Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

You were the one using perjorative terms like 'it disgusts me' ... hence my conclusion that you are 'bothered' by the Bishop. I'm not bothered by you - I just see you being misinformed on a subject I care dearly about, and seeing as this is a discussion forum it seems appropriate to discuss.

As for whether you need an RE lesson - forgive me, but I think you do. You feel persecuted, and you're pointing a finger of blame. If you're going to blame someone, or an organisation, for something I think you have some sort of responsibility to understand what you're saying.

And as for whether you're equal - of course you're equal. Everyone is equal under God. IMO of course. :)

---------- Post added at 14:23 ---------- Previous post was at 14:22 ----------

Smart alec :bsmack: :p:

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Excellent post (imho)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

It's a genuine question :shrug:

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

To be fair to sssshhhh (and my apologies if I am defending someone who doesn't want me to defend them), sssshhhh didn't say she was "trying to make your(her)self good enough by doing good things" - she just described how she lived her life; and it's probably the fact that the "ramblings of an out-of-touch old religious bigot" are also the statements from a senior member of the Church of England, and as such, taken seriously by some, if not a large number, of his church-members.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

She said she had lived a good life, so was annoyed when someone suggested that she had not (and that the fact she had not may have caused a flood).

If we're going to move this discussion forwards at all, we need to try to establish why the Bish said what he did. Basic Christian concepts such as what true goodness really is (and whether we can attain it) are central to the Bishop's frame of reference.

On the other hand we could just skip straight to the point where threads like this usually end up getting closed, with any and all attempts at serious analysis dropped in favour of name-calling, parodies and cliches.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Thank you :) I believe I am equal to my peers. Unfortunately many others don't. I see it in my workplace, amongst family and friends, on the Tv etc etc. And comments like the Bishops really sadden me. Whilst as you say many people will agree that he's out of touch, many will digest what he has said. And I don't just mean the sexuality issue but all his comments.

I only had a relative telling me last week that it was ok me being gay as he loved me, but he didn't agree with it as far as anyone else was concerned. I merely responded with 'thank you for giving me permission to be me' and left it at that.

---------- Post added at 14:46 ---------- Previous post was at 14:41 ----------

Oh my, I was merely responding to the comments of the bishop. I was simply pointing out that I see it as being ridiculous that someone like me could be held partly responsible for the mass flooding across the country by this idiot. I was merely pointing out that some people will take the bishops comments on board as being true. I didn't for one minute want to attack anyone's faith, or opinion. Apologies if I have offended anyone. And thank you foreverwar for trying to explain better than I can my point.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I for one am not offended. I just prefer an ongoing, two-way discussion to a quick posting of opinion.

And I'm still mad keen to point out that I don't think the Bishop was singling out 'someone like you'. His comments were aimed at society as a whole, that is, everyone. He may have used certain examples to illustrate his point but when you read what he said, his overall meaning is clear.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Chris, I have tried to be even-handed and not call anyone names all the way through this thread, as I believe it is a very complex subject with no easy answer - however, I do object strongly to gays being called "morally degraded" and "illegitimate" (which has to be a prime example of name-calling, parodies and cliches) by a senior member of the Church I attend regularly.

btw, the quote "an out-of-touch old religious bigot" was made by you in post #92 :D

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

The fact that he used homosexuality as an example of something we are being punished for would suggest that he and by extension, the christian religion, has a problem with homosexuals....

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Sorry, am I not allowed to make a quick comment when I see a post? And I don't believe he was just singling out people like me either, I obviously haven't worded my posts correctly. I picked out the issue that was most relevant to me, and gave me a platform from which to comment. Whilst I appreciate what you are saying, and take it all on board, surely I'm still allowed to voice my own opinion?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Is that not just an easy cop out? The message that he conveys is 'it is not ok to lead a life style that is not endorsed by the church', and the recent flooding is a result of such life styles. And people that lead a life style that is should be comforted by the fact that it's not directly aimed at them? Frankly, it sounds like a full frontal assault.

Incidentally, I'm still interested to hear if you think the Bishop is out of touch. I suspect you don't.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Bishops are a judgement on society if you ask me...

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I'm no expert on the Christian religion but thats the impression I'm under too. What confuses me that there is no consistency regarding homosexuals and Christianity. When I was growing up and attending a church of England school, and attending Church sermons, from what I was told, homosexuals would go to hell. Now some Christians say that homosexuality is ok is Christianity. One of my neighbours who is a regular church goer says its forbidden and they(homosexuals) will go to hell under Christianity.

