Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Probably even more off-topic,but isn't there supposed to be only one God in Islam? The same God, in fact. The difference is that Christians believe Jesus was the Son of God, Muslims that He was merely a prophet?

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

It's off topic because the topic is an independent girls' school in Croydon and a gym club that uses its premises. However, let me worry about that, as I said I'm going to see if I can find a way to make a split so both discussions continue.

In the meantime, to answer your questions, there are clearly some big differences in the RE syllabus you followed and the one I followed. Age or location may be factors, or maybe you went to a church-aided school? It doesn't matter much anyway. RE is just RE, it's a lesson in school and unlikely to actually convert anyone to any particular religion in my experience. Even though one of our school's RE teachers was a URC minister ...

Regarding the number of Gods in the Christian faith, yes, there's only one. I suspect what's behind your question is a suspicion that I'm defending Muslims because I believe their religion is equally as correct as Christianity? That certainly isn't the case, anyway. Islam and Christianity make a number of claims about truth and the way to reach God that are incompatible with each other. They cannot both be right. I happen to believe that in these things, Christianity is right and Islam is wrong. However, just because I think Islam is wrong on some important issues, I don't deny Muslims the right to practice their religion and to ask to have their religious practices respected.

Crumbs, maybe we're not off topic after all!

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

this whole topic just cements my belief that 90%of the worlds problems are caused by religion

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all Abrahamic religions, in that they all claim the same roots in Abraham and the One God whom he worshipped.

However, they now all insist on slightly different ideas of who God is and how he may be reached. It's possible to see the Christian view of God as a development of the one in the Hebrew Bible (the 'Old Testament') that doesn't contradict the view held by Jews (although some Jews would disagree with that). On the other hand, while Muslims claim the Qu'ran is 'The Last Testament', it doesn't really wash because it directly contradicts the Christian New Testament that it supposedly follows. Not least by denying Jesus' deity as expressed in the NT.

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:54 ----------

And your post cements my belief that you're more interested in intolerant sloganizing than in actually exploring or discussing issues.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I'll drink to that.:beer::beer:

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Chris, I don`t deny anyones right to worship whatever they believe, I was just making a point about how this country has been brought up for thousands of years believing one thing and living by that and then to have another religion from another country take presedence (spelling) in our own country take over, just seems wrong. In their country we have to abide by their rules be it Islam or whatever.

---------- Post added at 19:58 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------

Speak up then, lets hear your input on this.;)

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I seem to recall (actually, I don't literally - it was a bit before even my time) there were times when a) Catholics and b) Protestants were persecuted in this country for their beliefs (hung, drawn and quartered in fact). It's not just Christians and 'others'.

Also, I'd question the 'thousands of years' :)

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I hear what you're saying. There are a number of reasons why I take a different view though.

1. I don't believe it amounts to 'taking precedence' if, on occasion, we decide to do something that accommodates someone whose religion is not Christian. Actually in the specific case in this thread, it's a private school so it's an issue between the school and its customers, who pay the bills. In many ways a simple commercial decision. I really don't think it's the major, culture-redefining issue that some are making it out to be.
2. I don't think it's fair to talk about 'their country' when referring to Muslims who were born here, and whose parents were born here. It's not 'their' country. And in any case, not all Islamic countries are equally strict. Turkey, for example, is positively laid back.
3. One of the reasons I'm so vocal about defending freedom of religious expression, and the rights of all religious people to express a view about how we live in this country, is that Christians in the UK are becoming a minority. The number of people who bolster the numbers of Christians by claiming adherence, while not actually practising, is dropping dramatically. The country as a whole is becoming agnostic, if not outright atheist. It is not a good idea at this point to be suggesting that followers of any particular religion should quiet down and let the majority get on with it.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

0 AD Makes it 2008 years old.
If i`m wrong, please correct me but i thought that was when "It all started".

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Amazing how this thread has gone from "would you mind starting the gym club an hour later because some parents at this girls-only school would prefer their children not to mix with boys" to "we have no freedom of speech, we are being taken over, our Judeo-Christian beliefs are under terminal threat, etc etc"

Thank you, The Daily Express, your work here is done.........:dozey:

Next imflammatory story, please........

