Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I'd stick to the strict rules already in place that single out the workshy. where if they are not looking for work they have their benefit reduced or stopped. I'd do this so all the other genuine ones that are looking for work don't have to do what we associate 'criminals' having to do in 'payback to society'

if it means 'we' (I'm the government now) save some money then we've done our job. if we don't save as much money as we had hoped, then tough. I wouldn't victimise society just to make up for that money.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Hmm, remarkable turn around there. I see you aren't even being coy now. It's a shame you rather resort to that.

Another one for the ignore list.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Tell me what it's like in your world. tell me the positives of this. instead of the negatives of me. ;)

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I try to think the best of people, and most people live up to my expectations.

I don't think that most of the unemployed are work-shy layabouts, living of my hard-earned taxes, but are people, just like me, but going through a difficult spell (I know there are some people who abuse the system, but why should I tar the majority with the behaviours of a minority (so true in so many areas....;))).

I find most people willing to be helpful, with the occasional rude person, but why should I let their rudeness make me miserable - they are already doing it to themselves, why let them spread the gloom.....

I find it sad that some people focus on the negatives, but I can only assume they have had an experience in the past that makes them think the worst of everything and everyone, and I am glad I have not let past negative experiences of my own affect me that way.

I think that everyone has the capability to be good, but some (again, only a minority) prefer to be bad - I try not to tar everyone as bad, just the ones who are.

HTH

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I meant the positives from being in your world in regards to the subject? :erm:

that was all very nice though :)

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

For those living in rural areas it could mount up. Thirty hours, I think, would equate to four days work. Assuming that the work will be 'normal' working hours the claimants will need to travel during peak hours. If they can't afford to run a vehicle then that could mean four days of peak travel on public transport. If these claimants live in a rural area it would mean that the charge they face could be quite high, it wouldn't be unheard of round here for it to be almost ten pound a day. So lets say the cost would be £35 per week, considering the amount of benefit that gets paid out then that is a significant amount out of the total benefit paid out. With less money the claimant may then find it harder to fund job hunting activities eg paying for an internet connection

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I'd say travel expenses will be met by the government. they won't expect people to pay that as well as working for no wage when you get there. it's almost a certainty that they will as it'll be a big argument against this proposal otherwise.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

So the cost keeps going up?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

The costs will be high I'd say. and it'll probably be a bit like where it's cheaper not to send people to prison to save money.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I would call it investment in a future workforce ,we have a plentyfull workforce that just needs encouragement to get out and get back into a work habit

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

They probably will too. if one of them reads the idea to use.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I prefer libertarian or socially liberal fiscal conservative, but thank you, nicest thing anyone's ever said... ;)

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Here's an idea if the purpose here is to find out who is lazy and doesn't want to work why not offer this to any unemployed person for say £30 extra on their benefit and offer them some training and help to do cv's and interview skills. Then interview the ones that don't sign up for it asking them why because trust me genuine people will jump at that chance you will very quickly find the ones that are not interested. Come on we all know this is labour on the cheap hiding under the excuse of trying to find those who won't work. Besides in my experience you ask any JC worker and they can usually point out the career claimant or at least they could when they were run by the government and local people manned the places.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

be a lot easier to put the unemployed in the forces so they can cut their defence budget.
they can bring back national service and give them a shilling

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I don't think doing some gardening or litter picking is the end of the world for those who persistently refuse to apply for work or who repeatedly find non legitimate excuses not to work, if they want money to eat and live.As long as it's short term and they get the message I cannot think it too bad an idea.If they don't then I assume their benifits will be withdrawn until they make more of an effort to find and keep a job.I think this persistent group is a very small number.

Also I don't want to see people who do this work normally losing their jobs as a consequence because it's viewed as a way to make financial cuts to council funding.

However if everyone is targeted like the ill and genuinely incapacitated then it does become punitive.It truly has to be aimed as a short sharp kick in the backside to the right group.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I really can't see this being aimed at the genuinely sick or disabled. I can see it being aimed at those who'd rather not work if they can avoid it. Whether or not it's workable in practice is another thing however.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Strict rules that probably aren't working if the benefits system has grown to the extent it has?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

The rules haven't been in place that long. I think it's grown due to all the redundancies and lack of jobs, more than anything else.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Could you be more precise?

How long have the rules been in place, and what particular redundancies and lack of jobs have affected the figures?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I'll try.

Not sure.

All of them?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Sadly, exactly as predicted "..... your next attempt at avoidance of the facts by denial".

