Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Do me a favour, union ballots have more regulations than any other part of our democracy, the amount of time the strike took to organise and the time scale of the redundancies coincided, if the rules were infringed here then you can say that every vote this country has ever taken is illegitimate, trouble is when people try and point this out in the courts the cases are thrown out with cries of vexatious litigation, the judge's decision was political and imo Unite are right, a very sad day for democracy.


That's the thing with strikes, they aren't designed to be convenient, more to cause maximum disruption, besides there is only one group of people to be blamed for their timescale, the people that wrecked the negotiations in late October and that'd be old Willy Walsh.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Hang on Hang on, ;) You seem to be moving the goalposts from your earlier post Chris

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34929581-post87.html

It's not black and white in employment law as you alluded to in that post . The judge can, and indeed should, take into account whether any irregularities would have had an affect on the overall outcome of a ballot.

As I've already said there will be always be irregularities because of the way things are. That is why it is reasonable in such instances for everything to be considered.

Assuming you agree with the expert you earlier quoted, it is reasonable for me to say that the judge in this instance has been unreasonable. :)

Bear in mind Chris the majority of workplaces could have ballots with less than 100 people taking part. In many places where there is a high turnover of staff it isn't that uncommon for a union, using the most up to date figures it has, to issue ballot paper to a far higher percentage of non-compliant individuals than there was in this action. That is why, imho, the judgement is wrong, undemocratic and a dangerous precedent.

---------- Post added at 17:48 ---------- Previous post was at 17:39 ----------

I think, after years of management bullying and refusing to negotiate, the tactic was to get management talking to them. They have been trying very hard to talk, but Walsh sticks by his mantra of "negotiation doesn't get you anywhere".

We are not talking about left wing militants trying to bring the country to it's knees, we're talking about middle Engladn people with a genuine, unselfish, grievance.

I suspect that the reason there was such a high turnout and such an overwhelming vote for the strike was that they fully expected Walsh to come to his sense and enter some dialogue with Unite - without the precondition that his position isn't changing. Nobody really expected the strike to go ahead because it would have been so crippling to BA.

I think the high court decision is actually detrimental to BA because we now face a further period of uncertainty which will affect ticket sales while the numpty Walsh perceives this as a victory. :(

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

This ongoing dispute has now taken the Stupid route. The union has said they could use the Human rights act to sue BA over the lose of the cabin crews perks :rolleyes:

so first the cabin crews tried to bring BA to its knee's now they are going to drag BA through the court of human rights. One way to lose your jobs when you make the company lose millions.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Bus...Been_On_Strike

If they do use Human rights over this it just dilutes the human rights act even further

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Mmmm - free/discounted flights being a "basic human right"; don't think so.....

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Fully agree with you. I feel the union are trying a bit of ryanair type publicity

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

if that's the case we could all claim freebies from our companies
unite aren't doing themselves any favours are they ,any support they had from the public will go up in a puff of aviation fumes

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

If I understand correctly you are only prevented from firing someone due to strike action if your singling them out. It's ok to fire the entire lot? So why can't they do that and employ staff from other airlines who will presumably be quick to train, security cleared, and jump at the chance to move to the highest paying employer?

It's not as if this industrial action will end any time soon maybe it's time to bite the unpleasant bullet.

---------- Post added at 21:24 ---------- Previous post was at 21:23 ----------

The day their ban on striking was overturned they rode past my office (it's not too far from the high court) in a open top bus cheering and waving unite flags. :rolleyes:

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Sorry but they are extracting the urine, its time the termination of employment started.

Greed in this employment market has to end NOW.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Seems to me that when disputes become this intractable both sides should replace their chief negotiators, by this stage its only human nature that it has become personal with neither side wanting to lose face.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

don't we still have ACAS? or aren't they involved ?

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

On that same page there was this which seems to confirm there still involved

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

that'll learn me to not read links :dunce:

mayby they should have been bought in earlier or is that considered humiliation by BA/unite?

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Even if you only dip into it, this mammoth thread is an eye opener...

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Is this a joke? If they did that then they would be singling out an entire group of employees.