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

LOL, well not really a point on religion,more back on topic.A rather similar thing happened in the Southport area of Merseyside about 4 years ago.A new social housing developement was built only about 30 houses,cutting it short, about half were allocated to immigrant people. Naturally they sent their kids to the local school. Turned out that they were muslims,the population of the school (primary) was about 150,approx 15 muslim kids were enrolled. The result was unreal,they immediately demanded,and got seperate classes,one only had 2 pupils in it.The forthcoming Christmas party and play were cancelled and replaced by some bizzare festival involving the moon and stars?,they had to have their own playtimes and meal times,even a special meal was prepared for them.Soon they demanded their own private toilet and washing facilities,the council could'nt afford the alterations so they had the damn cheek to hand out letters asking for donations! Needless to say this very popular school became the worst performing in the area,no one wanted to send their kids there and within a year the reception class for newcomers was closed,meaning no more school.Within 3 years of the very few muslims attending,the school was closed,all because of the ridiculous pandering to this vehemant minority,these were only about 15 famillies,but they managed to totally ruin a pleasant area,the original new developement is now a no go area to local people. it is totally wrong that Muslims can arrive on our shores and dictate to us what happens and when,why the hell are we allowing this nonsense to happen!! BLOODY ANNOYED!

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

<pedant mode on>
Most people tend to associate Christianity in the UK with the arrival of Augustine (later St Augustine ;) ) in 597AD - so 1.5 thousand years, not "thousands"

<pedant mode off>

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

CHRIS i freely admit that i am intollerant of religion,any religion, and as a lay preacher i accept that you might find it hard to understand .Meanwhile back in the real world (i live in newcastle upon tyne)i am just an average bloke who goes to work in the local area which has a high population of most religions and i have witnessed first hand the prejudice and sometimes i dare to say hatred for any one who isn't muslim
i have done work in muslim houses some of which were fine and treated me with respect an equal amount have treated me with disrespect
I have also witnessed examples of sharia law,a practice amongst british muslims that at the moment is being discussed by religous groups as to whether it should be introduced into british law,i saw first hand what a hardline muslim does to their daughter if a man sees her face even if it is totaly by accident ,it wasn't pretty. I know what happens when a large group of muslims get together and presurise a local authority into closing down 12 buisness units all of which were used by small buisnesses one of which was a close friend of mine,to build a mosque with a 150ft prayer tower
so chris i apologize for not being as educated as you or maybe even not as tollerant but i live in the real world

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I think you`re right about the numbers of people taking a different line on Religion Chris.
I might as well just shut the **** up and keep my own beliefs to myself.:confused:
Thanks for the discussion though, nice to see other peoples points. Cheers. :)

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

Ok, Thanks for that mate.;)

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

:clap::clap:

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

least not that many of us think its a certain newspaper out to get us ;)

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Well I know someone who lives in the back streets of Newcastle and their experiences of the local differing religious communities is entirely more positive than that.

In fact it's the local Muslim neighbours who are taking care of my OP sister and brother-in-law by chasing off the local yobs and would be car thieves and helping to repair any vandalism in the area.The street is a mixture of differing ethnic groupings who all know each other and support each other...

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Don't somehow think it's 'us' certain newspapers are out to 'get'.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Trust me, it's not me they're "out to get"........ ;)

This thread is a perfect example (imho) of how something can be blown out of all proportion, when the all the facts are either not known or slanted a certain way, to inflame fear, xenophobia, and uncertainty.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

yes maggie,as i stated i also know and have done work for lots of really pleasant muslims whom i have alot of respect for as people.One particular muslim i worked for for 5 years .He came to this country in 1962 and started selling ties door to door now he is or was(not sure if he retired) one of the biggest private landlords to students in the west end .He is deeply religious and went to mosque every friday afternoon but would never condone the actions of some of the modern hard line muslims in the area

i should mention that if my previous post gave the appearance that newcastles's muslim community is hardline activists they are not i simply quoted a few personal negative examples for chris's benifit

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

the one thing every one seems to have lost sight of here is the children ,who are losing there gym:(

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

They don't have to work very hard do they.