Still, I suppose expecting rational debate - or any form of logic - from someone whose original stance on a matter amounted to

was always going to be a bit of a stretch.

Good luck with the tunnel vision / blinkers.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Thought of the day.

How much will they save by putting a million public service workers on the dole, and putting a million dole slaves in their place?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Not that simple (surprise) - as the "million dole slaves" (could you be any more negatively emotive?) who are only proposed to whatever they are going to do for thirty days, probably wouldn't have the skill sets to learn and do the "million public servants" jobs in that short time (or even longer).

btw, thank you for your earlier answers to my request for clarification - they were as informative and as precise as I expected.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Will this scheme take work away from the community service that criminals would be expected to undertake? Or are the long term unemployed going to have to work alongside the criminals?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

All I can say is at least this government are prepared to try things to get people back to work.

I know, personally, several people that have got full time work through undertaking voluntary work whilst they were unemployed.

The fact they had done this work showed that they had a work ethic and weren't happy to sit on their backsides expecting the government to wipe their arse for them.

It also gave them valuable experience and it gave then something to put on their CV.

There will of course be caveats to this idea involving the disabled and people with other challenges but on the whole, as an idea worth persuing, I think it's a good one.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

That does raise another issue.. Community service orders.. Will these scheme be compared to them and also will they mix the participants??

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

One will be cutting the grass and sweeping the streets as a way of saying sorry for being a thief, and the other will be cutting the grass and sweeping the streets as a way of saying sorry for being unemployed but I'm using skills and getting used to what it's like to work.

They could always put a sign up so us passers by know which group they are.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

According to the front page of The Times this morning (I would link but it's behind a paywall)

The cartoon on page 27 also sums it up

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

The word that stands out here is:

Which means they don't know, so why not wait until the full details of the plan are released before all going off one.

This leads me onto the way news is delivered nowadays.

The BBC being the worse cuprits in my eyes.

I'm sick of watching news reports with the words, could, might, potentially, etc in them.

As soon as hear or read a report with the word "could" I know instantly that it is nothing more than speculation, and speculation is not news.

BBC Breakfast might as well be rebranded as Breakfast gossip for the amount of factual reports we actually get.

Rant over.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I agree ,in this thread we have had histeria galore ,from slavery to working with criminals wearing orange overalls ,to wheeling out the terminally ill ,it's amazing how many conclusions can be jumped to at the same time

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

This country treats benefit claimants worse than criminals now.

How they going to deal with the problem they breaching min wage.

£65 for 30 hours work.

1 - why is it only manual work, not office work etc.
2 - what happens if they have job interviews or other work related activity during these hours.
3 - is it better than slavery where slavery typically gave you a place to sleep, food, drink etc.

---------- Post added at 20:02 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ----------

I have a big problem with it as its breaking the min wage laws. Also this is just the first step, they will extend this later on, to shorter term claimaints as well. Also people will have to travel of course they will, do you really think they will say ok clean your street for 8 hours and then go home unsupervised. So sounds like they repeating what thatcher did, leopard doesnt really change its spots. Except back then thatcher didnt have a min wage law to honour.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Whilst this proposal has major flaws, I think that comparing it with indentured servitude is a little over the top - indentured servitude was for three to seven years, often working twelve to fifteen hours a day; comparing this to a month, doing something for four or five days a week, for between six to hours a day, only weakens more cogent counter-arguments by association, imho.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

oooooh look more histeria ,

actually it's £65+HB(if living away from home)+council tax benefit +free prescriptions +ect ect

1) the gov hasn't said exactly what type of work yet
2) i would imagine that they would be allowed to go to the interview ,i think that's kinda the point realy :rolleyes:
3)not worth answering as the question is ridiculous

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Then make the paid work higher paid, well doh!

I know a few who wont work ever!!. They lost their dole and they still dont work. These are what you called lost causes and legit claimants shouldnt be treated illegaly for this small minority of people. With whats happening now we will get long term legit claimants 100s of thousands of them at the minimum.

The truth is this coalition is managing to cut money by getting people to do council work for £2 an hour.

Self serving people support the idea as they know the alternative is their taxes go up.

---------- Post added at 20:10 ---------- Previous post was at 20:07 ----------

you realise the biggest chunk is pensions right?
the 2nd biggest chunk is child related benefits.
neither are to do with these changes.

unemployment benefits even including incapacity benefit is not even 10% of that figure.

