re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

That only applies for single instances of grievances with a company, when 2 thirds of voting union members have a problem then that just doesn't work.
Same could be said for you, if you don't like our methods, jump ship. If there is no alternative available to you use your voice and complain to RM.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

All it means is that 2 thirds of the voting union members believe that they're right. The fact that they believe they're right, doesn't necessarily make them so.

As for me 'jumping ship' if I don't like the strikers methods.....that's a great idea. I'll tell all the companies that send me mail that they should use an alternative mail delivery service shall I? Oh, hang on, that's right.....of course, they're not going to listen to me are they? No..... So actually I get no choice at all, the mechanisms that the RM workers are using to show their displeasure are directly affecting me and there's absolutely bugger all I can do about it - they continue to impose their will upon me, regardless of the effect that it has on me, and there's nothing I can do - I am completely at their mercy.

As for writing to RM - seriously.....they're no more likely to listen to me than the unions are.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

you sound like a room full of opera singers warming up me me me me me me

these people don't want to strike and lose money its the last resort .

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

It's democracy - that's how it works.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Well, unfortunately we now live in a society where if you don't look out for yourself nobody else is going to. If you stop watching your own back before you know it there will be some person, or some group of people, shafting you because the only thing they're thinking about is themselves.

So what were the other 'resorts' that they resorted to?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

If we're paying for the service then I think we have the right to think "me me me".

I'm sure that'll get lots of sympathy from people who will be out of work this christmas and desperate for a job.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Yep, that's exactly how a democracy works - it still doesn't mean that they're right.

When do the rest of us get a vote? Or, if it's only union members that get to vote, how do those of us affected by the strike join the union and therefore get a vote?

A democracy is when everybody gets an equal right to vote on a decision, I don't remember anybody asking me if I minded the postal workers going on a strike that would affect me.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I used to support many workers that striked but not anymore why simple because i would love a job any job and right now i cannot get one nor at the rate i am going downhill will be in a position to be attractive to any employer. So there are thousands of you with jobs and your not happy and your going to strike right at the time of year you know damn well it will hinder and hurt people most and you want my support dream on. I have already had one specialist appointment cancelled because RM lost my letter and have now binned postal appointments so i never have to miss one again.

Times move on technology is now playing a bigger part in many many jobs and people have lost jobs because of that but you can't stem the tide by spitting out your dummy and striking. As for service my postman on average puts 10-12 letters through my door that are wrong how is that RM's fault it is the individual postman at fault because he doesn't bother to read what he is putting through my door.

We have had parcels stolen and damaged because posite leaves them in plain sight outside no matter what the weather. So please don't tell me it is all nasty RM managements fault because it isn't certain postal workers thought they had a job for life always protected by their powerful union and wollah like many have had to face reality and are being asked to accept things ain't staying the same.

But simple logic (i like simple) says to me company is in trouble needs more money so it's workers go off on strike annoy a vast amount of people who then seek alternatives company loses contracts\trade and therefore has to make more cuts thus kicking off another merry go round of strikes.

I know RM workers don't like hearing it but you are lucky right now to have a job i know many damn good people who are struggling on benefit trying everything they can to get a job so if your really that unhappy and don't like it do yourself a favour do us the public a favour and leave the job. Let someone else take it (they will not have trouble replacing people) who won't moan year in year out about this and that and woe is me.

Because many like me don't support you anymore in fact we're getting sick and tired of hearing about workers striking as well as gaining the uncanny knack of predicting when you will strike because you've done it so many times before..

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

:clap:

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Rob,

It's how modern union democracy works.

A "democracy" is not defined simply as a matter of "when everybody gets an equal right to vote on a decision".

Do you remember anyone asking you to vote on whether you minded going to war with Iraq?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Does it also involve dragging innocent people in to it who have no say in the outcome? The same people who get dragged in to rail disputes too? And anyone else who decides to teach their employer a thing or two?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Obviously, yes.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

There goes public sympathy, driving away....

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Here's hoping it's wearing its seatbelt.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

That's different again: representative democracy. We didn't vote on Iraq, but those who did, were put in a position to vote by us, to cast votes on our behalf.

There's nothing representative about the workings of the trade union movement. They're single-interest pressure groups, pure and simple, and need to stop carrying on as if they are deserving of the level of political and economic influence that they clearly feel entitled to.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

there goes your sympathy [not that you had any ] one voice among millions ,hardly representative of the public at large ,is it really such a big deal in your life to have the mail disrupted ? .

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Yes.

We haven't had our mail undisrupted from the last set of strikes they held.

