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Roy Castle? I have not seen his death certificate but he apparently never smoked in his life but was exposed to second hand smoke. But to the original question, forget the issues of " so should eating an apple while driving " "tuning in a station while driving " " arguing with a passenger " smoking in cars carrying anyone should be banned let alone kids. ---------- Post added at 14:32 ---------- Previous post was at 14:25 ---------- Quote:
At the end of the day its about resources, what would people rather have? Would they rather have bobbies in then local area on a friday night when the yobs are rampaging or have them sat in a car in the hope of seeing someone using the phone behind the wheel? And what is this reliance on the mobile phone so much that if people leave home without it they do a u-turn. We managed before without them. The solution to the problem could be down to car and mobile phone manufacturers? making it vertually impossible to get a signal inside a car. Would that be possible? |
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If the authorities can implement it effectively, we could see some benefits. It can have a ripple effect... Parents would be more cautious of smoking whenever and wherever they are with kids. ^^
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Even if some people had a Diseased lung placed on a slab in front of them they would blame something else, with the attitude " It is not my pleasure that is causing a lung to look like that " Such is the strength of the addiction. The dreaded weed really can have people by the proverbials. Which brings me to my belief that they should ban them completely, if it means a tax rise so be it, with the state the country is in at the moment it would make little difference, we are all in debt through good ol' Allister anyway! |
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Just like we are paying the NHS to treat alchol related illnesses, revenue from smokers £3billion a year, cost to treat smonking related illnesses £200million a year. Revenue from the sales of alcohol £6billion a year, cost to treat alcohol related illnesses £15billion a year. Which one uses up the most money, it's not smoking is it? |
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I can choose not to smoke, and some ignorant t#¤% can still light up next to me... |
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Revenue from smoking is a lot more then 3 billion a year :).
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The key point hasn't changed: you cannot be subjected to passive drinking. You can be subjected to passive smoking. That is why recent anti-smoking legislation of this kind is has been introduced on health & safety grounds, and that is why it is entirely reasonable to do so. |
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As a smoker myself still(gave up the drink a long time ago but not yet the smoking) i hate people smoking when i`m in a car with them and i wont have the kids in any car with somebody smoking.I dont usually smoke in our own cars,even if the kids are not onboard and i have murders with the missus about it,her being a smoker too. I just hate other peoples smoke and if that`s how i feel as a smoker then i can certainly empathise with all the non-smokers & kids who have to suffer it. I was one of the happy smokers when smoking was banned in the work place.I used to especially hate going into Restaurants & Cafes and having to suffer people smoking as i was eating,often not being able to contain my myself and just having to say something:angel: I do plan on being a non-smoker by time i`m forty though,so the good news is it`s not too long to go......:erm: |
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But that is the job of the government, to ensure we are safeguarded. Pre the smoking ban when I went to a pub I would come home with my clothes stinking of stale smoke. If I was to urinate on somebodys coat they would not like it would they? I still think it a shame they dont go the full distance and ban it all together. |
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Yeah ban it altogether and then we can see what other lifestyle choice they will be going after because it is blind stupidity to think if they ban smoking they will stop there. I gave up the ciggies but went back on them and while i understand that everyone has the right to a smoke free place it wouldn't have been hard to reach a voluntary agreement that meant each group could have something.
