Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I wasn't in any position. you are the only surviving one :D

If you put the 'terrorism' part of it to one side. we still have a guilty murderer no matter how you look at it. it seems to me that people are acting like there's a reason for why he did it, (which there is) but when they find that reason it's going to be a reason that we have to feel sorry for the man.

That's just my opinion of it. none of it is fact or real.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

If he wasn't muslim, there wouldn't be a 'terrorism' part to it in the first place.

On the bright side he's apparently talking to medical staff so at least we have a rare opportunity to know what was/is going through his mind.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

It looks like he tried to reach al-Qaeda months before he went on the kill.
Link

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

So can we confirm it was a terrorist attack killing American soldiers on American soil yet?

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

So lets get this straight. Was he a muslim or not? and was this a terrorist attack or not? facts only please. Im really tired having read through 5 pages and not seen any facts yet.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

The shooter was a devout muslim.

He was an officer in the US Army.

He had attended a mosque that had in the past had, had a militant imam.

Three of the nineteen hijackers had been members of the same mosque before the 911 attacks.

The shooter was allegedly one a watch list as having tried to contact islamic terrorists prior to his attack.

Up to you to decide if he was a terrorist, or stressed out soldier flapping about going in theater....

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

:D

Is there a prize for guessing who is the back end of the horse?

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I think that's Gary L. ;)

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Only because you get the part of the cow. every year ;)

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

That's cruel - Gary is not the back end of an ass, or the front end of an ass; that must make him no end of an ass.....:D

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I'd be a bit careful about resting any kind of judgement on the facts as emerged - Saturday's Times was plastered with pictures of the 'Mom' who brought down the shooter while being badly wounded herself, but it's now being reported that Hasan was really stopped by another policeman who was a) male, b) not wounded and c) black.

Not that that would have had any bearing on the information issued to the media.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1004042423

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati..._says_his.html

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

What is it about army bases atm :(

According to news24 the officers were shot whilst sitting in a coffee shop, 4 dead

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

Turns out it was a USAF base

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8385421.stm

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Near the air base.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

In America, the biggest major problem is GUNS, and everyone is allowed to carry them, BUT if murder is commited they have another major item its called THE DEATH PENALTY, which is carried out, as with this country, someone who is murdered in this country gets LIFE and is looked after by the TAXPAYERS of this country, how stupid is that.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Doesn't stop them killing each other though, does it?

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Very true Flyboy, but seeing as anyone is capable of killing at any time. Stopping one person murdering another is virtually impossible.... On the other hand. If murder is punished with death by hanging/electrocution/lethal injection/gas. Then if found guilty by a jury of their peers, then a murderer will not ever murder again....

Before we get the usual "but what if we execute an innocent man" argument. Innocents die in droves every year. While the number of murderers in prisons increases year by year. So pick a better argument against the death penalty....

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Sorry EoB but I cannot think of a better reason against the death penalty than all those found innocent of crimes that they would have been executed for under a death penalty.We have had too many reversal of sentences in the last 15 years alone to show this.

Besides which how would you feel if you were unlucky enough to be one of those innocents condemned and executed.That it's all evened out in the end?:shocked:

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Killing people to show its wrong to kill people is a bit hypocritical do you not think? Those that commit murder and are found guilty should serve a full life sentence and it should be till they die unless they are proven innocent. Keeping them in prison is more civilised and after all we are meant to be better than animals are we not.

As Maggy said what if it was loved one of yours wrongly convicted and the last thing you see them do is twitch at the end of a rope or shake with convulsions in an electric chair? and who do you think you are to try and cut off a whole group of people who are strongly against the death penalty because of miscarrages of justice?

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Or perhaps you should pick a better argument against the 'innocent man' argument.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Oh come on, not even you could believe that is a reasonable argument. Just because innocent people die, it is a justification to kill even more innocent people?

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I just deleted the couple of paragraphs I'd written in reply, but realised I'd just be wasting everyones time. A minority of posters believe the death penalty needs to be brought back. A majority of posters on these boards believe otherwise.... Diametrically opposed arguments, and never the twain shall meet.... Anyway, I'll be trying not to post further in regard to this topic, in any future threads, as I'd just be wasting the pixels.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I can't bring myself to advocate the death penalty but perhaps fewer people would call for it if a life sentence actually meant LIFE.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I would agree with the death penalty if it was full proof and it was 100% effective but it isn't, as the above post LIFE should mean LIFE.

The best way to treat a criminal stick them in a cell and they should just be given bread and water, instead of a TV and three cooked meals a day, that would make them wonder if jail is a easy sentence.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Oh look another death penalty thread :rolleyes:

Anyway seeing the usual 'What about the innocents that would be killed in droves' argument has been thrown into the mix I'll throw in my usual reply to these threads.