Now who is acting selfishly? Just because all some people get in the mail is a few bills that gives them an excuse to get out of paying that everyone else should have to make do.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

All we need is to get the proportional in front of representative to get something resembling democracy, but that's taking things slightly off-topic...

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Chris, with all due respect that's a gross misrepresentation of both scenarios - but typical of your anti union stance as evidenced in this thread.

The trade union movements are representative of their membership and, strangely enough, they allow their membership to vote on matters which affect them and their lives - a concept which appears strangely alien to Governmental representative "democracy".

This is the same Governmental representative democracy which now sees proposals for benefit cuts, a reduction in the numbers on benefits and a move towards better up-skilling for employment - what employment? Have they missed the recession they presided over?

As for the postal workers it's their jobs at risk, they are entitled to take democratic strike action should they elect to do so. A democratic right won, and enshrined indeed, in part by the sacrifices of those made in previous wars.

My heart bleeds for those of you on here who would happily have men and women turfed onto the dole queues of the nation because your letters / delivery service being be disrupted for a period as a result of them exercising a democratic right is just a bit too much for you to handle. The very same type of right I hasten to add that most of you are quite happy - in the guise of representative democracy - to allow men and women to sacrifice / waste their lives in a foreign land because you think Government representative democracy is a better democracy than union democracy.

Most of the ill informed on here would do well to read this.

The Government own Royal Mail and are driving forward the cost cutting and modernisation. The very same Government that bailed out the banks (with your money). The very same banks who have been shafting you all with legally questionable charges and insurance policies. The very same banks who brought about the bonus culture that has led to the worst recession in living memory - but still retain their jobs, bonuses and incentives.

Royal Mail - and to a greater degree its employees - are the latest potential victims in a laughably deplorable Government's attempt at asset stripping and off loading what was once a great British company / service.

That anyone would be small / narrow minded enough to think that these men and women have decided to strike just to inconvenience the public is a sad reflection of the self centred nature of society. Those people bemoaning this action should be ashamed of themselves.

This Government have betrayed, deceived and ruined your country to feather their own nests. You are living in a control state of constant surveillance, observation and suspicion / mistrust of each other.

That a collective of men and women should stand up to them with the threat of losing their jobs either way is to be applauded - not derided and bemoaned by a few armchair "it wouldn't have happened in my day" generals.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I still haven't heard a mass vote of public support yet.

Yes it IS - and that's the very reason the RM choose to disrupt the public, as it causes maximum inconvenience. They hope we'll get annoyed to the point that we'll scream at RM to give the workers what they what. Only thing is it's backfiring.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Pretty much what I said last night, typed better of course... :clap:

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Oh I soooooo wish that was true. I've had delivery problems to this address on and off ever since we've lived here (almost 25 years) - basically mail with the wrong address being delivered here and our mail going elsewhere (usually a particular address in a different street because the postie just can't be bothered to check it first. Over the years I've been through the Royal Mail customer services route any number of times and complained until I'm blue in the face but the problem persists. I've also been in contact with Post-Watch many times and they eventually elevated the complaint within RM but each time there's a gap of a few months between issues they basically try to treat it like a totally new new complaint and refer you back to RM even though it's exactly the same problem and often the same people involved. :mad: Domestic customers can't force RM to do anything and Post-Watch had no power to force RM to do anything either so the whole exercise of complaining was a waste of my time and money!

We recently had 2 Recorded Delivery items put through our door without being asked for a signature even though we were in at the time. I contacted Post-Watch hoping to link this event to my last complaint reference so as to avoid having to go through the whole rigmarole all over again... I got a recorded announcement to say Post-Watch no longer exists and referring me to yet another organisation with a nice snappy title (but equally soft rubber teeth when it comes to dealing with RM very probably) - Consumer Focus - I couldn't bring myself to go any further.... :banghead:

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

how so - do you run a mail order business, or are you just very popular ie get lots of correspondence .

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I can't see how it makes any difference how this affects me. I use the RM a lot and if they won't do the job then I don't mind paying for someone else to do it.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

i'm just trying to get an understanding of the nature of your problem ie why it affects you in such a big way .

me personally i can work around it. its not as if we don't have other forms of communication /delivery systems .

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I wonder what they would have said if it was their jobs at risk.

---------- Post added at 22:24 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ----------

Well in that case you should support the union and their action. The workers are looking out for themselves and hey, whilst there at it, they're looking out for all the workers as well. Now, that's some going, isn't it.

