Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

If a penalty was to have been issued, on an equivalent of a drive through type basis, the stewards should have been acting at the same speed that they would have done if the race was still live. In otherwords a penalty should have been issued within a couple of laps timing of the "incident" coming under investigation. Effectively the revised finishing postions would then have been known by the time the podium presentations were happenning. It seems just wrong that it can be announced a couple of hours later since drive throughs are an instant type of penalty.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

To quote Niki Lauda, who possibly knows a little more about F1 than anyone here.

"It is the worst decision the F1 authorities have EVER made" :(

Jim.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Its a stupid rule as it happens at least once in every race, which results no penalty IF the car that took the advantage gave it back, like Hamilton did. There is no two ways about it, the stewards were wrong and are now making rules up for some.

Ive still had no answer about where it states in the rules how far behind you have to be before you can try to overtake again nor have I had an answer of how being side by side (even ahead at one point) going into the corner, then being behind the car that he was side by side off is gaining an advantage. The advantage was he got past Kimi by cutting the corner, the advantage was given back when he let Kimi back past, end off, Id go as far to say that Hamilton came of worse by letting Kimi back infron due to the fact they were side by side going into the corner.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I absolutely wholeheartedly agree.

---------- Post added at 17:52 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------

It does not. Like all F1 rules it's open to interpretation.
I think he is in a much better position for the pass in the next corner then he would have been had he not cut the chicane in the manner he did.
The stewards were obviously of the opinion that he did not fully negate the advantage gained, maybe he didn't give it up as soon and as decisively as he should.
On his acceleration after the corner it does not sound like he is lifting at all, I don't know what you think it sounds like, but to me it doesn't sound like someone letting another car through. (the second clip linked to previously).

There is obviously differences of opinions influenced by various allegiances and preconceptions floating around.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Go to the FIA website and show me where it states all F1 rules are open to interpretation. If Hamilton had stayed behind him throught he chicane, he would of been able to use the slipstream either way.

Im lost how you can think that being side by side going into a corner, then Hamilton being behind after giving up the postion can be of an advantage. If anything its a disadvantage due to the fact before the corner, they were side by side and after he was behind. With all due respect, wether it sounds like it or not, you have got to be blind if you cant see he gave the place back. If he didnt brake or didnt lift, how on earth did he end up behind Kimi?

Also try watching this - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

yep agree with everything Niki has said, the reason lewis overtook kimi so quickly was because kimi was being a lot more cautious into turn 1, just like kovaleinen did at the start and look where he ended up after turn 1 (12th or so wasnt it?)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Lewis also swapped sides of the track before he over took the hydrophobic red car. Sorry I edited in the wrong place !

Would it be possible to add a Poll to this thread such as should Lewis's race win have stood, Yes or No.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I heard Niki Lauda's comments on the radio earlier today & agree that if anyone's opinion is credible, bearing in mind he used to drive for Ferrari, then he is very high on the list.

He also said that he thought this kind of thing would put people off wanting to watch F1 racing - and I have to agree with that, too...

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

The full interview.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7604776.stm

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70443

that kinda makes it worse, you have the race controllers saying it is fine, the people who understand racing etc and then the stewards who clearly have no clue whats going on disagreeing and ruining the sport.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

So now we know - everyones got it in for McLaren, and in particular Lewis.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/7611152.stm

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

its hard to deny he cut the chicane, what most people are complaining at is the differing level of penalties. you get massa found guilty of an unsafe release and gets a fine of about a weeks wage (or less) and then you get lewis in a grey area of handing a place back. If 2 cars can drive over 150 miles (40x4.3m lap) and be separated by <5s, and then the slower car close that gap over 8 miles, its clear the car behind will pass and be out of site in the next 2 or 3 laps.

