Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

And are Hamas and their followers breaching international law with the rockets, mortars, and suicide bombers?

This does not make what Israel is doing right, but surely what Hamas and others are doing is wrong as well?

btw, from the BBC article quoted earlier -
"The Egyptian foreign minister has accused Hamas of not allowing injured Palestinians to leave Gaza to seek treatment, even though much-needed medical supplies are waiting at the nearby El-Arish airport"; because there is, of course, an Egyptian-Gaza border crossing in the south of the Gaza Strip (as the Egyptians ruled the Gaza Strip until the '67 war).

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You may not like international law but it is there and the ideas mark a great milestone in human achievement. I am not debating this anymore as you have simply deployed straw men and ad hominems. The point of my post was to challenge your points in international law and get clarification. I think from replies from this I can see an utter contempt for it, which made me glad I raised the point.

I wish the people in the middle east peace, hopefully the incoming administration can take an interest in it akin to the Carter Administration and get things moving in the right direction.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

We aim to please.:soapbox::sniper:

Like I told you, I`m a soldier, not a politician. I dont dictate the policy, governments do. I tell you the way it is, from first hand experience.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Hows this one for you then? Straight from Wiki

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/12/3.png

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Wrong and international law are not necessarily the same thing. What Hamas are doing is clearly wrong, other than in some warped, conditioned mind, one that would probably be found somewhere in well, unfortunately the middle east.

Hamas have been the government, or as documentation would describe it the de facto authority since 2006. So there may be a case to answer, they could certainly be investigated with their followers but that would be harder to gather evidence against. Pinning something on the authority when Arafat was incharge though, certainly not. So the question is whether Hamas sponsored stuff since they have been in government amounts to a widespread enough practice to be called a Crime Against Humanity. The answer is probably, no.

The other point of interest here is that the Israeli Military and some other countries round the world don't see Hamas as a legitimate government and they have no right to go round trying to change it to something else, as their intention seems to be. The civilian deaths and trying to (again) dismantle the proto-government will probably either reinforce Hamas (in which case the only winners are Hamas and the Israeli military) or some other realignment where some other political organisation that the Israeli military will also take a disliking to will take power(ish) and we can go through yet another cycle of this.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I see you bring this up again (trying to make out civilians were deliberately targetted), remind us, didn't you say the same thing about the RAF bombers over Dresden?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

No I don't believe I did, what I do recall saying is that if Dresden happened to day it'd be a war crime.

I don't need to make out they are being targetted, the numbers speak for themselves and I don't actually believe they are being deliberately targetted, I don't think Israel gives anymore of a damn about them than Hamas.

Clarify it enough for you?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Foreverwar, you have been

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/12/4.jpg

Foreverwar: perhaps you need to look further than your usual "reliable" :rolleyes: CIA sources.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

First all of all Foreverwar has not been 'pwned', he only said that chaos should get it from other sources other than a anti-sementic site. I also believe that site shows the Jewish statlements I have referring too. (I was kindly informed to 'educate' myself when I made that remark)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

No he is not, Foreverwar is trying to rewrite history. Its a fact that Palestine has been wiped off the map by Israel in collaberation with the US and UK.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

What I find suprising is that Israel have not allowed foreign aid into Gaza in order to help deal with saving the lives of the civilian casualties. That is an abhorent stance to take.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Everyone is entitled to a view, no matter how accurate or misguided that view is... Now can I suggest we concentrate more on the actual topic than on each other....

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Except they have been.
You also have to remember the UN and various aid agencies have been complicit in terrorist attacks against Israel, so they can't just open the borders and wave them through, hence the restriction on aid, but it has been getting through. Just because it's not been reported by Auntie doesn't mean it isn't happening, never forget that.
Even when Israel claims it's closed the borders to all travel, it still allows aid through, just not in floods.
Course, if Gazans had spent their time building up a nation rather than trying to destroy one (and their leaders lining their own pockets in the process), they wouldn't need aid.

Chaos, thanks once again for shooting yourself in the foot by proving Damien's point.
Oh you're also forgetting the Soviet Union and their support for Israel.
I'm not suprised though that you aren't aware that under the British everyone to the east and west of the Jordan river were palestinians, no matter their religion.
So, what are your views on the Jordanian occupation of Palestine? Afterall, they occupy a much larger area than the west bank or gaza.

What are your comments on Jordan and Egypt's post '48 occupation of Gaza and the West Bank?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Even when Israel claims it's closed the borders to all travel, it still allows aid through, just not in floods. Evidence please........

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Borders closed but they allow aid through (aunty reports it as border being opened, but then no other traffic is allowed through, so the border isn't open) although it does have the decency to report that while the border was sealed supplies were allowed through later in the article, oh and this is while Israel was under attack from rockets during the "ceasefire"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7733511.stm

Here's one that mentions the borders being clamped tight apart from essentials (and it also mentions some palestinian school girls who were murdered by gazan militants in a rocket attack)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_153539.html
Interesting it mentions Egypt, they're keeping their border shut too you know, but hey, they're not Israel so is it ok for them to do that?