---------- Post added at 20:14 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------

#3 isnt ridicolous but does show you dont really care of the consequences as it isnt you right.

#1 manual labour quoted numerous times.
#2 you can imagine what you want.

and no its just £65, if they refuse to do it, they lose the £65 but dont lose the rest.

---------- Post added at 20:16 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------

its a right when you pay NI and then want to claim contribution based benefits.

the rest is also a right because its declared so in law.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

well i don't want my taxes to go up to support people who don't want to work ,and i wouldn't say i'm self serving ,i would however support my taxes going up if it guaranteed a better road network ,better public transport ,better health care ,better pensions ect.
What you fail to realise is that being on the dole is only supposed to be temporary (allowing for varying job market circumstances)it is not meant to be a way of life ,the government are attempting to make being on the dole unapealing so as to encourage people to try to find work ,most claimants are happy to play ball they will not by and large be affected by the new proposals the ones who seek to live a cosy cushy life on the dole will and about bloody time too i say

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Since when have we tried a softy softy approach?

every post shows you more and more out of touch.

The benefit system has used the stick approach as long as I have been alive.

The sad thing is the effort put into this by this government.

The cost to the taxpayer is almost nothing compared to what the banks have cost us, and also a fraction of tax lost to tax avoidance.

---------- Post added at 20:21 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------

Why do you think it wasnt working.

Most people who claim JSA are short term only and find work.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I think office work will be done by those that are fit for work (there's a joke in itself) but not able to do manual labour jobs.

regarding food and drink. I think they'll probably have to provide that too. as I said whilst doing this work they'll be under the governments care, so feeding them will be a priority.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

[QUOTE=Chrysalis;35119574]
#3 isnt ridicolous but does show you dont really care of the consequences as it isnt you right.

#1 manual labour quoted numerous times.
#2 you can imagine what you want.

and no its just £65, if they refuse to do it, they lose the £65 but dont lose the rest.
QUOTE]

I take it you have inside information then ,because the government haven't released the details yet ,what most people are commenting on is newspaper speculation and hype ...hense all the hysteria

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

first I would ignore all the propoganda that makes it seem worse than it is. Then I would either write it off as a unsolvable problem or increase the gap from the dole and paid work by making housing benefit more generous when working full time.

I would likely cut back on child related benefits.

The ultimate way to fix long term unemployment is to reduce competition in the job market, increase the number of jobs to the unemployed. So less immigration, less outsourcing, give companies incentives to locate in poorer areas outside of south east and london areas. I would make tax evasion a more serious concern and look at tax avoidance, I would shift tax income from consumption taxes towards income taxes, increase income taxes, give focused health care to people on incapacity benefit, create public sector jobs for people who have partial ability to work, greatly increase regulation in banking, regulate the housing market, I wouldnt pretend the long term unemployed are the countries biggest problem and have it in the news every week.

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:29 ----------

no I just read news reports properly and research.

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:30 ----------

This is aimed at exactly them.

What this doesnt tell you?

1 - currently we have a new biased work capability aseessment pushing ill people on to job seekers allowance or rather work part of ESA.
2 - very soon starting 2011 every incapacity benefit will start been reassessed on this new assessment and a big chunk of them will be pushed onto the work related ESA (dole), so basically we will have long term sick classed as long term dole claimants.
3 - these people are the least likely to find work so are the most likely who will be affected by this.

If you think the new work capability assessment is accurate and fair then you have too much faith in government.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

But what about those that only claim the minimum of £65 and none of the extras? you seem to be saying that the hours worked make up for the extra money, but what about the others?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

But you compared it to was slavery ..yeh way to ignore the propoganda

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

rather I meant your taxes would go up if the council had to pay people a living wage to do the work.

---------- Post added at 20:39 ---------- Previous post was at 20:37 ----------

I think you have a blinkered view of slavery.

roman slavery was actually not too bad, slaves had good relations with their masters and had a good life, a better life than one would get from this.

even if a working wage was paid I wouldnt like the idea but at least then they would be getting a wage for what they doing, then it would have more chance of doing some good because they would have a taste of more money.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

[QUOTE=Gary L;35119592]But what about those that only claim the minimum of £65 and none of the extras? you seem to be saying that the hours worked make up for the extra money, but what about the others?[/QUOTE]


yes gary ,they will have a good incentive to go find a job won't they

It's going to be impossible to have a "one system fits all" ,i believe the last labour government tried that and strangely enough it didn't work that's one of the reasons why we are reduced to such measures now

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

but at the moment the news reports are mostly speculation because the government hasn't released any final details .There may well be some accuracy in the reports but without any details how the scheme will work in practice is just hype and speculation ,i notice that none of the papers who have reported this have mentioned the extra money claimants will get on completion of said scheme

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Good point. what's the point of having them working for an employer or a business, when they might have resentment for having to be there in the first place?

are they going to determine your £65 at the end of the week by not only your attendance, but your attitude and behaviour too?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Lets look at it this way, the government want the unemployed to go round sweeping the streets, picking up litter, and doing voluntary work to get there benefits or it will be stopped.

