Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

In 92 Major was at the head of a government which was involved in a justifiable war against Iraq (bad man with beard and oil), and had a lot of support from the public, and the Heliograph.
As a voting nation, we appear to be conservative at heart (at least in England anyway), with the ethos that if you work hard you should be rewarded, and if you want a reward, you should work for it.
There was also the fear of Neil Kinnock being PM, something which probably accounts for such a high turn out and the Tories getting the largest number of votes for a single party in any GE.
While there was a recession, it appears the majority trusted the Tories more to get us through it than Labour, and evidently they were right.
NuLabour don't have that support, people don't trust them financially or politically.
While the Tories may have been busy screwing their secretaries, NuLabour have been busy screwing us, and I know which I'd prefer politicians to do!

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

It depends when.

If Milliband does succeed Brown now, he will just inherit Brown's problems and legacy, which will tarnish Milliband by association. By the time the election rolls around, things would be even worse and Milliband wouldn't stand a chance. What I suspect will happen is that Labour will wait until the latest posssible moment before the next election (a few months, give or take), when the least can go wrong, install Milliband as PM and herald it as a new era, a fresh start and try to convince the public to give Milliband a clean slate to work from. If they can pull it off, then they do stand a chance as it will be an election between two young progressive guns on a fairly equal ground.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

People want labour out there is a feeling they have had power for too long and not done a lot with it despite all the waffle they come out with. One of the many reasons i think people don't like and will not take to brownshirt is that his scheming to get the job became known and anyone that replaces him will do so by scheming as well which also won't go down well.

Having hoisted brownshirt on us against our wishes lets not forget the public voted for blair who did state he would server a full third term and ended up with brownshirt the public is not going to accept another leadership change and another unelected PM. If they want to get rid of brownshirt then give us the election and let any new leader have that clean slate.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

True, but things didn't look quite that good for the Tories in 1990 when Thatcher was dumped and Major took control. Many within New Labour will be hoping the same can apply to them if they ditch Brown now and can restore some semblance of credibility over the next 2 years with a new leader. Let's not forget that, even now, Cameron's Tories are hardly all the people's favourites.....

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

The problem is, if they ditch Brown, they won't have another two years. To replace the PM twice without seeking a new mandate through the ballot box would be a step too far for a great many MPs, for the Press and a lot of the public. The country would become ungovernable because it would become impossible for the Government to get any messages out, or launch anything, without getting hectored over the date of the next election. If Brown goes (which is sadly unlikely), then there will have to be an election no later than next May.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I quite like Miliband, if he was leader, turned out to be fairly brave and enacted good polices instead of stupid ones I would vote for Labour.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Personally i have always found him to be non commital on things when directly asked and a bit slimey but then maybe i am just and old fart lol.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

You have to wonder about his morals and/or judgement don't you I mean whilst trying to dig himself out of the mire he's just been claiming that Brown can still lead them to victory..... :rolleyes:

I reckon most people would have a lot more respect for Milliband if he simply told the truth and acknowledged what we already know - that Brown is a total loser who's on the verge of destroying New Labour and must be replaced if they are to have any chance of winning the next election.

This makes interesting reading:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:49 ----------

I don't disagree entirely but a hell of a lot of what they've been up to over the last few years has been beyond the pale but that hasn't stopped them doing it and, sadly, getting away with it :mad: I reckon they're so desperate now they'd rather take that chance than stick with their version of King Canute and seal their fate.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I can't think of David Milliband without thinking of him on Headcases. Classic. :) Same with Gordon Brown too, funnily enough.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Im not sure but she can sack the PM on a whim if she chooses to, the population wrongly think she has very little power when she still has the ultimate power.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

The Monarch's powers, when exercised directly rather than by ministers acting on her (his) behalf, are exercised on the advice of ministers. In the case of the dissolution of Parliament (which is how a general election is triggered), she acts on a request from the Prime Minister.

She can't do otherwise, because it is part of her modern constitutional role to respect the democratic will of her people. It would provoke a constitutional crisis were she to try to dissolve Parliament other than on the request of the PM. I would guess the only time she could get away with it, would be if the ruling party itself were itself acting in a way likely to wreck the constitution (yes, I know Blair can be accused of that, but I'm talking really, really wrecking it, e.g. 1930s Germany).

