Re: The existence of God
 

Don't they just..and the other more easy going atheists are getting sick of it as we get lumped in with them..

I'm wondering if we can use the term fundamentalist atheist to describe the former? Don't know what my kind of atheist could be termed though...:D

Re: The existence of God
 

Read my post about "ramming" Maggie!!!!

I like NOT to class anyone with any tag, what ever their belief, that is just rude and just not needed!:)

Re: The existence of God
 

I was a reasonable example and an attempt at a logical one but the logic didn't work. You failed to resolve a logical truth from it becasue you had set it up with dirty data.

You could have gone down the road of:

There is life on Earth
Bacteria has been discovered on Mars (Hence Life)
Therefore the is life on other planets.

I only take issue with the "logical likelyhood" of ray gun weilding aliens. The example by TheDon given previously was a myriad of stepping stones in logic which was reasonable but not logical per se. The initial premise led from one maybe statement to another much like chinese whispers.

I agree that it is likely that sentient existence exists on one or more planets in the universe.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...New-Earth.html

Re: The existence of God
 

you forgot to mention those of us who class ourselves as agnostic in one form or another!

Re: The existence of God
 

Love the definition of an apathetic Agnostic -
"the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic"

Re: The existence of God
 

spot on - perhaps some people are looking for something to sway them one way or the other?

Re: The existence of God
 

Sitting on the fence again...;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Personally fence sitting seems best in this regard.

It is so far the only logical answer, until a new entity is entered into the debate which is able to resolve the situation.

Since no logical Truth can be achieved from Religion nor Atheism the only logical conclusion is Agnostisism. I suspect that this comes under intuitive logic :p:

Re: The existence of God
 

Do or do not - there is no try......

Re: The existence of God
 

There is no spoon.

Re: The existence of God
 

I was not attempting to attain a final truth, note the words "likely". Being a staunch empiricist I would demand observational verification at which point the logical argument becomes rather moot.

Ah the old hard atheist trick.

Well this is mainly an issue of semantics, but theism and atheism tend be statements of belief while gnosticism and agnosticism are statements of knowledge. So they are not mutually exclusive.

Re: The existence of God
 

in contrast to a situation whereby there is a lot of interesting 'evidence' pointing in both directions, this topic has NO conclusive evidence in either direction.

how can one possibly make an informed decision on the truth of the matter when the matter is based on a faith to either follow or not to? faith, as already mentioned in this thread, does not follow the laws of logic - which requires an element of proven knowledge in order to come to a conclusion.

I do believe there is something far greater than ourselves that exists as a force or being in the universe. but with regards to what it's influence on us is in a physical sense, the form it takes or the powers it possesses, I really don't know. I think it would be naive to think that this planet is the only one to harbour the force of life. as we already know, microbes have been found on Mars. but we simply do not know if we are the most advanced form of life in our universe. likewise, we don't know if Earth holds essentially the most primative life.

so tell me, do you believe Maggy, or do you not? and more to the point, what are you basing that decision on? I would be very surprised if you can answer that without refering to terms such as 'belief', 'faith', 'feel' or 'think' as none of these are based on logic when the context is an internal emotion, which is essentially the driving force behind whether you follow God or not whole-heartedly. unless of course, you are agnostic... in which case, logic holds a higher presidence in you decision making.

Re: The existence of God
 

Ah, logic - the reason why two or more people will run into a burning building to save a child.

Oh, sorry - no it isn't, is it?

Re: The existence of God
 

You can only make an informed decision on, is God real or not, by looking into it for your self, and not by a few(?) posts on a forum topic!

Re: The existence of God
 

Given any number of premises it is perfectly logical. Your premises seems to be that the 2 lives are higher than that of the child, who decided that each life is equally valued?

Logic does not give you an ultimate goal it only gives you a means. This is why spock is not "logical"

Re: The existence of God
 

humans are driven by basic instinct, like many animals. one of these instincts that we possess is to preserve and continue own gene line. this is a very strong instinct. second is to ensure the young grow strong in the clan in order that it may continue to flourish and aid and protect the elders.

yes. logic is the reason.

---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:40 ----------

an informed decision is no necessarily one based on the truth though. which ever side you look into, the conclusions found will be based on the authors opinion, not on hard, physical evidence. this is why it is called 'faith'.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'd like to know how some find God when the odds are against them. When things go really tits up they believe or find something out of nowhere. If logic applied there then they'd go the other way even more.