What if someone who is 100%, beyond any doubt guilty of murder would you still be against the death penalty.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Yes. Because I believe in rehabilitation and the possibility of restitution. None of that is possible if the murderer is dead.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

the only way I would accept they were beyond any shadow of a doubt guilty would be if I seen them do it with my own eyes

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Seeing as that is supposed be the case in all cases, I can't see why that would need to be a factor.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Reasonable doubt in no way means 100% certain.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Beyond all reasonable doubt is the threshold for criminal convictions. As mentioned thats different from absolutely guaranteed no doubt.

There are some people that will never be released due to the nature of their crimes, there are some that fall into the 100% guaranteed guilty category.

For them I've got absolutely no qualms about them being put to death rather than kept in fairly comfortable conditions at great cost for the rest of their lives.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Sadly even when we did have the death penalty people were still murdering other people...It wasn't a deterrent then and it wouldn't be now.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Things were different then. what never worked for one generation could work for another.
we have no real deterrent as it is now. we all know that there's not many vacancies at the prisons. and we do fines by long term small installments.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

What 'things' were different?

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

The last time the death penalty was used was in 1964. that's 45 years ago.
society itself was different.

nobody knows that it wouldn't be a deterrent in todays society.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

What was different about 'society itself'? In particular, could you mention the things that you think are relevant to murder and the death penalty.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Peoples thinking? knowing that you can't get drugs when you're dead?

I'm just saying you don't know that just because it didn't work once, that it won't work 45 years later.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

If the death penalty isn't a deterrent in the US, why should it be one here?

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I'm sure it's a deterrent to some. just not all. we aren't America.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I will never understand why people have this assumption that if a murderer is jailed until he dies, who pays for him whilst he is serving time - US in taxes.

If a person commits murder in the States, is an almost certainty he will face the death penalty.

In this silly country, a murderer gets life, which l believe is 15 years, unless the judge says otherwise, WE pay for him to live in a life of Luxury, FREE, everything he/she wants gets, We should have the death penalty brought back to deal with killers - l would pull the plug.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

If people in America commit an offence that warrants the death penalty and its carried out, they will not commit the same offence again. I`m all for it if its proved beyond a Reasonable doubt.
In this country of ours, there is NO DETERRENT!!!!!!! People can do what they want without any fear on the whole of any loss of liberty or anything to make them think twice of the consequences of being caught.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Not true, Arthur. The national average in the USA (well, in 2004) is that 2.5% of convicted murderers are on Death Row.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Well abortion was illegal but women still had back street abortions.

Homosexuals were imprisoned for the act of homosexuality.

Children were caned in school.

Only married women were allowed to be proscribed the pill.

The Krays were torturing and murdering people.

Yep life was different alright...;)

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Okay, let's put it this way. How would you quantify 100% certain?

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Yep. completely different.
another thing was the chances of being caught we're very slim so the deterrent was ignored if you like.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

To add to that, the death penalty isn't law in every American state and for the amount of time some prisoners stay on death row, it might as well just be a life sentence. There are a number who've been on death row for decades.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

What the ...........?

And there is no way of knowing that it would either, so best left alone then really. :rolleyes:

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

If you had the cane at school, it made you think twice about doing the same thing again Maggie!.
The krays mainly went after their own kind, they took care of the situation if a woman was beaten up or raped. I`m not saying they were angels but the east end was safer when they were around.
So called Back street abortions still happen today, but now, its called the morning after pill.
And "proscribed" is actually spelt prescribed. ;)

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

That's what I said.

---------- Post added at 22:10 ---------- Previous post was at 22:07 ----------

They took the deterrent away, and it all went berserk :)

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

But the complaint against the cane in school was it was the same few idiots who still got caned,again and again and again and again........it wasn't a complete deterrent..anymore than hanging was.You all avoided my mention of the Krays...they weren't scared of hanging, in fact they weren't scared of anyone.Their record on National service is a real eye opener.

---------- Post added at 00:19 ---------- Previous post was at 00:06 ----------

Oh the morning after pill is not back street abortions that's stretching it a great deal..and very emotive.

I already explained about how caning was only a deterrent for some of us..there were those that never learned.:rolleyes:

And The Krays were still murderers who weren't scared of being hung...it doesn't matter whom their victims were.Safer?Not really it was just certain crimes were less reported.In fact there was less news and it certainly wasn't available 24/7. Tv and Radio were shut down for most of the evening.Only two TV stations.So there was less concentrated reporting of the crimes taking place.
I very much doubt that Brady and Hindley were even thinking about being caught even less that they weren't going to hang..