There are one or two very rare occasions when the Monarch acts without 'advice'. One of those is when she invites someone to become Prime Minister. She has to choose the one who, in her judgement, is most likely to command a majority in the Commons. In practice it is usually very obvious who she has to choose - whoever won the election - but if there is a hung Parliament, then she has a little more latitude.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

It would go to the leader whose party got the most seats or, in the unlikely event of a draw in terms of seats, whose party won the popular vote? Wouldn't it?

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

The popular vote in the country has got precious little to do with it. The job goes to whomever the Monarch thinks is most likely to command a majority in the House of Commons. There is an argument that the leader of the largest minority party should get first dibs on the job, but there is no rule that says this has to be the case.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Labour need another term, they still have thousands of PC laws to get through and now that the CCTV pilot in Manchester has proved that drunken yobs are oblivious to them Labour will have to go ahead regardless, installing them throughout the rest of England.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Labour need another term, naturally enough - they exist to take and hold power, so yes, of course they do. But does the country need another term of Labour? I think not.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Basically, another reason our "monachy" is not needed no more.
They do nothing whatsoever for the people there supposed to serve.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Politics and Polititians drive me crazy! I'd rather have nothing to do with any of them. No matter how they look and sound, they'll still do a crap job at looking after the people and their country! :mad:

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7539364.stm

According to the article Harriet Harman reckons:

"When you face these kinds of global problems you need as prime minister someone who is respected,...."

"....Someone whose hard work and ability over the last 11 years has made Britain better off.

"Gordon Brown is the right person for the job."

What planet is she on? Gordon Brown is largely the reason we're in this appalling mess and whose respect does he have ?? Certainly not the public's it seems....

Note the clever use of the word 'global' in the context of problems - they wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea and blame them would they .......

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Seems like some of her colleagues don't agree with Ms Harman....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7539858.stm

There's an interesting bit about Blair's leaked comments on Brown's leadership at the end of the piece.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

What I find interesting is that Blair is alleged to have written those comments during September before everything went wrong for Brown. You wonder if Brown was made aware of the feelings at the time..

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Well given brownshirt is still taking advice from ol'tone i am sure he has some idea how blair feels. That really sums brownshirt up he schemes to remove blair and then takes advice from him on the job he has seeked for so long pathetic really.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Doubt it. Brown's opponents have clearly been biding their time. Cast your mind back to when Brown assumed control and he enjoyed something of a prolonged honeymoon period. Seems absurd to think of now of course, given everything that's gone wrong for him ever since....

Anyway it;ll be interesting to see how Gordy reacts to what's been going on. Will he be tough and decisive and get shot of Milliband or will he contimue to act like a rabbit caught in car headlights....

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

It's a great way of diverting the blame squarely onto Brown by saying he junked Bliar's agenda.
"No squire, not my fault, he didn't do what I said, if he had, things obviously would have been better" while totally ignoring that Bliar was destroying the nation since '97 anyway.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7613701.stm

.....and so the leadership challenge begins??.. If so, who's going to be brave or stupid enough to grasp the posioned chalice?

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Hmm, been thinking, and if they accept they're going to lose the next election, by getting rid of Brown and then calling for an election, they'll at least go out on a slight upward turn in a lot of peoples' minds.
They just need someone to take that fall.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Bring it on, the sooner He's gone the better.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

brown is the new Alec Douglas Home :) only he would have been PM a shorter time than brown

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Agree. Been saying that for ages - best to get shot ASAP, accept the next election is lost (almost certainly) and start to rebuild...... All they need is a half decent fall guy and a new name. How about 'New New Labour' ???.. :D

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Running scared thats what brown is. Seems like everyone who has the brass ones to stand up and say "lets look for a new leader" is getting canned.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Brown has always been a political coward and it is no surprise that now he has the top job he is again choking so much. My only concern is how much damage he will do as his revenge before we have a chance to get rid of him he is a very petty person and if he see's himself going down he will try and take others with him and maybe the UK as well.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Sorry, but how do you know this? We don't know the guy's motivations or personality. For all we know he is a decent man, who (imo) is simply not cut out to be PM. :confused:

I don't understand the trend to have a personal dislike of every politician. This country is obsessed with getting personal about these people when I think in most cases they are not the Machiavellian devils they are portrayed to be :erm:

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

As a 22yr old Damien I'm sure you have a wealth of experience.
Having lived through more Labour years than I care to remember and being no fan of Labour all I can say is that IMO Brown is spineless, he isnt decent, because if he was he would do the right thing, step down and allow a general election to be called.
This country isnt as you put it "obsessed" its just that the vast majority of people feel that he is dragging this country down a hole thats gonna take some getting out of.