Has anyone thought, have they committed a crime for being out of work, therefore the unemployed are being punished for not having a job.

If l am not wrong, don't criminals have to do this type of work as part of community payback via the courts, maybe the criminals are NOT doing this work, therefore the government are forcing the unemployed to do the work, as they cannot force the criminals to do it.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Yea but the difference is the crims dont get paid.

I for one applaud the efforts of the current coalition to get the scrounging dole dossing money grabbing barstewards off their fat paid for by us back sides.

Why should I graft my nadds off to survive when these low life, free loading parasites have far more than what I have.
I pay my taxes & my dues and the **** that extract the urine get a free go at life. Sod them all and their ideals, well done to the current thinking.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Are you talking about all of them that are unemployed? do you think the 12 months should be lowered to say 2 weeks to be eligible to go on the 30 day work scheme?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I'll quote my post & highlight the bits you may have missed. Just for you Gary.

The bits in bold outline my feelings Gary, not those that have lost their jobs due to the recession, who have fallen on hard times because of redundancies but the long term oiks who think its a career to sign on.

**edit**

I know its difficult for you at times to understand opinions that differ from yours, but I'm afraid its how I feel.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

But it's all those that have been signing on for 12 months or more that have to do the 30 day work thing. that's why now I think you probably didn't know that.

---------- Post added at 22:04 ---------- Previous post was at 22:02 ----------

No worries, mate.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Sorry I didnt realise I had to go through every possible permutation of unemployment to appease your thoughts on how I may think or what I may know.

Look at it this way. Someone has been out of work for 12 months & they get the call to do "free" work in the community. That person may have been a high flyer at one point and now gets to do something constructive, and that may change that persons outlook as to what work he would take. so instead of sitting back waiting for that high flying job to drop in his lap he may look differently upon life and take something for minimum wage but more fore-filling.

My issue is with the free loaders, if it means that others have to do the work so be it. Life is not all about screwing the system and its nice to see some payback.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

My problem is seeing the innocent ones having to be punished just so the guilty ones feel a bit of the pain.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

It is very easy to get "lazy" when your unemployed ,to fall out of the work habit especially when the media is ramming down your throat that unemployment is going up ,companies are going out of buisiness .One of the ideas behind this scheme is to get people back into the habit of getting up and going out and doing something constructive ,it is much easier to want to look for a job when you are already active and in the working mindset

---------- Post added at 22:29 ---------- Previous post was at 22:24 ----------

gary ,nobody is being punished :dozey:

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

People need to stop looking at this as punishment.

Similar schemes have run in the US and have been considered a success.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/seealso/2..._labour_f.html

While they have a different work ethic to us, it's not to say the scheme won't work here.

Certainly when I was looking for work, my hours were going down, I started working from home. I was becoming more adjusted to that than work. I started volunteer 2 afternoons a week but didn't really change how I felt. Then suddenly thrust into a full time job + 3 hours commuting getting up at 6:30am and in bed 3 or so hours after dinner... Its a shock to the system. When you are at home during the day you really feel the days go on forever. I was working but God knows what it would have been like if all I had all day was job hunting.

So I can certainly see the value of not allowing people to be too comfortable with beinf out of work. I know the difference it made to others to get out and do unpaid work rather than moping at home.

This scheme is only punitive if you have entrenched views to see it that way.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

How do you know they have more than you?

Not all the long term unemployed are workshy.

