Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

:tu:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

But it's not always the entire group of people. and it's not always really about their religion.
if we discuss muslim terrorists it's about a select few of them. a select few extremists. but it's oh no they're picking on all the muslims again.

Muslims are in the news all the time. there's a war that will bring up the discussion of it. there's recent terrorism and probable terrorism. there's immigration. there's hostility from 'both' sides. all sorts of reasons why it's in the media all the time.

all sorts of reasons why it's a topic of discussion in everyday life.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

And usually only one reason why 99% of 'Muslim' threads are negative.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

What reason is that?

---------- Post added at 15:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:12 ----------

IN the mainly Muslim enclaves of Derby, near my childhood home, you now see women hidden behind the full-length (burka) robe, their faces completely shielded from view.
In London, I see an increasing number of young girls, aged four and five, being made to wear the hijab (head covering) to school.
Thanks to fundamentalist Muslims and "hate" preachers working in Britain, the veiling of women is suddenly all-pervasive and promoted as a basic religious right. We are led to believe we must live with this in the name of "tolerance".

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/a...an_963096a.jpg


And yet, as a British Muslim woman, I abhor the practice and am calling on the Government here to follow the lead of the French proposal and ban the burka in Britain.
I believe the covering of one's face in public is dangerous and, for security reasons, should be banned from British streets.
Nowhere in the Koran does it state that a woman's face and body must be covered in a layer of heavy black cloth.
Instead, Muslim women should dress modestly, covering their arms and legs.
The burka is an imported Saudi Arabian tradition and the growing number of women veiling their faces in Britain is a sign of a creeping radicalisation which is not just regressive but oppressive and dangerous.
So what should we do in Britain? For decades, Muslim fundamentalists, using human-rights laws, have been allowed to get their own way.
It is now time for ministers and ordinary British Muslims to say enough is enough. For the sake of women and children, the Government here must ban the burka in public places. To do so is not racist, as extremists would have us believe, it is common sense.
In today's society. where we are threatened with terrorist acts, we should demand to see people's faces in public - so that we do not feel scared or frightened. It will only be a matter of time before extremists use the wearing of the burka to breach security and carry out attacks on innocent people.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Useful to have a link to original quote......I;m assuming you are not a British Muslim woman Gary? :)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...he-French.html


Unfortunately not :)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

yes , i was very confused reading that ;) ...or is it gary that's getting confused:D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Spot the man! :)

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/01/33.jpg

The picture was from The Sun

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

the one on the right ..i can see his adams apple :D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

See, you let his mate on the left through! :D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

damn,bet he's got the bomb aswell ;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

A baum?

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/01/34.jpg :D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

it seems the French are turning up the wick with regard to burka's........


Ban women wearing the burka from benefits and public transport, demands French government spokesman

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...#ixzz0d52nKdcR

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

None of them - as they are all Barbie dolls, which you knew (as you probably got it from your favourite tabloid)

You could, of course, shown how it was reported in the Independent, where the doll was part of a collection of multi-cultural versions of Barbie.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

The benefits one. is that because they don't know if it's actually her signing on?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

and here's me thinking the one in the middle had had plastic surgery;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Why?
it was my joke, I'll deliver it how I want ;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

no Gary L its to enforce the law when it comes in

from the article in the mail
"When you ignore rules that make things illegal, like a ban on the burka, you have have some of your rights taken away, like the right to state benefits or using public transport."

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Seems dead, don't go anywhere though, another one will open soon.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

This is just going around in circles now.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I think the argument is whether it's a religious requirement or just a personal choice to hide your face.
we determined that a 'hoody' wasn't anything at all to do with religion but just a personal choice from the 'Chav' culture to hide their face. we even determined that smoking was not religious, just bad for everyones health :)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

i think the question is -is it acceptable to hide your face in public places .