Talking of which, this somewhat bias blog reports: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/200...into-gaza.html
Now, would you care to actually answer the points I raised?
How do you feel about the Jordanian and Egyptian occupations post '48?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/12/4.png
Also from Wiki article on Palestine - Palestine mandate in 1923 (issued by League of Nations); someone else appears to have claimed large chunks of territory.

btw, may I point out that I am not pro-Israel - I am pro even-handedness. I think the Israelis are over-reacting (as I have said before in this thread), but I also think they are being provoked into this - no one is "innocent" in this debacle, but I think only the Israelis have the power to defuse the situation, but as they have an election early next year, none of the politicians can afford to be seen as "weak on terrorism".

There is a lot of history and bad feeling (on both sides, as the Gaza Strip is governed by a different party to the rest of Palestine), and trying to say "Israeli evil" or "Hamas evil" doesn't (imho) help solve the problem.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Xaccers, if you read the article regarding aid on the 17th November, you will see that this coincided with Eid so to me, its more a public relations excercise then anything else. Additionally it's all pretty restricted.

You are right, since the mass bombardment and slaughtering of non militant women, men and children border hardly any aid has gone through. Border controls have only been open today have they not? It is all very controlled and restricted, awaiting examination.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

S_l_m,

they are examined because weapons have been smuggled through this way before.

Also, there is a border crossing on the Egyptian border, with exactly the same restrictions - no one seems to focus on this.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Egypt and Jordan are no longer occupying palestine, They occupied Palestine land to protect the Palestinian people from ZIONIST occupation. When Egypt and Jordan left the Israelis occupied this land as well. they didnt oppress its people The Israelis are not only occupying Palestine, they are wiping Palestine and the Palestinian people from the map.

Unfortunatly,today, Egypt is controlled by a puppet government and are collaberating with the west.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

From the Times:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Nice find Ramrod..that sums up the whole situation nicely..:clap:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Really?
They were "protecting" the palestinian people and not oppressing them? The Palestinians I know who managed to get out of Judea when it was annexed by Jordan would disagree.
That'll be while the Jordanians and Egyptians treated them like dogs, failing to feed them or give adequite medical aid.
You'll notice how the palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have houses, yes? Under Jordanian and Egyptian control, they were in tents, malnutrition and disease was rife. I've seen first hand photographs taken by a friend of mine who fought in the '67 war of the camps around the dead sea. How the Jordanians treated their fellow Palestinians was far worse than any accusation against Israel's treatment of them.
One of the fist things that the Israelis did when they pushed back the attacking armies was actually take responsibility over the refrugees and give them medical aid, which continues to this day, where people from the territories recieve free Israeli medical care (something Israeli's don't get themselves). Of course you'll be unable to acknowledge that won't you, what with it adding shades of grey to your black and white image of the situation.

You may also (although for some reason it appears to have slipped your mind) have noticed that Israel isn't attacking the West Bank, why do you think that is? Could it be because they've not been attacking Israel? Oh wait, that's something else you won't be able to agree with because it backs up the idea that Israel is defending itself against the gazans, and you can't have that now can you?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Allows aid through for the cameras sporadically at best, if they did people wouldn't have to eat grass

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5338014.ece

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------

Are Egypt in control of the air space and sea around Gaza and also why is it Israel keeps criticising Egypt for not keeping the border sealed fully tight.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

noticed that Israel isn't attacking the West Bank, why do you think that is

Thats because Gaza is not under the Zionists control. Hamas was democratically elected after free and fair elections, they dont like that.

Here it is in black and white for you


Hitler comes to power who is a CHRISTIAN

Millons of Jews die in the holocaust(in EUROPE) instigated by Hitler(a CHRISTIAN) and his henchmen.

The Palestinian Homeland, where Palestinians live and who are mostly MUSLIM, have their land stolen and given to the jews who oppress the Palestinians and steal more and more of their land.

So, a crime committed by christians in EUROPE, is then paid for by the MUSLIMS(Palestinians), who have their homeland taken away, through no fault of their own,which is then given to the Jews. The Jews then oppress the Palesinians for 60 years


Now i ask you - is that fair??Is that logical??

There are many Kurds living in the UK at the moment, they dont have a homeland either, They are oppressed by the Turks etc. Would you object to them being given British land and renaming it Kurdistan?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It's all very well to look at the history of the region over the past 60 years and blaming Egypt and Jordan for their part in the suffering of the Palestinians. This somehow is used to justify Israel's actions.

We have to remember that it wasn't Egyptian or Jordanian banks that flattened Gaza as their troops were withdrawing, it's not Egyptians and Jordanians that are now oppressing palestinians in Gaza, by sealing off borders, by refusing sufficient international aid, by not allowing them to travel outside Gaza to look for work.

I have spoken to Palestinians who have had their sisters raped by Israeli soldiers, had pictures taken off them afterwards and threatened to have them distributed locally unless they spy for the Israelis. I have also spoken to Palestinians who's fathers have been tortured by Israeli soldiers, these are civilians, not soldiers or 'terrorists'. We have all seen scores of children being killed and accepted as collateral damage because a leader of Hamas was attending a mosque at the time of prayer.