---------- Post added at 15:36 ---------- Previous post was at 15:35 ----------

How so? There is a sepcific article that relates to being in a Union and not being victimised for lawfully striking.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

As I understand it you can only fire people for striking if the strike was not legal in the first place. This makes sense as in any circumstances if you are supposed to be working and don't you'll face the sack.

I don't know all the laws but for a strike to be legal then certain things must happen. Intention to strike has to be given in advance. Members must be balloted, etc. Once a strike is organised legally, then you can't be fired.

If however you decide to strike without doing all that (i.e. if you decide to do it spontaneously - called a wildcat strike) then some/all can be fired.

however if you do fire some and not others you can be sure lawyers would be eyeing up some discrimination lawsuits regardless who you fire.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

As far as I understand where all sides presently stand, the initial dispute and sticking points have been sorted, its just this withdrawal of travel perks which seem to be the stumbling block.
I really don't understand why Willy Walsh has taken this action, it was never a part of the original dispute it appears to be a malicious action on Walsh's part.
Whatever airline you work for they all have generous staff discounts, partly because if you are flexible when you travel this perk costs the airline absolutely bupkiss.
So surely the question is has Walsh got an ulterior motive? either way the airline is suffering, losing millions and more importantly losing prestige.
Its worth remembering we are not talking about far left militants here, these are educated men and women who genuinely believe they have a fair grevance.

I can hardly believe that you of all people Damien believe the answer to a strike is to sack the entire workforce if management fails to get its way, holy crap why not go back to Victorian work practices?:shocked:

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

I believe the new TUPE regulations(2006) may cover that one although it is a bit of a grey area

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

In a time were unemployment is rising, employees not recieving pay rises or taking pay cuts, and worst case losing there jobs.

Do you think that BA should back down then?

They should count themselves bloody lucky to have a job. IMHO BA should say "Strike and your fired".

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

wether you agree with the strike or not in these times employees rights have to protected more than ever .Empoyers know that they have plenty of unemployed people out there to choose from so the threat of sacking is hanging over empoyees heads all the time and quite frankly an awfull lot of companies are readily using that threat to remove bonuses and force people to take pay cuts

Strike and your fired is not an option for BA or any company

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Perhaps they do count themselves lucky which is why they are fighting to keep their jobs and conditions. Got any other opinions, like scrapping health and saftey in the work place or employing minors?

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

So striking in a resession, in an industry which has suffered (especially after the clousure of european air space for 6 days, which cost BA £20m per day http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ption-activity) is acceptable?

So what will they do if BA was to fold? they would struggle to find employment in avaition ever again.

As for H&S they should scrapp lots of it (I was a H&S rep for the comany I worked for) as a lot if it is completly pointless.

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

Being out of work I'ld be happy to for there so called "small" salary.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

what about workers who have a genuine reason to strike ,sacking BA workers for striking would mean changing the law which would affect all workers ...including you

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

They 'll probably go back to the Agency way of doing business.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

this is true ,also true for other industries i have noticed within the construction industry there are a lot more agency workers on the sites

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

[QUOTE]
Of course it's acceptable if they have held a legal ballot.


BA wont fold, if there was any chance of it they'd be round the table talking

Which bits, the bit that saved 70 000 serious industrial accidents and deaths a year? The H&S act is one of the very best pieces of legislation ever brought in despite what the tabloids whould have us believe in recent years.

They aren't striking over money and if all those moaning about them being well paid concentrated more on improving their own T's&C's rather than being envious the whole industry might be a bit fairer for all.

---------- Post added at 19:54 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

They have a genuine reason to strike, they wouldn't do it if they didn't.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

I've posted often enough about Walsh's tactics. His intent is, and always has been, to break the union. There have been several occasions when there has almost been a deal brokered only for Walsh to scupper it.

I'm not a big fan of Simpson or Woodley of Unite but they've showed remarkable restraint at times in the way that they, and their members, have been treated by this obnoxious little sh--.

There's cleverer people than me can see the potential damage Walsh is doing.
A link I posted in another anti-union thread back in March that is still relevant:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...cademics-walsh

"The wider significance of a triumph of unilateral management prerogative would be a widening of the representation gap in UK employment relations, and a further erosion of worker rights and of that most precious of commodities – democracy." (my enbolden)

I'm assuming that some of these experts in industrial relations who signed this open letter know what they're talking about.;)

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Well on a personal case.