And then there were still those who committed murder despite the chances of being caught, tried and hung.It may have deterred some but not all.

Proscribed,precsribed..not often I use the wrong word.;)

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I thought the complaint was that it was cruel and un PC.

They were too far up their own bums to be bothered.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

No.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Err I wouldn't that's why I said reasonable doubt...

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Then possibly your meaning may become clearer in the future.

But then again maybe not.:erm:

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I doubt it too.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Weren't they one of the last to to be imprisoned in the the Tower of London, because of insubordination during their National Service?

---------- Post added at 11:04 ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 ----------

In fact, on some days, the report would say, "There is no news today."

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8388396.stm

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Perhaps that good old policy, to shoot first and ask questions later, is not such a good idea at all, then.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

You're pathetic.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

How very adult and construcive of you.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

I wasn't going to waste the time and effort but if you're going to cast aspersions my maturity I might as well.

1. He ambushed 4 police officers in cold blood. And you seriously think he would come quietly and explain his motives for it?

2. Police believe he was mortally wounded from the cafe. It still not clear whether he died as result of that wound or another shoot-out. Despite that, you with no experience, knowlege or vested interest in the matter decide that they were wrong to act in self-defense. Whilst sitting safely in a different country.

3. The police have arrested 3 people who have been accused of helping him - perhaps one of those will illuminate you with regards to Clemmons' motives you are so interested.

4. Your comment that the police are gung-ho, persumably because they are Americans and you despise them, can easily be considered racist.

5. 4 entirely innocent people have lost their lives whilst trying to serve and protect the public and you're more interested in persuing some kind of vendetta against them.

Realise why you are pathetic now? Or just going to ignore what I say and harp on with more of your rubbish?

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

And maybe asking someone who has already shot 4 people down in cold blood isn't the best person to ask nicely to come along and when they don't sometimes, just sometimes force might have to be used.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

From the BBC story linked earlier
Doesn't sound like "shooting first and asking questions later" to me.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Shooting some one in the back? I am not sticking up for him but wasn't he only a suspect at the time of death?

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

A very, very strong suspect with a proven history of violence. Sometimes you can't take any chances.

What if he was running towards where he had stashed a weapon?
What if he fired a shot randomly over his shoulder towards the cop?

There is nothing in the rules saying you can only shoot someone when they are facing you. If they are a threat then you take action to remove the threat.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Wasn't part of the Tony Martin case that he wasn't in danger as they were running away? Anyway I don't give a damn particularly as they got the right guy.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

And what happened to innocent until proven guilty. This man had not been through due process, so I don't think that police officers making the decisions for the courts is really the best way to proceed, or perhaps you think that summary justice is okay.

---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:33 ----------

There was no trial. Henceforth there was no presentation of evidence, there was no defence and not jury. It is not up to the police to be executioners of people who not even been found guilty.

And you have no idea whether this man killed the people he was accused of. Seeing as there was no trial and the suspect is dead, it is impossible now to find out.

These people are not accused of the murders. They have been arrested on different offences.

.

That is probably the most disgusting nonsense I have ever had the displeasure to read on these forums.

There has been no evidence presented to a court of law to prove that this person committed these crimes. Or do you thin all suspects of murder should be shot on sight?

Still with the peurile and ridiculous insults. Grow up!

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

But they don't really know that, do they. As you said, he was only a suspect oat the ti,me. Since when has been down to the police to decide who lives or dies. The man was running away, he was shot in the back.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Flyboy, I agree with you on some things, and disagree on others - on this I have to disagree with you.

The police were looking for an armed and dangerous killer, who had murdered four officers - they came across the suspect, and shouted at him to stop, but he continued running; they were in a no-win situation, and if they had let him go and he had killed others (civvies or cops), they would have been lambasted for incompetence.

They acted, I believe, appropriately in the circumstances, and under their terms of engagement (or whatever rules US police use) - which is completely different from being "judge and jury".

What should they have done in the circumstances, do you think? (at 2:45am in the morning, stopping a stolen car, hunting a known killer).

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Summary justice...

Maybe if the PM comes back and it shows he was executed in cold blood then I'll agree with you.

As it was I live in the real world, not the happy, clappy world of niceness and peace some exist in and am well aware there are some exceptionally violent and dangerous individuals out there.

If someone had killed 4 cops in cold blood (yes not convicted but sadly courts don't work that quickly, I'll assume he did it) and I was an armed cop who was checking out a stolen car and he appeared behind me and didn't do what I told him to do then I'd be reaching for my gun as well.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Worth remembering that he was armed as well, with one of the dead officers guns.

Re: 'Thirteen shot dead' at US army base
 

Update on this story from the Grauniad

Which is considerably different being shot whilst running away.