Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The complaint wasn't about gods was it though?

It was about the reputation of someone who is held in high regard to the complainant, just as the reputation of our armed forces is held in high regard by many of us.
Why is it ok to sully the name of one person but not another if people are offended and insulted by either?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

My interpretation of the difference is, the law. Incitement to riot is unlawful. Calling ones beliefs, or questioning their factual origins, isnt.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The complaint wasn't about that either.


As for the law;

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

It's not. I found the Muslim actions SMG refers to offensive. Whether the soldiers should have been in the Middle East or not is irrelevant. They went where their commanders told them to, and gave their lives performing the task assigned by their commanders. Essentially, they did exactly what our government (on our behalf) asked of them. As such, they deserve nothing but respect. If the Muslims had a grievance, they should have protested to those in charge.

Now I find it interesting that SMG bought up the subject of the soldiers. They are clearly people he respects, and he appears offended at the insulting action of the Muslims, yet he clearly fails to grasp that someone who has been bought up to respect a religious figure (whether that figure exists or not is irrelevant, they have been bought up to believe he does) should be equally offended, not to mention the apparent implication that they believe in female bondage.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Yea, spot on.

It is offensive, but in my view, not to the same extent.

My loyalty, is to my family & my country. Not to religion, or any other group. The men who defend our country are the finest people we have. They put their lives in danger so we can sleep at night. I hold no other group in higher esteem. When anyone, insults our forces, they insult me. I have been there & worn the T shirt out. Good men, fine men, have died for us, all of us, & we should acknowledge that, & anyone who openly insults our forces on the streets should be shipped off to a third world country, to see what happens to people, who dont have the right to free expression.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The law doesn't give a grading on offence.
Under section 5 the court will have to decide if the comments the hoteliers came out with are insulting.
We unfortunately do not have all the facts to hand, so it's hard to say if the court will go one way or another.
I'd be suprised if they're found guilty, or if they are that they're given much of a punishment.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Are you saying that they should have their right of freedom to speech removed? For expressing their freedom to speech in the first place?

And would the same be applied to non muslims, born and bread in this country who I have witnessed insulting British troops on quite a few Stop the War Marches I have been on.

By the way the muslims that demonstrated in Luton - they don't represent me or the majority of muslims I know. There are ways to demonstrate and to speak out against things. At a home coming parade is not one of them.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And as my Granddad used to say "Don't ever be afraid of speaking your mind"

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Yep and there is speaking your mind with respect for others and then there is speaking your mind to insult others.;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

As I stated in post 102, & the same applies to anyone. Its one thing to demonstrate, quite another to call soldiers, "Murderers". Dont you agree?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I personally don't agree with the war in Afganistan or the presence of British troops in Iraq.

My demonstrations (via organised marches) have never been against individual soldiers but against the governments that have sent them to fight.

I would never abuse a soldier be it at a home coming parade or in a demonstration.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The old free speech debate - - again.......

It's not difficult to understand.

You are entitled to an opinion, and you are entitled to express that opinion.

But it's not a black and white issue, you must use common sense and civility when expressing that opinion.

It is perfectly OK to offend, and insult (Winston Churchill being a master).

But it's not ok to incite, abuse, etc.

I am perfectly within my rights to say that I do not agree with many of the interpretations of Islam, and that I find some of the actions of islamic states abhorrent.

I could walk round with a placard that said "Put an end to islamic femail circumcision now"
Outside a mosque, and be perfectly within my rights of free speech.

But what I couldn't do is walk round with a placard saying "Mohammed is the devil and all muslims are evil"

Similarly, muslims or anyone else, are entitled to have "stop the war" banners, even at repatriation ceremonies - most of the families there would agree the sentiment I'm sure.

But they are not allowed to call the soldiers murderers etc.

It's common sense.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Saaf_laandon_mo,

You are free to demonstrate as long as you wish, should you want troops out, demonstrate against the Government, thats your right. As to your last paragraph, thank you.

Pierre.