---------- Post added at 03:53 ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 ----------

Not one person defending this has commented on the min wage issue. Turning a blind eye pretending its not an issue?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Why does there have to be a natural assumption that this will not be welcomed by the unemployed and in doing that are some of you not doing them a disservice. As i stated before sometimes the biggest obstacle to getting back into work can be the period you are seen by an employer to have been sitting doing nothing this scheme if done correctly will help remedy that or at the very least remove that excuse from potential employers. I do have my concerns with some of what the coalition and certainly some of it's members have in mind in other areas but that is something for another thread. This if done right (thats the key point here will it be done right) does not have to be a bad thing and could be a very good thing for long term unemployed who want to return to work. Sadly for the career claimant i don't think it will make a figs difference they will simply avoid it by going onto some form of medical benefit for a while and play that cycle of jsa, esa kicked off back onto jsa for a period and back onto esa.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Marty has said that they get paid for the 120 hours (£700) when laws apply, from the £260 plus HB/CT/Prescriptions/etc they get on top. if applicable.

---------- Post added at 09:44 ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 ----------

But won't the employers know that this period of work activity was compulsory? they won't necessarily see it as you volunteered to get out there and do something with your time.

they could ask if you enjoyed it I suppose.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

First we went for the smokers, then we went for the drinkers. then we went for the fat people, now we're going for the unemployed.

(quoted from what I heard on the Jeremy Vine radio show)

soon we'll be going for the tax evaders. who incidently lose us more money than the others we went for.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

The sooner we go for sensationalist posters that refuse to listen to the facts, thrive on hearsay, have trouble understanding two sides of a discussion and are sometimes just plain ignorant..............the better.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I don't think you could devalue the Pastor Neimoller statement more if you tried....:confused:

You are comparing a genocidal regime with a proposal to have to turn up 9-5 for one month - you really need to get a firmer grip on reality.

Unless, of course, you are one those affected by the proposal?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I'm just talking about the stigma surrounding these groups of people. unless you're saying there is no stigma?

Not at all. :rolleyes:

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

So in your mind, your perception of the stigma = genocide?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

My take on it is that I don't know what their purpose is. They say it will help people, yet to me I can't see them doing anything to actually help anyone (apart from themselves). This seems like a way of doing something about a problem without thinking it through.

I'm practically housebound, yet when they put me on JSA, I'd be expected to sign on (even that will be a struggle) and maybe have to do this work thing (this course or the real thing). What I don't understand is there are people on here that have said they won't, wouldn't or shouldn't put the sick to work, but if the sick are deemed fit enough (by ATOS) to get off ESA and onto JS then what's to argue. You're either sick or you ain't, or in their eyes there's no such person that is sick or ill if you are claiming jobseekers regardless of their illness or disability.

In the mirror today they've said it can't work, but will it stop them from doing it, I don't know, probably not. So I don't hold out to what their agenda really is.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Don't be so ridiculous. why you want to make the connection for I don't know. it's unfair and silly.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Would you welcome it if on the dole?

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:35 ----------

one thing for sure the government isnt revealing the facts, osbourne has already broken the new minister code.

---------- Post added at 15:40 ---------- Previous post was at 15:37 ----------

possible agendas?

1 - scare people into not claiming for benefit when they entitled to it, making the stigma and downsides very bad. Already many people dont claim when out of work due to stigma but this number is going to increase now.
2 - a way to kick people off benefit, if they refuse to do this.
3 - to save the council money by offloading council manual work onto claimants.
4 - class war, could be no long term plan but rather they just been ********.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Good points there. :tu:

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I didn't make the connection - you did, when you paraphrased Pastor Neimoller's quote, which was about the imprisonment and genocide of gypsies, Jews, and others who were seen by the Hitler regime as sub-human.

Pastor Neimoller Gary L

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

No, you'll find you did. you took what I said as exclusively to the other.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

As usual, what you say makes no sense.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Without being accused of arguing. I think if we were in a televised debate you would have sighs for you trying to connect the 2. for reasons only known to you.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

That is positively ridiculous. One was a list of what has been targeted and the quote from which the supposed paraphrasing took place is a last man standing situation whereas the plight of others is of no concern because the writer is\was still standing.

I would never have made such a connection but perhaps a Freudian slip was at play?.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I mentioned about osbourne breaching the code. here is a link.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/pe...-and-cheating/

also IDS (deliberatly?) gave false figures of created jobs on a bbc tv show possibly was newsnight. I cannot find my source now but he quoted a silly high 6 figure number of how many jobs are created each week in job centres.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Chrysalis if i wasn't as medically bad as i am and unfit for work yes i would welcome the chance to do this if it was all that was on offer. As i have said numerous times what i would prefer to see instead of these short term answers to long term problems is proper training setup in this country to train our own people to do the jobs we apparently have shortages in.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Thought I'd jump in and have my three pence worth.