It's all very well saying Palestinians suffered under the hands of Egyptians and Jordanians, but in all honesty, the current anger amongst palestinians and many people, muslims and non muslims, around the world, is that Israel continue to oppress the Palestinians. It's the blasai (sp?) attitude that the Israelis have in thinking its ok to kill hundreds of civilians because they 'support' Hamas, or that murdering children is fine because they happen to be caught up in the crossfire.

---------- Post added at 16:38 ---------- Previous post was at 15:55 ----------

This is laughable, and reinforces my views on the blatant disregard that the israeli government has on civilians.

But Israel's deputy ambassador in London, Talya Lador-Fresher said security institutions and Hamas had been targeted and most casualties were "people in uniform, Hamas operatives that were busy trying to launch rockets and doing terror attacks against Israeli citizens". (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7802733.stm)

I am having difficulty trying to post some pics, but it wont be hard for people to have a look at some of the pictures and see how this statement is laughable.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I do wish you'd learn how to quote, really, it isn't difficult.

Anyway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H...igious_beliefs
Again you're showing your ignorance of history Chaos, exactly how old are you?
You talk of elections, but ignore that Abbas was elected with 62% of the vote.
You also ignore that he, a democratically elected president, dissolved the Unity Government (probably because you had no idea about it, go on, prove me wrong).
So, unless you're saying that the palestinians should only have democracy if it suits Hamas, either you value their democratic process, or you do not. You can't pick and choose, much as you're trying to.

Your own map showed the amount of Jewish owned land, you're also forgetting that Palestine has never existed as a sovereign state, whereas Israel has. So if you're objecting to people being historically pushed out of land, then why not object to the Israelis being pushed out before?

I also note your lack of comment on the current Jordanian occupation of the larger part of what was known as palestine.

No, instead they offered them no work, gave them no food or medical supplies, made them live in tents.
As for "flattening Gaza" when they withdrew, that's an excellent example of the ignorance of the situation.
The PA agreed to Israeli homes in Gaza being destroyed so that they would not have the issue of what to do with them and the riots they feared would ensue.

Whereas Hamas think it's ok to deliberately target civilians rather than catch them in a crossfire or because they're close to military targets (which funnily enough Israel doesn't tend to place near civilians, unlike Hamas)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Maybe you can answer my question:

There are many Kurds living in the UK at the moment, they dont have a homeland either, They are oppressed by the Turks etc. Would you object to them being given British land and renaming it Kurdistan?

Hitler was brought up as Roman Catholic: Is that not correct?

So if you're objecting to people being historically pushed out of land, then why not object to the Israelis being pushed out before?


Because the land was not theirs to be pushed out from:rolleyes:

Do you know why ABBAS disolved the unity government - because the zionists rejected it, if Hamas and Fatah were involved they would not deal with them. Further evidence that Abbas is a puppet.

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:11 ----------

Whereas Hamas think it's ok to deliberately target civilians rather than catch them in a crossfire or because they're close to military targets (which funnily enough Israel doesn't tend to place near civilians, unlike Hamas)

LINK PLEASE

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The destruction of the occupied Jewish state began in AD 70, with the seige and then destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman general, Titus. This was followed by the fall of other Jewish strongholds, notably the fortress at Masada. Josephus says more than a million people died during the seige; afterwards about 97,000 were enslaved. A great many fled to other parts of the Med. This was only the first Jewish-Roman war, but by the end of it, anything recognisable of ancient Israel was gone, because Titus had the temple razed to the ground.

This is a matter of historical fact. There was a nation called Israel, it was occupied, divided into Roman provinces, and when the natives got too restelss, it was brutally destroyed. So yes, the Jews were 'pushed out', and the descendents of those people do have a historical claim to the land west of the Jordan river.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Chaos, you do know Hitler was not really religious? I don't care what he was brought up as, he was not a Roman Catholic. I went to a Roman Catholic primary school, I had done confessions and had the first communion, but I am a atheist.

People's faith is not decided by a form, or their background, it's decided by them. Hitler was clearly not a religious man.

Also the post above, by Chris, is a good post. You should take it in rather than dismissing it out of hand because it's not been approved by Prison Planet or wherever you get your facts from..

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Time to leave this thread as i have done a few others lately because some posters are not interested in discussing the subject they are only on here to serve their personal agenda which knows no fact or reason so cya later all.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

How do you know Hitler was not religious? Anyway that besides the point, my point was that the atrocities carried out against the Jews were not carried out by Muslims, but Christians from Europe, so why did the Muslims have their land taken and given to the Jews?

With reference to Chris's point, the state of Israel was established in May 1948, before that time Israel did not exsist.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Wiki1
"The Land of Israel, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland;[24][25] scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE.[26] According to the traditional view, around the 11th century BCE, the first of a series of Israelite kingdoms and states established rule over the region; these Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently for the following one thousand years.[27] The sites holiest to Judaism are located within Israel.
Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule"

Wiki2
"By c. 1190 BCE, the Philistines arrived and mingled with the local population, losing their separate identity over several generations."

