Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Pleased about this. Now we just have to wait and hope they'll scrap child benefit for everyone else as well.

When I can't afford to have a child of my own, I don't see why I should have to subsidise everyone else's.

---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------

Well said.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

The problem with that logic, is that some have kids as a lifestyle choice, helps them get house, benefit,..there are families who only outlook is benefits, and kids who know no other way.

I'm not convinced that is the only, or best way. Far better to reward those who are willing to work..who recognise that to get somewhere you need to work hard.

But, I don't know the ideal solution..perhaps we give benefits for those who have worked for a period of time (put effort in, get it back), and we only support them while they work. And means test it, similar to what is suggested, income over a set amount doesn't qualify .

Not thought it through, but just know that presently it is a perverse incentive to some, and perverse benefit to others.

Not sure I'm invested in the subject to solve it, but I can certainly see the flaws of the present system. At present, universal benefits are unaffordable.

Ok..start the shooting :D

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

True.

Basically, we have three choices:

a. Encourage citizens to have children.
b. Encourage people to immigrate, and have children.
c. Do neither, and end up with a pensions bill and healthcare system that are unsustainable.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Four choices

D. Invent the elixer of life, stop having kids

Guess which i choose :D

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Isn't it a bit ironic that you want to scrap a benefit that is designed to make it easier for people like yourself to have kids?

If anything, you could see it as a way to spread the cost of having kids. You pay some tax for it now, and get the benefit when you have kids. Once the kids grow up you keep paying for the money you received through your taxes.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Flyboy, over a long period of time you have shown yourself to be driven by naked partisanship. For me to believe that there is anything underpinning your opinion in this thread other than blind devotion to the Labour Party (or blind hatred of all things Tory, or both) would require me to take leave of my senses first.

For you to continue to misuse terms like 'rich' and 'poor' in relation to this discussion shows that you are prepared to trample all over the sensibilities of those who are really poor, just so you can make your party political point. I was going to say that reading your posts is like reading a Labour press release, but in fact you have more in common with this man:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/10/51.jpg

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Little punky's, running around cable forum..:D

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Be interesting punky..The NI you presently pay is paying the pensions of today's OAPs.If people can't afford to have children and therefore don't have them whom is going to be paying the NI contributions required to pay your pension?:confused:

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Kids cost a lot more than child tax benefit covers. So thinking that I'll have a kid I can't afford just because I may* get some kind of benefit to cover it is irresponsible.

Most people won't let you have a dog unless you can afford to look after it. But any old irresponsible idiot can become a parent.

* As today shows, things can change.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Wasn't that originally one of the reasons why family allowance was introduced in the first place about 1946 i think to encourage people to have more kids after the war

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

I don't expect there to be any money in the pot when I retire. It would be nice if there was, but i'm pragmatic. Which is why i've always looked at other options than to rely on the state because in my experience, the state is the last person you want to rely on. And given my family history and body shape, i'd be amazed if I see 65.

2 points come to mind though:

1. Children brought into poor circumstances these days don't tend to be nett givers to tax

2. Looking around, we're really not short of people in this country.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

We are short of people to the extent that their NI contributions aren't enough..Maybe the NI should increase if The CB was reduced.? I expect though that someone will have a good reason why that is a bad idea..

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

[QUOTE=punky;35103513]I don't expect there to be any money in the pot when I retire. It would be nice if there was, but i'm pragmatic. Which is why i've always looked at other options than to rely on the state because in my experience, the state is the last person you want to rely on. And given my family history and body shape, i'd be amazed if I see 65.
QUOTE]

I can see the state pension being next on the hit list

That's a bit of a generalisation isn't it .Quite a few children from "poorer" backgrounds use that a very fact as an incentive to not rely on the state and do something constructive with their lives

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

It is, but it has to be. Whilst there will always be decent folk who would have a great ethic, work hard and pull themselves up by their bootstraps they'll always be outnumbered.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

A sad indictment of our society

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

A good way of putting things into perspective from the Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010...george-osborne

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Why wouldn't he be serious?

Bringing a child into the world knowing full well you can't afford to, and expecting other to pay for it is negligent, and downright cheeky.

---------- Post added at 20:56 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------

Anyone relying on a state pension to cover them in their old age, is really in the brown stuff.

Anyone working who is not paying into a personal pension is deluded.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

unless it was accidental or the family was inplace before the job was lost ,yes it is cheeky to do it deliberatley and i am aware that some do ,but exceptions have to be made

---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:56 ----------

or can't afford to ,my god where do you get off being so judgmental on other peoples finances .If some one is prepared or can only find work on minimum wage or close how the hell are they going to afford a private pension which may or may not be worth anything when they retire

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

That's as maybe but the fact is that there are few ways to provide for a private pension whilst interest rates are as low as they are and those on lower incomes will have less income to spare for private pension schemes and so will have to factor in the state pension because they can't avoid paying NI..

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

I wasn't being judgemental to anyone, simply stating that if you were working you'd be foolish to think you can rely upon a state pension to support you in retirement.

I accept everyones finances are a matter for them, but I can guarantee that there are people on modest incomes that could if they wanted to afford to save, or put in a pension but they choose not to do so, not give up their luxuries now.

But they will expect the state to support them in later life.