Banning anything is not the answer oh yes it sounds good and even might look good short term but in the end it always backfires and causes more trouble then it's worth. If we want a smoke free nation anytime soon then education is the way to do it and not the preachy sort we have now. I do find it funny that some people on here talk about people getting along and making concesions when it comes to other nations in conflict and then when it comes to issues like this want draconian measures to ensure their own viewpoint wins out in this country quite interesting. As to the point of it being the job of the government to interfere in lifestyle choices no it isn't and whenever they do it never works out well. I would prefer my government to look after the state side of things and get that right rather then have them tell me what i can or cannot eat, drink or smoke as that is a personal choice and while they are making vcast sums of money from those activities i find it highly hypocritical of them to criticise people for doing it. If they really want to totally ban smoking then stop taking money from it before you do and then maybe i will believe them not going to happen anytime soon though. |
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Fear of losing customers is a very strong motivation for any business. Publicans may have acknowledged a demand for smoke-free environs, but concluded that the risks associated with going down that route were too high, especially when the status quo was demonstrably profitable already. On the other hand, banning it in law has ensured a level playing field has continued. |
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partly not completely on topic but
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAn...code/DG_070309 look at 148 this has the effect of putting the smoker in the position they may have to prove that smoking didn't cause an accident or impaired or affected their driving say you couldnt last till after you had finished driving to have one may well negatively affect a defence as to banning it completely in front of children i would say they should as a life long asthmatic i say to the smokers your coulpe of minutes can effect us for the rest of the day if not longer some times just because it was just 2 minute to you doesnt preclude the next persons 2 minutes adding to my discomfort many times during a day and i am not someone trying to stop smoking completely hey i am for legalising all drugs just as long as they dont use them in public or where there are kids imho if people want to risk thier lve they should be free to do so just like mountain climbers etc but none should force others to risk thier lives for them to do as they wish |
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The "side effect" does not have to be direct - you can be exposed to the effects of someone else drinking. Being put at risk by a drunk driver is equivalent to being put at risk from passive smoking (in my opinion). |
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There are some guys who smoke on the open-air platform at my local rail station in the morning. Strictly speaking this is illegal, but they make sure they smoke "downwind" of other passengers. For a mother to drive while smoking with children in the car, while legal, is completely wrong. |
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smoking cost the NHS about £2.7 billion last year
see http://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=189736 but even though ASH did those calculations they still don't show the true figure as they don't include the many who end up being treated because of someone else's smoke affecting their asthma or other lung related ailments i have been to hospital twice out of the 4 times last year because of an attack that started with someone else smoking near me and i have lost count of the extra medication i have had to take because of others peoples smoke ( thankfully a bit less now its getting banned from many places ) asthma cost the NHS £9 billion last year if even say 10% of that was added it would start to up that smoking cost see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ug-Xolair.html then start adding those with ARDS Bronchiectasis Bronchopulmonary Dysplasia Bronchoscopy Cystic Fibrosis Chronic Bronchitis (COPD) Chronic Pulmonary Obstructive Disease (COPD) Emphysema (COPD) Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis Lung Function Tests Lung Ventilation Perfusion Scan (VQ scan) Lymphangioleiomyomatosis (LAM) Pleurisy and Other Pleural Disorders Pleural Effusion Pneumonia Pneumothorax Pulmonary Arterial Hypertension Respiratory Distress Syndrome (RDS) Sarcoidosis then you can go on to heart attacks which although those who smoke are allready included they dont ingeneral include passive smoking ones in here and a number of place have now reported massive drops in heart attacks in areas where smoking has been banned in one orm or another see here for one example http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...869585,00.html so any finacial argument over the roughly £10 billion revenue from cigarettes is really a non starter as to alcohol it cost the nhs about £2.7 billion to £25.1 billion see http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_170745 against £453.4 billion revenue from alcohol see http://www.politics.co.uk/news/economy/taxation/alcohol-duties/alcohol-duties-$366621.htm so i dont see how these can be compared |
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What about car fumes that also have a large impact on asthma in fact once we start going down that road of banning everything that can harm others what exactly will be left. Next we will see the emphasis move onto alcohol that costs far more and does more damage in many other ways. Then it will be fast food as that must cost the nhs a pretty penny. Thats how stupid this is going to get if we are not careful so for those of you shouting for a total ban on smoking think about what you enjoy doing and after you have got your ban on smoking count the days till they ban something that matters to you.
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the studies do show where there are heavy concentration normally meaning very built up areas with very heave traffic and mostly where there are lots of diesel vehicles it does seem to impact asthma
myself i have never had a problem with a car passing me in the street or even when stuck in traffic now if you want to talk bon fires ;) now they do have an effect on me often lol ( though mostly because i get too close lol ) and as i said i am not about banning it every where just where there are other people ;) i was pointing out that it doesnt support itself finacialy to those who seem to think it does and showing trying to say alcohol is jusy as bad finacialy is wrong as to alcohol the laws that are here should be better enforced ( did you know its against the law to serve some one whos drunk http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs...nkingandthelaw personaly i think they should make it so unless the publican can see those he is pouring drinks for he shouldnt serve the drinks ( that would meen in a busy pub you would have to go to the bar to pick up your drink ) that would cut a load of the fri /sat night nhs cost in a stroke back to smoking in a car i find it indefensible to do so either your addiction is truely so bad you shouldnt be driving any way if you cant last till the end of a journy or it must be affect the way you drive which is breaking the law as it stands even with other adults i think its bad enough but at least they can say no or ask to be let out ( which is what i would do ) |
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"either your addiction is truely so bad you shouldnt be driving any way if you cant last till the end of a journy or it must be affect the way you drive which is breaking the law as it stands"
You`re talking crap mate, why shouldn`t a smoker have a smoke in the car if he`s on his own and how does it make his driving impaired.?:erm: |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
Easy. If you want a fag let the kids walk home..