We had a Air Traffic Control cabinet which had to be moved from the first floor to the factory floor, I spent two hours with another safety rep walking the route the cabinet would have to take (Risk Assesment), including a lift (the cabinet was close to the weight limit of it).

Once this was done we went through the route with two guys who moved the cabinet, this took 10 minutes.

The cost 2 hours time of safety reps £45, the guys who moved £5.

IMHO every rick assesment was pointless, common sense was not aloud.

Plus the ones on food:

On peanuts, "May Contain Nuts" (peanuts aren't actually nuts, there legumes (like peas and beans))

On McDonalds Hot apple pie, and hot drink packaging, "Warning contents may be hot"

There are loads of usless H&S rules, that have turned this country into a nanny state.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

What cost if the assessment isn't taken?

Two guys move the cabinet without the RA. OOOps Can't get it round the corner of the corridor..... fire route blocked.... fill in your own scenario here..

That is the WHOLE point of risk assessment. If the assessment concludes that there is no risk then the exercise has been as worthwhile as the RA that suggests there may be a danger of the ... whatever... The risk is then categorised for the level of risk..

ffs... that is the process that we now have to go through because, historically, employers have been so gung-ho about the H&S of their employees (Employers:that's those folk who advertise in the likes of the Daily Mail so they can twist the minds of their...doh ... reader... Employess: Dems the ones who we need H&S regulations for so that they don't get, fried, burnt, crippled...... and even in 2010 KILLED)

I could be really tedious now and quote you some horrendous figures but I'm sure if you really wanted a true picture by now you'd have resorted to Google.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

These are the daily mails favourites, the same old tired examples they peddle out to suit their agenda,I doubt these instructions are even H&S related I'd hazard a guess its companies covering their backsides in case some chancer tries to sue them.
As regards BA workers feeling lucky they have a job dear oh dear that is so condescending, what about Walsh has he got no responsibility for extending this strike?
And finally are you really saying that any employee should not have the right to strike in a recession?
The people in question are not Neanderthal morons who felt like a few weeks off so went on strike!! this dispute has been in the works for years now until finally after all reasonable options were exhausted over 90% of the cabin crew voted for a legitimate strike. Maybe you should be asking why Walsh is being so intransigent over re-instating the travel concessions? the original dispute has been settled as far as I can see, the reason the dispute is continuing only Walsh can say.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

[QUOTE=TheDaddy;35065010]
sorry poor choice of words on my part ,the members in the BA strike do feel they have a genuine case for striking ,doesn't realy matter if i or others agree or disagree with the reasons it was balloted and is legal so the members have the right to strike ,and imo that right must be maintained more so in difficult times

Hom3er,
working on building sites as i do i have a great deal to do with H&S and sometimes they do seem a bit ott and yes they do contradict their own rules sometimes ,and yes i do winge about them sometimes ...but without them workplace deaths/injuries would be through the roof .

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

Thats a MAJOR fallacy in your argument, 90% of BA CC did NOT vote for a strike. ONLY 90% of BASSA members voted to strike. members directly represented by UNITE and (of cause) none union members ACCEPTED the terms. hens why ONLY heathrow flights were affected by the strike (gatwick and london city bases were completely unaffected (except knock on affects)).

From what i understand WW has no problem with UNITE and is happy to work with them. its is UNITES far left (they work very closely with the socialist worker) origination BASSA (which is a legacy union that merged with UNITE, while keeping its own identity many years ago).

It should also bee noted that the staff travel perk HAS been reinstated (in a limited fashion) to strikers who accept the current agreement. Renistating FULL travel perk would cause MORE industrial relations issues then it solves. The VAST majority of BA staff ditest the strikers and do not what to see BASSA "win".

I strongly suggest reading the topic on pprnune that was posted above to see how the rest of the BA staff feel about the strikers as that site is populated by LOTS of BA staff members.

Re: British Airways cabin crew vote for Christmas strike
 

It's just about over. It's amazing what can happen when both sides are prepared to negotiate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13373638