Both sets of tribes/peoples appear to have arrived about the same time, approx 3000 years ago.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

He is suggesting that Holocaust was a Western or Christian crime and the state of Israel was formed to atone for these crimes, but those paying the price are Muslims....I disagree with a lot of the characterisation of that, but what else is new.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

One of the reasons people cannot get together & work things out is that they continually bring up the past. Now the immediate past is relevant, but can you imagine negotiating with someone, trying to find some common ground, when they start ranting about Hitler!, or their ancestors 2000 years ago.

Lets get real, the threat is here & now. Ceasefire. Negotiate for the future, not the past. The past is gone, dead & buried.

We know what the situation is, we know only violence or diplomacy can end it. If this thread is anything to go by, there will never be peace. Someone has to swallow their pride & say enough is enough.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It appeared to be (mostly) working during the ceasefire, but that has lapsed.

Let's hope all this killing and mayhem will stop, and people can get round the table again and try to agree a way forward.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well it's not helpful and I reckon it's not on topic..it's the usual trick of trying to confuse matters because he hasn't got a logical point to make and reverts to red herrings to push the thread off topic in the hope we will all forget what point he failed to make...which is becoming extremely annoying.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

There was not state of Israel though:rolleyes:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

And there was no "state of Palestine" either - the area has been ruled by the Arab Caliphate, the Ottomans, the Egyptians (then the Ottomans again), and then the British Mandate, before the proposed United Nations Partition plan for Palestine in 1948.

Two questions -
a) you seem to keep ignoring the matter of the Trans-Jordanian part of the Palestine Mandate, which the Jordanians now have - should this also be given to the Palestinian people?

b) what should happen to all the Israelis who live in that area now?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Now you're mincing words. Badly.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Agreed, Conversation never benefits from the addition of Hitler to the debate.

I think we are all fed up with the both of the groups (treating Hamas/Hizbollah etc as one group here). Who on earth gains from firing a missile into Israel? What does Hamas think they are doing to other than more support from people who support them anyway, and what does that support actually give?

Why on earth do Israel react in a such a way, they must have a reason but it's insane! They are encouraging more bad feeling and making the whole process harder. If they didn't react, The groups would be looked upon as the terrorist killers they are.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

a)Yes
b)Divide the country into equal amounts of land. Gaza and West Bank should not be separated. The Jews must stay now, but they must give up some land. The Palestinians will have separate access to all amineties. The US must stop bankrolling/interfering in Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iraq and the Gulf States. Then we will have peace in the middle east.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Given that there is a significant faction in the middle east that will not tolerate any kind of Israeli state in the region, I think your belief that such a scenario would lead to peace is at best a little rose tinted. :erm:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I think the cartoon Ramrod found just sums up the whole situation..niether side is doing themselves any favours and they are apparently not seeking a situation that either of them can actually win.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Good answers - thank you for that.

btw, I think you may find that it is the other way round with the Saudis and the US..... ;)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The sad irony of this tragic situation is that anybody with an ounce of sense knows that the outcome has to be a viable Palestinian state, living in peace next to a secure and safe Israel.
I'm sure the vast majority on both sides realise and except this is the only way forward, but as always its the crazies on both sides on the extremes who put a stop to any meaningful progress.
On the Palestinian side idiots, encouraged by dinnerjacket, who will not except Israel's right to exist, and believe foolhardily that they are going to win with violence.
And on the Israeli side extremely religious settlers who believe that the land was given to them by god, and that the state of Israel has given too much already.
Looking in from the outside you have to wonder what it'll take and how much more suffering both of these diametrically opposed sides are willing, to not only put themselves through, but their children and grand-children before they realise like the majority in the region, that the only way forward is compromise.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Do you have a better idea?:rolleyes:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Ok lets turn the question around.What is YOUR solution?Make it a viable one mind?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I agree with your proposed solution. I just don't agree with your assessment of the likely outcome.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I reckon the Channel 4 news presenter summed it up quite succinctly tonight.

Timing is the issue here, Israel have chosen to (over) react now with a change of US presidency imminent.

They hoped for ( and have got) unequivocal support from the US.

How will Barack Obama be under such circumstances?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I have already posted it:rolleyes:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well you see, Ahmadinnerjacket said that Israel was created to compensate for the Shoah, so of course, to some people that must be a fact, you see, as they are unaware of the details of the League of Nations' British Mandate of Palestine, or would rather not admit that it was given prior to WW2.
Basically it's appauling historical knowledge mixed in with a conspiraphile mind.
Personally, I blame the schools for not teaching about it ;)

You mean like Gaza? Oh wait, they did that, and their civilians were deliberately targetted by Gazan missiles. Next suggestion?

Good, why should the Israelis have to pay for their enemy's electricity gas and water. Oh wait, didn't you know it was provided freely by Israel?

That'll be the US that gives millions to the Palestinians. Did you not know that either?


Also, what do you propose happens to Jordan and those who consider themselves Jordanian? Should they beforced to become Palestinians?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The stupidest thing is, if there is one country that should be able to identify with the Palestinians and their lack of a home, it's Israel. It just makes you think that if it were not for the outside forces with no desire for a peace in the region then they might have a chance.