That way they're getting valuable cardiovascular exercise as well. Everybody wins. |
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the thread is about smoking with someone in car !
and it does affect driving not in the same way as alcohol but it still does cause problems when i was an driving instructor i had many pupils who's driving became more and more erratic if they couldnt get their fix after an hour a few who needed breaks ever 30 min |
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Erm, your figures are out. That 453.4 billion was HMRC's total revenue. Alcohol accounts for about £8.3 (or so) billion of that. Quote:
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hmm i did miss read that bit
will get back the info i had earlier lol as that doesnt add up to the 5% of total goverment revenue from alcohol i had earlier either which should be higher than 8.3 hmm |
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Do you call making places we are all entitled to visit, this includes pubs you know, pubs are not just for smokers as you seem to be implying with your assertion that nobody makes you go to a pub. With regard Urine, I was making the link between ammonia in cigarettes and ammonia that is naturally secreted form the body, both do not smell nice do they? Would I be happy to pay more taxes if smoking was totally banned? The way our country is at the moment we are all including our children going to be paying back a huge debt anyway, what difference would say 5p in the pound make? The original question was should smoking in cars carrying children be banned and I still say yes. ---------- Post added at 19:17 ---------- Previous post was at 19:12 ---------- Quote:
If the driver has pulled over to a safe place then why not? If on the other hand theyre smoking as they're driving they may aswell be using a mobile phone. |
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ok 2 amendments the cost to nhs is only the lower figure of £2.7 the higher one includes loses to industry and a lot of other stuff so not faire to compare as they are not included in the stats for smoking
the figure for alcohol tax including the vat is some where near £10 billion but as i am adding up from several sites the moment i cant give a citation at the moment lol ( there must be a stats site out there with this on one page sigh ) so not as big as gap as i first saw but alcohol still out pays it way to thr nhs as to the other bits even if you just take 10% of those other ilness cost and add them to smoking costs it soon piles up ( lol i only got into the figures as a side point ;) ) main point smoking damages not only the smoker i have no problem with people doing anything they like whether harmfull or dangerous as long as they keep it to themselves |
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Factor in costs from Alcohol addiction programs, treaments for liver and heart disease, and the costs for security/policing and repairs to A&E when people get ****ed up and start a fight in A&E every Friday and Saturday night (and other nights where there are special occassions). And, yes, it does happen frequently (I have several friends who have worked in A&E and had to work these shifts). Also, factor in increased costs for policing outside hospitals on these occassions. I realise it's a minority of drinkers that cause problems but they *do* cause problems. Finally, factor in the cost to industry of millions of people doing sickies because they are hung over. I suspect you'll find the final cost of Alcohol is a lot higher than £8.3 billion a year. |
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yep you can do that thats where the £25 billion figure came from but then you have to do the same for cigaretts which would bump that up massively to
and if you do it will still end up with smoking causing more problems financially than drinking does not that i against things that bring ex stream drinking down either but in moderation it can be beneficial smoking though except for some slight medicinal uses for specific conditions only does harm |
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Smoking should be banned while driving full stop.