In Islam homosexuals risk going to hell fullstop. There is no middle ground/blurred area regarding it, but we are told/taught that God is most merciful and can forgive you for anything, so although a homosexual is quite likely to end up in hell, this is not always the case.

I'm not saying either or both stances are right, just making the comparison and wondering how something so fundamental is so widely interpreted. Are Christians (and the churches) that say homosexuality is ok, doing so in order to make the church more accesible to a wider range of people, or even so they are not going to be accused of being politically incorrect, or is there a genuine argument in Christianity that homosexuality is permissable.

By homosexuality I am referring to 2 people of the same sex who are also involved in a sexual relationship.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

<Frankie Howerd>

Oooooohhhh!

</Frankie Howerd>

I don't see it as a cop-out because the Bible doesn't really make a distinction between homosexual and hetrosexual adultary. Sexual sin is sexual sin regardless of orientation. IMO the Bishops should have made this a lot more clear.

The Bible says nothing about homosexuality being wrong, it just puts gay sex on par with hetro adultary. Some Christians take it too far and automatically assume all gays have penetrative sex (which is not the case) therefore 'all homosexuals are condemned to hell'. This is NOT something I support or agree with by the way.

I don't know about others but I say it (I don't actually say it's 'OK' - rather it's not the evil that many people believe it to be) to counter the views of the numerous armchair experts who take a tiny amount of knowledge and perpetuate falsehoods.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Whatever you intended when you first posted, it seems to me now like you're looking for an argument. No matter how many times I re-read my post I can't see how you can take it to mean that I was allowing, or disallowing, you anything. :shrug:

Sorry, but that is such a poor parody of what the Bishop said that there's no way I'm going to validate it by using it as a platform to discuss the issue.

Suspect all you like, I'm keeping my own counsel on that point for the time being.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

No disrespect meant but I wonder if I should be more worried about what you don't say than about what you do say.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

No, I'm not looking for an argument :rolleyes: And I think it's best if i just don't post any more on this thread.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

If the Islamic world took as liberal a view of the Qu'ran as the West takes towards the Bible, things would probably be very different.

The west is extremely liberalised, the Islamic world generally far less so. The authority of the Bible has been challenged in our universities for over a century now and that ongoing challenge to its authority allows the development of liberal theology, because you can discount or explain away the passages in the Bible that are not convenient to your point of view.

That, in a nutshell, is why you see such disagreements, although please understand I am vastly over-simplifying things for the sake of brevity!

---------- Post added at 15:39 ---------- Previous post was at 15:33 ----------

I see no reason for you to worry, no matter what I say, or fail to say. I'm just another bloke on the end of a keyboard after all. ;)

I don't suppose it occurred to you that some people might like to think through issues, and do background research, before posting opinions on some things, rather than submit to the temptation to be an instant expert? I know the world of forums can conspire to demand instant comment and opinion but I don't feel constrained by that and neither should you.

Seriously, I think it would be best if you stopped trying so hard to take offence at whatever people say to you. I suspect whichever relative it was you let rip at last week might agree with that.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

By challenging the authority of the Bible are you not in danger then of challenging God's authority. The point I am trying to make is that if God is supposedly all knowing, then surely what he prescribed in the days of Jesus/Muhammed (depending on what religion you wnat to follow) would be applicable in 2007 as they were in the times of those prophets.

Because society has become liberal does this mean that the religion should change to allow for the facilitation of things which were previously forbidden. For example homosexuality is now seen as being socially acceptable, whereas a while back both society and religion were in agreement that it was wrong (or perceived to be wrong in society).

By changing religion to make it acceptable or developing it based on liberal theology, are we then not implying that God is not the the all knowing entity that we think he is, or that his original commandments only applied at the time they were made?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I guess I'm just a very quick thinker ;)

Seriously, I don't claim to be an expert, and I value the dialogue. See where others are coming from and all that. I think a lot of interesting points were raised since this morning.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I can't disagree with anything you say. And while I can outline the circumstances that allow for liberal 'Christian' theology, I certainly can't explain why they believe what they do.

I mean, in the case of many churchgoers I think it's a function of them being culturally Christian but lacking the means to challenge or think through the liberal objections to their faith, because they, or their family, have never truly owned the faith for themselves. For some it may simply be a case of needing to find external validation for the way they choose to live their lives. However I couldn't point to any individual and tell you why they believe what they do.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I used the word fairytale as there is nothing proved do i believe hans christian anderson's tales as truth because they were written in books that were very popular no i don't and yes i do see religion in that way.