They tried compromising with the management, but the management shafted them. The management have insisted that they work longer hours for less pay and if they won't do it, they will be sacked. So, now the unions are watching their own backs so that the management don't shaft them again because they are thinking about themselves.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

If Royal Mail is loosing money then they need to be brought into the 21st century.

This includes modern equipment and working practices until the company is profitable. This is no different than any other company why should Royal Mail be treated any different.

JJ

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Nobody is saying the workers don't have a legitimate reason to be unhappy. What we object to is having our lives and services disrupted when the argument isn't even ours. I can't stand it when some union decides the only way to get what they want is to take it out on silly old Joe Public. I also hate it when the wheel out the "this is a last resort" and "we never wanted to strike" lines. Well boo-hoo boys, no-one's buying it.

Even worse is when they expect support from the very people who are crying out for employment.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

So what are they supposed to do? Bend over and take it up the bum?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

From the Times today
And some FAQ on the BBC website

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Which part of these modernisation efforts are they striking about?

From the Royal Mail website

• Not working all the hours for which people are paid. A significant number of delivery postmen in some units in London complete their walks up to two hours before their scheduled duty finish each day yet are unwilling to help out with other tasks for the remainder of the working day. The 2007 agreement set out that people should work the hours for which they are paid.


• During the summer when mail volumes are low there is less work to do. By asking each delivery postman simply to deliver to one or two extra streets, some of their colleagues’ summer holidays can be covered without overtime. Many London delivery units refuse to cover additional streets.

• Refusal to work to revised delivery routes generated by computer aided planning, which is used in postal organisations around the world and is aimed at making us more efficient.

• A refusal to accept the use of more part time workers in delivery to enable us to be more flexible and match the workload, even though we have guaranteed that no-one who works full-time will be forced to go part-time.

• In Mail Centres, there are demarcation lines which date back decades - so, for example, Distribution drivers refuse to work in the mail centre even when they have no driving to do but there is work in the mail centre which needs attention

Everyone needs to be more flexable going forward, to get the job done and support their company.

All they are doing at the moment is damaging the buisness from which they will find it harder and harder to recover from


JJ

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

What am I supposed to do? Say "ok they're potentially losing me money as well as reputation on ebay (which could lead to further loss of income) and from other ways I try to make a living but hey, I support them anyway"?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

You could take a chill pill? Presumably most fellow ebayers in your league are in the same situation, so I doubt your reputation will be very much at risk.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Maybe the RM workers could take a chill pill too instead of going on strike? My income isn't just based on ebay you know.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Why don't the strikers use work-to-rule?

Probably because the action doesn't **** off the populus enough. Let's face it, even industrial action in the private sector involves screwing the public one way or other by blockading fuel depots or rolling roadblocks.

We will always be inconvenienced because that's the most criticial bit of industrial action :(

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Ain't that the truth.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I imagine theirs is mostly based on RM, which is why they're peed off beyond the chill pill.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Which is the very reason a "chill pill" is useless for me.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I think Zrbyte said earlier they have done that, to no effect, so the strike is the next (regrettable, presumably) move.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Way to go Royal Mail. Just the way to get the communication lines open; call your work force lazy. That'll go down well at the negotiation table, won't it.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Way to go Flyboy, completely dodge the rather important and shocking issues jamie has posted.

Honestly, how did this lot survive Thatcher? The CWU really is carrying on as if it's still the 1970s. How can anyone think it unacceptable to work the hours they're contracted and paid for?! And demarcation lines for pity's sake. This lot really aren't living in the real world. It's contemptible.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

If I recall correctly the issue of certain post deliverymen/women (you'll notice that this is peculiar to some "units in London") finishing their runs early was flagged up / part of the deliberations in the 2007 dispute.

They are delivery postmen, not "sorters" or some other element of the RM, they do the job they were contracted to do. The fact that Royal Mail management, in defiance of the wishes of the majority of their workforce and indeed almost all of their UK customer base, decided that there should only be one mail delivery (carried out by delivery postmen) per day as opposed to the previous twice daily deliveries (carried out by delivery postmen) is an issue for Royal Mail management.

Delivery postmen deliver post (the clue is in the job title). If their employer prevents them from doing so then that is their employers fault, not theirs.

There you go on the anti union rant again. I don't know what you work at Chris but there are demarcation lines in every walk of business. For example does your company boss clean the toilets, or do the photocopying, or deal with the post?

Consider this. What if you elected to ignore the demarcation lines in your work which effectively protect your job, what if a colleague began doing your work along with their own and your boss picked up on this and thought, "Hey, I've just noticed that such and such seems to be quite capable of multitasking and doing his job and Chris's job, why are we employing Chris?