Ok the odds seems to be stacked against myself, it's these times where I find the terms 'it's God will or it's a test' totally condescending.

Too impossible to figure out, maybe that's the trouble I don't know.

Re: The existence of God
 

logic and faith are at opposite ends of the scale. they will never likely meet. this is why I'm finding this fascinating.

Re: The existence of God
 

Which authors opinion Bender?

---------- Post added at 21:13 ---------- Previous post was at 21:09 ----------



Yes, thats does appear to happen!
Paul Gascoigne being the latest celeb to of found God!
Was God ever lost?;)

I think its just when things happen in folks lives, they start to think a bit more deeply about "whats it all about, why are we here, is this all there is" and such like stuff.

Re: The existence of God
 

To expand my point, this is why Voltaire said "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

A lot of religious fundamentalists are being perfectly logically given their premises (i.e. what they believe).

Re: The existence of God
 

As an empiricist I applaud you. In fact we are arguing the same point from different angles in regard to life (not the ray gun wielding ones though), intuistic logic would allow your statement to be true if the example given were better. Logic is simply a tool not the only tool we have, but a good one to derive truth from certain statements.


Sorry you'll need to clarify that statement, How or why would an atheist use that argument to support atheism??? It only supports agnosticism...

Again, how is agnosticism a statement of knowledge? From where I am is a lack of knowledge not the other way around.


I think you misunderstand, his point did not involve logic in the statement. He has no premise, it was an observation to highlight the lack of logic in such a situation.

I don't believe the intention was to engage in a logical debate.

For the record this is fabulous, from the start it was assumed that it would degenerate into a mob fest, however this is probably the most "grown up" discussion I have had the privilige to be involved in. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Gnosticism = I know
Agnosticism = I don't know

Theism = I believe
Atheism = I don't believe

Using the Plato definitions of knowledge and belief you can "not know" something but "believe it" or "not know" something and "disbelief it".

Of course that then raises the question of when you can say you know, but that's another discussion.

Re: The existence of God
 

the author who speaks to you in voice or print regarding the existance of God. it was not meant as a specific, but a covering generalisation. basically, anyone who puts down their word or voices their opinion should be considered the author of that which is said or scribed! :)

---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:23 ----------

hmm, not so - agnostic theism is a recognised form of agnosticism. google it.

check here for a starter

Re: The existence of God
 

I know, I never said otherwise. I know someone who describes himself as such

Re: The existence of God
 

So what was this in aid of then?....

EDIT - my bad - I read your original post wrong regarding Platos definitions! sorry.

Re: The existence of God
 

You appear (imho) to be confusing deductive and inductive reasoning. ;)

Surely it is more logical for two productive adults, who contribute more to society than a child and can produce more children, to survive, rather than a single child (btw, people tend not to live in "clans" anymore) - you often hear in the news of total strangers going into buildings to save people they don't know. Example1 Example2

Re: The existence of God
 

What a lot of verbose tripe, it was every three months that someone would ask a seemingly innocent question and set all this off again.

In my opinion this Christian bating should be banned as it causes a lot of upset to people such as my self who do believe, but as I well know there is no way on earth that you can shake or disprove my belief.

Now go along and get a life. Peace be with you :angel:

Re: The existence of God
 

But its only baiting if you rise to it surely?

A defence of ones own personal beliefs should always be allowed to happen, as should views fron the non believers side, I have not personally taken offence at any of the type in the posts at all.

Havent seen anyone been thrown to the lions ........YET!! ;):)

Re: The existence of God
 

you've made it quite obvious that you have not read the entire thread by posting that. if you had, you would have read my comments in post 68 with regards to the fact I am in no way trying to upset anyones belief, nor poo-poo God, nor convert anyone to think differently.

The very first post should have explained the reason I started the thread, but perhaps you saw the title, then posted an immediate defensive comment. No one should feel the need to defend themselves here as I am posing absolutely no threat at all. as I say, if you read the thread front to back, you will discover my motives.

everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want. it makes no odds to me what they believe. I was trying to better my understanding of why people choose to believe what they do and to try and find some reasoning behind it. Personally, I am a logical thinker. logic and faith are at opposite ends of the scale, which makes this all very intruiging to me. I would class myself as an 'agnostic theist', so I am in no position to rubbish peoples beliefs. it also, in a way, contradicts my own thinking that I think logically, yet would like to believe in something that cannot be explained.

please try not to make a war out of peace here.

that's not very christian, is it?