Seems unlikely with the people who just want to destroy Israel, both the terrorist groups and the countries who supply them and manipulate the Palestinian people as their proxy.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The majority of peace plans have been developed by the Israelis.
If you ever go to the museum by the Sea of Galilee there's plenty of displays on them, mostly Israel comes off worse (nothing new there, after all the UN wanted to give them the malaria ridden areas), but at the time they were put forward, the Arab nations wanted all the land (and from Jodan's and Egypt's examples, not for the Palestinians!).
Then there would be periods where the lack of action would boil over (as is currently happening), a hawkish leader would be elected and Israel would fight back for a change, people would die on both sides, and peace would be given a try although normally not lasting long (they do like firing those home made rockets at jewish homes) and the cycle repeats. When you're getting paid by foreign aid, living in $million dollar villas, filtering millions into Swiss bank accounts, and your people don't expect you to actually help them because you've convinced them it's someone else's fault, life must be good (reminds me of the Lib Dems!).
There have been several advances though, giving Sinai for peace has been pretty effective.
Returning Golan isn't likely to happen any time soon unless there's a major change in Syria, otherwise they'll just go back to taking pot shots at Israeli civilians on their way to work.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Xaccers on thing you really need to start doing is stop thinking that people who offer a different view point to yours are ignorant of the situation. Granted you have a very good history of the region, but like I've said before, its not the things that happened 50 years ago that have caused people to be outraged at the Isreali oppression of Palestinians but rather whats been happening in the last 10 or so years.

Israel has flattened more homes in the last 10 years then Jordanians or Eygyptians have, they have slaughtered more children then Jordanians and Eygptians have, they have tortured more palestinians than the Jordanians or Egyptians have.

Additionally its all very well talking of Palestinian friends who experienced the Jordanian refugee camps, but I talk to plenty of Palestinians who have family in the area now. And to be honest they'd rather be in a Jordanian refugee camp then in their current situation.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Israel pulled out of Gaza less than 10 years ago, you may have noticed that, and they were asked to bulldoze their settlements so that the PA wouldn't have to deal with it. What did they get for it? More attacks against their civilian populations. There are plenty of IDF bases around Gaza, but instead of targetting them (because it would guarentee a retaliation PDQ) Gazans target towns and villages.
As for buldozing houses in the territories, again, if you knew the reasons why, then you may not be trying to make the same false point (after all, whereas Jordan and Egypt kept them in squalid camps for 20 years, Israel has provided housing, medical care, gas, water and electricity).
It was an IDF soldier I know who, along with his colleagues were shocked to find just how badly the refugees were being treated by their "fellow" palestinians from Jordan.

As for civilian deaths, during the 2nd intifada, here's a list of 418 Israeli civilians who were murdered http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...econd_Intifada
That's properly murdered, not because they were attacking palestinians, not because they were close to IDF forces, or the Israeli police, but while going about their normal day to day business.
You don't have to believe the Israeli's defence minister's statement that they are sorry for the civilian deaths in Gaza caused by Hamas firing rockets from civilian areas, you don't have to believe that Israel spends millions a year improving smart weapons to reduce so called collatoral damage because they're having to attack targets in civilian areas, you don't even have to believe that it's Hamas' fault for placing it's people in harms way by launching attacks from residential areas, but to suggest that the Israelis are deliberately trying to attack civilians and compare them with the attrocities that the palestinians have committed, and to go as far as trying to justify those attrocities, you might as well say the 7/7 bombers were justified.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Nice post

Think you might find it's more likely that they wanted to use the land to build 'a lot' of homes rather than use all that land for relatively few homes, what with Gaza being one of the most densely populated areas on the planet

Mmm not such a good post. Why on earth would you want to live in Hamas run Gaza, where there's no food or medicine, no fuel and no electricity although soon they might not have a choice, considering 60% of them fear mass expulsion. No far better for them to live as second class citizens in Israel for as long as they can

I've answered this post here, as requested

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You are just a Zionist Propagandist

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Good comeback :dozey: Loads of people have made great points you seem to be ignoring. Besides, why is the world always so black and white to you? you never seem to appreciate the complexities of issues like this

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Twas a standard chaos23 comeback. He demands everyone accept his point until the weight of reasoned argument against him gets too much, then he resorts to one-line insults. Consider it game over. ;)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You would like to think that the game is over.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Frankly, I couldn't care less whether you change your mind or not.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It should be kept under Israeli occupation for ever, the Golan heights wine is too good to be wasted on tee-total Syrians. :rolleyes:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Are you aiming that at me. I suggest you retract that statement because I find it totally offensive for you to insinuate that someone who supports palestinians, and their cause, somehow supports the 7/7 bombings.


This is the kind of sentiment that brands muslims as terrorist sympathisers and I would have expected better from you.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Would you expect anything else from a Zionist?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

chaos, could you please explain what you mean by a "Zionist"?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Someone who doesn't agree with him?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Can we please avoid taking this topic into the realms of those who believe in a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy please, I Know I sometimes am to blame for this kind of thing but I really think that it's time we stop indulging those who wish to do so.

You have made some great posts in this topic, it makes me feel uneasy at an attempt to question you because you obviously have personal experence and a good knowledge of some of the worst of Israel's actions and the innocent victims of their over-the-top punishment.