Some of the comments I have read about muslims not wanting their kids to mix, how cowardly we are, how we are imposing our religion on britain, how our kids who were born in this country are not really british, just makes me shake my head.

Single sex schools existed in the UK for a long time. There are plenty of non muslim and non asian (the two can be very different - some people still fail to understand that) who prefer to send their kids to single sex schools. Are they just as 'cruel' as muslim parents for 'refusing to let their daughters mix with boys'

This morning I read that one in 5 men in the UK think its ok to slap their female partner (govt figures to be released later today I think). Why did it not suprise me that some of the Islamphobics on this forum would rather pick up on a bit of a non story then this one.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Anyway as papa smurf has pointed out the topic is really about these youngsters who may be losing their after school activity..It might have been nice if the paper had tried a slightly different slant to the story in that they could have appealed for an alternative venue from the community concerned.

In fact does anyone know if there were any alternatives offered elsewhere?

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I'm not trying to justify anything here, just an observation...

I think this is because to some people, if you're dark skinned then you were not born here. If you're 'Asian-looking' (some people seem to forget that China, Sri Lanka, The Philipines etc are in Asia too...) then you're obviously an asylum seeker, therefore 'a drain on our resources' etc and so because we agreed to take you in, you should not be trying to change 'our rules' etc.

And of course, you're all Muslim. Even the Christian ones. And if you're Muslim then as well as taking our money/jobs/houses/women/footballers then you're clearly capable of flying a plane in to a building.

So in other words, some people live in a tightly-enclosed bubble, only reading what The Sun has to offer.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I hadn't read this before but that's a terrific analogy..:clap::clap::clap:

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I remember a year or so back, Channel 4 (as part of a documentary) did some research and found that a high percentage of our population are not actually English if you use the BNP definition. Most people (be they white, black or brown) have some parts of their ancestry from other country.
Single sex schools have existed in the UK as long as schools have. At least several hundred years.

It does seem to be the case that that people assume that everyone who is Asian is a Muslim, and every Muslim is Asian. This is a little like saying that to be Catholic you have to be Italian, or that every Italian is Catholic. Most people would agree that neither is true.

I have a few Muslim friends and I have to admit, I find that Muslims from some countries follow the Koran a little more rigidly than Muslims from others but, again, I have found the same with other religions. Having said that, there are exceptions. I used to have a friend who was white and English but converted and she followed the Koran more rigidly than anyone else I have met.

Sadly, we do, as a forum, appear to be attracting a more racist membership. While I am happy for people to have their own views (indeed, I encourage it even if I disagree with those views), I am not entirely happy with the amount of bordeline racist threads.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

No offense mate but why dont those of you that do not want to be tarred by the brush stand up and be counted? I fully understand the vast majority of muslims do not want any of this they do not want the jihad or problems and are happy in this country.

I would be a lot more comfortable with the whole situation if passive Muslims were to report those that go to the meeting where hatred is preached . I would be a lot more comfortable if passive Muslims would report all members of their society who are active fundalmentalists.I would be alot more comfortable if the heads of your society would stand up and say hang on a minute we are happy here we do not want change like this we are happy and want to be British. The problem I have is we do not see enough of this .

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

It does happen..but certain newspapers with an agenda simply don't publicise it or those with moderate voices because it's not what sells a newspaper.Only conflict gets people buying papers these days it seems.:(

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I do not see enough of it anywhere Maggy. Muslim leaders could easily raise this profile if they wanted to. Look at when the police were looking for them bombers years ago. They were on the run for ages. There is no way no one knew where they were in the community but they were not grassed up

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Quite. I have seen multiple Muslims speak out on places like Sky News, the BBC and others. As well as columnists in some of the more serious newspapers. It never seems to make it to the rags though, even in the above examples they tend not to give them prominence. Especially if they can find some hatred filled preacher..