Given the current economic climate demarcation lines in the form of job descriptions are the very thin line between many people still being in a job and not having enough time to spend on the internet union bashing.

As such I wouldn't be so quick to knock them.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Great. So who can I strike against?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I'd need more info Russ.

Firstly, who do you work for?

Do you have a legitimate grievance against them?

Are you a member of legally constituted trade union whose representatives have been democratically elected to represent you?

Is your job under threat by an expectation of multi tasking or the introduction of a lower paid, lower skilled or part-time based workforce?

Has your employer sought to make major changes in the terms and conditions of your contract of employment which you or your union might perceive to be detrimental to you, your health, your work life balance or your standard of living?

That type of stuff would help.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I'm working for myself. It's mail order related, most of my incoming and outgoing mail is in envelope form. At the moment I'm getting by just using stamps but I'm looking at getting a RM business account and forking out for a 'franking' machine. To justify that cost I need to be sure of a business plan which I'm tentatively working out.

Although bad the economy isn't affecting my trade directly but the RM would really screw up my projected growth. It's hard enough selling the idea of small businesses to people when I have major league competition but all it would take is delivery delays to take longer (even asking people to be patient during the strikes doesn't work - most people want things NOW or they go elsewhere) and potential customers give up and take their business elsewhere.

I need a delivery service I can rely on. It should be the RM but I'm not fussy, I'll pay anyone to deliver my mail and have orders brought to me, this is why I'm more than happy for the RM to have competition if they won't do the job they're supposed to do.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

As it happens, I am currently a statistic, but that's par for the course when you specialise in short-term contract work. But I have worked in plenty of offices and for more than one FTSE-100 outfit - one, in particular, where both the CEO and COO had a real bugbear about voicemail and phones ringing out, and used to lead by example by answering random desk phones if he happened to be passing while they were ringing and being ignored. I got a callback message on a post-it from one of them once.

I have been called upon and have been happy to take on all sorts of tasks that were not part of my core job description over the years, becauseI have always seen myself as an employee of company X rather than simply a person who does job Y.

I appreciate the general point you're making about demarcation lines, but I think - I hope - you and I both know that there's a difference between taking reasonable steps to safeguard your job, and taking extreme measures to avoid having to lift a finger and do something productive.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Way to go CWU - see mail volumes plummet because the service your members provide isn't what it should be but carry on regardless, living in the past and biting the hand that feeds you. That'll go down well in the middle of a recession won't it... :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Given the competitive growth in the mail / parcel delivery service sector and the fact that you're not fussy about who performs this element of your business then perhaps you should do as you suggest and consider one of the alternatives to RM.

In essence, if your business plan projections don't hold much faith in the service levels offered by RM then perhaps exploring the possibility of a service level agreement with an alternate provider is the answer.

That said, if your business is operated through a service provider / middleman such as ebay you might want to consider an alternative to that as they are moving towards a "no postage fee" model in many categories.

Given the current economic climate vendors who are active in these categories and unable to absorb / offset these losses effectively - without passing the costs on to their customers - will undoubtedly falter or fail.

Without wishing to sound like a merchant of doom - and good / reliable postage services aside - the days of smaller mail order startup business thriving in an online environment such as ebay are numbered.

That's exactly how they'd like it.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

At the moment I don't have an alternative to RM. For the forseeable future (12 months) I'm going to be relying on customers sending me items via 1st or second class mail and me using the same service back. Nobody else does simple door-to-door delivery of mail at that level. You're right that I don't care who takes care of the mail. This is why my attitude is if the RM workers won't do the job I'll happily pay someone else in their place.

It's also why they'll never get one iota of sympathy from me. The worst thing is if my business goes under as a result of orders being lost or delayed, there's not a single thing I can do about it.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Since your location is cockney geezer land I take it that means London, London have been striking on and off for several months on a completely unrelated issue. Because of this I could understand why you would be sick of this and why it seems never ending for you. My office and most others haven't been on strike since that 4 or 5 day fiasco about 18 months ago. And even now the vote was treated very seriously in my office though I think ours was a bit below the average with only half in favour (though still the majority).
And you do realise after the modernisation RM are going to try again on the privatisation of the mail system. When that happens domestic deliveries become optional. With RM being the only company really interested in doing it anywhere but big cities you may find you wont have a delivery any more (at least not daily).