Knowing someone who works for the DWP they can tell you of many, many people who are indeed "cheating" the system. That's not to say they all are just that a lot of them are. Also, there are people who claim to be ill who are nothing of the sort. Over the last 10 or so years there has been a massive increase in the amount of people with the "blue badge".

Furthermore, some of those who are "ill" are capable of some sort of work to some sort of degree. Not necessarily a 9-5 job.

What I think they are trying to do is to make it harder to be on benefits, to get people out of the mindset of claiming benefits. Whether it applies to you or not it helps everyone as it potentially reduces the spend the government makes on paying people who are out of work.

If people are truly incapable of work then what makes them fear being assessed for the same? Is it not possible that someone's previous assessment of a person was wrong also?

As an attempt to reduce the spend on benefits I'd have to say it's a decent enough starting place. The previous system wasn't working any better and the persistent dodgers had worked out all the ways they could trick the system. What we have at the moment are a lot of "what if's" and no evidence to suggest it won't work.

John

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Because I don't think the people doing the assessment are capable of doing up their shoe-laces let alone make a medical judjement.

Me, I'd love the job centre to actually help me instead of turning me away when I ask for help. So I await all the new rules and things with interest (Not just this one). I doubt even the job centre would be stupid enough to send me out litter picking or gardening, but maybe they could find me an accesible pc somewhere and I could do my time there.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

The fear of assessments comes from the fact that the assessments are biased, legitimately ill people get results coming back saying they fit for work. This was even happening on the old assessment never mind the new one. In the days of hand written reports doctors used to alter reports with false information after the claimant had signed the old one off. These are the barriers claimants are up against, that non claimants dont realise happens.

Estimations of money gained by government due to (a) people not claiming when they entitled and (b) people been wrongfully kicked of benefit due to rules that are too harsh is greater than money claimed to be lost due to fraud, making the latter a smaller problem.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

My only question is how people can assess themselves able to work or not and how people can judge that they've been "stitched-up" by assessors. For the life of me I can't work that one out.

I appreciate that people may "think" (for want of a better word) that they are unable to work with all the best intentions. From my own experience the assessments are very thorough.

Of the people I know that have been assessed to be "to ill to work" I've not heard one of them say anything other than they'd like to work if they could find a job that fits in with their health issues.

Are people saying that all assessors are "bent"?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Who said that people should assess themselves. I have no problem with someone who actually has medical training assessing me and is able to deviate from a pre-set script. Weather or not the assessors are out to 'stitch people up' is up for debate, personally I just think they are not able to do the job.

Frm my own personal experience the assessment was a complete waste of time.

Yup, I'm hoping that will indeeed happen in my case. Although things are already progressing with the job front here.

No, just incompetant / useless / not up to the job - take your pick.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

no people are not saying 'all' assessors are bent.

There is multiple problems with the asessments that I am aware off, the ones I know off hand right now are.

(a) atos origin is a private company that needs to make profit, they get paid more money if they deem more people fit for work than if they deem more unable to work.
(b) in hand written assessments it is not unknown for the assessor to change what they have written after the claimant has signed it off.
(c) in computer assessments (lima) it is designed to push towards the "fit for work" result, the doctor asks questions to the claimant given by the computer which can be completely irrelevant to the illness. luckily the doctor can overide the computer result, in these assessments the claimant doesnt sign it off, they dont see what happened until the result. assumptions are commonly made, eg. if the claimant says they can sometimes use a bus to travel, an assumption will be made they can do that at anytime.
(d) on the new assessment certian symptons of illnesses no longer score points, things like been unable to walk up and down stairs are now deemed as not an important thing to assess. simple moving the goal posts to save money. again luckily doctors can overule the computer. eg. if the doctor decides that ruling the claimant fit for work would be detrimental to their health they can deem them as unfit for work, this is rare tho probably due to (a).

personally I think the assessments are nowhere near thorough enough, some people can be in and out in 5 minutes. it is also all done in only 1 visit only. Not to mention we now have nurses and non medical staff doing some assessments.

in terms of how do you assess yourself? Well if you cant even do normal daily activities that would be the first sign, obviously also if your illness lost you your previous job thats another sign. A lady who has been blogging on youtube about this did an interview on a radio station and that excursion out for her has messed her up for days after it, the energy used for it completely drained her. I think what people really mean about assessing themselves is on the basic details, eg. someone knows if they can stand up and sit down etc. so if you know you cannot sit down without severe discomfort and then read on your report that "claimant has no problem sitting down" then you are obviously going to be angry.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

These are very, very serious allegations to make. Where is your proof?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I am not going to post individual case details here, unless I can find any that are already ok in the public domain, but it is one of the reasons lima was introduced.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Oh, right, so the answer is you have no proof whatsoever.