Re: The existence of God
 

It's early days yet...;)

Re: The existence of God
 

I think I'd have to draw the line at throwing people to the lions.

MMMmmm - ok I'd have to draw the line at throwing /some/ people to the lions.

Re: The existence of God
 

1. It isn't only Christians who believe in God.

2. Why do you get upset? Don't you see it as an opportunity to share your faith with others?

---------- Post added at 15:52 ---------- Previous post was at 15:42 ----------

This is an interesting point. For example, a Christian might argue that Jesus was a real person, and had "supernatural" powers (such as raising the dead). He might point to the Bible as his source of evidence. Not an ideal source, but you have to bear in mind the events happened more than two centuries ago.

In this example, the Christian is arguing that the theory for the existence of God is based on evidence - not faith.

I find it much harder to argue against this type of reasoning (based on some evidence) than a belief based on blind faith (e.g. fairies at the bottom of my garden).

Re: The existence of God
 

or two millenia! ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

i notice as these god threads progress the words get bigger [and the sentences more complex ]
but the evidence is still not forthcoming ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Ah right you mean the evidence that we keep telling you does not exist?

Re: The existence of God
 

i see GOD EXISTS because you have no evidence of said existence, clear as mud :tu:

Re: The existence of God
 

:banghead:

In the words of Pontius Pilot, "I wash my hands of this man".

Re: The existence of God
 

in a muddy stream probably .

Re: The existence of God
 

If you don't understand it now, after it's been explained possibly hundreds of time, you'll never get it. Of course if you don't want to understand it (as I suspect) then this will go on forever.

Re: The existence of God
 

That will work. telling somebody that they don't understand because they don't want to understand :)

Re: The existence of God
 

erm, no - Russ have previously many times explained his views; I think (imho) that he is stating perhaps those views are not being read, and if they are not, they will not be understood.

Re: The existence of God
 

QFT

:clap:

Re: The existence of God
 

I can't remember what his views were now. I'm mostly interested in my own :)

Re: The existence of God
 

you'd think though, that if people were sick of these threads, they just wouldn't bother posting to them. so why do they?

Re: The existence of God
 

No - really?

---------- Post added at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was at 18:40 ----------

God moves in mysterious ways (much like me after a few tinctures) :D

Re: The existence of God
 

the old - dammant quod non intelligunt- chestnut ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

To tell you that you're wrong and they're right :)

Re: The existence of God
 

And, imho, that sums up your attitude in one small sentence, Gary. ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

The belief in a deity and its associated religion has lead to more death, misery and suffering than any other virtually anything else on the planet.

Re: The existence of God
 

Well just goes to show what ignorance is then :)

I take it you agree with my suggestion to Bender?

Re: The existence of God
 

for all things said for and against religion, this comment I do think holds a lot of truth.

Re: The existence of God
 

Possiblly it maybe but can I point out that history is littered with people of faith who stood up against inhumanity,torture,racism,genocide,war,hatred and there are those who have used their faith to achieve a balancing out against man's cruelty to others to feed,clothe,succour the victims of that cruelty...

Re: The existence of God
 

Good point.

You wouldn't see that from a belief in fairies would you :)

Re: The existence of God
 

absolutely, but the commet still holds a lot of truth.

Re: The existence of God
 

You show it very well..... ;)

You can take whatever you want, wherever you want, Gary - but you should not presume to know what others agree with.

Re: The existence of God
 

Read the bible, judge for yourselves, keep an open mind, never be swayed like I once was by other peoples view points.

Make an informed decision for yourself........but only if that is what you wish to do.

Until that day, leave each to their own to get on with believing in God.

Re: The existence of God
 

Not to be rude Lucy, but how would reading a bible help you judge?
The bible and God are both the same thing really. only one is far fetched more than the other to some.

It's like your big sister that likes fairies telling you to read a book about fairies. does she expect you to now become a believer just because you liked the ending?

Re: The existence of God
 

A very true statment, as many so called believers in God do in fact go to war against their fellow man, and persecute one another in the name of their own religion, even amongst the Christians.
It happened centuries ago, and does to this very day, the evidence is around for us all to see.