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ----------

And how does ranting on a forum or screaming at the postman in the street any more effective?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

This is typical union scaremongering and you shouldn't be taken in by it. Similar was said prior to the privatisation of BT more than 20 years ago, yet thanks to the universal service obligation they are still compelled to run lines to remote farms and crofts and to operate phone boxes in 'socially necessary' locations where they may not be profitable. The universal service is as healthy as it has ever been, with the outcome of the Digital Britain report now being that the universal service obligation for data services carried over the phone line being enhanced from the miserly few kilobits as it currently stands, up to at least 2 meg and perhaps more.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

We need to spread the word about how unpopular this strike action is. We need to let the RM know that as many people as possible do not support them.

As for 'screaming at the postman', that's something I totally disagree with. Maybe he's against the action, maybe he'll cross the picket line. Whatever his view, it's not his fault and he won't be able to do anything to change the situation.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Mainly because RM Aren't losing money. Their profits are lower then they would like because of the massive pension deficit when they took a holiday from paying into it (For 17 years if I heard correctly). However I don't see why the work force should suffer for that one, they made the debt, they should pay it back.

And I know this isn't a reply to you but someone earlier mentioned a nice juicy payment to anybody taking voluntary redundancy because we are government owned. That couldn't be more wrong, The highest offer we have had so far was £5,000. That was for a postie of 25 years experience, Thats not even 1/3 his yearly wage. Now while I suppose this is better than nothing its still not as though we have the easy out like some people think.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 ----------

Suggest a way around it then.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

How about this:

1. Don't go on strike.
2. Let the managers do what they are paid to do, namely take management decisions.
3. Do the job you're paid to do.
4. If you don't like it, (a) be thankful you have a job, millions currently don't; or (b) do what a great many other people do, and start applying for other jobs.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

We do that allready

That is a blatant lie that RM have used several times in the past to make us look lazy. Domestic mail volumes drop but mail weights and packet deliveries actually increase by about a third so the deliveries take about as long.


Again, We are already doing this in my office. It took nearly a year to implement in my office because RM bought the software from an American company so delivery points are estimated to be on the edge of the pavement for houses and just inside the foyer in flats, which is rarely the case.

I'm part time :wavey: and so is another 1/5 of my office. And the managers have already bullied 2 people into quitting because they wouldn't take part time hours, and another 1 to take a part time contract and supplement his wage with another job because he couldn't afford to do it.

Not entirely sure about this one because we are not a mail-centre but from what I have heard today in work when I asked is that this applies to overtime only and its not representative of a normal working shift (At least in our area). Royal mail have a nasty habit of bringing people in on overtime with the promise of one type of work and then shafting people with the other jobs that they haven't agreed to do and often don't know how to do.

---------- Post added at 12:19 ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 ----------

Tried it, doesn't work.

---------- Post added at 12:20 ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 ----------

I hope your right because I'm a customer too you know.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

That would be because management aren't as inept nor abusing their authority as you would like to have people believe then.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Wish more people felt the same as you about that. I actually voted against the strike in my office, though I wont be crossing any picket lines I didn't actually want it to come to this and I'm sick of customer abuse about it (Especially in the last month or so).

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Of course I'm right. And I say that as a resident of one of the very far-flung communities that RM might be expected to drop like a hot potato, were the universal service not to remain as an obligation post any privatisation.

All the once state-run utilities are subject to regulation on some level or other. It prevents them cherry-picking only the most profitable parts of the business and forces them to shoulder responsibilities in proportion to the commercial advantage they hold as a long-term incumbent supplier.

To suggest that a privatised Royal Mail would be allowed to abandon universal service is utterly without foundation.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Do the union reps still visit the homes of scabs (lovely term, that) and try and convince the families to dissuade the works from crossing picket lines then?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

1. I said a way around it, not to ignore it.
2. Go into your nearest delivery office and ask to speak to a manager, You'll probably find after a moment or two talking to them why that wouldn't work.
3. Trying to, but RM want me to do the job another man is paid to do aswel for less pay (not even the same pay).
4. (a) Most of those millions may possibly have still had a job of they had a union (b) Already on it. Like many have already covered on this thread it's not that easy.

---------- Post added at 12:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 ----------

Actually it's the opposite, they are so good at bullying staff en-mass that working to rule is unenforceable because a lot of us end up working for free at the end of our shifts under threat of disciplinary or sacking.

---------- Post added at 12:31 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

lol, not that I've ever heard of.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

That makes no sense.

Besides if you have to work for free and its not against any rule then surely that's an issue with your union who negotiated the last deal?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Can't realy see what the strike is about then if all of the items on Royal Mail's website are untrue.

