our benefit system is far more generous than other member states and as such is far more attractive to migrants who will see it as a really good safety net to allow them to come here and search for work (assuming that is their intention) whereas previously they had to register for work in this country (that is also being scrapped).
In this country if i wanted to claim JSA i would have to prove that i was out of work through no fault of my own ,will the migrants claiming be subject to the same rules? .
I would also have contributed to the system through NI contributions and tax ,have they ?

I am firmly against this ,this does not make me or anyone else a migrant hater (apart from someone who said "i hate migrants").I am also firmly against our welfare system being too generous with our own indigenous population but that is for a different thread .Our government is firmly committed to cutting the welfare bill ,how will they manage to do that if we have migrants coming here and automatically qualifying for benefits such as housing benefits because they are only working for minimum wage picking fruit (example)whichever way you look at it they are going to be a burden we can't afford .

---------- Post added at 18:09 ---------- Previous post was at 18:08 ----------

excelant last 2 posts Osem :clap::clap::clap:

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

:clap: Excellent post.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I wonder what the benfits system is like in France... I fancy a "looking for work" holiday in the south of France this summer...

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Somehow i dont think you will get the same handouts as we give to everyone and his Brother who turns up at our shores.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Does anyone actually have data on how generous the British system is compared to other EU countries. Sure, Romania and Poland are likely to be less generous, but compared to the rest?

I mean, it's one thing to say we are a soft touch. To actually back it up is another thing...

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I found this for the french welfare system

http://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/re.../an_index.html

It makes interesting reading and is i think comparable to ours .It does however seem to be dependant on contributions through deductions from wages

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Ireland is, and always has been, a far more generous proposition for benefit tourists. Especially for those prepared to claim in two (or more) jurisdictions simultaneously.

Here are some interesting stats also (2008) the link through shows that Ireland (with weekly unemplyment benefit at 204 euros) surprisingly didn't even make the top 10.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

another idea, allow them to come here, income tax should be 75 percent on foreigners eu or not, entitled to any benefit EVER, see how many we get then !


commit any crime and deport them at there own expense

job done.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

3 words that we all know so well would be used by lawyers to prevent that happening and they are Human Rights Act

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5536803.ece

http://electricsky.forumotion.co.uk/...ot-be-deported

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

If the United Kingdom was a ship, we would sink - The Country CANNOT take anymore.

Isn't it about time that people realised that enough is enough, or even those two puppets who are running this country finally discover that this island is jammed full of people, and we cannot take anymore.

We cannot cope with the people we have already, how are we going to cope with the people that are coming.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I like how you blame the Conservative and the libs for something that has been going on for years and has been continued by successive Governments, your agenda shows through yet again Arthur. Why did your beloved Labour not deal with this over the last 10 years Arthur go on answer that ????

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Cheers for that!

Having lived in one of the top 10 countries, my perception of the UK benefits system is indeed anything but generous. In the Netherlands you're guaranteed a % of your last income (80% for the first, then 60% for the second year, at the time), provided you've worked for at least half a year (IIRC). Having said that, this is unemployment insurance, and the actual dole after your insurance runs out, is not so generous at ~700 Euros per month for a single person household.

Having said that, people are prepared to pay for this system through their taxation. Something I don't see the Brits approving of. Particularly since lower earners are more likely to use the safety net, and the system effectively means that higher earners subsidise lower earners.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

human rights should not exist for none natives, they should be sacraficed upon entry, what about our human rights, as natives of this land to not be shafted by the taxman to pay for these leeches ? instead of inviting we should actively deport, tell angela merkel what we think of germany and tell tem to try and sanction us!

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Human rights should not exist for non natives ??????

they should be sacrificed upon entry ?????????

bit strong isn't is

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Indeed

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

He doesn't mean the people should be sacrificed on entry. he means their human rights should be sacrificed on entry.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

So they stop being human upon entry into the UK?

What a welcoming attitude...

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

No, no, no. he doesn't mean take away their human form and make them zombies or whatever. he means to take away their rights as a human.

remember though, human rights are something that were made. they're not something that was always there.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Surely, the only reasonable reason for taking away a person's human rights is because the person is not human? Otherwise we might as well have called human rights British rights. Presumably there's a reason why we didn't.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

He might mean take away the bits where they can get away with not being deported and such. they can keep the other parts if they want?

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

and that makes it better?

are you trying to clarify what he means or justify what he means ?