You put it so much better than me. Why didn`t you post 10 laps ago & save me the trouble.:)


There is nothing more heartwarming than to parade in front of a public, who appreciates what your doing.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I'll stick with speaking my mind for now, that way people will know exactly where I stand. And you can just shut up! If that's what you prefer. ;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

There's no issues with you or anyone speaking their mind as long as it's within the confines of whatever law governs where you are whether it's out on the street or on an internet forum.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Politeness costs nothing even if you do disagree with someone.Name calling means you are losing the argument...;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Which would, obviously, never happen on CF - no ad hominem attacks here! :D

Agree to disagree.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Religion is evil. if you upset someone about their beliefs, there's a good chance they'll kill you for it.

We need God to give us a sign that we're all being ridiculous.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And in time-honoured tradition, just as peace descends on this type of thread, the armchair experts arrive to tell us, totally off-topic, that they disagree with religion and how wrong it is.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I'd say there was a better chance that they'd forgive you....

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

What do you base that claptrap on?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

It's not totally off topic at all. it's along the same lines as the original point of the discussion as in post #1.

---------- Post added at 13:24 ---------- Previous post was at 13:24 ----------

Many things really. past, present and future.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Please detail them.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

We all know you don't like religion, you make sure you post that fact in each religion-based thread. Your post brought nothing new to this.

But nothing you can actually put your finger on, obviously.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

It's probably best if you start a new thread. it'll be off topic for this one.

---------- Post added at 13:29 ---------- Previous post was at 13:27 ----------

Not that I don't like religion. I just don't care for it.
You can just read my opinion, you don't have to make an issue of it.

That's your opinion. I accept yours but you never accept mine.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

If you really didn't care for it you wouldn't pop up in religious-based threads with pointless comments.

That might be because I can't remember you ever validating your view with anything other than "well it's just my opinion".

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I can still have an opinion. I don't care for many things in life, don't mean I have no right to say something about them.
I could have said a lot of things in reply to the subject, but I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't with you :)

Do you want to go completely off topic and quote them all for me? :rolleyes:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Then why don't you formulate a point, by clarifying why you don't care for it.

Anyone can jump onto a thread and spout inane statements.

That is just like going onto the MEP thread and saying, "MEPs are useless" and when then asked to back up such a statement about what contribution thay make to our evolving european super state and their direct impact on our lives, saying " Well, I just don't care for them"

As said, nobody will give you flack for having an opinion, as long as it is actually an "opinion".

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

No-one is saying you have no right. But don't get so defensive when people pick you up for posting pointless and off-topic comments, time and time again.

The onus wouldn't be on me or anyone else to post them - you made the unfounded comment so it would be up to you to prove it.

But yes, fortunately for you there's an excellent get-out clause here - to do so would be even more off-topic.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Why is it some people seem to feel to be atheist means you have to hate religion because you don't and you do not have to spout drivel hiding behind "it's mt opinion". I am atheist i am one for my own personal reasons that i don't expect everyone else to agree on and i don't hate reliigion or those who follow it. i respect them in how they choose to live their life as i hope they respect me in my choice of living and that we can agree to disagree on that one issue. I also fully support the rights of anyone to follow whatever belief system they wish too and gain comfort from and would fight tooth and nail to stop any oprpression of that in anyway by anyone or anything and personally i think thats how it should be.

In this case i think these owners are using christianity to cover what are probably rather ignorant personal views more then anything and as such this is not really a christianity vs islam matter. Whatever else we think of this particular matter lets not follow their example by being offensive or insulting to others in this thread.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Religion is evil: I think religion is evil to mankind in the way that it brings on war, resentment and hate to each other.

if you upset someone about their beliefs, there's a good chance they'll kill you for it: some people are that obsessed with their beliefs in something that might not be real, that if you suggest that the thing might not be real, they could quite possibly want to kill you for even suggesting it might not be real.

or if it's not the reality of the thing you are talking about, but another opinion you have of the thing, they could quite possibly want to kill you for even mentioning it.