The bloke isnt and elected prime minister so he doesnt deserve to be where he is.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I have no time for him simply because he has been in charge of the purse strings for years. All that mismanagement is now coming home to bite Labour on the arse and he and his party will find out what we think of him and them, when we get the chance to kick there collective arse's down the road at the election.

I for one will dance in the street when Labour get the big heave ho. My only concern is we could end up with a bunch of tree hugging libs who would not defend this country in time of need and who's only task in life would be to destroy this once great country by handing over whats left to Europe.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Surely nobody decent would lie and/or spin in the way he and Bliar have done ever since 1997 would they??....

Decent man or not, Brown is certainly not cut out to be PM - He'd make a great King Canute though...

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Ok, But two things to that:

First of all, I am not saying he is a great PM. All I am saying is that he does not have malicious intent in mind, at least I see no good reason to suspect that. It's quite easy to separate his personality and the politics from this. Stepping down is something that he properly does not want to do because he might believe he can do good (also, I suspect few would want to give up that position so quickly)

Also, My point about obsession is that this public attitude is not something Unique to Brown, or Blair. It's extends to most, of not all, politicians and also other people who serve the public. Such as police and to a lesser extent medical professionals. It's just a disrespect to authority, public service and often times people who have achieved something.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

:clap: :clap:

Well bloody said that man.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

To be honest, Alistair Darling tried a more "honest" approach the other week when he admitted the economical was in serious trouble (although I disagree with his dire assessment). Look where that got him.

I thinking the spin is not unique to Labour, Britain, or even politics. I think its a symptom of a society which is too tolerant of lies and not tolerant enough about mistakes.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Is that an indictment of the public or just the calibre of our politicians?

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Both, I think we get the leaders we deserve.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

It may have got him in hot water with brown but at least nobody could accuse him of spinning.

---------- Post added at 22:09 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

So politicians/leaders can't mould society, they just reflect it?

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I can tell you one thing he has achieved. The worst funding of the armed forces they have ever seen. My son had to buy his own kit for his last tour in Afghanistan, The reason was that they did not have enough in the stores to supply them all with the correct kit. So instead of using kit that was out of date and dilapidated he had to pay for his own :mad:, Who has had his hands on the budget for the last 10 years. Brown the non elected that's who.

so you can see why i have no time for him or his so called party

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Quite - and just how many times has Brown told us how much respect he has for our armed forces??

Brown's "Respect" is vying with the Zimbawean Dollar as the World's most devalued currency - it buys precious little!

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:19 ----------

Blimey, things at No 10 must be bad - even Clegg's jumped on the bandwagon now:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7614418.stm

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Yes, After all they really are a reflection of our society. They are a product of our society and It's very hard for them to change society because we are a very large group of many different people are are rightfully resistant to anyone telling us what to do. How can you change a society and it's culture? You can't*, it requires a critical mass of people before change can happen.

As a result a lot of social problems are caused and resolved by us together and not by sitting back and demanding the government do it. Look at youth crime, teenage pregnancy and so forth. Realistically, what could the government do about that? It's a problem that society needs to fix and the government to facilitate (give the tools to do so).

People seem to be unwilling to accept some personal responsibility and instead demand the government fix it. (A lot of social problems can not be tackled by government alone). A lot of people, including me, are not willing to investigate the complexities of every issue (and why should they? They have lives to led which is why we elect people in the first place) but are willing to form a passionate thought and express it based on little information such as news sources which can rarely impart the full story. Thus governments are forced to act on it which either leads to bad policy or spin, often both. They don't dare tackle the issue and make themselves look unpopular, something Brown is certainly guilty of.