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

They could go on a we are happy and content march. It would be easy as I say to raise this profile if they wanted to

The hatred filled preacher should be removed from office by heads of the community. They should not be allowed anywhere near the mosques. If Muslim leaders did this then I would have a hell of a lot more trust in them :)

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

You're twisting my point and you know it. I specifically tried to head you off on this already:

My parents encouraged me to mix with both sexes of children (and adults) as not only is it completely normal in the western world for male and females to associate freely, its a necessity to help form healthy relationships. You know damn well in the Muslim or Arab world, that's not the case. In many Muslims countries, women aren't allowed in public alone or aren't allowed in the company of an unknown man alone. Some women that are, aren't allowed to even shake hands with men. In a lot of these cases their spouse is chosen for them. You may not like it, but you can't argue it isn't true.

This gym does not affect classes at all. They are still single sex. What the Muslim parents don't like is having boys in and around the school whilst their uncovered girls are walking about in between. If these parents take that Saudi-Arabian attitude then how are the girls going to be free to go out after school and mix freely with both sexes? They aren't.

Before you go on about me being anti-Muslim or racist or whatever, i'm not. I'm not saying all Muslims are like this, but like it or not, some do believe in the hard-line Saudi-Arabian line for their families.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Terrorism Experts do state that Terrorist Cells operate in a very isolated way. Preventing others, even close family members, from knowing what they are up too. For obvious reason.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

yeah right so when there are photofit images of suspects no one ever sees them yeah yeah

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

And who are you to dictate how they bring their kids up? You don't like it, fine, you're entitled to your opinion. As a matter of fact I'm a bit ambivalent about it myself. But I absolutely defend their right to make their own parenting choices, and I applaud their willingness to back up their convictions with actions and hard cash, paying for their daughters to get the educational environment they want for them.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I defend parents' rights to raise children according to their beliefs but not when those beliefs are tantamount to abuse. Isolating girls from associating freely with the other sex is not only unhealthy for social development, its an abuse of human rights. Amnesty International and the UN with their women's action programs have been riling against this for years.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

They blew themselves up? What good would photofit images do?

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

"Tantamount to abuse" ... is that like saying you'd like to be able to say it's child abuse except that it isn't, really? And are you seriously suggesting, on the evidence available, that the families involved in this situation are treating their daughters in exactly the way Amnesty International has been campaigning about? That would be absolutely extraordinary, if true.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

We do seem to have strayed a long way from the topic...:erm:

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Actually I think we've looped around and aren't so very far away at the moment. ;)

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Ah another chap who won't ask for directions...;)

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

no there was the failed attempt remember one of them got out the country in a burka

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

was the the one the week after? Could have sworn the 4 bombers died.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Fine, take out the "tantamount to" bit out if you're really going to take the mickey.

The fact is children need to mix freely with both sexes to be able to develop socially and be able to form healthy relationships. This isn't a western concept, its a human concept.

If these parents are unhappy that boys will be passing near to their daughters whilst going in and out the gym, I think its highly unlikely these daughters will be allowed to go out and mix with other children freely, unsupervised. That is exactly what AI campaign about.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I'm not taking the mickey, I'm trying to find out if you understand the gravity of what you're saying. Some people bandy about the word 'abuse' far too casually.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_July...ondon_bombings

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Fair enough.

I consider restricting the free association of children (and adults) to be harmful to their social development and wellbeing. I think harmful and abusive are synonyms here. That's my train of thought leading up into the post.

BTW, i'm not saying as Russ has been accused of in the past that raising children within a religous guise is abusive. Its not. However the devil is in the details.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I agree..

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Excuse me but who are you to say that muslim parents who send their daughters to single sex schools are a) stopping their girls from mixing, b) abusing their human rights - as you imply in a further post. In some muslim countries women don't travel alone, or mix freely with men alone, but are you telling me that the mixing of men and women doesn't go on? Additionally you seem to think what happens in Teran and Riyadh is what happens in all muslim homes in the UK?