It's like we ignore peoples views on that aliens and fairies exist, but we don't have such a reaction from those people in the way that the others do or might.

That is my opinion as requested.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

It isn't religion that is evil it is people and how they interpret it as all religions at their core have a bias towards good and the best in humanity as far as i have ever read.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Live and let live Russ. life will be so much more relaxed if you do :)

Nobody has to prove an opinion to make it a valid one.

Which you have said numerous times that I am being when I'm not. it's like a get-out clause in reverse.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Wonderful. Back on-topic now which, seeing as you've got your 'point' out of the way, is about a Christian couple facing prosecution over what they said offending a Muslim.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I agree to a point. but the evil stems from the religious aspect of it. whether the person or persons are evil in the first place doesn't really matter.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And as has been said. the Muslim needs to grow some balls. or better still, explain why they're so upset about someone's opinion so much.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Well that's what normally happens in court.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I'd go as far as saying it's probably not the couple who are saying they were defending their christian beliefs but the christian groups which are supporting them.
Look at the case of the BA woman who was supposedly defending her christian beliefs, and the claims that BA was denying her the right to wear a cross.
You had Religious commentator Clifford Longley claiming BA were preventing her having her cross on display because they mistakenly believed it would offend other faiths.
Turned out BA didn't have a problem with it as long as she stayed within company rules, which applied to all jewelery, and kept it covered. She didn't want to accept that and continued to defy the company policy and so paid the price.
Christian groups have cottoned on to the persecution idea, so if they say they're being wronged they should get their way, and if they don't, it re-enforces the image of them being persecuted.
Look at the KICC which christian news sites claimed was being denied a new building because they are christian and not muslim, when it's actually down to the fraudulent activities of their pastor.
Personally I find exploiting the current anti-muslim atmosphere reprehensible.
Israel used to play the victim a lot, the Palestinians do it too, so it's not a specific christian ploy, and it's normally organisations with a bit of political savy that do it publicly (not wanting to activate anyone's individual persecution complexes).

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 14:03 ----------

We covered this.
Even as a non-believer I can understand why a muslim is likely to be insulted by being told that mohammed was a warlord* and islamic dress for women is a form of bondage.

*does anyone honestly think they just said "I say, that mohammed was a warlord" and then the woman rang the police, or are we all pretty sure more was said on the matter and that's most likely what insulted her?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

There is just too much we don't know about all of this to come to any rational conclusion. Were the couple angry in their tone, wording or mannerisms while saying all of this, was more said then what we know, do they have a history of this sort of thing simply too many unknowns for us right now. Better to wait till this has been to court then debate it.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Not being funny, but if we were to do that, then we shouldn't discuss anything till the jury has returned their verdict on everything that goes on in the world.

There's a murder trial going on that happened just around the corner from me, and I've known the person that did it for the last 27 years. :D

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Don't you mean you know the person who is accused of doing it?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

No.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

You're absolutely right - the muslim woman who was staying at the hotel whilst attending the local hospital for medical treatment should grow some balls.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:48 ----------

Ah, the old "innocent until proven guilty" and "fair trial" don't count in this case, eh?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Ah, what medical treatment? :)


No, because he did do it.
he will be the accused to you because you don't know that he did it, but I know that he did it. which is what your question was.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Seriously, I'd give up now if I were you. Retain some dignity while you're at it.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

So your testifying in the trial with the evidence proving he did it?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Russ, I know the person that did it, I know he did it.
he's due to be sentenced in October.

---------- Post added at 14:58 ---------- Previous post was at 14:58 ----------

No. :confused:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I personally think that something like "if you don't like it you can get the <insert expletive of your choice here> out of this country" was added...Or even "you <insert expletive> etc etc"

I bet if this is the case, the Daily mail won't include any further coverage of this story.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Slightly more harsh than what Shappi Khorsandi says happened to her when she asked why there wasn't a Gideon bible in her hotel room and was told that as she had a funny name they thought it might offend her. It wouldn't have, but being told she had a funny name might just :D

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Updated version of the story from the Daily Fail

and

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Saaf: What a polite phrase.:)


You know, it seems to me that too many people need to get a life. If all you can do is to argue about someones religion, & let it rule you, then your seriously in the (insert expletive of your choice).