Some people are mentioning kimi overtaking lewis under yellow flags after rosberg's spin. To me that was a fair pass because lewis left the track and you cant expect kimi to do something he wouldnt have done had lewis not been around. Similarly, lewis cant be expected to brake a lot earlier and have his pace dictated by a slower car just for skipping half of a chicane

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

The appeal is set for the 22nd Sept

Anyway it looks like another wet qualifying at Monza :) I wonder if the ferraris will be equiped with water wings??? ;)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

At least the weather is one thing the FIA can't fix(yet).:)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Big Cogratulations to Vettel on his and Torro Rosso's first win (and podium). He drove an absolutely perfect race under the circumstances.

Over all an exciting race with most people respecting the other drivers around them and providing some good action.

Some dodgy moves none the less about, notably 2 from Lewis, where he pushed two drivers off the track, Glock and Webber. Specifically the one on Webber, which even the guys on 'The ITV Hamilton Show' baulked at.That one was frankly dangerous, disrespectful and absolutely unnecessary.
As it wasn't looked at at the time he shouldn't receive any penalties effecting this race, but should at least get a severe ticking off or a fine.
We will have to wait to see if Webber complains about it, I can see this one being taken up at the drivers meeting.
That sort of driving certainly is not going to endear him to the other drivers and fans alike, and if he's not careful he will soon start to loose respect within the paddock.

---------- Post added at 15:59 ---------- Previous post was at 15:53 ----------

British Media support for Hamilton reaches a new level according the Times who unilaterally declares him as the winner of the Italian GP :D

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Im getting sick of so called F1 'fans/experts/rules' trying to ruin the sport. Its called racing, he was defending his position and moved over to the left to block webber from getting past, while also just about leaving him enough gap. Lets not take the fun out of the sport please.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I thought Martin Brundles's 'tongue in cheek' comments about Vettel bringing F1 drivers into disrepute by answering questions during interviews, shaking peoples hands, smiling & having a sense of humour were hilarious. :)

Vettel had a great weekend to get on pole & win in such conditions & deserves all the congratulations coming his way.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Quite an exciting race all round. Did anyone else see the Toyota mechanic seated at the front of their garage, when Lewis went past Trulli in a very aggressive move he made a hand gesture that suggested he thought Hamilton was a Banker, at least I think he meant that.:D

Jim.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Yep - and have to agree with you - Don't think the mechanic was too impressed:)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

And Ferrari get a gold medal for the 100M sprint down the pit lane!!!!

For those not watching this please watch it later :D

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Hilarious!

I wonder how the FIA are going to put the blame on McLaren for this!

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I'm sure McLaren were there at the time, therefore it must be their fault. I'm guessing Hamilton will have to give back any places that he gained as a result of the incident.....

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

F1 is getting ridiculous. Ferrari have a poo system of releasing their cars from the pit lane, which results in fuel hose still attached to the car, fire could errupt anywhere, knocking down team mates in the process, while getting released into the path of another car. They get a drive through penelty. Someone crashes which causes a safety car which in turn closes the pin lane and people get a stop go penalty for having to refuel while its closed, through no fault of their own.

Seriously how is this fair. Sort it out FIA.

The red of that Ferrari looks gorgeous under lights.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I was quite relieved when Massa was penalised for the 'unsafe release', although it is a shame for him, personally, as he didn't do anything wrong. It could have been a lot worse if Sutil hadn't managed to avoid him..

I also agree with the poster who questioned the penalty for an unsafe action being more lenient than refuelling while the pits were closed due to the safety car....

I've seen a couple of comments about Alonso which gave food for thought - one that he cut a chicane at the start & gained an advantage & another which suggested Piquet drove into the wall at just the right time because he was following team orders ... :LOL:

I thought the track was a disgrace, though - notwithstanding the bumps & dodgy kerbs, do we really need yet another circuit on which it is so difficult to overtake?

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I wet myself laughing over that (not at the crew injury thou) and Kimis oops as well.

Best of all McLaren lead both titles.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

not only that, but imagine if this race was where there was a few pit lane fires due to the heat of the cars, and sutil was a tenth of two further down the pit lane, right in the firing line of the fuel that was thrown out the other end of the hose

i think the thinking behind a stop-go penalty for pitting when it is closed is because you gain a free pit stop so you are then forced to take another "pit stop" which last around 10s.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I did think that at the time, although to be fair the design of the fuelling rig minimised the amount of fuel that was spilled.