Anti muslim? racist? All the negative comments in this thread have a totally anti Islamic view to them. The usual generalisations have been made against muslims - rather boring by now. Granted there are countries in the muslim world where men and women dont mix in the open - but for you to conclude that it doesn't happen at all is an ignorant view point. Rather then ask or look at other reasons as to why people might object - i.e the fact that the parents have paid their daughters to go to a single sex school, where in most likelyhood at the time of taking their money, the school assured them it was a single sex environment, that is no longer the case. I.e - you pay for something, half way through your contract its changed, and then you complain.

I went to a single sex school, my sisters went to a single sex school, my nieces went to single sex schools. They all mix freely. You also seem to forget that alot of these girls will end up in mixed universities. Have you been into a london university lately? If not take a look. There are many muslim girls in there in a mixed environment and they have not suffered from going to single sex schools.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

And that is precisely why my comments aren't anti-Islamic. I would say the same about any religion or culture who believes in the separation in sexes in that way. I am not pointing the finger at Islam but at these parents.

I've explained my reasoning numerous times, if that's not good enough for you, then i'm sorry. Its all you're going to get. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

No, you are pointing the finger at Islam and that these parents are taking the stance they did because of religion. You have made assumptions that these parents dont allow their kids to mix freely, citing muslim countries, and the religion - of which in my opinion you have a high ignorance of- and somehow are abusing their rights and ability to develop, based on the fact that they are muslims.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Sorry you aren't laying that old chestnut on me.

I have freely discussed that Muslims outside of countries like Saudi Arabia do not practice sexual segregation and at every conceivable have tried to separate the practices of sexual segregation and Islam.

One of the many counters to the laughable concept that I am ignorant and anti-Muslim, I am actually going to a Muslim country on holiday soon. Whilst there I am going to have respect Muslim rules and their culture. The trip is entirely voluntary.

You need to remove that sizeable chip off your shoulder and drop the Islamic victimisation complex. Not every post that mentions Islam or Muslims is an attack on Islam despite what you want to believe.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

It might be nice if a few others dropped the poor old Christian or British being overwhelmed by those nasty evil Muslims who are all trying to change our way of life as well punky...it does work both ways.:erm:

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

if Muslims do not mind mixing then why do they mind this gym? do you not see the contradiction?

If it is a minority of Muslims that would see this as a problem then I see no reason to pander to them because if its ok for this mix in Islamic law then they have no grounds at all to complain

Its like the Burka which I believe is a choice thing and not a religious doctrine? if that is the case then Muslims wearing these have no grounds to complain if requested to remove them in banks etc

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Your words, not mine.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

In fairness to SLM, he could be making the point that *some* muslims mind. This does not imply that *all* muslims mind any more than (say) saying some Christians object to Homosexuality implies that all Christians do.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Maggy Muslims originally come here for a reason imo they have no right to make demands on our culture. Live and let live let them live how they wish in their own homes or society thats fine I have no problem with that but cases like this where our culture isnt given priority that guiles me

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:11 ----------

some all one or more does not matter it simply shows these rules are not set in doctrine and therefore can not be used as a reason

Either those living SLM way are doing it by the book or those who dont mix are both of them can not be following the same rules

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

The rules are, as I understand them, that it is wrong for Males and Females to mix. At least for Muslims. I personally think that we should all be encouraged to mix with the opposite sex. Some Muslims do not follow that ideal. I bought up the example of homosexuality with good reason. As I understand it, the Bible is fairly explicit in it's condemnation of homosexuality, so if a Christian is to follow the bible to the letter, they should condemn homosexuality. Not all Christians do.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Well if that is a religious doctrine those that do not follow it are not devout Muslims surely? I am as some know a none practising Jehovas Witness and I became inactive because I would not be a hipocrite. I could not follow the lifestyle that I needed to to follow that religion so instead of doing what I want and still call myself a JW I left.

If you are going to live your life by a doctrine you can not pick or choose which parts you follow if you do you are being false to your God

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

:confused:

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

:clap: bringing up the concept of secondary issues (or tertiary and so on) is an important idea. To me (perhaps in my imaginings) you and zinglebarb are saying more similar things than you perhaps think. For me how worked up people get about secondary or tertiary issues is an acid test of how conservative (or in the language of the day that I don't like how "extreme" or "fundamentalist") they are. It is so applicable to so many of these arguments.