As for your contention that "it is one of the reasons LiMA was introduced" please be so good as quantify and provide your evidence for that statement.

Thanks.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I believed LiMA (along with other IT systems) was introduced because, due to the ever increasing document and admin processing requirements required for a growing number of applicants/recipients, it was impossible to find/process paper files in a timely manner (this information is from someone who worked in the DCS at the DWP, who told me that when they told people on the phone they couldn't find their file, they really meant it, as nearly everything was in one big folder, and if the person who had it last was on holiday, and hadn't re-filed it before they went, it would be stuck in their desk drawer for two weeks).

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

For me it is exactly the opposite. I only know of people who have been assessed as unable to work when they are (by their own admission) capable of doing so.

But we're back to defining what is "fit for work". If you can use a computer for example then you must be capable of doing work at a computer. I don't particularly buy into the theory that people will be shuffed into jobs that they can't do just because it ticks some boxes. I appreciate there may be isolated cases where people feel hard done by but I'd equally have to say that nothing's perfect and injustices, of varying degrees, happen every day.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Is that because they stick to a script/list of questions to ask?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Let's take your example there.

I can use a computer. It has to have special software and would (If there is paperwork involved) also need a CCTV machine.

Now to get the job the copmany will have to (in most cases) pay for a part of that as the access to work scheme won't cover the whole cost.

So who is the employer going to pick? - someone who can just do the job, or someone who will cost money to do the work?

So just because you /can/ use a computer - doesn't mean it's practical that you will be able to in a work environment.

If the government change their access to work scheme to expand it then cool, but I can't see them doing that.

Even if I could get the software I need on say a memory stick I could take it with me and use it on other pc's

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

It was just an example. Not intended to be a "one size fits all" approach. I also understand that everybody's needs are different and that there will be people that are just incapable, through whatever reason, of carrying out a job of work.

Generally, I don't think anyone can disagree that there are a number of people out there on benefits who are "cheating" the system and more to the point "cheating" the system on purpose.

If the only people who ever claimed benefit were always legitimate then I doubt we'd feel the need more such measures. The minority spoiling it for the majority. Any system under any government that attempts to tackle the issue must surely be looked upon positively.

John

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

We'd like to think that, but it might be the case that they still might do it as a means of shaking it up and saving money.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

There have always been a number playing the system for personal advantage and without doubt due to the massive numbers now within the system it has reached ridiculous levels. Something must be done and rolling back to what was intended and reasonable must be achieved.

What I find irksome is the is manner in which the achievement of the objectives are proposed. A government in a rush to resolve problems acts the same way as anyone who sees a goal as the objective and skips the planning stage. The consequences of the carnage on the way to the goal often creates more problems than the objective and frequently the goal is lost in a raft of new problems created by unintended consequences.

A blanket tick box test on previously unfit people will throw up thousands of anomalies and especially with those who have the myriad of complaints that alternate between flare and remission. Almost everybody could be classified as being fit to do something but matching an individual to a job that they supposedly could do with an employer who is willing to take on the liability of what may be, through no fault of the unfortunate potential employee, a grossly unreliable employee is where the government's utopian dream ends.

The coalition idea whereby long term unemployed are possibly going to be required to do compulsory work is IMO a degrading and punitive move. The close parallels with court orders virtually ensures stigma. It is easy to think of the work-shy free loaders and think that they deserve such a kick up the backside but a different conclusion may be reached if the thought process involves "what if I become one of those". Before this period of economic re-adjustment is over many who currently think themselves safe and secure will find disappointment.

Fortunately little of this affects me personally as I am retired as is my wife. My businesses are closed and I no longer hire and fire but having been a concurrent employee and employer I can see the naivete of all of these coalition proposals. They are divisive and a recipe for social division which is not only evident but gaining momentum.

These problems could have been tackled with more precision but the new young guns are in a hurry and its sledgehammer to crack a nut time. Social division, anger, resentment and disdain towards others is something that I decidedly do not want to see but it is building via the government and media and as it will affect quality of life for almost everyone I see no winners beyond the coalition deflecting criticism from themselves.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

We have to look at this matter two ways, those people that have lost there jobs, through no fualt of there own, or the lazy gits who are using the benefit system as an easy way of life.