Good point, however I'd have thought that under the safety car that advantage isn't so great if it leads them round for more than only a few laps - and is much less than the effect of a 'stop and go' when everyone else is at full racing speed?

I think they need to look at changing this aspect of the rules, personally :)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Does anyone else think that if there wasn't that crash which caused Ferrari to mess up it would have been a very, very boring race. There was probably just one place that you could get close enough to overtake without causing an accident. Whats the point in having a race at all if thats the case? I bet the orgainsers were very relieved when there was that crash as if that didn't happen nothing would have happened. If this new track is a sign of things to come F1 is going to become extremely boring.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

That's the major problem with street circuits, too narrow with too many unforgiving walls to attempt a risky overtake that might just see you run a bit wide on other tracks...

But the risks of the crash does add another dimension to the season and there nothing like a street circuit in the rain ;)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

+1 :tu:

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Ferrari boss more mad at the track, than the cock up in the pits!! What a pratt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/7644042.stm

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

While I agree he is trying to divert attention away from their cock up in the pits, I totally agree with his comments about the track, it is too narrow, too bumpy & too difficult to overtake....

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

:nutter:

It's a street track, wtf do they expect! Only complaint I had was the pq was a bit on the poor side even for ITV. I agree with Ron that it probably will rain with potential sillies in the last 3 races.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

in which case imo there are too many 'street' tracks on the calendar - it is motor racing, shouldn't it happen on a motor racing circuit???

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I don't have a problem with them. Imho there are far too many modern dull circuits like magny cours, the crippled nurburgring, istanbul, bahrain etc etc.

If it were me I'd bring back Long Beach! CART and other disciplines have a mix of streetish circuits and F1 has in the past. We're just getting spoilt silly by these dull circuits :shocked:!

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Sad day for F1 the Canadian Grand Prix has been dropped from the 2009
season :( same realy this is one of my favorite races

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/7657014.stm

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

There's far too much controversy in F1 at the moment. It's taking over the actual races.

At least BBC are taking over the coverage next year, which means we wont get a break every 10-15 mins all throughout the race.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

All we need to do now is to bring back the correct theme tune (Fleetwood Macs "The Chain" and then bring Murray out of retirement.... :)

Anyone remember his commentary at the end of the 1986 Australian Grand Prix :)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Unfortunately, I'm too young to remember such details! (Considering I was born in 1987!)

I will miss James Allen though. He occasionally gets things wrong, but he's enthusiastic and experienced. How ever, I wont miss Martin Brundle...because I don't like him.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Last few laps of the Australian GP which was the last race of the season, Mansell needed 3rd place or better to win the championship...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZNxo7Zt6d8

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Fleetwood Mac - Yes!
Murray Walker - nah, you're ok
:)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Hamilton's on pole in Japn, Massa's fifth(lol!), only problem is Kimi, he qualified in second.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I'm sure the FIA will find a way to help Ferrari

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I don't like conspiracy therories, but reluctantly I agree.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Yet again Ferrari cheat, Massa takes him out.

I almost said this would happen.

FIA will do stuff all.

I've lost my faith and interest in F1

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Alonso ,will have to watch his back now, Ferrari international assistance wont like another player stepping up ,it could get difficult nobbling two teams, its getting like a bad soap opera :td:

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I totaly agree with you they have even given Massa another place, whats that about.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

because bourdais didn't drive off the track to allow massa past? also apparently you can overtake by driving off the track now too :dunce:

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

i have watched replay after replay ,and all i can say is it was obviously orchestrated to aid Ferrari ,the rules no longer exist for some ,how the hell did bourdais cop the blame for that:td::mad:

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

:clap:
I have been an F1 fan for many years and I really despair at the so called rules and regs also the blatant favouritism shown to a certain team, I am really fed up with the whole circus at the moment :(

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I bet within coming weeks the rule makers, judges and such will take receipt of brand new Ferrari's.