I think it's a shame that a gym has closed over such a minor issue.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

the topics moved on and I did link you to information. 4 were hunted 2 were arrested quite quickly the 3rd was arrested soon after and a 4th was arrested in Rome

here is your information about the one that escaped in a Burka so no longer be confussed

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4316561.ece

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Who decides on behalf of everyone in that faith which version to follow, as different sections of the faith interpret things differently - for instance, I am Christian, but I won't sell my daughter into slavery, or burn my mother for wearing mixed fibre clothing, or put my colleagues to death for working on Sunday.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

you been out dude? can see you posting quite a few questions and contrary remarks for a while. I will let you catch up mate

I was a bit mixed up with the Burka info but I did remember some of it unlike your goodself

From a little bit of googling I got it mixed up with a murderer who escaped the country in a burka

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

It was specifically in reply to your post above which included "If you are going to live your life by a doctrine you can not pick or choose which parts you follow if you do you are being false to your God ".

You seem to be stating all or nothing - I was highlighting that perhaps it isn't so black and white to some people.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Which version of Christianity promotes any of those?

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Well we would need Muslim religious leaders to let us know that . I am sure the Koran is interpreted in different ways if it wasnt then perhaps every Muslim would believe in the Jihad afterall it is pretty clear that its there in the Koran. My point is you either follow your religion 100% to the best of your knowledge or you are false to it. I could not live my life so I left. I am sure this mixing point should be pretty clear? some links to corresponding scriptures would be nice from some of my Muslim friends :)

God did not say to Moses thou shalt not steal but its ok if its really nice and you really want it did he ;)

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I know the bible is open to interpretation but, :erm:, there's a fair bit of artistic licence there.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

No gym has closed. A gymnastics club has been told to find somewhere else to hold its classes after rejecting the chance to continue using the school, but later in the evening. However it is welcome to use the school premises until the end of the current term (3rd April).

I will be incredibly surprised if the talkative Mr Perry has not found space elsewhere by then - or else come round to the idea of remaining at the school with a later start time. After all, as he was so keen to tell the papers, its 250 kids, five nights a week. I can't see him being keen to just pack that in.

Of course the cold hard facts don't make quite such an eye-catching headline, so it's not surprising so many people have been misled by the Daily Express' take on this ("School gym forced to shut by muslims").

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

It's a very important point though. Between Stuart C and Zinglebarb they've pretty much managed to highlight the problem with nearly all religious arguments in just a couple of posts.

That's the whole point of these issues like gyms closing that crops up. It is normally the case that

1. Someone in the past has declared x to be important, over time it's not talked about so much and becomes less relevent.
2.At date y it crops up and some subgroup that worries about x gets angry because x has cropped up.
3.The rest of that religion isn't so bothered about it/not affected. The subgroup feels oppressed because with their beliefs they relate it as a primary issue for them and say so.
4. At which point someone comes along and says but the rest of your religion isn't so bothered about it.
5. Subgroup gets offended and says they are picking on their religion. If someone from that religion makes the remark it ends up as an argument within that religion. If it's an outsider then it's christians/atheists/non-whatevers picking on them and not "respecting" their views.
6. The whole argument probably goes on and on without too much of anybody really saying why they think such and such and lack of perspective to see past the issue (gym closing in this case).

As for gym closing I do mean not being able to use facilities as before and I do think that is a shame. In some circumstances it could be a big nuisance.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

This scripture does appear to make it pretty clear which does in fact back up those who complained about the gym. So how can this be interpreted in another way?

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

It might have been so much more helpful if the papers has emphasised the need to find an alternative suitable venue and got the public's assistance in doing so.:rolleyes:

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Sadly the national Press isn't primarily concerned with being 'helpful'. The Daily Mail is concerned with blaming all our ills on everyone who can't prove at least 5 generations of native British ancestry and the Daily Express is concerned with shoring up its plummetting circulation by trying to out-do the Daily Mail.