People have killed for their religion, & are still killing for it. Human nature sets the pace, once an argument starts, it escalates. It needs rationality for people to say, this isn't worth the aggro. As an Atheist, if someone said to me that my belief is total rubbish, I say OK, believe what you want. If it works for you, fine.

I don't escalate it to a punch up, or threaten legal action, I get on with my life. We all have different opinions, & mine is, live & let live, & keep your beliefs to yourself.

Amen!

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Strangely enough, one of the defendants, Ben Vogelenzang, is one of those immigrant chappies, not being born in this country. ;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And obviously you'll agree that such attitudes are not just tied to religion?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

So!Who cares.I personally would rather wait and see what is said in court because what is said in the papers will probably be inadmissible in court and any jury or judge will have to disregard it anyway because it's the evidence presented in court that will matter.

Also the quickest way to look like an idiot is to speculate without facts and then when the facts emerge and they aren't what you expected, you've already nailed your opinion to the mast

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

It wouldn't be speculation if we had all the facts would it ? ;)

This is an open forum with a current affairs section what are we meant to do wait until all cases are finished before posting about them? wouldn't be much of a current affairs section then would it?

I do agree about making oneself look a fool by jumping to conclusions but not many of us are guilt free there

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Of course. All I know is that, once someone disagrees with someone else, a conflict arises. Human nature kicks in, & the disagreement escalates. Now if we could all just let it go, there wouldn't be so much aggro in the world.

Religious people are constantly spreading the words "peace & goodwill", yet all we see is upset & aggro. If these people really believed in their religion, then they should practice what they preach, & simply walked away, instead of taking the dispute further.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I'm in a public forum like that. you're allowed to post a subject that's in the news at the time or something, and the mods check it up and close the thread till after the court hearing has finished. then re-open it for you to make your views and opinions known.

it works really well. I've got a few threads going back till last year that are due up soon, and I can make my comments and views then. there's one that was started today, but won't be available for discussion until Summer next year.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

This isn't the same as a lot of things we comment on here though this is a verbal exchange that happened between a couple and an individual and so far we only have the couples version of it. Most of the things we usually comment on have some basic fact to them and we debate the merits of that, that isn't the case here. Also while i googled their hotel i found no mention of a dress code either so why the hell did they feel the need to make any comment about something a paying guest was wearing if it was normal clothing. This couple don't seem like completely innocent people to me but i wouldn't go as far as to say it should have become a criminal case.

Re: Christians arrested for defending there beliefs
 

It is my experience that this sort of comment rarely has no basis in any great knowledge of the subject and those delivering the comment rarely know why. Typically, it is because they either have read too much BNP propaganda, read too much Daily Mail, or both, Then the involvement of the "Christian Institute," really does give us a clue as to what the answer would be.

---------- Post added at 00:22 ---------- Previous post was at 00:03 ----------

"Vogelenzang" is a traditional Afrikaans name.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I hope noone minds me entering this discussion, being a n00b and all :)
Just had a quick read through these last 11 pages or so, very interesting contributions from all sides. Clearly certain expressed views are rather twisted, but this I find to be of no consequence, as I never get bored with the anti-religion drivel that thrives on so many forums these days.;)

Its clear, regardless of what the Vogelenzangs actually said about Islam - that this is hardly a matter worthy of criminal proceedings. If someone walked up to me and said Jesus lived in the playboy villa just down the road from his carpenters workshop, I seriously doubt I'd be involving the police. Sticks'n stones and all that. I would just take pity on the fool, and walk away.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I think this reflects a modern interpretation of the Christian faith and is an admirable outlook. However, I would argue that current islamic doctrine is not quite so lenient about people having a pop at their god. I would be shocked if the people saying these things did not appreciate what offence this might cause. I can think of two reasons why they may have said this and thought it was OK - they didn't know and have been living under a rock or they were being deliberately inflammatory and therefore guilty of the offence as charged.