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Fear of losing customers is a very strong motivation for any business, but the status quo in recent years has not been very profitable. You must have seen the news reports about the number of pubs closing down? Not solely due to the smoking ban, obviously, but it has played its part in the decline of the pub trade. And the law hasn't ensured a level playing field for publicans (v cheap booze from supermarkets) and smokers. Quote:
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Yes, because as a kid I hated it when the parents had to open the window on a cold journey home thus waking me up!!!! They now don't smoke, but still do it! :D
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" Most parents " ? All children are at risk of damage to their health from second hand smoke, lung cancer does not discriminate class wise. A quick question,with respect, do you smoke? |
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I don't. Never have. Tried it once and didn't like it. I do, however, believe in freedom of choice, a concept which seems alien to some people. |
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I meant "some parents" in general terms because some parents, it is patently obvious, do not look after their children's welfare. They frequently figure in newspaper headlines. As far passive smoking goes, I'm asking for proof that it is a cause of lung cancer. Wouldn't we see many more cases of lung cancer amongst bar staff and spouses of smokers if so? Quote:
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Reality is this whole anti-smoking thing at the minute is an attack on a freedom that some citizens choose to have and while i agree smelling of cigarettes is not a nice thing and some people really do hate it (i am a smoker by the way) until the ban i never heard or saw it putting people off going out for a night in the pub or anywhere else.
As for the whole "there was a demand for smoke free pubs before the ban" er no there wasn't maybe in the big cities but not much elsewhere as we had one that tried it in our town he went out of business after six months despite running 5 other successful pubs so you can't use the old excuse of him not knowing what he was doing. As for smoking in cars of course people shouldn't smoke in cars when kids are in them but i really don't think it is an area the government should be interfering in and if we allow them to interfere on that level we are just asking for trouble in a whole host of other areas. Apart from anything else this government doesn't have the best track record so even if i were to agree to the principle of them interfering at this level i would want a government with a little more credibility doing it. |
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I dont smoke but this is getting incredibly stupid.
1 - over legislation of what people do in their own space and time. 2 - the country getting extremely over protective of children. This country must be the most protective of children in the world. Bear in mind smoking is already banned in taxis so this wouldnt be for that situation. |
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there were loads of us asking for smoke free areas but we were never realy catered for because most just set aside a room with no provision to stop the smoke from the rest of the pub getting in there |
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Well Roger i don't really know about pubs because i don't drink and very very rarely go in one. So i have my drug of choice and you have yours :). But lets be honest here if the demand for non smoking pubs was that high business would have come into and opened them making a lot of cash that didn't happen because......
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mines mostly cola or oj when i go out as i drive ;)
neither of which affects others as far as i am aware i keep the wine for my own home mostly when the kids are in bed :angel: me ;) my main point was though there was a demand for smoke free but no one was willing to provide it with out being compelled to do so because they were scared of anything new as with most things in this country they wont change unless they are made to look at the debacle of metrication |
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So what your saying is there was a big demand for it money to be made and no one did it :( there were smoke free pubs before the ban and with a few exceptions they didn't have the volume of trade that the normal pubs did and there was even a report on the bbc just prior to the ban coming in where there had been 3 non smoking pubs in an area of london and two had shut because they didn't do enough trade.
Fact is there was a better solution for both sides then a total ban taking away the freedom of choice from people and when it happens elsewhere in the world we british normally get on our high horse about restrictive governments and as i said pretty soon once they have finished with smoking they will move onto something else. All of this is OT though and we should maybe get back on topic. |
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they didnt have us in their pubs to ask as we couldn't go in there :)
as to back on topic i agree no kids should ever have to put up with second hand smoke that should be the over riding freedom here it doesn't bother me i have to wait till i am home and not planning on going out again to have a drink ( and i do like a red wine ;) ) and if it ever got to the point i couldn't wait for the next glass i would consider that i had a real problem that might need dealing with :( no one is stopping any one smoking just where they can |
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I'd never heard of this guy, writing in the Independent before, but I think he's talking a lot of sense. I don't want a coffee shop to replace the pub. Sorry if this is going off topic, but sometimes it's a natural extension of a discussion when people say provocative stuff. :) |
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Topic?I think it's about smoking in cars where children maybe present not public houses.