Hence odious, distorted tales like this one.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I'm just saying non-corporate style gyms are quite rare in some areas. Finding a sufficiently cheap and suitable venue (in terms of distance, safety and space) I can imagine would be a serious headache. I don't regard the story as too much of a distortion in the sense that (a) services were ending, what is meant to me as "school gym" (b) it appears to be because of some pseudoreligious reason.

If someone gets worked up about some secondary issue, I can't really blame the papers for going for the jugular. It's fair cop in my eyes. Moreover the paper story might not be functionally useless as bringing up the issue may prevent it happening elsewhere or might mitigate a compromise.

As for the non-British stuff, I don't have any time for that, but on the other hand I'm not really too impressed by people getting offended at the smallest thing.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

I think it may be a altered quote from the West Wing. The point of which is no Christian follows every section of the bible, or better put, not every sentence is the Bible is literally true, (one of which, I believe, states the penalty for working on the Sabbath is death?) Even if the overall point of that passage is?.

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

You're confusing 'true' with 'applicable'. Very different concepts. But for another topic. ;)

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That is a rather black and white view... First, you appear to be assuming all muslims are devout (they aren't), and you appear to be assuming that all muslims follow the same doctrine (they don't, AFAIK).

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Here is the link for the West Wing.

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as far as I am aware there is only one Koran so how can they follow different versions of it? sometimes things really are black and white. The rules of whatever religion you follow will be laid out for the follower pretty early on so the follower knows the score. He/she then chooses if he /she is going to follow these rules if they choose to then they are following the teachings of their church if they choose not to then they do not

---------- Post added at 17:54 ---------- Previous post was at 17:52 ----------

its also been reported in the Telegraph

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Renowned for it's left-wing bias and pinko sympathies.....;)

(I know, because I read it (and the Times).....)

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Does that mean you support the Telegraphs reports or not lol :)

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No, because I don't believe everything I read, especially if I know the periodical has an innate bias. ;)

Why reinforce my prejudices - I would rather challenge them. :D

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There are, however, different ways to interpret it.

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yeah but church leaders will teach it and the follower will decide whether to follow the rules or not it is that simple

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Re the Bible - which Church leader, and which version of the Bible?

Or isn't it that simple?;)

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Just because you can ask a question in 9 words doesn't mean the answer has to be. ;)

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there is nothing simple about religion--as i see it the goal posts get a regular shuffle ;)

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it is that simple. You go to a catholic church you need to learn the basics before you take communion so you know the rules per that churchs doctrine you choose to live by them or not of course if you choose not you can go and confess simple

If you are a JW you have to do bible studies and learn a certain amount before you are baptised you then choose to live by the rules or not simple

You are a Muslim and go to the Mosque I am pretty sure they teach you the rules early on you then choose to live by them or not simple

The differences in religions are complicated whether or not you live by the laws of said religion is you got it simple ;)

edit these points directly to the faith as being followed and whether folling a doctrine is choice or part of the doctrine. So identifying if its doctrine or personal relates to topic of females being allowed to mix with males (just to show I am not deliberately posting off topic)

Re: School gym forced to shut
 

Hey guys

I do not understand why there is the issue of religion, Quran, "muslims are cowards" etc come into this topic. The way I see it is that the school in question is an independent all girls school. Their parents have paid so much money for them to be "well taught" and be segregated from boys. Simple, why make something so simple into something it is not.

You may say well that the gym is being used after school hours, that still does not matter seeing as the gym is based inside the school (correct me if im wrong) and the girl students are bound to be there as it is school facility which the parents are paying for.

If this was an ordinary comprehensive school then I would have sympathized with many people on here but what I'm trying to say is the parents argument is justified for this specific case. Media propaganda eh lol seems to be the new fashion "all these Muslims in our country are corrupt and terrorists".

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It will not get in the way of the education in any way?

We argue the justice on the forum we make absolutely no difference what so ever to what goes on but we discuss if we think it is just or not

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think i'll stick to the dark side

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OK.. Explain this. I have been to weddings at two Catholic churches (actually more, but two of them fit this example well). At one, the priest denounced all non-believers (ie me) as Heathens and they should be treated as such. At another, the priest said that Catholics should welcome all people. Believers and non-believers. Two priests, both using the same Bible, and both supposedly teaching the same thing. Yet not.