I got made redundant two years ago, so l was determined to find a job, as the benefit system to me, put me on the overty line, so l sat in my car for 6 hours a day, taking numbers down from the side of vehicles going down the A4 near my home, going home, getting the companies on the internet and faxing my CV to them.

I got more interviews from that, than from the JC, who were totally useless, they sent me on training schemes, which were a total waste of time, and when l told them what l was doing, they said, it was a waste of time, and l had to go via the JC, doing it my way, l got a job and am still there.

The Government must not treat all the unemployed with the same brush, as the lazy gits, that sit on the backside, they MUST help the unemployed get back to work, but there is no incentive whtsoever, to get them back to work.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I've no wish to get into the politics of it all but I see this as a Labour created problem that is becoming marked as a coalition problem. It was the previous regime that made the mess we have now.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

yer ! yer ! and it was a conservative before that.
As Rome burns keep passing the buck .
as i said before when the conservative were in
70/80s there was 3 million on the dole

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

There is a problem and there needs to be a solution. The hoped for answers are in the hands of those elected as only they can make the decisions.

Whereas a blame game of politics is somewhat pointless the political decisions of those elected to steer this country is most important as they are mapping out the future that we will all have to live within.

I am stuck with no current political convictions but have concern that the mess that we are in may become a far bigger mess in a few years time.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

my response to that is you cant have it both ways, the government have provided no proof to their own figures.

So if you dont accept what I say then you shouldnt be accepting the other side of it either.

---------- Post added at 15:26 ---------- Previous post was at 15:23 ----------

Lima is just as much paperwork, it gets printed out. Lima was introduced mainly to cut back on the complaints regarding reports been altered (sometimes even in different handwriting to the original report) and to provide a more streamlined and efficient (standardised) medical process. I have the lima software here somewhere as I requested it via the freedom of information act some years back, and its interesting stuff.

---------- Post added at 15:29 ---------- Previous post was at 15:26 ----------

There is cheats now and will be cheats after this change. But you are misguided if you think these changes are solely to tackle fraud. But what doesnt hit the news and what seemingly noone has a care for is that there is also people who wrongfully get turned down, more than half of appeals overule the DWP. these appeals are expensive.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Sorry, the facts of the matter are that you made (still) unsubstantiated allegations about medical professionals committing fraud. This has nothing to do with Government figures (wheter corroborated or not) it has to do with you making unproved libellous statements in an attempt to support your "argument".

An "argument" based, I have to say, on a premise which you have singularly failed to supply any evidence, whatsoever, in relation to.

Now, back to the question. Where is your proof to back up your allegations of fraud being committed by medical professionals in relation to these assessments and where is your proof that LiMA was introduced to prevent such occurances?

Cheers in advance.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Until you admit it works both ways I wont take this further with you, the government is making unsubstantiated allegations about claimants, you discount it as irrelevant tho.

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/new...edical-reports

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

OK, lets play it your way.

I don't believe the Government figures and I have never suggested that I did. As such I'm not remotely interested in what they say. I am, however, extremely interested in what you have said.

So, back to the question. Where is your proof to back up your allegations of fraud being committed by medical professionals in relation to these assessments and where is your proof that LiMA was introduced to prevent such occurances?

Cheers in advance.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I have linked you to an article on it.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

No, you haven't.

You have linked to an article which speculates on the possibility of it happening (and coincidentally contradicts your earlier assertion regarding the reasoning behind the introduction of LiMA).

You stated, unequivocally "In the days of hand written reports doctors used to alter reports with false information after the claimant had signed the old one off. These are the barriers claimants are up against, that non claimants dont realise happens." and further "(b) in hand written assessments it is not unknown for the assessor to change what they have written after the claimant has signed it off."

Neither you, nor the article, have provided any proof, whatsoever, of action having been taken or charges having been brought against any individual (medical professional or otherwise) in relation to offences committed under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act of 1981 in relation to the allegations you have made on this forum.

Now, again. Where is your proof to back up your allegations of fraud being committed by medical professionals in relation to these assessments and where is your proof that LiMA was introduced to prevent such occurances?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Yoo are basically asking me to give you hard evidence of a case on a public forum, cannot do that and you know it. I think you on an agenda to try and discredit me as you dont like what I am saying.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

No, I think he's asking you to provide some basis for your claims, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in any discussion. If you make claims in a forum discussion, you had better expect that someone is going to ask you to back them up. Suggesting that anyone who challenges you is 'on an agenda' or is simply out to 'discredit' you simply won't do.