My main point is that good people are good people because they choose to be not because any form of religion makes them that way. I hate religion's way of hijacking good peoples life and saying it was down to their faith as much as i hate people being judged by religion because they don't follow a religion's idea of how to live.

If this bishop has these beliefs (though how the hell he can in this day and age) his platform is his cathedral\church where he can spout as much of that sort of rubbish as he likes to an audience that is likely to be more receptive to it.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

It's actually quite a good summing up of the bishops stance (and by extension, the stance of the christian church) but since you can't counter that argument you are forced to dismiss it in that way.....

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

It appears to me (but I may be wrong) that religious people are caught in a bit of a dilemma when they try to square the circle of a God that is both loving and extremely vengeful. I suppose the way out of the dilemma is that every person can be saved if he/she chooses to do so. This does not change the fact that the alternative is not very pleasing and may not be something people are keen to admit?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Of course, the easiest answer to that dilemma is simply to acknowledge that man wasn't created in gods image but that the opposite is true. At a stroke, all the inconsistencies and dilemmas disappear.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

A master stroke to be precise :D

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Not being on this thread long enough to have read all the religious threads, I am not fully aware of the 'religious' bashing that has gone on here before I joined CF. I do think however that sometimes the religious elements here are to quick to dismiss points rasied by non religious members as being a case of 'baiting'.

I would say that the non religious (i.e non christians/muslims) do value the dialogue as Daniel says above, and sometimes they are dismissed without an argument or point of view which in my opinion can be very patronising.

But anyway, what do I know, I've only been here a while compared to the rest of you.

---------- Post added at 16:33 ---------- Previous post was at 16:25 ----------

I was under the impression that man was created with its own will, which it then used to go against god's command (i.e Adam & Eve and the apple/serpent). Surely there is no/shouldn't be a dilemma.

Do what God prescribes and you should be ok, otherwise its the fires of Hell for you, unless God forgives you.

I know that simplifies it, but is that not why religion falls apart, when people try to make simple thinks overly complicated.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Rammy, I'm surprised and disappointed that you would employ such dubious 'debating' tactics as this. :shrug:

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I speak as I find. Danielfs post was a decent summing up of the bishops statement and you did dismiss it out of hand :shrug:

---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:44 ----------

That usually ends up being the case once they realise that their stance is untenable....
imo you have been here long enough! :)
iirc, God created man....

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

And I disagree with that point. Which means, in order to reply to him, I have to explain why I think that, then what I think the Bish really was saying, then say why I agree/disagree with it.

All of which would take rather more time than I have, seeing as I am at work right now. I've spent far too much time on this thread today as it is!

As I said to Daniel earlier, I don't feel compelled to bow to the peer pressure that exists on forums to dance to the tune of the one putting questions to me. I prefer to answer in my own time, after due consideration, as fully and honestly as I can. I think I've been around here long enough for other long-term members to know that's how I operate and not to resort to misrepresenting, deliberately misconstruing, or baiting me into responding before I'm ready or able to. :)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Well, if you do find the time I would be interested to hear your thoughts. I don't know if you think I was baiting you, but to me it was just a question.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

What he said ^^^ :)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

In my opinion one of the challenges to following a religion 'properly' is how to deal with liberal developing of society. Its much easier to say that the religion you follow makes allowances for such liberalness (is that a word?) therefore avoiding contraversy and making life easier for yourself.

I think thats why muslims are seen as having such a difficult time in the West, because they do not want to allow the liberal development of society to infringe upon their religion.

Should religion be adaptive? I dont think there is room for that in the core commandments/tenants because by doing so, you would be in effect that God was wrong when he started it all.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Or is it that the people at the time's interpretation of God will/way was misinterpeted (or at best, suited to that time and place) - we have seen many examples of religions used/abused for peoples' own ends, and many of the so-called religious interpretations are often cultural biases imposed upon the religion (dietary, clothing, non-miscenegenation, etc) which then became part of the religions' ethos.

Just my thoughts, that's all.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Very well put! The fundamentalists are the true followers of the faith...

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Any body got an ark???

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Its important that the word fundamentalist is not linked or used in tangent with terrorists. I believe you can be a fundamental follower of religion without having to resort to blowing people up.

I have noticed that recently muslim terrorists have been labeled 'extremists' whereas a few years back they were fundamentals.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Though it would appear that the more fundamental a follower is, the more likely they are to 'go off the deep end'.....killing doctors who carry out abortions, not allowing their kids to have transfusions, burning widows, flying planes into buildings, genitally mutilating women......