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Clarify.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

didn't need clarifying Gary ,either meaning was as ridiculous as the other

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I just couldn't bare you thinking migrants should be sacrificed :)

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

yes, there should be a stricter justice system for them, e.g no matter the crime instant deportation
tax on income should be higher, they should have tax levied on transfer to bank accounts back home
they should require a sponsor to enter who should be held accountable for their actions

why should it be there human right to leech from a society they contribute **** ALL too ?

they perhaps should not ban them, just impose very very severe penalties finanicialy to the point they cant live, and they wont come, job done

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

The governments of recent times, have the power to stop migrants coming into 'free' Britain.

The current puppets can stop this, and should, but won't, the reason, according to them these migrants can bring trade, could be Dr and Nurses etc. But there again what about the BRITISH worker who works there nuts off for this government, they should stop all entries into this country - before it sinks.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

dont be stupid arthur, it is illegal for british youths to aspire to be doctors and nurses and other specialist jobs as it somehow makes more sense to import some tool who cant speak the lingo!

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

You are quite right. We've got plenty of British tools who can't speak (or write) the lingo...

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

very true... i guess because there education is poor (perhaps in part to different influences in the classrom, religions ? language barriers ?) they should be cast into the dole queue ? and become a statistic ?

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I think daniel was being specific, rather than general....

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

i dont understand something, help me out, why is when animals are a nuisance then a cull is permitted ... what about immigrants ?

---------- Post added at 21:58 ---------- Previous post was at 21:58 ----------

i am aware.. but i am generalising.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

so if you are that bitter and twisted about us using foreign doctors/nurses why didn't you train to be one .Instead of ranting like an idiot why don't you try and have a sensible discussion

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

i am very bitter and disgusted, i am probably not an ideal candidate, but i can guarantee you there is qualified nurses not working in the profession.. and not because of choice.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Because human beings aren't animals?

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

are you saying animals should not have rights ? are we any different ? really ?

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

How was your evening meal?

Did you discuss it's rights with it?

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

He might be old, Marty.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

nope, further to the point, survival of the fittest ?

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

He might have had beans on toast, Hugh.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

good grief ,you have no idea what you are talking about

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Considering he stated he was 21 in a post last September - unlikely.

---------- Post added at 22:19 ---------- Previous post was at 22:18 ----------

What about their rights? (which you referred to in an earlier post).

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

so he would be complaining about immigrants that quite possibly have been in Britain longer than him and contributed more than him ...classy

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Nono, you miss the point. He clearly stated earlier that immigrants contribute F-all to the UK. Which clearly must be true as it includes the F-word.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

To be fair that's not fair.
he actually said why should it be there human right to leech from a society they contribute (something)* ALL too ?

he meant the leecher migrants, not all migrants.

* edited

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Would the same rule apply to indigenous British leechers too?

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Do you want me to ask him, Hugh?

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Well, you keep explaining what he means, so I assumed you were two minds thinking as (n)one.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

no he didn't ,in the context of the whole post he meant all migrants

you will note he makes no distinction whatsoever ,you should stop trying to defend the indefensible Gary ..it will give you a bad name

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

It's a combination of things which makes the UK atractive for migrants, illegal or otherwise. Generosity in absolute cash terms is hard to assess and all relative, but what we have here are certain systems and benefits that are relatively easy to claim and easy to abuse (and that includes the indigenous population by the way). As has already been discussed, child benefit is one such benefit that can easily equate to an annual salary in certain E. European countries and the children don't even have to be living here. It's not a huge amount to you or I but a vast sum to these people and if they have kids it's automatic. The shambolic immigration system and the rights asylum seekers enjoy here also means that it's easy for people to overstay and disappear into the black economy. We know large numbers have done this and many overstay for years before they're caught so clearly the system isn't rigorous enough. Even when they're caught if they've married, had children etc. they will in all probability not be deported so yet again the system encourages people to break the rules and can be an easy touch.

It's not just the cash which makes any country attractive to migrants, it's how easily things can be obtained, what protections are offered, what support services there are, how easily they can disappear (in large cities like London for example) and/or get work, how effective the relevant border authorities are at doing their jobs, how rigorous the checks to avoid sham marriages, ID fraud and so on are etc. etc. We can compare ourseves with other countries until the cows come home but I don't see queues of migrants trying to get out of here or jumping out of their lorries in Europe so they don't wind up on the UK. These people often don't speak any English so for these people it's not even a common language which makes the UK appealing. I believe the combination of good, relatively easily obtained benefits/welfare and shambolic policing of immigration in general is what makes the UK a soft touch and that's not to deny that some migrants can have a very tough time here.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6702471.ece

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Well one of us must be reading it wrong then.