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

That's a very good point papa smurf. I've edited my post.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

yep in a free country it is perfectly acceptable to not show your face if you so wish

and i really cant see how showing it would make us safer anyway

see post #73

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

lol

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Why did they hide their identity?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I don't know, Gary - why don't you ask them?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Because I can't work out who they are. they've hidden their faces.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Is that acceptable?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Err, isn't that what we're trying to determine already? :rolleyes:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

What is your viewpoint on it?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34947550-post28.html

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34947856-post82.html

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34947864-post86.html

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34947874-post89.html

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34948145-post110.html

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34948227-post122.html

Other than what I've already said. I haven't really given it much thought.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Think you'll find that they are wearing PROTECTIVE clothing, this includes a boiler type suit, gloves, helmet, CLEAR face visor,protective boots, stab vest, possibly shin guards and other various padding, all clothing would be fire resistant which would also include a balaclava mask to protect the exposed parts of the face and neck when faced with petrol bombs and chemicals. Not to hide there identity's.

Oh and it would keep you nice and warm on a winters day.

Try doing this when having just a shield and bog standard issue clothing and i think you would opt for the wardrobe these guys are wearing.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Not the burqa, dunderhead - the policeman (but you knew that).

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Of course, none of the Met's finest would countenance removing their numbers from their epaulettes whilst on riot duty, would they? I think the question about disguising identity in these circumstances is a very valid one.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Anyway, other things that would be banned because they cover someone's face in public.

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/BLD.../BLD057886.jpg Wedding veils https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/01/29.jpg Royal Ascot hats http://ratemyhagwon.com/wp-content/u...santa_oath.jpg Santa outfits

http://www.ebka.org/userfiles/image/...atChenwill.jpg bee keepers https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/01/23.gif clowns https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/01/30.jpg The Stig

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I didn't know you wanted to go off topic, and talk about something that has been in another thread that I've discussed with you before, no.

---------- Post added at 21:14 ---------- Previous post was at 21:10 ----------

I think these don't count because as an example with the bride, she only wears it for a few hours in just that one day.

the lady with the lampshade only when she's at the races.

the bee keepers only when they're playing about with bees.

:erm:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

How is it off-topic - they are wearing something that covers their faces in a public place.

Or is it because they is not Muslim?;)

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:14 ----------

So Muslim women could wear burqas in a public place as long as it was only for a couple of hours every so often?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

he doesn't want to discuss the topic hence the silly pictures and the repeated attempts to derail the thread imho .

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I am trying to highlight the stupidity of the proposition, because posters keep stating "it is not because it is the burqa, it is anything that disguises someone's identity". But when I show other things that can disguise someone's identity, it is "off-topic" or "derailing".

As the founder of the UKIP said today in the Times letter page

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I'm getting a trifle confused.

So you don't mind anyone else covering their faces except those who wear Burkhas.

Or you don't want anyone to cover their faces at any time for any reason

Or you don't mind anyone covering their faces provided it's only connected with certain events for short periods of time

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I don't think I've said one way or another. I'm only here to discuss what other people think.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

The sad thing is, he probably believes it.......:erm:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

i will repeat what i said earlier just for Forevers benefit .Why should women wearing a burka be excempt from removing the facial covering in sensitive areas like banks/post offices /airports ect when other people have to remove helmets /hoodies ect

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

It's probably because he is unable to think himself...

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Because the wearing of helmets,hoodies etc are not connected to religious beliefs.:rolleyes:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I think you two will find that Maggy is a she :)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Keep digging the hole..

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

That's what the debate is about. not just in here but all over. is it a religious thing, or is it just a personal choice.

I have posted quotes. one from a muslim herself that says it is choice that is the reason. not religion so much.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

If he cannot 'think himself' why is he able to carry on the debate, countering and answering peoples questions?

Because he does not have a stack of reps maybe? Or maybe because he is not afraid to ask the questions he does?

I may not agree with some of his posts but i do respect him for posting them.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

there are countless quotes on the web from muslims stating that the wearing of a burka is not compulsory it is a choice made by the woman or forced on her by her husband

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I actually agree with you (if done in a sensitive way, like they do at airport security) - I don't agree with the concept of the burqa (I think it represents an oppressive paternalistic society, which devalues women and treats them as possessions), but I also don't agree with telling people what to wear, especially when there doesn't seem to have been mass outbreaks of people wearing burqas committing crimes (one or two, yes, but not to the vast extent of people wearing crash-helmets or ski-masks).