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Not at all - all you're doing is insisting on a definition of 'fundamental' other than the one SLM is offering.

If the fundamental tenets of a religion are non-violent - as Christianity is - then it is not, and can never be, fundamentalist behaviour to attack or kill doctors who perform abortions. It is extremist behaviour, but it is not fundamentalist.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I agree with SLM's definition....

But surely, in order to be an extremist you have to be a fundamentalist first and foremost?
Can you get a religious extremist who isn't a fundamentalist?:scratch:

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Good points there Chris :tu:
Agreed. In some cases, religious fundamentalism can lead to extremism :tu:
And by that token, extremism can only come from religious fundamentalism (which can only come from a religion)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Isn't the problem with all religions though (well the mainstream ones) that their teachings can be interpretted pretty much how you want hence the way some use them for justification of the most terrible atrocities. I think it is time that religions stopped continuely beating the "we are peaceful" drum and started to modernise their texts\teachings to fit into the modern world as the more advanced we seem to become in some areas the more misinterpretated religion seems to be becoming.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

The problem with that idea is (as SLM said), that would be an acknowledgement that god (or the religion) was wrong for the last one or two thousand years.....:disturbd:

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Chris,

"Basic" "non-violent" teachings of Christ aside

Luke 19:27 states

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay before me.

Anyone electing to follow that tenet of fundamentalism (ie. straight from the horse's mouth) could hardly be described as anything but a violent fundamentalist.

I appreciate, I think, where you're coming from but I think a deeper analysis of fundamentalism beyond the written word / actions is what is required.

Ultimately fundamentalists / extremists almost invariably have religious leanings.

Coincidence?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Well, it didn't take long did it?
Apparently discussing the opinions of a Bishop is bashing religion, I dunno, I'm still confused by that one, especially as the accusation from the usual suspects rarely turns up in threads regarding Islamic loonies.

Religion affects me in a detrimental way every single week.
Is that bashing religion or is that stating a fact?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Thank you .... however on your point about where extremism can come from, Karl Marx, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao and the Maoist rebels of Nepal and many other countries all say you might be wrong. ;)

---------- Post added at 16:31 ---------- Previous post was at 16:29 ----------

If you know the Bible well enough to pick a verse out of the air like that, I'm surprised you're unable to distinguish between passages devoted to instructing disciples for daily life, and passages that talk about a final punishment that is, incidentally, to be meted out by God, not by his followers.

Unless you are very well aware of that distinction and are trying to make mischief? Shurley not ... :scratch:

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Extremism can manifest itself from whatever you believe in strongly enough, be it religion or say, Vogue and other fashion magazines.

For example there are some women who fundamentally believe that size 0 is the best thing since slice bread, and resort to the extreme behaviour of puking up their meals to keep to a size zero.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

The name Graham Dow seems familiar. :scratch:

According to the Grauniad, this is the same Graham Dow who, in a 1991 document entitled Explaining Deliverance, insisted that clear signs of satanic possession include inappropriate laughter, inexplicable knowledge, a false smile, Scottish ancestry, relatives who have been miners and the habitual choice of black for dress or car colour.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Describes Tony Bliar to me...

---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

Does that make it acceptable then?

Also, would an extremist realise that god is supposed to do the slaying personally, rather than use his followers to do his bidding as he has reportedly used them to do so before?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I'm not attempting to "make mischief" as you put it.

I was merely using this as an analogy as to how violence on the part of fundamentalists can be arrived at, and indeed encouraged, by religious teachings.

Let's just assume I don't know the bible at all and I'm asking you, notwithstanding the fact that the instruction itself is clear - irrespective of the frequency of the act or the party on whose behalf any such actions are instructed to be carried out on - what part of Jesus's "non-violent" preachings that particular instruction fits.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Ah yes, the argument that you are attempting now is the same one smokers use when they say "what about the fumes from cars then?".
The point is that we are discussing religious extremism arising from religious fundamentalism in this thread......
...and don't even get me started on communism and extremism....:D

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I'm not gonna deny it...... the progression on the ist scale would go from fundamentalist to extremist. I think there are certain followers of all religions who feel that they need to go a bit further to attain that higher level in their relationship with God.

Unfortunately with some muslims it has resorted to acts of terrorism in the UK. But taking terrorism aside, I have many friends who spend hours every night reciting prayers, in some meditation hypnotic trait (they are sufis). I find this level of devotion/prayer a bit extreme, but they believe it brings them closer to God. It is also not a fundamental part of the religion according to the majority of muslims I know. What I am trying to say is that extreme behaviour does manifest from a fundamental believe of your religion, but extreme behaviour does not have to resort in violence, and it definately does not mean its right.