Right, ok. i'll keep out of it. but you won't hurt him much will you? :(

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Some good points there, (in particular child benefits, which really ought to be paid at a level commensurate with the standard of living in the country where the child lives) but it seems we are (once again) conflating legal migrants, illegal migrants and asylum seekers which all have differing rights (or lack thereof). Anyway, in a nutshell: These forums are awash with posts from people claiming that the UK is a soft touch where every tom, dick and harry can show up and we'll just throw money at them, when the reality is that the benefits system in the UK is pretty basic compared to many countries in continental Europe (as are, I should add the majority of public services). If things were bad economically in my home country, then a life on benefits in the UK definitely wouldn't be my first choice.

What's more, as was linked to earlier, Brits are excessively concerned about immigration compared to European counterparts with higher levels of immigration. Altogether, it's hard to escape the impression of a xenophobic lot of whinging POMs that simply want more for less money. There. I've said it ;)

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Good post, Osem.

makes a change to see someone else discussing the thing. instead of the usual asking of questions and analysis of ones mental state :)

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

And which countries have a higher level of immigration than we do?:erm:

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

But it's easier to get into the UK. and they might have family or friends already here waiting for them.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

From post #10:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport..._about_im.html

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

well according to the Eurostat figures (table 9) for 2006 which are the last year that figures are available it is

spain= 840,844
germany=661,855
UK =529,008

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

According to the survey quoted by Mark Easton (available here) the proportion of immigrants relative to total population in the 8 countries surveyed is as follows:

Canada: 20.2%
USA: 13.7%
Germany: 12.9%
Spain: 12.2%
Netherlands: 10.9%
UK: 10.8%
France: 8.4%
Italy: 7%

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Doesn't history account for some of that though.The European continent has been open for migration for far longer than Britain and it was easier since it is 1 land mass .We are an island nation and in past centuries mass migration usually equated to conquest or at least war ,maybe it's just a lingering effect of being an island nation used to having to protect itself ...or it could be that we are just a bunch of whinging poms wanting more for less ..as is our god given right i might add :D

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:44 ----------


whichever figures you look at (and those you supplied are probably more upto date) the UK is not top of the list for migration ,in fact comparing the 2 lists the UK has dropped a few places

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Well, isn't that xenophobia in a nutshell?

I should add that the copious amounts of red tops available and consumed by the discerning British public doesn't help either...

Yes, but the difference in perception is staggering. 59% percent of Britons say there are too many immigrants compared to 27% in Germany and The Netherlands. That's despite the fact that England (as opposed to the UK) has only recently overtaken The Netherlands in terms of population density. Population density in the UK is still considerably lower than it is in The Netherlands.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

You really don't get it, do you, Gary?

Osem made a measured post, with rationally put points and reasoned discourse - most people respect this sort of post, even if some disagree with the position.

You, on the the other, tend not to discuss things, and post such bon mots as High on bile, low on content.

Part of the point of forums (the discussing part) is asking/answering questions - I realise you have difficulty with the answering part, due to lack of intellectual rigour and perhaps an unfortunate willingness to embrace facts that don't adhere to your prejudices, but do try harder, there's a good lad....;)

btw, very few people discuss your mental developmental state any longer - it's fairly well established by your posts which part of the Bell Curve you are on; ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, but you seem to revel in it.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

See what I mean about the usual analysis of ones mental state?

Hugh, if only you put as much effort into actually discussing the topic rather than the poster. we'd have a good debate.
I haven't seen much from you in that way. you skip the bits that you can debate on, and choose the parts where you can score points on.

and is that the 3rd time now you've quoted "I hate Migrants"?
I think everyone heard you the first time.

It just seems to me that if you don't like the 'opposing' view in any subject. you have these inane episodes. :)

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Now there's a surprise.

A thousand or so people taking William Hague up on his stated objective of affording them a more democratic life by doorstepping him because they can't currently live in their own country.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

It wasn't about your "mental state", it was about your apparent lack of intelligence/intellectual rigour - your answer confirms my proposition.:D

Amusing from someone whose previous replies in this thread to other posters have included in-depth analysis and debate such as As stated previously, high on bile, low on content - that was the first time I had quoted your reprehensible statement (previously martyh and Russ had quoted it); but as usual, facts are not your friends....:D

I love having a decent debate, Gary - posters like Osem, Mr Angry, and many others are a pleasure to discuss things with; you, on the other hand, have as much debating ability as an BNP spokesman - garbled propositions, moronic non-sequiturs, and constant rants.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Which is why the other factors (in addition to just cash/quality) I mentioned about the UK are important and will affect the different categories of migrants (e.g. legal, illegal, EU, Non-EU) in different ways. Great services are of no use to migrants if they're not entitled to them or can't access them easily or at all for one reason or another. They're not of much comfort or interest to the vast numbers of illegals seeking somewhere to go if they know stand a very good chance of being rounded up, refused entry and deported quick smart. The UK's thoroughly shambolic immigration system is still open to huge abuse and it's still taking ages, sometimes years, for the authorities to get round to contesting claims and removing people even when multiple appeals have been exhausted etc. This, coupled with the almost certain knowledge that, if they work the system for as long as possible and manage to marry/have a child, even illegal entrants and bogus asylum seekers will not be removed, must be a major factor in the minds of those intent on coming here illegally and remaining.