All I can seeem to find is that the Management are trying to run the business into the ground.

This doesn't make sense, at the end of the day the work force will still be needed. If Royal Mail is sold off the first to go will be a lot of the managers.

Parcel sortation is possibly another area as there is a lot of spare capacity in the 'system' at the moment.

But only Royal Mail have the infrastructure to hit every house every day.

The use of anualised hours is a common occurance in buisnesses with seasonal peaks. It's pretty much required to help a buisness be profitable.

JJ

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I know 4(b) isn't easy, I've been in that position nearly 4 months now, and without 4(a) to rely on in the meantime. However, in reply to 3., I don't see why Royal Mail staff should be exempt from working the full shift they are being paid for.

I have found, in the long term, that your employment prospects - both in finding, and excelling at a job - are a lot better if you see the ability to generate and manage your workload as a positive attribute, rather than some unpardonable transgression of someone's demarcation line.

You know, I'm reminded of one of my dad's favourite stories of his days at sea as a marine engineer. He used to hate coming into port at Liverpool because certain mundane tasks, such as lifting deck plates to do maintenance, became the dockside boiler maker's job as soon as the vessel was moored up.

At sea, he could lift the plates, perform maintenance and replace them in minutes. In port, he had to wait (sometimes for hours) for some belligerent docker to come and do it for him. He couldn't do it himself, because it wasn't worth the risk of provoking a wildcat strike resulting in the dockers refusing to deal with the ship at all.

Thankfully those days are, for the most part, now little more than a shameful episode of our industrial history. Except in Royal Mail offices, it seems.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

In good times maybe you might have had some public support but come on do you really expect to get it when so many are losing their jobs and countless others are having to work reduced hours and take pay cuts. Why is it postal workers seem to think different rules should apply to them then apply to the rest of the working population. Many work longer hours for less pay in worse conditions and even if they had a union wouldn't strike because right now they know people without jobs and appreciate their own no matter how crappy it is.

Another reason why public support is not as forthcoming as it once was is because as i mentioned earlier you can sit down on january 1st and take a good guess when you will hear about strikes because it is the same damn time every year. That time is of course when you will royally screw the majority of the general public and cause them maximum disruption and inconvinience. Right now instead of trying to get everything you want how about just shutting up and getting on with it realising that times are bad for everyone and no one has the perfect job.

If you can't and things are so bad for you then take voluntary redundancy and come join all of us on benefit who supposedly are living life to the max taking the mick out of the state. Sorry i have no sympathy right now with postal workers because all my sympathy is going to the many people i know who despite being as flexible as they could possibly be some of them having worked more then a couple of months for no money trying to keep their firms going have NO JOB.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I note your sincere concern for customers with problems like mine... :rolleyes:

Moaning may not be more effective but, given that the other options of complaining officially (which you recommended) don't work, what else do you suggest long suffering customers do? Although I've never done it, I imagine ranting at postmen is what some people are reduced to because they're fed up with such shoddy service and nothing being done about it...

Please tell me just what is the union's current official excuse for delivery staff regularly putting letters addressed to another house in another street through my clearly numbered front door and failing to obtain a signature for RD mail ?... :confused:

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

That's very confusing.

There are alternatives to RM and you've said that you'll happily pay someone else in their place, what is the problem?

In the long term, from their perspective as a business, your custom is more important to them than your sympathy. Vote with your wallet, job done.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Who else offers envelope deliveries like the RM? I'd love to know.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Here are a few, and a few more.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Most of those would cost more than the RM. And 'selling' those new companies to potential customers is a battle in itself. Most people prefer to stick with what they know, in their own 'comfort zone'. Asking them to use alternative companies (most they wouldn't have heard of) may not sound a massive job but is likely to be enough to take their business elsewhere.

The normal procedure is for someone to put a document in an envelope then drop it in a post box. Many people would simply not deviate from this.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

So, we've established two things.

1. The majority of people accept the status quo and see no need for change.

2. Change and the option of change are not necessarily always good things.

Now, where were we on the RM workers decision to strike?;)

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

You missed out on the third - their actions will gain little public support especially those who are likely to suffer financial loss. These people are the one who are more likely to be in favour of breaking up the RM's monopoly and giving them competition.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Apparently not.

As you said yourself as far as the competition is concerned "Most of those would cost more than the RM".

On that basis I think we can agree that the competition needs to make itself more financially attractive to customers without RM doing it for them.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I assumed you would have realised my point about potential 'competition' - if their pricing wasn't the same or more attractive then they're hardly 'competition'.