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------

Actually, that is a good point.. The school is privately owned so they can hire out the space to whomever they wish.

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well thats Catholics for you ;) each congregation still gets to choose if they follow what is taught. Even if one teaches wrong the individual gets to choose.

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Dont know if this is off topic and if it is I'm sorry but after reading this thread and seeing what people have to say I would surgest that we all judge people on there own merits and not on what they beleive or were they are from.

Regarding this specific issue at hand I believe that there was an fair attempt made for a comprosmise by starting the gym a little later at 6:30 but that seems to have just been thrown out the window.

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I think the school are wrong to kick them out either on religious, or independent school v everybody else, or one sex v the other. If the independent school wants a mature relationship with the outside community it should operate a reasonable policy. This is not a muslim bashing thread at all, some people on here find it just as wrong whether it's muslims causing it or not.

It may be based inside the school but is not inside of school hours as far as I can tell. These children are not being forced to go to the gym so I don't see the problem of peacefully coexisting. If the piece is to believed the lot being kicked out contain some in a vurnerable group (young). The attitude rather of one of compassion and understanding seems to be one of immaturity just applying some far reaching abitrary objection based solely on the gender (and if it is to be believed, religion in some cases).

If it were an ordinary comprehensive school it would be totally out of order. Let's be frank, the media coverage in general is not very weighted. On the one end of the scale you have all the wailing and nonsense about terrorism and inflamatory language but the other end of the scale is just as much as a nonsense talking about muslims in the abstract being "moderate" and dragging on "leaders" of the community that are not really represenative. Both sides of the coverage are just as daft.

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Re: School gym forced to shut
 

sorry to go off-topic here but i think it's important to say all this hate that is shown towards Muslims not just in this thread but throughout the world because of the actions of a small minority of Muslims will cause more drift between the moderate Muslim, it's sad to say but some people (bnp) want this to happen.

More Muslims will be radicalised by this hate shown towards them. It doesn't help the overall situation that we are dealing with on a day to day basis.

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being critical of, and being fed up to the back teeth of them trying to change our great nation one step at a time is hardly racist/hate, its just voicing opinion , and if more Muslims are radicalised because they cant take criticism i wont lose any sleep over it.
any hoo lets hope the kids can find a new venue for the gym thats whats important here not our views on religion

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i would like to offer another explanation as to why the parents in question objected to the gym club.

The school in question ,old palace school ,croydon,(former home of the arch bishop of canterbury)is a private/independant school of mixed ethnicity for girls age 5-18yrs,it's religious leaning is church of england, it also has a chapel and is a registered charity.
given these facts i find it hard to believe that the parents who have objected to the after school gym club because it has boys in it(some as young as 5yrs that's why the organiser won't move the club to a later time)are "hard line Muslims" at all .If they were then they would not send there daughters to a church of England school.

I think they are plain and simple unrelenting snobs and cannot stand the thought of boys even being on the premises when they have paid "good money" to keep their little darlings away from boys

if on the other hand they are quoting religious reasons for creating such a fuss about nothing then they are the biggest hypocrites in gods creation and i would like to know how they can justify "picking and choosing"which part of their religion they enforce

Having looked on the schools website at the numerous promotional photos they show pictures of many girls ,possibly muslim possibly not,i cannot tell because they all have the same uniform on,not a single veil in sight I assume they have male teachers as-well which would mean that the muslim girls are coming into contact with males which is what this discussion is all about
so i hope the people in question are snobs because that's easily dealt with
if on the other hand the gym club has to be closed or moved on religious grounds then the school has a really big problem considering how it claims to support the local community

quote from the schools web site

" developing, throughout the community, supportive and constructive relationships based on mutual respect and understanding, upholding the values and Christian ideals of our Founders";

i think that all parties should get round a table and show a bit of common sense and leave religion out of it..and perhaps ask the children what they want