Rights and entitlements are a big factor. I believe, for example, the widespread and routine availability of free translation/ESOL/help/housing support services etc. is a factor in drawing migrants here. Our Polish neighbour moved to France two years ago with her husband and children - no translation services available for them so, whilst trying to learn French, which she has to pay for, she has to get by on her English which it seems the people she meets strangely aren't too keen on.. ;) She keeps in touch with us and tells us she feels really quite isolated there but of course nobody would ever claim that'd be down to French xenophobia at all.

I think we all know there's a fare amount of racism here but that's the same virtually everywhere and not to be conflated with having genuine reasoned concerns about mass migration which is after all what we're talking about. Isn't it true that there's plenty of concern about migration in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Holland etc.? I've travelled and worked abroad a fair bit over the last 30 years and it's certainly evident where I've been in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. According to the many E. Europeans we've known over the years, overt racism (for example against the Roma) is almost endemic and institutional in many places there.

Giving the impression that things in the UK are somehow much worse or harder for migrants than in these other countries (if that's what you're implying) doesn't wash IMHO. If the UK isn't a soft touch and our people and systems are so much more prejudiced than others, why do so many migrants (including large numbers who have no links with the UK and speak no English) go to such extremes to get here (legally or otherwise) and then choose to stay? If it's so arduous here and so much easier for such people to exist happily in France and elsewhere why are there queues of migrants from all over the place waiting just outside the port of Calais?...

Where you'd wish to go is a matter of your personal choice (plus, of course, the immigration rules effective in that country) but the large numbers who've not only come here but remained over the last 10-15 years don't appear to share your view about the UK being a less desireable destination and home to a 'xenophobic lot of whingeing poms'.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Osem: Good points, and I'm definitely not suggesting that there are no concerns about mass immigration throughout Europe. What I am saying is that when you look at the data, the UK does not appear to be overrun by immigrants to a larger extent than comparable European Nations, yet the Brits appear disproportionately concerned. Whether that's a case of xenophobia, pressure on already stretched and underfunded public services or some other genuine concern I don't know, but the difference is quite striking. As it stands, and with knowledge of the state of public services and benefits abroad I'm tempted to take the soft touch stories with a pinch of salt.

For the record: I am an immigrant who's been living here for over 10 years. I'm enjoying it too (otherwise I'd have left). Despite the poor public services...

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Which I reckon will get poorer as demand upon them increases due to unplanned and unforseen raised population levels.

"Austerity Measures" have already caused cuts and reduction in services, so things can only get worse unless UK plc wins the EU lottery big time... many times...

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I seen a piece on that on the news. they were worried that ethnic minorities would take it personal that their club and stuff might close, and/or that they lose funding.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

There are few parties that offer a solution to all this immigration nonsense and sooner or later something is going to give.

Forgot to add... this is our Government as it stands.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13211577 Enjoy

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

They will be in the same boat as everyone else, then.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I know. it was the way they reported it as we hope it doesn't happen because we've got to tell them that it's not personal when it does.

The media always make an issue out of everything that isn't actually an issue.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Hadn't seen that report.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

You wouldn't have. it was on my local news.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I was in Oxford a couple of weeks ago - I might have.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

It would have been cool if you did when I don't live anywhere near Oxford.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I'm not surprised...

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

You're weird.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

And of course you are the last bastion of normality..........

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

It gets the same local news as Brum.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Thanks for clearing that up Gary, up until then I was considering the different ways of carrying out said sacrifices, gotta be either burning on the stake or stoning, I'd go with stoning, less Co2 emissions and with a bit of luck they'll end up half buried after a good stoning as well.

---------- Post added at 17:11 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

Yes and we both agreed it was his fault for being born a chicken...

---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

I'd stay well clear of water, we seem to have some sort of leech infestation apparently

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "bloody immigrants"....

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I think there's 3 of us left.

---------- Post added at 17:52 ---------- Previous post was at 17:52 ----------

Does it. really?

---------- Post added at 17:53 ---------- Previous post was at 17:52 ----------

I like stabbing ones.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Actually, no it doesn't <my bad> - it's just the accents all sound the same, sorry.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

I did tell you, you were wrong.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

You're a winner.

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Thanks. I won't say what you are ;)

Re: A new flood of migrants ?
 

Imagine my joy.....