So the public get sick of the lies they are in part reasonable for, someone else comes along and says "Hey, These guys are morons, I can solve this, this and this, it's easy!" and the cycle continues.

If we were more willing to be told we are wrong, more accepting the limitations of government, and more trusting (only a little more) of them on issues which we confess to know little about then we may begin to see a environment in which a politicians who are honest can be successful. It won't be perfect but it would be better, and we would have healthier dialogue between them and us as a result.

*something people should remember before thinking our culture can be changed by Muslims, Immigrants or whomever else, against the will of the majority.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

"New" labour got in because people were fed up with the Tories, and now it seems pretty certain that the pattern will repeat.

People were fed up with Blair, fed up with the will he/won't he pass the baton to PM apparent Brown.

So Brown had a dead cat bounce because he wasn't Blair, and then the chancellor was to blame for not putting something away when things were better - and who was the chancellor - BROWN!

It's time we thought seriously about proportional representation, to halt the destructive shifts of ideology. The London assembly has shown there is a way to combine direct representation and proportional systems, negating one argument against PR that you would not have "your MP".

Another argument aginst PR, is that it could elect a BNP MP, though the shock protest vote would likely diminish under the fair representation of PR. Several other groups that may not be to everyone's taste could also get some seats, but equally, so could minority groups that you do agree with.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Ok Damien you want some examples of brownshirts political cowardice i will start with the most recent ones and allow you to look further back to see the long list. First he doesn't come straight out at blair for the leadership of the party and didn't challenge before the election he let his friends start the whispering campaign and then strolled into the job after as we now know a lot of behind the scene's bullying and threatening.

He gets the job goes 95% of the way towards calling an election a little bad press and bang runs for the hills how much is that one going to come back to bite him had he gone for the election at that time labour might have lost but it wouldn't have been as bad as it is going to be and he could have stayed leader blaming blair, so not only his political courage in doubt but also his judgement.

But to me the biggest act of cowardice on his part that in many ways has driven the rest of it was his haste to get out of the treasury knowing that he had squandered the good times and that the cost of that was coming home to roost. That drove his push to get blair out so he could stroll into the pm's job and at the same time this economical genius that for a decade was happy taking praise from everyone for his great handling of the economy now takes no responsibility whatsoever for the mess we are now in always blaming "global conditions".

He is not a decent man he is a devious, manipulative and bullying man that has got to a position he has always strived for only to find he isn't good enough for the job but again rather then admit that and make way no he will drag us all down trying to prove he can do a job that is obviously totally beyond him.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

The government is directly responsible for the economy, the law and just about everything else that matters. If they cock it up, lie, cheat, spin etc. of course the public are going to get fed up and complain. Why wouldn't they? What power has the man in the street to change any of what they do except by voting them out? If I could affect what Brown does I wouldn't bother moaning about him on here I'd change the policy and get rid of him.

This government hasn't set any form of good example to the public and neither has it empowered people to do the right thing in many cases. In fact it's implemeted and/or presided over laws which remove the authority of parents, teachers etc. over our youth. It's done nothing tangible to tackle knife crime and the sort of gang culture which led to the likes of Gary Newlove and coutless others becoming victims of mindless violence.

Our leaders have lied, cheated and misled us throught their tenure and there's no escaping that fact. Were they our parents they'd have set the worst possible example to their children and that's why so many people despise them so much. They talked the talk but never had either the ability or intention of walking the walk.

They are useless and pathetic!

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Did he not also sign this country down the river at a different time to everyone else with that European constitution thing so he could keep it quiet.

I just wish he and his party would do the right thing and get the hell out before they drag this country even further in to the crap they have created.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

and when those around him tell him he's wrong he sacks them, what a guy:rolleyes:

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Just seen this on another site

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Yes - he was supposed to be the listening PM wasn't he?? I mean ever since he took over from Bliar he's been telling everyone how he'll be different i.e. no more spin; face challenges; do the right thing; admit mistakes; listen to the people etc. etc. blah blah blah...

The guy coveted power for years and in the haste to gain it he lied and misled us just as much as Bliar ever did. He listens only to what he wants to hear.

Brown has all the worst traits of Bliar coupled with a charisma bypass.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Now where else have i seen that happen ;)

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

True and a half decent leader with passion, morals and vision would galvanise the masses to positive effect NOT stultify them!

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Gordy's just soooooooo good at listening to people isn't he...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7616106.stm

:rolleyes:

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

He has never been a listener that much was clear long ago with civil servents leaking how hard it was to communicate and establish relationships with him as chancellor. We were all warned long before he became pm what sort of person he was and sadly for us and our country he has shown it in the top job. It is bad enough that the country will suffer more then it had to economically but the damage to our standing internationally may be harder to repair then even the economy.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Special envoy for Forestry? I bet he'll miss that high profile job. :erm:

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Yes that probably was the reason he felt he could voice his concerns. Just a pity some of Brown's Cabinet team don't say what they really think.

Apparently Gardiner was specially elected for that post due to his inability to see the wood for the trees :D

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I won't be shedding any tears when Labour is ousted, but the country has already been handed over to "Europe" because we have ratified the Lisbon Treaty. We are in real terms now no more than a collection of regions to be ruled by EU institutions. Our next government, no matter which party forms it, will have only interpretative powers over policy and a minor say say when formulating those policies. And the other parties likely to form the next government have put up only the flimsiest of opposition to any of it. They're all in it up to their rotten little self-serving necks and policies won't change by much after the next election.

:mad:

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Because people see he is causing a lot of damage at current, borrowing to try and win votes and making big mistakes.

Although I agree he came into power at a unlucky time but lets not forget many of the problems stem down from his time as chancellor and he is reacting in a bad way to them as PM.

---------- Post added at 16:42 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------

to be fair you have a point, I felt the media reacted badly to that, they were essentially telling him they would have preffered he lied so people are misled into thinking the economy is better for confidence reasons.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I actually think he is a bad PM. He certainly will not be getting my vote, but my point (which most people bar you and Osem seemed to ignore) was not about Brown but politics overall, and that we the public have to shoulder some of the blame when things don't work out. The only constant with all our Prime Minsters is how much the public claims to hate them. This topic won't read much different when a similar one is posted 5 years from now about whoever the PM is at that time...

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Brown is PM and before him was Bliar. They had the power and resources given by the electorate to do the right thing and cocked it up royally. Why are we to blame for that? Whether or not I hate the next PM will depend entirely on what calibre of person they are - if they're rubbish they'll be in trouble but if they at least do what they promised beforehand and I voted for that then I won't be blaming them for anything. Bliar and Brown gained power under false pretences and failed to deliver what they promised in what way am I to blame for that?

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Not you personally, since I don't know you personally. I am talking about the general public. The view that often gets assigned to the public by the media and judging by a lot of this forum is a good indication of that public.

I already mentioned the reasons why I think the public is not blameless in the way the country is (Although I think it's still pretty good). It's because everyone seems to think the goverment is the answer to everything, we demand to much which means politicans promise too much, we never look at the success of the governments and focus on the negative. It's all unhealthy way to do politics.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Blame the politicians, then blame the voters. Who or what else shall we blame?

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

New labour came to power on the back of a lot of promises that THEY told us were not hard to deliver and they were both the right party with the right people to deliver it and yes we the public fell for it. THEY then said they had made a start on delivering but needed more time so we voted them in again on good faith.

Your right Damien we are to blame because we believed them and we wanted to believe them then kept wanting to believe they were going to deliver what they promised. But here is the thing most people voted at the last election for labour after an assurance by tony blair he would serve a full third term as PM with the underlying understanding being that he would then hand power to brownshirt and he would fight for ther fourth term.

Did blair mean it as much as i dislike what he represents i think he did unfortunately he had brownshirt waiting in the wings to oust him as soon after that victory as he could and even then didn't come straight out but had his little friends undermine blair and then took over thats why i dislike brownshirt mainly i think that one act showed you all you need to know about brownshirt he is not a man of conviction and he isn't a man that you can have confidence in of keeping his word on a damn thing he says or anyone else says on his or the labour party's behalf.

Thats why he will lose the next election it is why labour will lose the next election and lose it massively. Contempt for the public is a fact of life with politicians and we know they all have it to varying degree's but showing it so blatantly shows a stunning amount of arrogance.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Getting rid of Gordon Brown will only make a superficial difference as it is the basic underlying policies and philosophy which is wrong.

New Labour is all about image and not substance.

They have modified the old Labour philosophy of "tax and spend" to "borrow, tax and spend", with the result that the UK, like a lot of its citizens, is up to its eyeballs in debt.

As a nation we need to save more and spend less. We also need to increase common sense in government and to massively reduce waste.

We all need to live within our means because when the recession really bites those in debt without savings are going to find things really hard as are the more vulnerable groups like pensioners.

In essence, it is New Labour who must go rather than just Gordon Brown, who is the scapegoat trying to make inappropriate policies work. No wonder he always looks so glum!!

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

to say 'we' are to blame is also wrong.

More than 50% of the country did not vote for labour in 1997.

Because of first past the post system most elections will grant full power to a party with less than half the votes.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

One good thing about the financial 'crisis' - the amount of junk mail offering us credit cards, loans, balance transfers, equity release schemes etc. etc. has dried right up. Small comfort really though......

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

True. The banks and building societies are reverting back to the management style they used before sub-prime lending.

Now, you will only get a mortgage or a loan if you have an excellent credit rating, own your own house and present a minimal non-repayment risk.

Pity they did not stick to this old tried and trusted management style because had they done so we would not be in the financial mess we are in.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Despite protestations to the contrary:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7618362.stm

it appears David Cairns is indeed about to resign.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4766887.ece

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Given the serious mire UK PLC finds itself in, good old prudent, listening, Gordy has largely been conspicuous by his absence so far as I can see. Perhaps the financial crisis coupled with the inflation and unemployment statistics has something to do with that. How many times did Brown proudly proclaim he'd broken the cycle of boom and bust??..... Blah, blah, blah.....

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7622324.stm

Blah, blah, blah....... Heard it all too many times from both Bliar and Brown over the years.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

It really is getting very, very tiresome.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

So whom you do fancy in place of Gordon Brown?

I know that in reality you want a general election but it's not going to happen just yet so whom do we get to replace the man.

To be truthful I can't think of anyone from the present camp..but then I've no time for most politicians whatever their party.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

That's like asking whether I'd prefer a lethal injection or the firing squad. I prefer to make life as hard as possible for the executioner. He can choose for himself. I'm screwed either way.

Frankly, the exact manner of Labour's demise is neither here nor there. What concerns me is that the longer they spend dying, the greater mess we will all be in. Someone, anyone, from within the Labour party is a good thing because they know fine well that whoever it is will find the country totally ungovernable without the mandate of a fresh General Election.

Any New Labour Leader = Election Sooner Rather Than Later. And that's all that matters.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

If they're not going to hold a general election on change of primeminister, then I say keep Brown, he's one of the best assets the Tories and Libdems have :D
I'm begining to think it's time for a proper change and have the libdems in opposition against the tories, with labour decimated.
Best outcome of the next election? All cabinet members lose not only their seats but their deposits :D

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Sadly I think they know they'll be screwed for the next 10-12 years and will cling to power by their fingertips and try to get some 'unpopular' legislation through before they get turfed out.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

There isn't a major difference between the main parties. Labour have really continued the demise of the country that the Tories started.... and the cycle will continue after the next election.

If we really want to see a difference then I believe we have to look at the whole way the country is governed. For a start a change to in the electoral system to Proportional Representation may attract a different type of politician, rather than the grey suited career politicians we have at present.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I don't think the Tories 'started' the demise of the country and nor do I think Labour continued it. I think both did good and bad things, but thiscountry is not "going to hell in a handcart".

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I certainly hope we're not "going to hell in hand cart" - what ever that means:dunce: but I do think that since the 70s our politicians have supervised the gradual demise of this Country. They have sold the family silver cheaply(Privatisation), destroyed most of our manufacturing industry and our now mortgaging our children's futures (PFI).

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Don't know anything about the last one, PFI, but the other two seem like a natural progression rather than a 'demise'. We live in the information economy

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

PFI is a ticking timebomb.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

We'll have to disagree on that, I don't see anything natural or progressive...

I agree Osem. PFI is a ticking timebomb, a Tory initiative that was fully embraced by the New Labourites. We aren't creating any wealth any more because of the failure of successive Tory and Labour Governments so how do we pay for our crumbling schools, hospitals and roads? Pass the burden onto the next generation. We're using up all their fossil fuels so we may as well spend their inheritence.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Ergh, John Major's privatisation of BR, anyone. :erm: Sigh.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

how about this.

list of things tories started and labour allowed to continue or get worse.

1 - privatised utilities
2 - selling off of council housing stock
3 - shift of taxation from income tax to other taxes (mostly done under labour tho)
4 - legislating practices that allow businesses to keep wages down (although labour intruced the min wage there is various other things going on keeping wage inflation at a minimal)
5 - lowering taxes for the elite
6 - outsourcing government jobs/roles to private companies who make vast profits out of it, PFI is one such thing but there is others.
7- low interest rates to promote debt spending and a unsustainable housing market.
8 - short term policies for short term gains, tories did it with north sea oil, closure of coal mines, private pensions, selling of council houses, importing cheaper products. Labour continued it with allowing mass immigration, starting PFI, raid tax on pension funds, borrowing money during good times so they looked better then they are.

Both parties do have many things in common, they going after the middle class family voters and pensioners, they both are complying with banks and big corporates needs, allowing tax loopholes to continually exist, both want first past the post to stay, both refuse a eu referendum, both want the war in iraq, both want a continuing housing boom regardless of the consequence.

When the tories come in the end of the bad part of the economic cycle will happen during their first 4 years and they will look like economic genuises to the fickle population, what will they change? I expect not much. I expect the nhs budget to drop alongside other public services and tax breaks for the rich and middle class. They will still try and save the housing market before it naturally recovers and continue the attacks on benefits claimants.

The only party talking any sense is lib dems, they recently said what needed saying that we are a nation obsessed with owning property and we need to get over it. Of course they can say what they think openly as they know they will never be in power to action it.

The harsh reality from stripping the country of its wealth (we now quite a poor country with a few wealthy individuals), is we now dont produce anything, massive trade defecit, taxed heavily, in masses of debt, no natural resources, a population that is broke, and no national pride.

9 - perhaps the most damaging one, allowing banks to have less and less regulation and to break the law.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Quick question, which banks have actually broken the law and which acts have been broken?

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Unpalatable as it may be for some, the state owned industries weren't exactly models of efficiency and public responsibility were they. Under the previous system, much of our infrastructure had been neglected for decades and the massive investment it required could only be paid for in 2 ways - more taxes under state ownership or more profits under private ownership. Successive governments not surprisngly chose the latter since they'd then be able to claim any credit but have private companies to absorb any resulting flak. Both systems of ownership have been seen to have been flawed to an extent but whichever one you take it's ultimately the public who pay either through tax or price increases. At the time the coal industry was rationalised it was largely uneconomic since coal could be imported far cheaper from elsewhere. How many people back then would have wanted to pay more in tax to subsidise UK coal and who could have foreseen oil at $150 a barrel and circumstances under which that coal would be again viable? Still, I do think more effort should have been made to preserve the existing investment in coal since we're built on it.

---------- Post added at 08:31 ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 ----------

Hmm funny way of showing it! Still with mass redundancies likely at New Labour HQ, here's Jack's latest bandwagon:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...do?expand=true

Some of the comments make intersting reading.

and on the subject of their HQ, here's one I'd missed from a while back:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ty-427849.html

More double standards!

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Just been watching Brown on Andrew Marr's show and think I now have a better idea of how Adolf Hitler was acting as the Russians approached his bunker.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Been listening to Ed Miliband this morning on Radio 5 - he made a lot of fuss about how Gordon has been listening, how they've admitted their mistakes and how voters aren't interested in celebrity leaders but will trust Gordon's honesty and experience to see us through.

I'm not asure where Ed's been for the last decade or so but Brown has never listened to anyone and the only time he's admitted mistakes is when he's been forced to. Milliband cited the 10p fiasco as some siort of example of their honesty and humility but as soon as it was announced the Lib Dems made the point that there'd be serious losers amongst vulnerable groups and from that time until they were forced into a U turn Brown and his cohorts denied there was anything wrong.

Miliband banged on about honesty and clearly thinks we should all be grateful for how well Brown's got us out of this mess. Odd how he refused to acknowledge the huge amount of government debt which is a direct result of Brown's ineptitude and which we taxpyers are going to be paying for for decades. He clearly doesn't thinks this matters at all!

As for Brown's economic experience - wasn't it on his watch that this financial bubble was being rapdily inflated? Why trust him to get us out of a problem he stood by and allowed to happen?

Anyway, it's all OK because according to Ed Miliband the entire Cabinet are fully supportive of Gordon. Yet more honesty from the party which invented spin.... :rolleyes:

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I think the situation we have got means there will be no leadership challenge this year as whoever launches it will sink like a stone. Also no one does at this minute want to take over the leadership as they all know damn well more bad news is on it's way and any new leader coming in now is going to be badly tainted by the continuing bad economic climate which in the case of the UK is worse then it needed to be thanks to brownshirt and his merry yes men.

No all these sincere honest people will wait till next year then oust him having only a year to go before an election they know they will lose but hoping they are able to put all the blame on brownshirt and then get back in sooner rather then later.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I think New Labour have made too many mistakes and it's obvious that they are either not listening or don't know how to deal with the problems which they have allowed to happen.

A government that bases its economic strategy on borrowing and market forces to carry out its policies is like an individual who lives a lifestyle funded by an evergrowing number of credit cards all of which end up being maxed out.

Using a bit of common sense, there are many things we can do to get the economy and society moving in the right direction, but unfortunately self-interest and political correctness get in the way.

Sadly, New Labour lacks the strategic planning skills, common sense and discipline to remedy the situation and Gordon Brown is Captain Bligh on a doomed ship with a mutinous crew.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Damien one thing labour could have done is reduced the nhs budget inline with reduced tax income to prevent extra borrowing, they then should have either scrapped the 10p tax band and stuck to the decision or not scrapped it at all. Shouldnt have reduced the middle income tax band knowing full well it would mean they need to borrow money, handled northern rock differently, not reward bribes to parents, 2 examples cash for taking kid to gp and cash paid out for every new born child they both pointless benefits. Few examples there of wasting money.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Not an entirely bad speech today from him, although there was one line in it

Which I can't help but translate as.

"You think we've taxed the hell out of you so far? You ain't seen nothing yet" :(

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7630567.stm

No what we got instead was an unelected numpty and a bunch of yes men. :)

---------- Post added at 18:50 ---------- Previous post was at 18:46 ----------

I have said it before when it comes to help from J. K. Rowling. Watch the new years honours, you can bet she will be in them.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Oh we feel your pain Gordon, it stung you did it? Not half as hard as it stung the millions who had their income tax double, or the millions who will be paying for your bodged attempt to buy votes back.
Sorry, but the person who had "no idea" of the impact of removing the 10p rate is not someone I consider to be astute enough to lead the nation through the financial troubles we are now in, as demonstrated by the continued pledge to spend and borrow!
Labour ministers who claim you are the best person to get us through this are either incompetent or liars.
The only ones who may actually be honest are those who say you're the best the party has! Of course that doesn't say much for the rest of the party.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

:tu: you've hit the nail on the head there

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I like the thing about people being able to get any medication now, but I do hope they don't mean everyone for everything. Serious conditions only...

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Same crap, different day. :zzz:

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

I think it's basically cancer prescriptions, something talked about for a while and feet dragged over. Good news on that front. The ID card ramblings yesterday at the conference were pretty scary though.

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Bet it's going to be another "loft insulation for all!" fiasco.
Pretty sure my mum gets free prescriptions because she's diabetic, so it's probably going to mostly cover people who already get free prescriptions plus a few conditions who currently don't.
I'd love to know where the money for it is going to come from though? Maybe Wales and Scotland could subsidise us?

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Or maybe Londoners could do it seeing they get more money per head than anyone else. :)

Re: Brown on the ropes? [Update - Labour loses Glasgow East By Election]
 

Do we? Awesome :D

Take that everywhere else ;) (Especially Scotland, Stupid SNP)