What I do involves documents (once I get more established I'll go in to more detail on CF) being posted to me, and after a few days I return them. 99% of the mail involved comes via 1st class mail, your average envelope delivery.

What I (and the people I do business with) prefer to do is put it in an envelope, put a stamp on and put it in a post box.

On that basis there is currently nobody who offers a service (other than RM) that facilitates that. So right now there is no competition, no alternatives. The RM effectively have the potential to strangle my income. There's nothing I can do to change that. They do not have my support and never will.

If the government were to open up the RM's monopoly it would suit us all. No longer would their workers be able to hold us to ransom. We'd simply use a different company.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

As I said Russ - I think we can agree that the competition needs to make itself more financially attractive to customers.

The fact that they are not currently inclined to do so is not the fault of RM staff (striking or not).

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

You're missing the point on that though - it's not a case of them not being financially attractive, the point is there ISN'T any competition for standard door-to-door deliveries and envelope collection.

I've said several times that nobody would claim the workers don't have a genuine greivance. But potentially disrupting the lives of people who have no say in the matter is inexcusable and will build up resentment against them. Sure they're looking after their own interests but who's looking after mine?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Any number of the earlier linked to alternatives will provide the services - at a cost.

As to who is looking after your interests as a start up business that'll be Lord Mandelson in his capacity as Secretary of State for Business - who incidentally is the largest single shareholder in Royal Mail - which is owned by his employer HM Government.

This, rather succinctly, shows just how much the Government cares for businesses and individuals.

Oh what tangled a web they weave.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

OK we'll move on from that as you're seemingly missing my point.

Is Mandelson threatening to disrupt my business? No. Is the RM? Yes.

A sentiment it would seem, shared by the RM's union.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

However the competition might not need to do anything if the staff at RM finish the company off. :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Ok Russ, what exactly is the point that you think I am missing?

Is his capacity as the principal shareholder of the RM, a senior cabinet minister in the Government which owns the RM and the architect of the recently failed privatization and subsequent drive for "modernisation" I hardly think he's blameless.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

That there IS no competition for the RM at the moment for my needs. There may currently be delivery companies but what they offer is more expensive and does not rival what the RM can do for me, therefore they can't be considered legitimate 'competition'.

Who's going on strike, him or the RM?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I thought you under stood commercial activity? If you are unhappy with a supplier and they are not delivering a cost effective service, the you find one that does. Secondly, this strike is not going on indefinitely and will only be for a few days, yes there will be a back log, but most most other businesses and customers will be in the same boat. Any good business person will be able to explain, in clear and simple terms, what it means to their customers and how it will effect them in the short term. What level of service have you been getting from the Royal Mail in the past?

---------- Post added at 17:00 ---------- Previous post was at 16:57 ----------

If one is unhappy with their conditions of employment and their career choice, they can always go and find another job; isn't that what you are suggesting the Royal Mail workers do?

---------- Post added at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was at 17:00 ----------

But the service they are offering for the future is likely to worse than they are giving to day. So, where will that leave you?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I'm saying that if you are employed to drive a van for 8 hours a day, and you finish all the van driving work in 6 hours, it is perfectly reasonable for your employer to seek to find useful things for you to do for the remaining two hours, and perfectly reasonable for you to go looking for another job if you can't handle that. Although anyone who actually did go looking for another job would pretty soon discover the meaning of the phrase 'don't know you're born'.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Russ, with all due respect, the liberalisation of the mail service is now well into it's third year. Just because you don't find the alternatives to be financially attractive / acceptable does not mean that they do not constitute the competition as is.

You stated earlier that you'd be happy to give your custom to someone other than RM but now you appear to be suggesting that you're not prepared to suffer some short term financial pain in order to secure the long term sustainability of your business.

That's a decision for you to make and your customers will have to abide by the consequences of that decision.

Similarly the decision to strike was a decision arrived at by RM union members who are prepared to suffer financially in the short term to secure their long term prospects. Consequently their customers and business, much the same as yours, will suffer.

It's an economy of scales.

I think it's the RM, but don't quote me on that.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

You seriously have no idea of this situation at all. I'm a small fish in a big pond. I'm trying to offer something that my larger competition can't do. My service is a lot more personalised. I can't compete with the big boys on price (much) but I certainly can on service.

I've only recently started out. As I recently said I'm looking at staying small for the next 12 months at least if my business plan goes the way I want it to. Suffice to say the next few months will be crucial and any obstacles could seriously derail me and the only obstacle I can forsee is something going wrong with deliveries and postage. In my line of business potential customers will choose the path of least resistance. It takes a lot to persuade them to use a service like mine rather than what they're used to. So if something gets in the way I'm unlikely to get a second chance from them.