Using Dad speak - 'what did you think was going to happen?'. Being culturally sensitive isn't really that hard.

Oh, on the free speech thing - you don't have the right of free speech on this forum, it's moderated and rightly so, so why the problem out in the real world?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

A very good attitude to take. Are you sure you're really a 'noob'? ;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Interestingly put and I do agree, though I do tend to feel that foreigners entering this country should make every effort to abide by our rules and customs, and I would extend this to include the way in which we conduct our faiths. Under our system, the same system that our forefathers fought and gave their lives to preserve - we do allow others to express their opinion(s) without getting our knickers in the knot, provided its done within reason. At least, we are supposed to - though this hasn't always been exactly followed to the letter. One only has to look at the situation in N. Ireland to see where I'm going with this !
If we don't like whats being said, we can make counter arguments or we can simply walk away.
However, as has been said, lacking the specifics of the case in question - we don't really know if the comments were innocently made in passing - or whether they were made to cause deliberate offense.

---------- Post added at 09:38 ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 ----------

Thanks Russ, I'm a cableforum noob - not quite so much a noob when it comes to these types of discussions tho.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Right. You just seem strangely familiar and remind me of a former member that's all.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I agree, I don't think this matter is worthy of criminal proceedings (it's worth of civil proceedings at most, and that's pushing it).

However, I will say one thing. We do not know the whole story. We only have the word of the couple who are accused. I doubt they would say if they had done anything worse than call Mohammed a warlord and Islamic dress a form of bondage, even if they had done something worse than that..

Both the Police and CPS (who, from what I have been told by various people, are not always easy to convince) clearly think there is evidence of a case to answer, and they have probably seen all the evidence, not just what we have seen.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Indeed the CPS and police investigating the matter know far more of the specifics than we do, but I personally wouldn't put trust them to apply reason and common sense any further than I could throw 'em.
They do make some really daft decisions sometimes, most if not all of us can think of specific cases which highlight the level of hypocracy that exist within the confines of our criminal justice system.
The cynic in me says the CPS would pursue a case such as this even if only just to make an example of an innocent couple for the purposes of demonstrating to < insert name of desired non-christian religious group whom the CPS wishes to show equality> that both the police and CPS enforce UK law without bias nor prejudice. The optimist in me says "Aye that could be true, but that might not be the case here.".

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

First of all there is no evidence that the person involved was not born in this country. Being a Muslim does not mean that they were foreign.

Secondly, what are those traditions and values, or "rules and customs"? Are they the ones that promote and welcome diversity and tolerance of others? Or the ones that that say, "if you want to live in this country, abide by our rules, or else?" There is no evidence reported that the Vogelenzangs were anything other than malignant, or that they were anything but benign, but whatever they were, was clearly enough for the police to investigate and the CPS to recommend a prosecution.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Indeed, the nationality of the lodger hasn't been revealed afaik, but the religion is non-indigenous to the UK. The point I was making was in reference to Stuart's comment about certain other cultures/religions not taking lightly to anyone taking a "pop at their God". We are supposed to tolerate this, it is part of what makes our system free, and its something we should all take pride in.

It certainly isn't the one where you abide by our rules or we cut your head off. I'd describe it more in line with the spirit of free speech that exists within this country, where it doesn't in others. Within the spirit of free speech which exists here, you can state you believe that all religions are only as real as Santa Claus and/or the Tooth Fairy, but you cannot shout "Fire!" in a crowded cinema. The problem exists where we as individuals have to decide where to draw the line, some people can't do this for reasons which escape me to this day.
If the offended lodger in question was merely minding her own business and then found herself verbally assaulted, then clearly there is little doubt as to where the blame lies. On the other hand, from the initial account of the incident - it seemed to me that they were all having a discussion, and some things were said that the other party disagreed with. This is still early days yet, and the newspaper accounts mean relatively little, in time we'll get the full scoop.