I think Nigel is going for cheap sensationalist headlines, and as the Times put in on the 16th of this month, under the heading "Veil of Ignorance"

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

It's a matter of semantics among Muslims..they have differences of opinions about how they interpret the Koran just as Christians have differences of opinions about interpreting the meanings in the Bible. The fact is some Muslim women regard it as a religious requirement to cover them selves with this garment,others do not.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Ah, but that is introducing shades of cultural gradiations and variances in religious interpretation into the discussion, rather than it being simply right or wrong. ;)

For instance, some Catholic women always cover their heads in Church, but some don't - who is right (or is it a matter of choice)? Most CofE churches allow other Christians to take communion at Mass, but Catholics (the last time I attended), don't.

There are variations in all walks of life and faiths, and trying to make them binary just to back up a proposition just doesn't work.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34948421-post155.html

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I know. and there has to be some that say it's their own choice rather than say she's made to wear it.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

It doesn't matter how much logic or common sense you use, when you're up against the attitude of "I don't like it so ban it" you're never going to get anywhere.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

If it was to be banned what would be the punishment? Would it be a fine or a custodial sentence?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I assume those in favour of the ban would want them deported or sent back to Muslimia.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

yes and there are some that get stoned for not wearing it .
We all seem to be in agreement ..including Maggie;)...that the burka is a voluntary item of clothing in this country so there should be no objection to removal in some places

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

The french will take away their rights. we'll probably give them an ASBO.

---------- Post added at 22:00 ---------- Previous post was at 21:58 ----------

I suppose stoning isn't an option then? :rolleyes:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Whatever floats your boat.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Right then. where do we all sign? ;) :)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

For the secruity aspex we should BAN the burka, If a motorcyclist enters a building for secruity reasons, he MUST take his helmet off, so why can't the burka be removed in the street for the same reason.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

[QUOTE=Arthurgray50@blu;34948468]For the secruity aspex we should BAN the burka, If a motorcyclist enters a building for secruity reasons, he MUST take his helmet off, so why can't the burka be removed in the street for the same reason.[/QUOTE]

not in the street Arthur thats going to far

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Isn't it usually that case that buildings that ban motorcycle helmets are places like banks which can set their own rules, and hence why can't they set their own rules with regards to the burkha?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Because you can't discriminate on the basis of religion but you can on the basis of mode of transport to the bank.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Do you agree that hats and hoodies should also be banned from the street too?

Also have you heard of many people committing crimes while disguised under a burkha?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

already addressed that Russ and there has been quite a few in recent years examples in previous posts

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Voluntary removal under the right and correct system and in the RIGHT place..Say at the airport or banks or hospital or clinics..

But not a complete ban as Farage and Arthur are advocating.

from the links provide in the OP

The latter quote really does imply it's a Muslim thing in particular..:erm:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Did you address how many crimes have been committed by people wearing hoodies and hats whilst not having calls for those items to be banned?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Difficult one really i would have thought, not having the official figures to hand nor of course for those commiting crimes whilst women wearing burkas or men posing as a burka clad women. Wheres those fiures when you need them.

AS has already been stated that certain shopping precincts,shops,banks, petrols stations have been know to ban the wearing of hoodies/hats, again thought those figures are difficult to come by.. any help out there collecting them.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

the comparison i used was banks /posts offices .I used these because we already have bans on these items in such places so i was trying to make the point that criminals are now using the burka as a alternative
I am fully aware that crimes are still commited with hoodies and crash helmets ,like street muggings ,we can never stop this but what we can do is minimalize the opportunities criminals have .We also have to concider places were facial recognition is vital like at airports ,is the person entering /leaving the country realy who it says on the passport?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

By the way maybe we should ban baseball caps as well because they hide faces on the CCTV. :scratch:
















































By the way I'm not actually being serious..:D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I'll make my position clear on this - I think the majority of anti-burkha posters on here have their view simply because it's based in Islam, nothing more.