So I guess that just means I'm not a good business person eh? Still, fortunately ad hominem arguments are thankfully alive and well.

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:10 ----------

I'll give my custom to someone who can offer me the same or better than what the RM is supposed to offer. Right now there isn't anyone, which is why they're willing to strike and hold us to ransom.

I'm sure it is. It's still the RM I'm blaming and they won't ever get my support.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

I've only recently started out. As I recently said I'm looking at staying small for the next 12 months at least if my business plan goes the way I want it to. Suffice to say the next few months will be crucial and any obstacles could seriously derail me and the only obstacle I can forsee is something going wrong with deliveries and postage. In my line of business potential customers will choose the path of least resistance. It takes a lot to persuade them to use a service like mine rather than what they're used to. So if something gets in the way I'm unlikely to get a second chance from them.

So, what will you competitors do during the strike?

:erm: Yeah......OK.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Ad Hominem. ;)

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Still :erm: Yaeh......OK.

It would have been better if the term had been used in the correct context, don't you think?

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Here is something the mrs just saw on Facebook...

Pay the RM Workers by cheque and post it to them... Strike action solved.

:)

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Gets my vote

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

i had a chance of having a nice lie in yesterday for the first time in 3wks and guess what ,2 yes 2 postmen knocked on my door at the same time to deliver a new power cord for my sons laptop ,we don't normally see a postman before 11 oclock in my area but yesterday 8.15am ,says it all really
by the way it was ordered on tuesday to be delivered 1st class recorded

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=catEhS8k_BU Blanche tells it how it is :D

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

That's odd, our mail doesn't usually arrive until between mid day and 4pm but yesterday it came at 9.30 - just like old times it was ... ;)

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

i just ordered my own laptop charger 1 hour ago to be delivered by 1st class recorded .This could be a small experiment ,identical order from the same company both 1st class recorded 1 week apart any guesses when it will arrive
i reckon friday morning

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Great idea.:)

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Aside from the fatal flaw that we don't get paid when we strike anyway!!
Back to the drawing board eh?

---------- Post added at 00:03 ---------- Previous post was at 00:01 ----------

Damned if we do, damned if we don't says it all really. BTW unless it was actually posted on the Tuesday then Saturday is just within the reasonable window for 1st class mail sent on a Wednesday.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

No, they didn't. However I believe the reasoning behind that is that when the voters voted the Government in, they gave the Government some power to make decisions on their behalf..

I don't remember voting for any Union leadership, so why should they decide I cannot receive post?

:clap:

Of course the strikers are so busy thinking of other people (like say, the customers) that they don't have time to think of themselves... Oh, wait...

Then don't. Negotiate and compromise some things if necessary. Even the unions should realise that it's not actually in their members interest to force customers to other delivery services.

Oh, and those who say RM ends up doing deliveries for some of the competitors. It may do, but you can bet your bottom dollar that they don't pay RM as much as you or I would per item to get their stuff delivered, so that's still costing RM money.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

One of my m8's is working for royal mail, hhas been since 18 years old.
The reason they are also going on strike is because, royal mail are trying to make some workers not work from say 4am till 12.
They want them to start working at start from the afternoon to late evening too.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

If I understand it right, that's a shift system. What a highly offensive and out of touch regime to try and impose:D.

I have a fealing that it's the fear of change that's driving this, not any sound practical objections, just that RM staff want to carry on doing what they do in the way they do it now.


......Oh, probably involvement by some self-righteout over militant union branch secretary(s) probably doesn't help......like i've said in another post, you really do have to thing of Carry on at your Convenience(shop steward looking for any reason he can to take the workers out on strike).

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

Royal Mail have operated a twenty-four shift pattern for decades, so I think either you or your friend have something mixed up.

re: [Update] The Royal Mail strike thread
 

If it was fear of change thats stopping this we wouldn't have switched to single deliveries 4 years ago ;)
I think what Ginge may mean is that RM where talking of delivering later in the day. Basically there will be a sorting shift of 8am - 11am, though this shift wont be needed once the walksort machines come in. Then deliveries 12pm until Finishing time (Should be 4pm based on current delivery lengths but they are planning to extend some of those further).

Theres a lot of opposition to the above because that assumes no full time workforce (Something which RM have promised wont happen), it also means that during the summer we will be out in the hottest part of the day and during winter we will likely still be out when its going dark.