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A far better idea would be to start charging a fee for treatment of smoke-related health problems. |
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[quote=Frank;34717085 A far better idea would be to start charging a fee for treatment of smoke-related health problems.[/quote]
The tax that smokers pay should be enough to cover any smoking related illness and some more. |
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But seeing as you replied, lets see, freedom of choice? Where is the freedom of choice for the children in the car? Maybe they can walk that mile to school with all the risks associated with sex offenders etc? Freedom of choice has to benefit all parties. ---------- Post added at 10:11 ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 ---------- Quote:
What people do in their own space and time? Nobody should interfere? I will remember that next time I crank the volume up on my rig. I do not see anything wrong with protecting children from second hand smoke. And lastly about taxi's, there lies the solution, put your kids in a taxi. People shout about freedom of choice, but freedom of choice is not a one way street I am affraid. ---------- Post added at 10:14 ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 ---------- Quote:
Very well said. Whenever I came home on leave I would go back to base with all the side effects of second hand smoke, as both my folks smoked. So in my opinion second hand smoke cannot be very good for your health can it? ---------- Post added at 10:17 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ---------- Quote:
You as good as said there was no demand for smoke free pubs. A bit like an atheist saying there is no demand for religion? ;) ---------- Post added at 10:23 ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 ---------- Quote:
I see, so never mind if you bury your kids the funeral will be paid for by the state so long as you pass the means test ;) ---------- Post added at 10:32 ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 ---------- Quote:
And as I posted a good time ago google " Roy castle " and you will find an example. A guy who never smoked in his life worked in clubs died with lung cancer. Yes one isolated death that was reported may be a drop in the ocean, if people prefer more proof unless there is a way of finding out the figures for respiratory deaths in people who have never smoked the debate will roll on. I prefer to use my own judgement having seen my dad gasping for breath when he was struck down with emphysema, he smoked from the age of about 12, until about 12 months before he died but it was too late by then. |
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"meta-analyses have been conducted in which the relative risk estimates from the individual studies are pooled together. These meta-analyses show that there is a statistically significant and consistent association between lung cancer risk in spouses of smokers and exposure to secondhand tobacco smoke from the spouse who smokes. The excess risk is of the order of 20% for women and 30% for men and remains after controlling for some potential sources of bias and confounding. The excess risk increases with increasing exposure. Furthermore, other published meta-analyses of lung cancer in never-smokers exposed to secondhand tobacco smoke at the workplace have found a statistically significant increase in risk of 12–19%. This evidence is sufficient to conclude that involuntary smoking is a cause of lung cancer in never-smokers" I have tried to avoid the usual suspect sites, like ASH, Forest, or any government websites. Link2 (BMJ, re Coronary Heart Disease (CHD)) "ConclusionHigh overall exposure to passive smoking seems to be associated with a greater excess risk of CHD than partner smoking and is widespread in non-smokers, suggesting that the effects of passive smoking may have been underestimated in earlier studies. Further prospective studies of the association between cotinine (or similar biomarkers) and risk of CHD will help to assess the effects of passive smoking on cardiovascular disease with greater precision. In the meantime, our results add to the weight of evidence suggesting that exposure to passive smoking is a public health hazard and should be minimised." Link3 (BMJ re Mortality amongst "never smokers" living with smokers) "Adults who had never smoked and who lived with smokers had about 15% higher mortality than never smokers living in a smoke-free household This study strengthens the case for a causal association between secondhand smoke and mortality" Link4 - Estimate of deaths attributable to passive smoking among UK adults: database analysis (University of Queensland, Department of Health) "CONCLUSION: Exposure at work might contribute up to one fifth of all deaths from passive smoking in the general population aged 20-64 years, and up to half of such deaths among employees of the hospitality industry" |
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Ok as for Roy Castle a lot of people have come out and said they remember him smoking at least in the sixties and my own grandfather told me when he was watching Roy Castle in a club in the sixties he did smoke so i am not so sure about that one. I am not doubting second hand smoke is damaging i am not yet convinced it is as bad as some make out otherwise we would have had so many non smoker's dying of smoking related cancers that it would be beyond doubt and we havn't.