A friend of mine was due to be prosecuted for being 3 mph over the speed limit whereas the "guidelines" state 10% + 2mph. It was 33mph in a 30 iirc, whereas the guidelines state 36 mph to face points and a fine. Even though such proceedings defy everyday common sense, the police clearly didn't take issue with such action being taken.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Neither is Christianity.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Aye, I'm under no illusions of Christianity being founded in Hartlepool (lol) but this island has been a Christian country for eons. For all purposes concerned, in my view - it might as well have been founded here.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

So given the rise of Islam in the UK, you have no objections to a Muslim taking the same view?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I wish they'd arrest all Christians who go round banging on peoples doors. :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I wish they'd arrest people who post off-topic digs in threads.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Well, it could easily be argued that the Romans destroyed our truly indegenous ancient cultures throughout much of the British mainland, they destroyed the druid common link that all the lowland tribes shared, and then replaced it with their own. Then in time along came Christianity. So how is that different from Islam being introduced now?

Well, Christianity is what has made this country into what it is today, if it weren't for the actions of the church throughout the entirely of the dark ages, we could well have lost all of our culture - perhaps leaving us open to domination from nearby cultures in due course. We owe our way of life, our customs, even our spoken language to the actions, virtues and sacrifices made by the Christian church in a by-gone era. They were the light that carried us through the darkness. They got us here, where we are today, and that is an achievement that can never be replaced as history has already been written.
However, where we go from here is entirely up to us.
Would I support our country becoming an Islamic nation? Only if it became certain that such a re-direction was a proven necessity, and to be in the best interest of the nation, our children and for our grandchildren.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I'm wondering how many of these plackard waving religious protestors were arrested in London?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

You really haven't got a clue about this have you? Were you not aware that Christians burned pagans, destroyed their places of worship and built churches over them?

There is no rules that says a country must have just one religion or faith. There is room for all, including atheism.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I said "it could easily be argued", didn't say it was fact.
I can't say everything at once Russ, I'm trying to keep these posts as short as I can :)
FWIW, I'm well versed with history, its one of my favorite subjects, and yes I know the Romans would systematically destroy indigenous shrines and replace them with their own.

I never said there could be no room for other faiths. But if you think I "haven't got a clue" on the basis of what I had said, and assuming you still think I'm someone else mascarading as Sparkle, perhaps I'll give this thread a miss for a while.

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:55 ----------

I assumed you meant Muslims coming in and making this a stricly Islamic country (possibly involving restrictions placed upon or elimination of other faiths)

---------- Post added at 14:15 ---------- Previous post was at 14:08 ----------

Not to be crude, but I think a closer examination of history will reveal that the Romans burned pagans, destroyed their places of worship - LONG before Christians came along. :tu:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

http://savenatives.blogspot.com/2008...yed-pagan.html

What people are accusing Islam of doing now, Christianity was known for 1500 years ago.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Indeed, but you don't even have to look outside of Christianity (or most religions for that matter) to find examples of senseless brutality against their fellow people. Look what Henry's protestant reformation did to the Catholic shrines up and down this nation. Many were persecuted, and died for no reason other than their faith. The common factor here is people, people who are willing to use religion (or whatever else is convenient) to further their own evil, tyrannical ends, and when it fails to serve them further they just find a substitute. Its a shame that all too often religion gets the blame for the worlds evils, when the real problem is us.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Yes, after a quick bit of googling I'm glad you've moved on from the point you were trying to make.

So, the point being made earlier is more often than not these Muslims did not 'enter' this country as they were born here. The vast majority abide by the law of their land. So that whole line of discussion is a bit pointless - they have the same right of expression as Christians, Atheists and anyone else.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Interesting point. I wonder if perhaps there is a need for some legal clarification, just so we know where we all stand with one another. For instance, we've all heard recently how the Law will treat cases of assisted suicide. Perhaps similar guidelines are needed for religion related hot-topics and private discussions?
This could transform internet debates, imagine being able to sue someone because they compared your prophet to the Easter Bunny? By transform, of course I mean such discussions would be so restricted that they'd be effectively banned overnight...
T'is a shame people can't just get along, because when the law gets involved things can start to get messy.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The major problem seems to be that, it's only if certain groups are 'insulted', that action is taken. How do those groups get chosen? Is it payments to Labour Party Funds?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Yes, of course, Labour Party Headquarters put out an order to tell the police and the CPS, to only prosecute groups who don't make large contributions to the party and if any of their contributors tell them to jump, they are to ask how high.