This does in fact go against what the bible preaches.

---------- Post added at 20:34 ---------- Previous post was at 20:22 ----------



Thats not rude at all Gary.

The bible is Gods word, in written form!
If you believe that of course!!!
It was once far fetched to me, I was bought up by non believers, that is what I was taught by them, there was no God.

Adult hood, and a whats it all about attitude made me ask questions to myself, and I started reading The Bible.
It confused the heck out of me, especialy the old stuff!! Down right scary infact!

Searched deeper, went to the history books, checked stuff out for myself, and my mind started wondering more, did God create or are we from Monkeys!!!!

The evidence in The Bible, and the history books was enough for me, and then of course it does go in to deeper things as well..........so short story is, from one fetched up by atheists, I am one of those through my own investigation, became to believe in creation by a inteligent designer!!!

I love monkeys though!!;):)

Re: The existence of God
 

That's very true Elsie, and very sad as well. Mind you, the invention of the motor car and the fact that almost every adult in the western world now owns one causes more death misery and suffering in Western countries than anything else - including war, for the time being at least.

Nevertheless, I trust you would agree that the remedy for this is for people to use their cars responsibly, within the law, as they were intended to be used, rather than to declare cars to be somehow wrong and to be avoided?

Re: The existence of God
 

No :)

I went to Sunday school for a couple of years. so I was the opposite really. my parents never had a view, and still don't I suppose. I made up my own mind from an early age really.

When you say evidence. what was written/told to you in the Bible and books. made you a believer?
I suppose it has to be that for everyone. be they a believer or non believer. apart from the spoken word such as in Sunday school.

I love pussy
cats. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

How many times have people gone to war over religion? Very rarely, greedy, power hungry rulers have used religion for their own ends to rabble rouse for sure but for things like gold, land and protection of their own interests rather than a belief in God, when you scratch the surface even things like the crusades and the Spanish inquisition prove Elsie's statement to be untrue in the main, that's not to say awful things haven't happened in the name of religion, just to say they aren't at all common as people think.

Re: The existence of God
 

what evidence do you want exactly ?

Re: The existence of God
 

Is photos or CCTV footage asking for too much?
Or a plain old fashioned miracle.

Re: The existence of God
 

I thought malaria was the biggest killer of people (at the moment, anyway). Mind you, there are some pretty nasty nematode worms eager to take the trophy. Aided by malnutrition and hunger, of course.

Re: The existence of God
 

Richard is back on the forum........;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Who's Richard?

Re: The existence of God
 

You naughty man!
Breaking up the I love pussy cats ....on to 2 seperate lines!!:)

Re: The existence of God
 

The Bible suggests that a lot of people couldn't bring themselves to believe even though they did see miracles. I can't see why it would be any different today.

Re: The existence of God
 

something based on facts/evidence -and please do show the working out
dna would be nice
personal appearance
even a single atom of GOD
the parting of the river Humber
what i dont want is more stories /its faith so its true /read this book it explains every thing

i like facts backed up by evidence/data , but i know there not on offer ,believing something is true does not make it true ,well not in my corner of the world ,and please dont do a story about motor cars ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Searching the archives as I type for suitable footage for you Gary!;)

Re: The existence of God
 

You are (imho) :D

Re: The existence of God
 

why did no one else think of that

Re: The existence of God
 

Define a miracle you would believe in?

To clarify the smallest kind of miracle, do you not attribute "life" the term miraculous and if not what?

Re: The existence of God
 

Well I like them both ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Coz you not as intelligent as this blonde woman, thats why!!!;):)

Re: The existence of God
 

Apart from the Bible possibly not being true. we're more advanced today than then. and would be able to make a quick decision as to whether the miracle being performed is sufficient enough as proof?

You have to see it as when you say to me The Bible suggests.. to me it's like you saying to me My Dad says..
doesn't mean it's true to me just because it is to you.

Re: The existence of God
 

They don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter, their faith works for them, no one is trying to convert anyone here so if anything the onus is on 'you' to prove God doesn't exist imo

Re: The existence of God
 

You should have said you did requests. I've got a couple :)

---------- Post added at 22:28 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------

I honestly wouldn't define life as a miracle. is a seed growing into a tree a miracle?
I think a miracle would have to be some kind of really good magic that is just not possible to do. not cards though I hate card tricks.