FIA might as well give the drivers constructors titles to Ferrari as there will be some excuse to penalise McLaren and rob them.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I thought that was shocking today. A complete disgrace.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I think I'm going to watch the replay, later, before coming to any final decisions about todays race.

So far, having got up early this morning to watch it live I am of the opinion that

- Hamilton did force Raikkonen wide at the start but, apparently, flat spotted his tyres down to the canvas & would have had to pit for new tyres whether Massa biffed him later, or not - no overall advantage gained, no need for a penalty.

- Massa lost control & biffed Hamilton off on the next lap - penalty justified.

- Bourdais did nothing more than hold his line coming out of the pits, which he was entitled to do as it was for position - penalty not justified.

Hamilton behaved like a rookie, in my opinion, but the drive through probably made little difference to his ultimate race position - however the extra point Massa gained from the stewards decision regarding the Bourdais incident was unjustified, I thought, & it is no wonder people are talking about a Ferrari bias.

I wonder if I'll think differently after the replays?

<edit> Ok I watched the Bourdais/ Massa 'incident' again & in my opinion Massa misjudged the manoeuvre & all Bourdais did was hold his line - I fail to see how it could be judged against Bourdais, so the penalty awarded against him was not justified. The fact the decision gained Massa a championship point makes it even more questionable ?

I've had enough of this sorry excuse for a 'sport' & won't be watching, any more ...

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

My opinion. A good race but sickening politicisation of the sport.

The start my opinion is all 3 were to blame. Kimi squeezed Hamilton and if you look at his line and speed and ignore him not locking up I don't think Kimi would have made the corner and is just pointing the finger at hamilton. Kovalainen actually blocked Kimi which was just as bad as whatever Hamilton was supposed to have done. Interestingly Massa seemed to see it coming a mile off and took a completely different line through the corner to the other 3. In anycase even if Hamilton was to blame I'm against these silly petty engineering of results by the stewards. People got the start wrong. So what? It meant we had a fight between Alonso, Kubica, etc. That's life.

Massa and Hamilton. I wouldn't ordinarily advocate penalising someone, however as ferrari have made the most dubious of political appeals on chicanes I think as he didn't bother to take the corner and didn't yield any places to anybody Massa should have got not a drive throught but a stop and go. For taking Hamilton down he gets DSQed. If it be proved ala 1994 and 1997, bye bye Massa, you're written out of history.

Massa and Bourdais, could see this fake outrage coming a mile off. Bourdais did nothing wrong. Just political meddling. Massa had various dodgy moves and tried to claw the places back. On the day he just wasn't fast enough. Why ferrari worry that much I don't know. It's traditional for McLaren to mess up near the end of the season so why the need for all the blatent cheating from Massa and his cronies I don't know.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

The robbed Massa with one hand & gave with the other

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

They had to really though, 5pts is a lot better than 6pts. Massa would likely win in a tie break.

In anycase like I said for the fooling around on the grass and not yielding he should have been given the extra 10 seconds. I think he should have been DSQed for blatent championship cheating.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,189...327413,00.html

This makes interesting reading.........

Lewis has only himself to blame for Sundays outcome, he could afford to let KR get in front from the start.

I still think max moseley has something to do with the stewards decisions.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

cant wait for tomorrow's instalment of how can the FIA help Ferrari:(

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

They will probably find the plank under his car is "affencive". :angel:

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Just got up, kettles on, TV's on.. Let's hope that Lewis can put all this behind him, perhaps take Massa off the track*, get 10 points for himself and wrap up the championship :)

*not one to wish bad on someone but Massa needs taking down a peg or two

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Morning Kymmy, baisically everything that you've said.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

morning people , come on Lewis , watching the bad decisions now , just makes me even more annoyed :(

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Just seen the compilation stewarding decisions. I really can't see how they explain the inconsistencies.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Personally I'd like to see all the teams tell the FIA to go take a run and jump and then form thier own championship with current and ex-drivers in control

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Hamilton's won!