I'm all for the banning of any types of clothing for security purposes in banks, airports etc whether a burkha, helmet, hat etc

But banning it from all public places? That's just pure Islamiphobia. There is no evidence to suggest wearing something which completely covers someone's face in public creates a significant security risk. If you insist on burkhas being banned in public then you have to agree to helmets, hats, opened umbrellas and hoodies being banned too otherwise you're on the way to supporting an 1984 type state.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I'm not for the total ban either, security risk yes it can be as already pointed out, it's difficult to identify a person wearing one, the implications of getting there ID must be a absolute nightmare. Of course asking anyone for there id will cause some discomfort but to have the added problem of,"You've insulted my religion,beliefs" whatever is another weapon that THE extremist will use it to there advantage, so people want to counter that by saying,"well ban the burka then".

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34948506) I'll make my position clear on this - I think the majority of anti-burkha posters on here have their view simply because it's based in Islam, nothing more.

i aggree with that Russ ,
incidently there was a case a while back concerning Shabina Begum that addressed this issue .Eventually she lost her case, i'm not sure if a precedent was set but a ruling was made that

"The legal status of Islamic dress in schools was clarified by the Shabina Begum case, where the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords ruled that freedom to manifest religious beliefs was not absolute, and could be restricted"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab_by_country

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Its quite simple if you refuse to remove your facial covering being it a motorcycle helmet, hat, veil or any other garment that may be covering your face when going into a place that requires your face to be seen then you should be disallowed from entry.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

That's exaggerating a little (well, quite a lot) - there have been a couple in the last few years; there have been lots involving hoodies, crash helmets, and ski-masks.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I would tend to agree on that point, Moldova. Unfortunately, some people in this thread seem to be trying to suggest that there is something uniquely threatening about the burkha, such that it should be banned outright. That, to me, is draconian and unacceptable in a free and democratic society.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Funnily enough I'd bet a lot of people calling for the ban say the same, except they'd add the word oppressive to your list.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

It may well be oppressive, but is it the job of the State to legislate against culture and tradition? That's a whole different can of worms than issues of security.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I think it may well be the states job when those cultures and traditions go against everything this country has stood for and in more recent times has made specific laws to protect people from being oppressed, discriminated against and coerced into doing things against their will.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

That works both ways.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I don't understand?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

As I said in my post above, the should be no exceptions purely for security reasons but otherwise it does not bother me what they want to wear.

This is supposed to be a free country so we should have need to ban this style of dress.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

france will just ban it outright and refuse to take any crap from the freedom brigade

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Well that's France who already are trying to ban this item of clothing..They really do have a poor relationship with the Muslims in their country so I don't see why we should copy them..

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

IMHO The issue of complete bans has only arisen because of the problems of partial/selective bans. You can ban the wearing of motorcycle helmets in banks etc but not the burkha etc, although the reasons for any ban would be the same, ie concealment of faces. It ends up with the only solution being a complete ban.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

even without a complete ban people wearing the burkha will start to be viewed suspiciously just as someone walking down the street in a balaclava is assumed to be a bank robber

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

But in the situation like a bank you only have to refuse permission to enter.

A complete ban on the wearing of a burkha anywhere in Britain is a complete overkill which is what is envisioned in this thread.not the banning in certain institutions.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

how do you refuse a bank robber permission to enter a bank ?
it's getting into the bank in the first place that the burkha is most useful whereas someone in a balaclava approaching a bank is going to raise suspicion

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

And what would happen to anyone who refused somebody entry on those legitimate grounds? It is supporters of the burkha who would complain about the refusal of entry that are inadvertently(?) creating the climate where a complete ban becomes the only option.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

And would banning the burkha in banks not have the same effect as banning any other headwear that covers the face?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

In France many banks have twin airlock doors you have to be buzzed to get in or out...

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Actually, the problems with the burkha are relatively easy to overcome. Just ensure burkha wearing women are served only by women..

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

you are correct imo ,but a complete ban on the burkha brings it's own problems ,what about other suspicious items of clothing such as the aforementioned balaclava or hoody or even a scarf

---------- Post added at 18:45 ---------- Previous post was at 18:39 ----------

yes it will ..no effect at all ,bank robbers still wear them to rob banks but anyone wearing a balaclava or a crash helmet in a bank will arouse suspicion (usually) and possibly the cashiers willl set the alarms off so banks would have to adopt this with burkhas .entering a bank with a burkha on and the alarm goes off