Re: The existence of God
 

I wondered previously at Maggy and Russ comments concerning Atheists have it easy.

Now I see why but the reason as far as I can tell is because people of faith allow atheists to take the armchair approach. The Atheists here have a solid I don't believe you approach to whatever a person of faith offers. What do Atheists offer apart from I don't believe?

Re: The existence of God
 

imo the thread title is

The existence of God---not the none existence of .... so i think you've got the proof thing the wrong way around ,and if something does not exist how can i produce evidence of its non existence such evidence would not exist.

Re: The existence of God
 

For all scientists posturing though it is still not possible to define the spark of life. We can mutate and replicate through playing with the raw ingredients, we cannot currently create the conditions from scratch ourselves. Why it this rejectable as really good magic.

I have never seen a seed play cards, though I have seen a seedy deck :D

Re: The existence of God
 

I seen a peanut stand, heard a rubber band
I seen a needle that winked its eye
But I be done seen 'bout ev'rything
When I see a elephant fly

Re: The existence of God
 

Get out clause central, papa smurf getting off ;)

A discussion concerning the existence of god would also include the non existence. The discussion title suggests that existence has not been established and therefore in order to discuss, persons from all angles would be required. The thread was not entitled "Persons o faith willing to be abused over their belief this way" either. Proof of anything was not required by the thread title.

---------- Post added at 22:47 ---------- Previous post was at 22:45 ----------

That was a disney film not a documentary ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

You could always pray to a rock and then pray to God. see which one answers :)

If the rock answers I want to use it as the miracle.

Re: The existence of God
 

I think you simplify too much, I don't believe that the concept of GOD is an answering service....

Re: The existence of God
 

but if God answers you get a rubber room

Re: The existence of God
 

Isn't it said that he answers all prayers?

Re: The existence of God
 

LOL! So you don't speak to a doctor you speak to a priest/vicar etc. though would he/she believe you?

Re: The existence of God
 

i think the saying is hears all ... not answers all , it would be a funny old world if 90% of its people where claiming to be having a rapport with God

Re: The existence of God
 

It might do, I'm not an expert but even if it did does it give any expectation of time or how the answer will come?

The answer could be in the form an action e.g.

Re: The existence of God
 

Isn't the hear my prayers just the song?

Found the get out clause in the contract.
It would be a bit crazy.

Re: The existence of God
 

Possibly but how many times has religion been made the scapegoat for bad behaviour when in reality it's been man's greed that instigates wars..indeed those so called crusades that were to reclaim the holy land(which we never owned in the first place) were nothing more than an excuse to exploit the situation to extract anything of value in any way possible including hostage taking for monetary gain...

Re: The existence of God
 

LOL at the joke.

Re: The existence of God
 

Too right. It's often misconstrued that the vast majority of human lives lost (in war) is due to wars in the name of religion.

The truth is warmongers of any religion usually have their own agenda which is conveniently fought under the religious flag.

Re: The existence of God
 

Maggy what is it with you and Bender? You seem to like each other very much :D

Re: The existence of God
 

What joke Gary.......that was real!!!!

I laughed too!:)

Re: The existence of God
 

but then there wouldnt be a fair choice would there

do you want to follow the god giving you and demonstrating his all powerfulness

or

follow the devil off into destruction

the choice as Christians see it from the bible is harder will you follow on a promise of a good life later a life now that has rules and obligations with no reward other than that you feel happy that you are doing good

or

follow the world and do as you feel you want to not worrying what others want etc


the original post seemed to me to be asking or stating that there would be no pain and suffering if god existed i posted my points on that back a few pages

as to proof i could go into great detail on prophecies we see as being fulfilled and even the state the world is now in today see ( mathew 24 )

but even these to some take faith to believe that the bible was written by god ( or by the direction of god to be more precise )

Re: The existence of God
 

So did I. In a nostalgic sort of way;)

First heard David Copperfield ( comic from 3 of a kind - not magician ) tell it over 30 years ago.

It's still a few years younger than most of my jokes though. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

The one about the 2 boats and an helicopter.
it didn't quote properly.

:nutter: :)

Re: The existence of God
 

And you seem to like sitting in his pocket...;)