But.........what are the stewards going to do, give Hamiton a penalty therefore promoting Masa to 1st, or just find a reason to disqualify Hamilton.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

hhmmm, is this thread turning into a load of cynics ;)

In the end the race was textbook, perfect drive by Lewis, it's a shame that they still allow teams to back down one driver to allow another to win :( even though it is done under the table ..

Anyway a good win, Lewis is 7 points up and just needs a good 5th place or above in Brazil to win :)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

well that was embarrassing,kimi did all but drive in reverse to aid massa ,where the hell is the rule book now..............................

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

There's nothing wrong in doing that, if Hamilton and Kovalainen were in the same position i'm sure you wouldn't have said anything on the matter ;)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

i like f1 racing , i think all drivers should drive to win ,or the whole thing becomes pointless and is no longer racing , the amount of time it took massa to" pass" was a farce, and the look on kimi's face imo reflected that.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

OK guys 6 hours left, please show your support for Lewis hopefully the next F1 Champion :)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I hope for a good race. I don't particularly dislike Massa but there has been that much cheating by him and his supporters it's really put me off the guy. Hopefully they'll be none of the 1990, 1994, 1997, 2008 antics.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I've got every thing crossed for Lewis hope he takes the title ,i am also sick of the blatant help given to Ferrari ,so lets keep this race real .

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Lewis must watch out for Alonso who is behind him and can have a "brake" problem.

The only thing that can stop Lewis is his car.

---------- Post added at 13:53 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------

Oh and i almost forgot Ferrari International Assistance

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Good luck to Hamilton :tu:

And let's not forget, David Coulthard, who drives his final race today.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Come on DC help the Brit to win

---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:37 ----------

If you plugged me in to a stress machine, it would up as a smouldering heap.

This is gonna be a stressful 1-1/2 hour.

I do NOT trust Ferrari or Alonso at all.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Things could get interesting now :)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Yep, start delayed (I think 12 minutes) due to a major shower.. If there's one thing I do know is that Massa hates the rain ;)

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Come on Hamilton! Will be awful if the other drivers play dirty :|

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:13 ----------

NNNOOOOOOOOOO DC's out

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Al the best to DC on his retirement...makes me now wonder if BBC will grab him as a commentator for next year

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Poxy adverts.

Thank god its ITV's last race.

Bring on the BBC and "The Chain"

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I know others wont but BBC without Murray isn;t the same...But yes I think adverts during a race is pathetic

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

They have along with Eddie Jordan, and I believe Brundle

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Boy am I glad it's going back to BBC, Murray or no Murray.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

LH upto 5th

and I have no finger nails

---------- Post added at 17:47 ---------- Previous post was at 17:39 ----------

Vettel is hunting down Massa

---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:47 ----------

LH upto 4th (vettel in pits, with a Ferrari engine)

Alonso will hold station behind Massa, as he want to race for Ferrari.

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

I think LH should keep a very close eye on Raikkonen

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Especially if LH is in front as KR will have "dodgy" brakes

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

"could rain in 10 minutes" ..... Here we go again...

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Its raining

---------- Post added at 18:42 ---------- Previous post was at 18:36 ----------

LH in pits and PM in a lap later

No fingers left only bloody stumps

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

NO!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

****

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Yyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeesssss

---------- Post added at 18:48 ---------- Previous post was at 18:48 ----------

Call me an ambulance

---------- Post added at 18:49 ---------- Previous post was at 18:48 ----------

The youngest F1 driver i history

Bloody Brazillians booing

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Ferrari were celebrating hahahahahahahaha :D :D

Well done Lewis!!!!!!!!

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Congrats to Lewis on being the youngest world champion


BUT!!!

what the hell happened to Glock????

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

What a last lap

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

god im shaking, what a nail biter!!!!

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Sports Peronality of the Year

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

Let us hope there are no last minute technicalities to upset the applecart...:erm:

And isn't the Brazilian anthem rather boring

Re: Formula 1 2008 Season
 

He didn't change to wet tyres when everyone else did at the end