I did want to point out the problem from the Israeli side though. If you keep getting rockets fired at your people, which will also kill innocent people, and this happens often and without provocation (other than the perceived historical injustice) then cannot you not understand why Israel feels compelled to wipe out these groups once and for all. Not that it's an excuse, but it's not as if Israel is just doing this to be evil or is not provoked.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I think much of this in terms of timing and manner of attacks has a lot more to do with politics then it does with the rocket attacks themself. An incoming american president who is an unknown beyond what he stated in his election campaign (and lets be honest who expects those obligations to be adhered to once in the door) and the proximity of elections in Israel are two main things guiding this right now from the israeli side.

Hamas i think have been mind blowingly stupid in choosing this time to start firing rockets they had to know what was going to happen and i think once people have got past the israeli response they are going to start looking at and asking hard questions about anyone that would start this off in the first place and those answers will be more damning then any so called propaganda value they might get right now.

I am not excusing the civilian deaths but as has been said and while it is not nice it is true civilians do die in all conflicts but in this case you have to put the blame firstly at the feet of hamas they chose to fire rockets from civilian areas at civilian targets in Israel that was stupid and they knew damn well when they did it what was coming.

I have said before this wave of optimism that has follwed obama's election is misplaced he may well be a man who wants to right all the wrongs but thats a world apart from actually being able to do it and i think when it comes to the middle east he isn't going to make half the progress a lot think he will i hope i am wrong for the sake of the middle east but i just don't see it happening. He might have a new brush but i think he is going to find some old foreign policy stains that just won't allow themself to be swept away for no one.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Here are some more facts for the Zionists among us:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/12/3.gif


Since September 2000, 123 Israelis have been killed and 1,050 Palestinian Children have been killed.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/12/4.gif

Americans contribute $0.3Miliion to the Palestinians per day and $6.8 Million per day to the Israelis - why the difference?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

And when you are born in conditions where you see barricades and blockades around you, when you spend your early years having your lives controled in where you can work, what you can do, when you grow up knowing you can't really travel out of the place you live in, when you are growing up seeing that a government across the border builds a massive wall around you, then I am sure you can understand why people would be compelled to hate those who are ultimately responsible for your circumstances.

I am not saying firing rockets into Israel is a good thing. The reality is that since Saturday 4 Israelis have been killed, as opposed to 100s of palestinians, the majority who are totally innocent, save for the fact that they elected Hamas to represent them (by the way remember, as soon as they were Elected the western world basically said, Oh We dont like that type of democracy, and closed their eyes to the barricades that Israel put up around Gaza). It seems that Israel feels that 1 Jewish life is equal to 100 Palestinian ones.

The Israeli response has been totally over the top and unjustified. It will also not solve anything apart from killing 100s of innocent people, it will not bring peace into the region. That as well as their determination not to let in aid in sufficient quanities, is only going to contribute to the loss of more life. The timing of this campaign and the closeness of the elections adds another unpleasant dimension to the whole thing.

The objective of this assault was to take out Hamas, personnel and infrastructure. Well they have virtually destroyed all Hamas infrastructure in Gaza, and yet they still continue to bomb. The common consensus now, amongst a lot of people that I speak to, is that Israel will not be happy that Hamas is totally wiped up until they kill every single man woman and child in Gaza. The fact that the Western governments call for restraint and yet do nothing about it adds to the feelings that nobody gives a damn about the palestinians.

That feeling of bitterness will sow a lot of seeds for much trouble to come in future years.


Its all very well bringing in the Jordanians and Egyptians, but put those points to any Palestinian today and try telling them that they were worse of under the Egyptians and Jordanians than they are under Israel and see what response you get.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

What is this bolleaux about "the Zionists amongst us" - I am lapsed Catholic.

As usual, chaos, you ignored my previous question - what do you mean by Zionist?

btw, the Israelis have spent hundreds of millions of dollars in early warning radar systems and building roadside and school bomb shelters because of all the incoming rockets, to minimise the casualties to Israeli civilians.

Nice to see you have learned to hide where you are getting your info from - what's up with naming sources? (it's ok, your sources are simple to find - ifamericansknew.org). And strange how you picked the year for funding (2007), which is the year after Israel, the United States, Canada, and the European Union froze all funds to the Palestinian government after the formation of a Hamas-controlled government. If you had chosen any other year, you would have found that United States economic assistance for the Palestinians has averaged about $85 million per year since Israel and the PLO signed the 1993 Declaration of Principles LINK - but, then, that may not have supported the premise you were trying to forward, would it? :rolleyes:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I do not mean to defend Israel although it is obviously the tone of my posts in most cases, but everything they do, they do in response to a danger posed to them. If Wales and Scotland decided to start firing missiles into our cities how long do you think it would be before the public demanded the sort of reaction we see Israel dish out?

Well if they elect a group which provokes Israel into these attacks then we have a clear idea of the path they have chosen, we cannot help a people who refuse to take any measures themselves towards peace! I do not want to see people harmed in the way they are, and what is happening is a massive injustice and I do feel angry about it. However, I feel angry at all of them.

I am angry that Israel overacts when we should expect better from them, I am angry that other countries manipulate the Palestinian people for their own goals, and I am angry that groups like Hamas provoke the Israeli reaction for PR Gain.