If they did do this, could you post a link to it, as I must have missed that one. :rolleyes:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

So which groups that don't donate to the Labour Party are allowed to complain and be taken notice of?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Well, I would have thought that all of them were. :confused:

Or are you aware of some special rule that says that they are not?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Did you actually read the last words of the post? It's one thing to be allowed to complain, but it is the reaction to that complaint and whether anything happens as a result of the complaint that truly counts.

So people showing placards complaining about the behaviour of Iraqi Kurds(in Dover area?) were portrayed as being racist and ignored, but when local Muslims in Peterborough attacked Iraqi Kurds and went on a mini-riot because of the behaviour of the Iraqi Kurds, the local Labour MP Helen Clark said that something must be done to address their complaints.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

In your view.

Is this "group" also paying the Labour Party, or could it be you are just spouting round things?

---------- Post added at 15:44 ---------- Previous post was at 15:40 ----------

You do realise that Iraqi Kurds are mostly Muslims, don't you? Or are you complaining that an MP was backing up local Muslims against immigrant Muslims?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I did read the whole post, thank you very much and answered it appropriately. I am sorry that you did not understand it, though, I kinda thought it was quite simply worded, but there you go, eh. There is no directive, that I am aware of, which says that non-contributors are to be ignored; do you know of one?

If you are concerned about certain groups being unable to voice their opinions adequately, perhaps you should talk to Helen Clark.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Again, it's not whether people can voice their opinions, it's what happens when they do. Are they bullied/oppressed/suppressed by being arrested or by accusations of racism etc?

It's an example of a situation where two groups were 'protesting' about essentially the same thing, but only the complaints of one of the groups were thought to warrant a positive view and the possibility of their complaints being addressed.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Perhaps because their complaints weren't being addressed before. But, any hoo, any luck on this secret order from the Labour party?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Dear me, paranoia is at an all-time high...

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Right, any Church of Jedi members on here? For what its worth, I think Obiwan was something of a warlord, and Princess Leah wore a garment.....that I can only describe as being a bondage dress.
*drums fingers and waits for knock on door*

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Do you really believe that is all that was said?

Because if it was only those two comments, any court case would be a pointless exercise - however, let's wait and see, shall we?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Isn't this thread meant to be about an actual arrest for expressing opinions. So if I stood up and said that I wanted to have the same rights as immigrants, I wouldn't be arrested like in this example. It's not paranoia on my part, but 'head in the sand' syndrome on yours.

And that's not bullying/oppression?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I have no idea what was said, and neither do you. As you suggest, we will just have to wait and see.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

erm, no - this thread is about an arrest for

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Taken from the link above:
That comes as no surprise, as the PC brigade have been in charge of this country for far too long.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I remember hearing about this at the time. I also remember thinking, "well...serves him blooming well right, ignorant git."

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I agree that it was an ignorant thing to do. But would you really consider it a "hate" crime?

We have laws for everything these days, and in the future there will be even more. What really gets my goat is that once laws are passed, rarely are they enforced in a manner keeping in line with the spirit in which those same laws were passed in the first place. In other words, regardless of what caused a law to brought into effect, once any given law is in place - it can and will be enforced to the letter. The underlying problem is, this isn't why we pass laws - we pass them to deal with a specific problem.
Sheeple have bl**dy short memory spans.

My feeling is that when laws were passed to deal with alleged "hate" crimes, the spirit of such laws didn't have anything to do with cracking down on people voicing their, abeit rather ignorant, opinions.