It is a freedom of choice and one we have allowed a government to take away from a lot of people in this country lets not pretend were talking about a small number of selfish people here i smoke but do so considerately as do many of the people i know. Smoking around children is a no no and most responsible smoker's don't do it so what were talking about here is legislation for the idiot selfish minority the sort that need warnings that hot coffe may scold if spilled on you and won't abide by any legislation anyway. It's another attack in the name of health to stop adults doing something they enjoy or wish to do and as i said if this was happening on alcohol half the people on here saying it's ok wouldn't be so happy but don't worry alcohol's time is coming. |
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Non-smokers die from cancer, including lung cancer. Whether this is due to passive smoking is far from proven. There are other factors. ---------- Post added at 18:17 ---------- Previous post was at 18:14 ---------- Quote:
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Re your point about "passive smoking", I thought link 1 and link3 were fairly unequivocal about that? Sir Richard Doll did say what you quoted, but what is almost always missed out when that is stated is the fact "he had just published a study from 12 European countries suggesting the opposite: it was estimated that non-smokers exposed to second-hand smoke are between 20 and 30 per cent more likely to develop lung cancer". Guardian He also said in that interview "Find out what the tobacco industry supports and don't do it, and find out what they object to and do it." , but strangely enough, that doesn't seem to get quoted as much.:D We will probably have to agree to disagree on this topic. (btw, your link doesn't work). |
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I'm always happy to agree to disagree with you. And thanks for pointing out the error. After you've read the link I'd like you know what you think, if you're still interested. Link fixed Here's another excerpt: Quote:
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As for walking to school, apart from the percieved threat of sexual attack (which, let's face it, is not likely to happen to 99% of children, although it does happen), would the walk not do the kids good? Certainly more good than being stuck in a car whether smoke filled or not. |
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What would you class as " People " Stuart? Surely if it is to be believed that " The children are our future " ie the ones who we may need to wipe our backsides if we get older then they are entitled to a " Choice " ? Ofcourse the walk would do the Kids good, so the smoking parents of those Kids can get some air into those lungs instead of Toxins? ---------- Post added at 08:29 ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 ---------- Quote:
Rizzy, can you provide links that show these people saying that Roy castle smoked? apart from your grandfather? Choice as I said before is not a one way street, it has to be a two way thing. So if you want to puff your lungs away good luck to you, but my choice is not to be in the presence of someone doing that, and just the same a child is entitled to the same rights. Comparing warnings over hot coffee with this topic does not work with all respect, a 15 minute run under the cold water tap will ease the burn, 15 minutes of passive smoking will do a bit more damage, and more so if its a regular exposure. |
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freezin, we could bat it around all day about the effects of smoking, but as I put above, cui bono?
Who do I trust less? The Tobacco companies, who stand to gain custom and revenue if the negative health aspects of smoking (active and passive) are nay-sayed or put into doubt, or Government, Public Health Authorities, or researchers? Why would Governments legislate to diminish revenue (taxes from the producer and consumers)? Why would researchers (whose work is peer-reviewed) risk their reputations? Anyhoo, this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic - my personal view is that smoking should not be allowed in cars where children are present; whilst I hope most people would be considerate of their children's health, and any potential risks to it, there are always some who don't give a damn, or are unthinking. |
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Governments know they can make up the revenue from other sources - they are doing it now. And researchers are not risking their reputations, they're going with the flow. Quote:
There are those who wouldn't give a damn if the case were proven, there are also those who see the passive smoking debate as a hoax. |
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Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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Playing music loud enough in that it disrupts neighbours is anti social behaviour, however playing it loud enough in that it only disrupts people living with you isnt and is classed as something would be expected to resolve yourself. As far as smoking is concerned we either make it fully illegal, ie. cigarettes can not be brought in shops etc. or we allow people to use them how they want in their own space. If they have children then so what. I dread to think what will happen if labour get another term, we will start seeing legislation that bans any type of adulthood type stuff like banning adverts for bras, banning swearing in the street in front of a kid, if swear at children goto prison that kind of thing. This is the situation we heading towards. Children will grow up in a over protective fantasy world having state money thrown at them left right and centre, then they will hit adulthood and get the shock of their lives. there is already stories about making UK websites having a age rating system with anything above a PG needing some sort of physical id just so people can register and use the site, we getting very silly now. Round here I already see the affects of all this, I have had kids throwing stones at my windows and my neighbours knowing if we did anything back we would be spending the night in a cell. They know they are invincible and its getting to the stage where any adult doing any harmful to a child will be illegal. |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
http://www.thesmokingban.org/roy-castle.php Thats one that i found in less then a minute of looking i am sure if you want to look you can find others. Look i am not and never have said passive smoking doesn't exist or that it isn't harmful i am questioning the degree of damage that it causes as are many others not all of them smokers. This country is big enough for all groups to be happy there was no need for one group to totally lose out so one group can have it's own way. My biggest gripe here is the government involvement in personal lifestyle choices which is an area where i believe they should stay out of and get on with the normal business of government.