Yes, I agree. I also like the point out that my points about the provocation of the attacks is still not justification for them. Israel should be ashamed and if the people of Israel had any sense they would reject their governments brutality.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

When you go through life under the conditions they go through, and there is a party promising a change and coming across as the only person in 'authority' that cares for you, well it becomes easy to vote for them doesnt it.

The way I look at it, Hamas don't do themsleves any favours sending missiles into Israel, and that has to stop if there is to be any progress in the region. Isreals reaction though, as we both agree, is totally over the top. Their response to anything that is a danger to them is and has always been totally over the top and with total disregard to innocent life and future peace.

By the way I remember growing up in London when the IRA were operating. Granted there weren't any suicide bombings, (not that I remember anyway) but there was the fear of getting on the tube, or going into Oxford Street. Remeber when someone got killed in Canary Wharf? We didnt bomb the hell out of them did we? I wonder why?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Things might have been different though, if the IRA had been elected as the government of Eire and had started firing missiles from there into Northern Ireland.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Good Post Damien.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Yes, Don't get me wrong Israel's reaction is completely overblown. The problem is that we need to find a way for both sides to work towards a peace and it is not helped by the Palestinians. There is a very easy way to stop the Israeli attacks, stop attacking Israel.

The IRA comparison is a good one, both as a lesson for Israel to help them deal with terrorist groups and as a lesson to the Palestinians that the only time these issues get better is after people have become tired of terrorists groups and reject them. The IRA truly died because the people of Ireland had enough and both sides came to a compromise.

Hamas/Hizbollah will not destroy Israel, they only bring more death and pain to the people they claim to protect. They may not think this, because in a lot of cases these groups are actually providing medical care and education. However, the only reason that there was a absence of these things was because of the groups themselves. Equally, The only way Israel is going to be able to live in peace is if they understand the Palestinians are people, a people they actually should be able to relate to, and they deserve a home as well.

As long as terrorism remains the course of action though, nothing will ever progress. :( Basically, Although Israel are in the wrong here, It is up to the Palestinians to step up and say "We have had enough, we want peace". Then both sides need to give a bit of what they want up.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Yes, $85million when they are giving billions to Israel

LOL you do try dont you, aid in 2006 to Israel $2.5Billion aid to Palestinians $153million. Now, why does Israel get so much more? They also give $1.7billion to the puppet regime in Egypt


BTW the "source" is the US State Dept.;)

You got nothing to say about the huge difference in child casualties?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Let us not forget that the Israelis were killing children in palestine long before Hamar were elected in 'power'. Many fathers have had their sons shot down by bullets for throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. Homes were being destroyed by israeli tanks long before hamas won the election.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Israel vows lasting Gaza campaign

In this BBC article Richard Falk is quoted as referring to the Gaza population as defenceless. I'm sure that most of the Gaza population are, however it appears that there are some of them who are involved with launching missiles at the Israeli civilian population.

I feel that Israel is making efforts to minimise collateral damage within the context of launching high explosive ordnance into densely populated civilian settlements at militia facilites. The people involved with the offensive actions against Israel are mixing with the non-combative palastinians who are trying desparately to live thier daily lives. This makes it inevitable that there will be death and suffering for the Gazan familys.

I realise that there is a highly complex and established causality loop of violence that is highly integrated, differentiated and culturalised within both the Palastinian and Israeli camps. Israel should defend itself as should the Palastinians.

I have sympathy for both the Gazans and Israelis. I'm stuck as to what to think due to the dissonance within my perspective. My current train of thought is that either Israel should become uninhibited with its military or the Hamas should surrender thier military approach.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Very very good point.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

These are wonderful sentiments, I would say they are too generalised and focusing on the palestinian half. In response to them I would like to say the other half. How can one have peace so long as Israel is one of the most militarised nations on earth? Where after a glittering military career you can move next door and become a politician, and probably Prime Minister. Why would a military want peace? If there were a complete and proper peace you'd have to dismantle much of the Israeli state. Rather overwhelming advantage militarily, keeping the palestinians poor is quite a good scenario for the military, as you can go through cycles of talks, fighting, talks, fighting, ceasefire, fighting, ceasefire, fighting which is more or less what has happened since Oslo.

Hamas as an organisation is also probably fairly satisfied with how things have worked out for precisely the opposite reasons in most cases. Even if Hamas wanted peace, the israeli military would be critical of it, as the current scenario for militants on both sides is the next best thing after peace.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

So i will ask again if not what they are doing what SHOULD the israeli's be doing ?? surely no one is saying they should continue to allow rockets to be fired at them and not respond or is that what people are saying ??. I don't like conflicts anymore then the rest of you and i understand the palestinian people have suffered greatly. With that in mind why would they allow the "party that cares about them" to fire rockets from their neighbourhood knowing retalation has to come i simply don't get it. We all mourn the loss of life and none of us want to see it dragged out longer then it needs to be but what else given the military advantage Israel has were it's options.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Diplomacy. Neither side in power is interested in peace at the moment, even though a lot of people below them on both sides maybe literally dying for it. I doubt peace ever can be achieved as it involves literally constructing two states devoid of the extensive military or militia influences, on both sides.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

link and link

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

An interesting essay here:
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.as...=2&article=507

'Warehousing' - a fascinating concept..