I'm not saying everyone, of course there'll be exceptions, but there are people who can afford to save for their future that aren't.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

I'm not talking about you or stereotyping in any way I was quite specific, still if you want to take offence that's your prerogative.

Clearly commenting on paying a ton of rent for a not very large maisonette is 'bragging'. I'm quite sure I've never bragged about my wealth largely because I don't have any worth bragging about.

When you get the opportunity do feel free to read what I wrote again.

I would suggest as an ongoing piece of advice to anyone that if they are not happy with their current income from their job they look for another one, and be prepared to move if necessary. That's what I've always done, nothing to do with 'luck' I just moved to where the work was which is why we've moved 3 times in the past 4 years.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

People do not have children just to get an extra thirteen pounds a week.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Then you should have said that instead of



---------- Post added at 21:25 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------

Want to bet on that

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Indeed it was. In fact, if the baby boom didn't happen the when it did, we would be in a far worse position than we are in today.

---------- Post added at 21:35 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ----------

I can't see how the plumber in that example gets five thousand pounds a year in housing benefit, when he has a salary of nearly thirty thousand pounds a year.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

That had me puzzled as well :confused: if that's the case then i am owed some housing benefit

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that wondered about that as well. We ain't eligible for HB and we live on far less ourselves. :confused:

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

:rofl:

They were 'red' tax rises though....... ;)

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

I am sick of seeing hardworking British people and families punished for the mistakes of greedy banks. I have started a facebook group 'I WILL NOT BAIL OUT BANKS' please join and together we can stop this insanity. Banks are responsible for the deficit let them pay for it!

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Firstly starting a facebook group will make absolutely no difference to the government. If a bail-out is going to help save the economy then they aren't going to change their minds over a little fb page.

Secondly did you join us just to spam your page?

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

I still stand by it.

---------- Post added at 09:03 ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 ----------

Bit late with this aren't you? last I heard we'd already bailed them out.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Already bailed out, most of the deficit is due to nothing more interesting than spending too much in public services and welfare and not charging enough in taxes to cover it, and it's extremely likely the tax payer will see a profit on the bailouts.

But, hey, why let facts get in the way of a good rant, let alone dealing with the very simple fact that the baby boomers and to a lesser extent my generation have had it too good and been mortgaging our kids to get it.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Ah well now a facebook page has been started to stop something that has already happened i will give dave a call and tell him all is well and he doesn't have to bother with any of those silly austerity measures :rolleyes:. We have a lot of people in this country on perfectly liveable wages getting some form of benefit as that article in the guardian a plumber on £30k getting housing benefit thats where one of the biggest problems is.

Benefit was intended for those who by no fault of their own found themselves in financial hardship and needing help to maintain a liveable standard. We have forgotten that and like so many other things it has been used by numerous governments to get votes and keep people happy. If we cut benefit back to what it is truly intended for and dealt with the tax avoidance problem we would have quite a bit more money to help the country out in other ways.

What makes me laugh and again i heard it recently was a man who openly admits he claims about 11k in various benefits whilst earning over £25k (not saying thats a huge amount) complaining about "lazy benefit claimants" and how the country needs to kick them up the backside it isn't just lower social class people taking the system for a ride they are just judged happily by most to not deserve it..

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

I don't think that article was totally accurate. ;)

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Usual clever stuff from the coalition, thank god we have a team in place that thinks everything through so thoroughly, it's that perfect and no doubt the think tank will be on to a huge bonus.:confused:

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Would have thought sticking it to top rate tax payers would be quite pleasing to you?

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Dave is going to do a speech today on fairness, poorly planned considering this idea, how can it be fair that a single person earning £44k can loose their benefit but a couple can earn £87k and still keep theirs and no amount of talk of not wanting to means test will change that.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

It can be fair because a family with a single earner on £44,000 is still comfortably above the average earnings in the UK. If they were taking this benefit away from low-earners, then there might be a case for using words like 'fair' and 'unfair' in a perjorative sense.

Personally I think if we're going to get into deciding what's 'fair' we should be looking at the economic situation as a whole rather than focusing on the bits that best facilitate Tory-bashing. What's really unfair is the mess we are all in. What's fair is that this reform will claw back much-needed money from at least some people who can afford it, without costing more money in the process.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Interesting analysis on the BBC Politics blog Stephanomics

The bit that caught my attention was

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

Yes I am aware of why they have done it and broadly support the idea that those that can afford it should shoulder more of the burden, just strikes me as odd that two days after launching such an 'unfair' piece of legislation he will be up on the podium banging on about what's fair.

Re: Child Benefit Scrapped For Higher Rate Tax Payers From 2013
 

I see where you're coming from ... but I really do think that an honest analysis of 'fair' and 'unfair' requires a far broader view than any one policy.

For example, this recession caused my contract work to completely dry up. I was unemployed for well over a year through no fault of my own. I was also forced to avail myself of the services of the DWP and go through all the rather dehumanizing background and financial checks that ensure I'm not cheating the system. That's not especially fair on me ... I'm an honest sort, simply trying to get the support out of the system that I was entitled to. But at the same time, I recognise that benefits are designed to cope with a lot more people than just me, and so I accept a little personal discomfort as sad but inevitable.