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Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
Rizzy, there is nothing in that link to show that Roy Castle smoked (unless I missed it).
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Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
piggy, Rizzy provided that link, but can't find where it says he smoked.
It states "First of all there is doubt about the claims of him being a life long non smoker. He is quoted to have said he hadn't touched a cigarette since leaving school and was also allegedly partial to smoking cigars socially." So, alleged and doubt are now proof he smoked? |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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funny they pick on someone whos already dead to make claims they are not telling the truth that of course wouldnt have anything to do with you not being able to liable dead people in the uk would it most medical ( not all but then there are still some wo think smoking is ok lol ) people now accept the health problems that second hand smoke causes and a would put death way down the list over the other problems it causes for those of us with chest illnesses |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
Let's not wander too much off topic please...:)
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Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
im a smoker myself and i accept the dangers of passive smoking, im also a roy castle fan (its a age thing) but on the balance of probabilities i can also accept roy castle smoked in his younger days, dont forget roy castle was around in the era when smoking was fashinable and before it was proven to be dangerous to health, also to waver back on topic should smoking be banned in cars imo no. are parents irresponsible who do,imo yes but being a crap parent is not against the law.
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Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
bit hard to just talk about in car smoke as there don't seem to be many studies based on just that criteria
what i fnd funny in that article they are quite willing to accept the study on theatrical fog /smoke which i have no argument with any particulates in a confined environment which are capable of in air suspension and are small enough to enter the lungs and settle are almost always bad for you but then they argue that the studies that show the same for second hand smoke are some conspiracy with drug companies ( cant realy see that they benifit from people being weller ( my word i like it so i am using it ;) ) |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
I see that Ontario Canada is the second province to ban smoking in cars carrying children under 15. Problem is the same as with using mobile phones and enforcing it of course.
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Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
Roger i was asked to provide a link and i did and it does say he himself was quoted as saying he hadn't touched a cigarette since leaving school and that he was known to some to smoke cigars socially. I did not look very hard as i said a minute tops and found one where it has been said he wasn't a total non smoker. I also liked Roy Castle and don't really care whether he did or not smoke what happened to him was a tradegy same as everyone that suffers\dies from cancer.
I just dislike the way both sides drag certain people up to support their argument and i never said i myself saw him smoke. But back on topic before we get our wrists slapped. I just think bans are too nannying from a government that right now should have bigger things to be doing rather then dictating personal lifestyle choice. Lets be honest for those selfish smokers that do smoke in cars when kids are in them they are not going to care if there is or isn't a law same as selfish people in general in all aspects so it is pointless. |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
didn't mean it to sound aimed at you
was aimed at the site its self |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
Slightly off topic here but should this lady be applauded for not smoking in the car with her son :erm: :confused:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7845771.stm Now that is shocking :Yikes: |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
I think that this is a very good thread, and am glad it was brought up, i believe that smoking is a persons choice, wether it be in a car or building, such as in pubs, the smoking ban, l believe has killed the pub trade, if you smoke in a car with children, this is another freedom of choice and up to the parents, and normally, if the child says, 'smoke is in my eye' then the parent would stopped.
The trouble, is we are told not to do this and not to do that, l say leave it down to the individual to decide, l don't smoke, but it is not up to me too tell another person not to. |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
while there are people like this arround we need some law to help make them see its not funny anymore
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090122/...d-dba1618.html |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
I don't think there will be a 'law' concerning this item, Cigarettes makes a lot of money for the government, and it wouldn't bother me if they increased the price, to £10.00 per packet, as people would still buy them.
In this country, some doctors won't treat patients with smoke related illness, unless they stop, due to the strain on the NHS, but too me, it is down to the person to stop smoking,. |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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Can you think of anyone who has cancer, has said the same sorts of things, didn't smoke and is still alive? |
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What other laws would you like to see? |
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Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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The above link is from an anti smoking ban movement? hardly unbiassed imo. They will grip onto anything to keep these death sticks around, if anyone as an adult wants to poison their own bodies go ahead and do it, just dont think it right to expose kids whose lungs are developing to second hand smoke let alone anyone. ---------- Post added at 10:31 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ---------- Quote:
Arthur it would be nice if some parents who smoke were considerate of their children but its my guess that any remark about smoke getting in the childs eyes will be met with a torrent of abuse if theyre lucky, a slap across the face in some cases is more the norm sadly. |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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Would you consider a study published in the British Medical Journal to be valid? From http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/326/7398/1057 Quote:
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Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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But there is still a link which is the point, as small as it may be thought, and how long ago was the study? It is not right to expose kids to second hand smoke end of imo. |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
Actually, if you click on Stuart's link, and look at the bottom (Relevant Articles), there appears to be disagreement about the report's methodology and findings.
(clicking on the Abstract/Extract gives a summary of each). |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
Smoking in car with children is just bad parenting and/or selfishess adults, it is to be discouraged, frowned upon etc.
But we do not need a law for this. What next smoking at home containing children to be banned? why stop there? Giving your kids unheathly food to be banned? fines for chips? You can't legislate for bad parenting. |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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I have a lot of friends who smoke in cars, or in rooms in the presence of their kids. When I comment about this, the respnse I hear the most is "It's not that bad", "wheres the proof that they will get cancer", " I know many people who smoke 20 a day and dont have cancer " etc etc. It does suprise me that such views are used as excuses but I do think that a lo of people still genuinely believe that passive smoking isn't such a big deal. |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
Quite apart from the rights and wrongs of smoking in the car, I have to query something.
How would such a ban be enforced? The police (who would probably have to enforce this) don't necessarily spend their time watching what each individual driver is doing in the care (and they certainly don't watch passengers). They should only be watching the driver if they think the driver is doing something dangerous. As I understand it, even the current mobile phone laws are only really enforced if the police officer happens to notice someone on the phone, or they are doing something dangerous. If the Police are watching drivers and passengers for signs of smoking, they may miss someone doing something geniunely dangerous to themselves, their passengers and other road users. It's also likely that CCTV and Speed cameras would be ineffective as they tend to focus on the driver, and unless they are all lowered (and thus be more susceptible to vandalism) to the same level as the car, they would be unable to see any children. Even if they had some sort of ability to see the kids, how would they detect the smoke? ---------- Post added at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was at 16:17 ---------- Quote:
While, as I have stated, I do not smoke, and actually would rather not be stuck in a car with a smoker, I agree that people should have a choice. Put simply, as long as the owner of the car is happy for any passengers to smoke and any passenger is happy for the owner to smoke, I don't believe it's anyone else's business (least of all the government's). |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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Doc: "You really shouldn't smoke. It can harm your baby." Patient: "But he's not breathing yet, is he?" Doc: "No, but it could make your baby grow less, so it might be born smaller." Patient: "Really? Great! Should make for an easier delivery!!" |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
" How would such a ban be enforced? "
Could take a look across the atlantic http://www.windsorstar.com/Health/ba...702/story.html |
Re: Should smoking in cars carrying children be banned?
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From the article Quote:
It also misses the subtle point that detection is part of enforcement (you can instigate all the bans you want, but if you have no means of detecting if they are being broken, they will be ineffective). Put simply, it is usually obvious when someone is speeding. You can see it. Even where it is not obvious (someone doing 60 in a 30 limit would be obvious, someone doing 35 in a 30 limit may not), there are various devices, such as radar guns, that can detect it. How would you tell if someone is smoking? As long as they aren't smoking something dodgy (which is already illegal) and driving dangerously, There will be little or no external signal that they are smoking. Ok, there may be some smoke coming from an open window, but what if they don't have windows open? What if they are just relying on the car's vents to remove the smoke (in which case, the cigarette smoke will just merge with all the gases coming out of the car already so will not be visible)? In extreme circumstances, there will be smoke visible in the passenger cabin, but this will only occur if the driver has been smoking a long time, is easy to get rid of (just open the vents and waft it toward them) and may not be easily visible on a CCTV camera (which, let's face it, is where the police seem to do most of their traffic enforcement). To make it easier, I'll rephrase the question. How would the police detect people smoking? Bear in mind that detection should be quick (to avoid unnecessary delays on busy roads), so the police may not be allowed to set up checkpoints where they can stop drivers and check them manually. |
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