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Sounds better than gulag I suppose.:erm:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

LOL.. all part of the game I suppose. The trick of using emotionally-loaded terms to provoke a conditioned response is an old political weapon.

I'm saddened by the idea that the only real way to settle this matter is an all-out war. Until one side is thoroughly beaten into submission the endless tit-for-tat will continue.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Still waiting for chaos to explain what he means by "Zionist"..........

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Immediately cease the air offensive. The only way to defeat this kind of conflict is with ground troops. Urban warfare. Armoured vehicles, checkpoints, searches, take the fight to the insurgent. Less civilian casualties.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Maybe xaacers will turn up and explain. I'm still waiting for him to retract his insinuation that those who identify and sympathise with the Palestinians somehow support bombers in the UK.

The think about this topic is that it really very easy to get caught up in it emotionally and heated. Especially when you cant get across your point as you would like to - can get extremely frustrating, esecially if your emotions are already running high from what you see on TV. I don't know how long Chaos has been around, but I'm sure when he's had some time to reflect he wont be labelling you a zionist for much longer.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I agree with you, Saaf - I am sure that anyone who sympathises with those Palestinians not involved in rocket attacks on Israelis (and I include myself in that group) would not like to be labelled a terrorist sympathiser, but just to clarify things, I don't mind being called a Zionist, as I do believe in a Homeland for the Jewish people (but I don't think that's what certain posters meant by it myself (link) - guess I'll never know, as no clarification has been forthcoming ;) ).

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Shocking how the Israelis continue their propaganda of being under constant rocket fire for x years. What about the land grabbing, bombing, blockades, controlling sea/air/land for over 60 years ? Do you really think the Palestinians will take it all lying down ? Ask anyone, if someone invades your land and subjugates you, you will fight back any way you can ! England never surrendered to Germany during WWII! Also, The American Israel Public Affairs Committee represents about 1.6% of the US population and has more influence than 99% of lobby groups in the US. Why? US blind alegence to Israel has caused nothing but trouble for the US and the World from the day they killed British troops just after WW II to steel it. Open your Eyes and see whats happening....

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Alot of people tend to overlook that and blame everything on those pesky palestinians. Some even blame the Jordanians and Egyptians on the current plight in Gaza. I expect you will be getting a history lesson about the region very soon, in an attempt to make you believe that the Palestinians have never had it so good.

---------- Post added at 01:33 ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 ----------

I do not think firing rockets into Israel is right, and it certainly wont achieve anything but more bloodshed of innocent lives in the area, mainly on the Palestinian side. However I can understand why they do it. I can feel sorry for those that fire rockets, I can feel sorry for and understand why a palestinian suicide bomber would walk into a cafe and blow himself or herself up.

I don't want them to do it, I do not think it's right that they do it and I dont want others to follow them into that path, but I can understand why they would do it.

Does that train of thought make me sympathetic to terrorist bombings in the UK? Does it imply that I am happy with that happening. I still can't get over the fact that someone who is supposedly intelligent and well versed can come up with that conclusion about anyone who feels the same way.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Ground troops will be going in soon and you know as well as i do SMG they were never going to send ground troops straight in they will follow the usual procedure of destroying C&C installations, comms centres of any type and hamas infrastructure before sending in the troops that is what this is as far as i am concerned phase 1. There are sadly going to be many more deaths before this current phase of stupidity is done with and plenty of news to watch it all on.

Personally i am tired of seeing this and won't be watching it on the news or in any form of the media i have seen this sort of thing first hand and have no desire to watch it happening. There is no solution to this right now because as has been said neither side want a solution at this time so it will contnue to go round in the stupid cycle that it does.

Bash the israeli's if you wish bash hamas end of the day makes no difference and sure as hell isn't going to stop a damn thing so pointless both sides have blame in this as they always have and always will until that fine day comes when there is a solution on the table all sides can live with i won't hold my breath though.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You know we had the IRA planting bombs and they killed a lot more people in one hit than any Hamas rocket has ever done, did we bomb areas of the Republic where we thought/knew they were hiding?

---------- Post added at 06:35 ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 ----------

Your right, the one thing this will not make is their citizens safer, some are already dead as a result in the break down of cease fire, I doubt they'll be the last sadly.

---------- Post added at 06:44 ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 ----------

Another good point, wasn't it Chris Hedges of the NY Times who reported that Israeli soldiers routinely murder Palestinian children for sport

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

There will never be a solution to this problem until the collective countries across the globe actually find the political will to do so.At the moment there doesn't seem to be any urgent reason for them not to just leave things as they are especially as their own problems at home are so much more important.
Most of the middle east is reasonably peaceful and and it doesn't look like anyone else is going to join in so oil resources will be uninterrupted in the region.Why bother except to tut,tut and apparently hand wring in public about the death toll?

Besides which I don't think they know how to bring it to an end without direct military intervention..

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I will withdraw the comment about Xaccers being a Zionist.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well done.Try to keep that attitude going. :tu: