Originally Posted by Mox3d (Post 34582916)

More people read these forums than some may give credit for. I've popped in and looked ever since VM took over, ever since Blueyonder took over, in fact since the early days of Telewest broadband. It's taken a long time but there has to come a point at which one has to say `too far, no more'.

VM with me are on a very sticky wicket. Our relationship has spiralled downward ever since the first day I called VM CS. That patronising voice saying how there are now four choices, choosing, waiting, choosing again, the customer service disconnects while you wait, the unintelligible language of at least half of the CS telephone staff, the fact that I was one of the very first to have broadband in my area with Telewest in 1998, the fact that since 2003 I've payed for the top level service from when it was 1mb to the current 20mb, the prospect of throttling just irritates and angers me beyond words.

You can call it what you like, quantize it, divide it, categorize it, diagnose my modem I don't care any more. The fact is this. 20mb connection speed is what I am paying for. If I find so much as once that I am `throttled' back to anything less than the best service you can be assured I will be leaving VM.

Gone are the days where customer service meant one on one conversation with someone who knew your first name. Gone are the days when if you had something to say about service then you would be duly heard, maybe a new policy would be rolled out too. Gone is the time where value means you get exactly what it says on the lid. I have little in the way of positive things to say about Virgin Media. I am in fact appalled at the entire service overall. The gritty TV signal quality, patchy broadband, atrocious phone services etc. In fact I am on the edge of suicide just reading this back to myself.

I'll just say that there are many unhappy customers about to come out of the woodwork, all of whome are equally disillusioned by VM's advertising and service in general. Throttling elite customers will be very much the beginning of the end.

These are my opinions. I'm sorry if I come across angry.

Originally Posted by mcmanic (Post 34583019)

throttling gaming ports?.......thats just plain wrong.......what next - charging to use wii, xbox360 or PS3...........and talking about PS3 - why is it nearly all VM users get real bad download speeds on PSN (ps3 network), yet fine on xbox360, and no its not router settings, nearly everyone i know who has VM suffer from this yet BT lines/ect, ect are fine?

But seriously throttling or whatever applications such as games is taking the mick to another level. What do they actually want us to use our BB for?

Originally Posted by spankysmagicpian (Post 34583085)

If they are going to throttle Usenet traffic to combat piracy..... why have they provided access to a shiny new Newsgroup server with more binary groups than we had before with NTL?

Originally Posted by Acathla (Post 34583091)

and I assume that they won't throttle the legal transactions that take place on Usenet?
Oh no wait, they can't tell what's being downloaded/uploaded over SSL.

So are they going to assume that just because I transfer files via Usenet that they are illegal? I'm not an expert but I am sure thats some sort of Defamation

Originally Posted by Impz2002 (Post 34583176)

They will not be throttling based on weather the files your downloading are legal it is just the fact that you are downloading large amounts so it could be a movie or the latest linux distro it dosnt matter to them its all GB's and thats all they are bothered about. Its just another example of VM's tight fisted tactics to sell the service you pay for to someone else !

Impz

Originally Posted by spankysmagicpian (Post 34583085)

If they are going to throttle Usenet traffic to combat piracy..... why have they provided access to a shiny new Newsgroup server with more binary groups than we had before with NTL?

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34583203)

Because if you use VM's newsgroups they save on bandwith as its all internal :)

It's not about piracy per say, more about you using GB's of external bandwith to which they do not want to pay for.

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34583222)

In some area's yes, in most areas games actually cause more problems than bittorrent though.

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34583222)

In some area's yes, in most areas games actually cause more problems than bittorrent though.

Originally Posted by LostintheNW (Post 34583349)

How come games cause more problems? and its only VM who seem to have the most trouble, my connection is shocking at times when I am playing on xbox live, or the connection will vary from good to my connection is being routed via pluto so games are unplayable. Lovely VM have stated there is nothing they can do and its obviously my xbox :) - heaven forbid its their service

Going off this throttling business (dare I say this?) but game ports are going to be throttled as well? And who wants a bet on when VM will start throttling the standard internet port (80 and 8080 aren't they?)

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34583361)

Games cause problems on sky as well, thus why they no longer let you keep interleaving on (i believe?)

They use more uplink bandwith than you think and believe it or not there is alot more gamers than there is p2p users online at the same time, each card is only 38mbit and uplinks soon get saturated (this is the main reason for slow speeds, rather than people downloading 24/7)

Originally Posted by grubbymitts (Post 34583374)

PANIC! RUN TO THE HILLS!

Has anyone thought that the fact that Virgin Media have actually denied this for once may mean that it isn't in fact going to happen? As we all know, they are not known for outright denying things.

I'm not doubting Traxdata or his sources. I'm sure throttling has been discussed at some point, but in business lots of ideas get discussed and not all of them are implemented. I used to be a union rep at a massive company and was privvy to a lot of changes that were discussed that would be as shocking to some people as this throttling idea is. Yet, I can tell you now that a lot of the ideas that were floated around and minuted, discussed and even had an action date (like throttling's third quarter 08 or first quarter 09 for example) didn't come to fruition because they were just ideas.


tl;dr - Ideas get thrown about business all the time. Chill baby, it probably won't happen.

Originally Posted by Benmar (Post 34583380)

Indeed, and sometimes goes further than that. In 2005/6 ntl were going to put everyone on the same broadband speed and charge for data usage instead. Staff got issued with Internal product books that said for ALL the broadband speeds "10Mb coming soon", they all had training on the usage tracker that was going to be introduced and a provisional date was briefed.

Never happened

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34583378)

They publically denied STM as well ;)

And if you read their reply it actually states they are *not* using it now *publically*, they CANNOT publish details about any type of trials at all, so they wont say it.

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34583392)

And that's because its far easier to cram as many users as they can on the network and just STM it to hell while only investing in STM.

Originally Posted by grubbymitts (Post 34583395)

"Virgin Media has an open and transparent traffic management policy listed at www.virginmedia.com/traffic. Our policy does not discriminate internet traffic by application and we have no plans to do so. Whilst we do use equipment from Allot within parts of our cable network, this is used to build usage metrics and does not affect customers’ service in any way. It is certainly not used to do any form of packet shaping or change internet traffic priorities.�

Trax, I'm having difficulty finding that in there. I suppose you could read it like that if you squint a little, move words about and generally put more in. I've ordered you a tinfoil hat, all in the name of goodhearted fun of course.

I hope you are completely wrong

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34583401)

Allot is already used on the ADSL side of the network where they already use it to shape p2p/usenet and traffic during peak hours so that's one lie direct from VM there ;)

Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 34583400)

And if they had gone ahead with it? Would anyone on here actually accepted it?

Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 34583400)

And if they had gone ahead with it? Would anyone on here actually accepted it?

Originally Posted by Horace (Post 34583404)

I don't trust either VM or Traxdata on any of this, both lost credibility in my eyes long ago, however, if this does get implemented and they target only the heaviest downloaders then they have no excuse for keeping STM, especially on the lowest tiers and should be removed, benefiting the majority of users and only hitting those that detremientally affect the rest of the users (sounds like a VM blurb I know).

Originally Posted by Horace (Post 34583404)

I don't trust either VM or Traxdata on any of this, both lost credibility in my eyes long ago, however, if this does get implemented and they target only the heaviest downloaders then they have no excuse for keeping STM, especially on the lowest tiers and should be removed, benefiting the majority of users and only hitting those that detremientally affect the rest of the users (sounds like a VM blurb I know).

Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 34583406)

It is not a lie. They were specifically referring to the cable network (Which is why it links to the cable traffic management page, not the ADSL traffic page), as you specifically mentioned the addtion of application managment on the cable network

The ADSL traffic management page here http://www.virgin.net/helpme/broadba...s_traffic.html does already mention that they application manage

Originally Posted by LostintheNW (Post 34583409)

Are you classing me as a user who affects other users as I simply use my broadband to download e-mails and play online games? given that online gaming can cause an issue. VM wont target anyone specifically as that involves time and more money picking out who these people are, far easier for them to lump everyone together as pirates, abusers of the internet and screw everyone over at the same time

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34580517)

This, is, as far as one is aware going to be used for both in and out of peak hours for whoever they see "fit" as a heavy user.

Originally Posted by Horace (Post 34583419)

Who knows.

Originally Posted by Horace (Post 34583463)

I don't know how you dare download MP3's on Virgins superior network.


Flac is so much better.

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34583401)

They even publically said that, what VM say and what VM do are extremely differet matters.

Originally Posted by Neptune (Post 34583752)

CAS (Controlled Access ??)

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34583759)

Controlled Access System AKA Allot.

Originally Posted by Rik (Post 34583470)

I think VM will be getting the concrete boots ready for you soon Trax! :D
Silence him! at all costs! :D

Originally Posted by broadbandbug (Post 34583892)

Next Generation CAS is the Digital TV Conditional Access System. i.e. Nagra.

It has nothing to do with Broadband Internet:dozey:

Originally Posted by darthlinux (Post 34584278)

*waits for the I dont care statement from TraxData*

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34584282)

Just got home from work. Turned on my PC and guess what i have been STM'd and all i have done is surf this site. STM is just another way of saving money for VM. :mad:

Originally Posted by Jonathan90 (Post 34584287)

sirius that oversubscription to my eyes

Originally Posted by grubbymitts (Post 34584261)

but Phorm hasn't actually been rolled out yet though, has it?

Originally Posted by Jonathan90 (Post 34584287)

sirius that oversubscription to my eyes

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34584303)

At this point last night i could download at 18.56mb and the same the night before.

I come home tonight to find i have been STM'D. I am on to tech support at the moment asking WTF :)

Originally Posted by darthlinux (Post 34584306)

GOOD LUCK

Originally Posted by darthlinux (Post 34584312)

Sirus heres how the call will go

Hello sir reboot ur modem 5 times please, ok what speed are you getting then you say 500Kb/s they say ok sir thats 20Mb thank you bye, then you get back through and they tell you theres a outage thank you bye, you might aswell hang up I have just told you how the call will happen

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34584314)

Next call is to retentions, I want a rebate on my payment for this month.

Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 34584318)

Customer Relations will try to avoid crediting for service issues.

Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 34584324)

I tried to clairify my reply. Did it after you quoted it, sorry

Originally Posted by PeteTheMusicGuy (Post 34584052)

Virgin Mafia ;) They might send Tony Soprano round to Trax :sniper: :D

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34584314)

Just slammed the phone down. He told me my levels are wrong and i would need a engineer. :erm:

Cable Modem Upstream
Upstream Lock : Locked
Upstream Channel ID : 3
Upstream Frequency : 25808000 Hz
Upstream Modulation : QPSK
Upstream Symbol Rate : 2560 Ksym/sec
Upstream transmit Power Level : 42.5 dBmV
Upstream Mini-Slot Size : 2

I have had those same levels for months with no problems


Next call is to retentions, I want a rebate on my payment for this month.

Originally Posted by Neptune (Post 34583964)

...my fault, I assumed CAS was related to broadband.

Perhaps VM intend to issue new viewing cards next year??

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34584282)

Just got home from work. Turned on my PC and guess what i have been STM'd and all i have done is surf this site. STM is just another way of saving money for VM. :mad:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/06/9.png

Not bad for 20 meg

Originally Posted by broadbandbug (Post 34584343)

I am sure they will do so when they introduce the Nagra 3 system

---------- Post added at 19:08 ---------- Previous post was at 19:04 ----------



That is not STM!

Originally Posted by darthlinux (Post 34584363)

Maybe it was just alittle he-cup then sirius

Originally Posted by Uncle Peter (Post 34584332)

I doubt VM could afford Tony so they might have to settle for the bloke from the Mr Muscle ad. I think Trax can rest easy ;)

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34585257)

The problem here is no regulation is stopping this rubbish, it could be argued VM have been slow on doing this as already the majority of adsl isps traffic shape. Because they get away with it then it becomes a disadvantage to not traffic shape customers because you then have higher costs over your competitors. (which is cheaper buying capacity or throttling speeds).

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34583361)

Games cause problems on sky as well, thus why they no longer let you keep interleaving on (i believe?)

They use more uplink bandwith than you think and believe it or not there is alot more gamers than there is p2p users online at the same time, each card is only 38mbit and uplinks soon get saturated (this is the main reason for slow speeds, rather than people downloading 24/7)

Originally Posted by brundles (Post 34585262)

What you say makes sense, but the lack of throttling is also a competitive advantage - one that VM are still trumpeting about (albeit in a very carefully worded fashion!). While VMs new customer, discounted, prices are relatively competitive their standard prices are distinctly uncompetitive - something people have agreed to pay because of that previously mentioned competitive advantage.

Will VM be revising their pricing strategy in line with the revised service? Somehow I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Broadbandings (Post 34585782)

Sky are using an automagic dynamic line management system but would have no trouble with interleave at all. Interleave actually saves Sky bandwidth.

There are no upload issues on Sky either, DSL being as it is there's equal bandwidth apart from at the customer's DSL line itself in both directions.

Think you're a bit confused somewhere on that one.

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34585785)

Sky stopped using interleaving due to it causing problems on the network, these days they wont let anyone use it.

Correct about the upload issues, i think it's fairly sad when ADSL manages to outdo cable.

Originally Posted by Broadbandings (Post 34586023)

The Sky DSL service is intended to be as reliable as possible

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34585266)

I dont know of any isps openly advertising they dont throttle other than aaisp and only on their own website. The biggest marketing tool in the uk at current is low price followed by high burst speed. Its why various adsl isps have no issue selling a 24mbit product for £10 that less than 1% of people will get that speed and is clearly oversold. I do know of isps saying that the fact they throttle as well is to improve your connection so they sometimes use it as a selling point. Throttling/shaping has infected the uk marketplace and is considered as normal practice now and is very worrying.

Originally Posted by TraxData (Post 34585785)

Sky stopped using interleaving due to it causing problems on the network, these days they wont let anyone use it.

Correct about the upload issues, i think it's fairly sad when ADSL manages to outdo cable.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34587607)

umm, if you on adsl2+ you have to have interleaving for stability. On adsl1 they let you use fast path but on the worst lines they will enable interleaving by default. In addition depending on the line interleaving can boost speed. The disadvantage is a latency increase.

Originally Posted by dragon (Post 34587715)

Depends on the ISP I have ADSL2+ on fastpath ;)

Originally Posted by darthlinux (Post 34587817)

Take it you have BE internet Dragon?

Originally Posted by dragon (Post 34587715)

Depends on the ISP I have ADSL2+ on fastpath ;)

Originally Posted by dragon (Post 34587834)

Yep :)

Originally Posted by Broadbandings (Post 34589115)

And you asked to be put on fastpath as they put people on interleave by default ;)

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 34589395)

With all these ideas about restricting speeds for games & downloading via p2p etc, this is going to make having these fast connections a bit like owning a lamborguini in the middle of a fuel shortage

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 34589395)

With all these ideas about restricting speeds for games & downloading via p2p etc, this is going to make having these fast connections a bit like owning a lamborguini in the middle of a fuel shortage

Originally Posted by LostintheNW (Post 34589724)

One thing I am wondering given the Xbox 360 and PS3 is that they actually use P2P to setup online games, my xbox live speed is **** with VM so I am wondering if the throttling they are "doing" has any effect at the moment? if so they can shove it

Originally Posted by jojo3972 (Post 34589946)

does this mean that by using xbox live its going to be counted as downloading/uploading the same as if u dl a movie etc sorry but im not very teci minded jst needed this claryfying cos we have xbox live on at night from around 8 and from about 9 the speedd dramaticaly drop from 18 megs to 3 megs if that withing an hour of xbox going on, jox

Originally Posted by nffc (Post 34589948)

Yes, anything which transfers through the modem to/from the internet counts.

Originally Posted by LostintheNW (Post 34589724)

One thing I am wondering given the Xbox 360 and PS3 is that they actually use P2P to setup online games, my xbox live speed is **** with VM so I am wondering if the throttling they are "doing" has any effect at the moment? if so they can shove it

Originally Posted by David F (Post 34590069)

An interesting note on newgroups was having a look at options for the future and found good old easynews has now got a 150 gig for $29.99 using their zipmanager and http downloads would stop the throttling surely. Still expensive but a viable option if you ask me

Originally Posted by jojo3972 (Post 34589956)

omg but surely an xbox live doesnt use that much data transfer arnt we alowed 500mb or summet a day, i did read sumwere that xbox live didnt hardly use any data transfer or watever it is it does, my partner does host games on gears of war will this make much diffrence will it use more than say if he was just joining a game if ya know wat i mean, joxx

Originally Posted by nffc (Post 34590157)

You're not understanding. I'll spell it out in n00b speak for you.

ALL transfers from ANYTHING connected to the internet COUNT TO YOUR ALLOWANCE.

If your XBL traffic takes you over the threshold it doesn't matter how much you use.

Have you measured how much it uses?

Originally Posted by nffc (Post 34590157)

You're not understanding. I'll spell it out in n00b speak for you.

ALL transfers from ANYTHING connected to the internet COUNT TO YOUR ALLOWANCE.

If your XBL traffic takes you over the threshold it doesn't matter how much you use.

Have you measured how much it uses?