If you are trying to say that without religion we wouldn't have religious terrorists then I have no argument against that. All I am trying to say is that you cannot blame the principles/teachings of the religion for the violence, but you could blame the interpretation of it.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Jesus instructed his disciples at all times to act in a non-violent manner. He used sayings such as 'turn the other cheek' to show that far from taking revenge on someone who wrongs you, you should be quite prepared to allow them to wrong you again.

Jesus assures his disciples that anybody who treats them in such a way, and who goes to their death without having sought forgiveness from God for his deeds, will indeed face vengeance - but from God, not from any person.

A common device used by Jesus when teaching was the parable - a simple story in which familiar situations and character types are used in order to illustrate a greater point. The verse you quoted was from a parable, in fact it was from the end of a parable, where Jesus is teaching about the final punishment suffered by those who have never asked God's forgiveness. The character vowing to put someone to death represents God sitting on his throne of judgement. The actions of the character are not offered as a pattern for disciples to follow in their earthly life. For it to be taken as an instruction of how disciples are to behave, it would have to be taken out of its context to such an outrageous extent that I doubt even the most fervently deluded cult would try it.

Yes, we are discussing religious extremism, but the fact that that's what we're discussing doesn't give you the right to assert that extremism can only come from religious fundamentalism. Unless what you actually meant was, religious extremism can only come from religious fundamentalism, and I'd have said that was a truism - subject, of course, to the understanding I believe we've reached on the meaning and application of the word 'fundamentalism'.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I didn't assert that religion is the only way to extremism. I have been careful to speak of religious fundamentalism leading to religious extremism....If I have given any other impression then I apologise :)
I am simply trying to make the point that the further one immerses him/herself into religion, the closer one follows the scriptures, the more likely one is to become extreme in ones beliefs and actions.....

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Chris, if it's a parable and God is omnipotent then why the specific reference to "bring hither"?

Surely God could just smite his vengance on them all at will, irrespective of their location (be that in this or the next world)?

It, and likeminded ideologies, have been taken outrageously out of context many times in history. It does not, however, excuse the instigator - irrespective of his / her intentions.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Of course you can blame the principles/teachings, because the interpretations stem directly from those principles and teachings.
And thus by extension, you can (in some cases) blame the religion itself....because that is where the teachings, principles and interpretations ultimately spring from......

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Because it's a parable. Parables reduce big, profound theology to relatively simple stories. That's their purpose. The characters and situations in them represent other things to whatever extent is necessary to make the point. They are not, however, intended to be taken as complex allegory. That would defeat the point.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

So say you.....others probably disagree and put a different slant on them.....who is to say who is correct?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Does that make it acceptable then?

Also, would an extremist realise that god is supposed to do the slaying personally, rather than use his followers to do his bidding as he has reportedly used them to do so before?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I really must start to do what my grandfather always told me to do..stay out of religious argu...discussions because they go nowhere very very fast.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

they usually turn into a war

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

:rofl: Very droll :D

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

well its true then both gods get to mightily smitily millions of people and every ones happy;)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Exactly!

Time to unsubscribe on that note.;)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I think you're shifting onto slightly new ground there. Are you saying that there comes a point where fundamentalism and extremism are essentially the same thing?

---------- Post added at 22:58 ---------- Previous post was at 22:47 ----------

Thank you for your use of 'probably'. In fact, if you read the Gospels and become familiar with them, and especially with Jesus' style of teaching, it is blindingly obvious when he's using parables and when he's not. Even on the occasions when the text doesn't say, "and Jesus gave this parable...", which it most often does.

Jesus' teaching was mostly confined to certain basic, dare I say fundamental themes, with the more complex theology left to the apostles to bring afterwards. Again, if you allow yourself to become familiar with the entirety of the gospels these themes become clear enough because Jesus' teaching is consistent. That guards against the 'different slants' you talk about.

It doesn't make them impossible to fall into, but it certainly guards against them. Bear in mind that there is overwhelming agreement, even between Protestant, Catholic and Eastern Christian movements, about the basics of the Christian message and what is necessary for a person to be 'saved'. If it were as easy as you seem to believe for different, competing teachings to arise, then this would not be the case.

Sorry, but I'm not indulging your obsession with the theoretical wrath of a god you don't believe in this evening. We've been round in circles on that point many times already. ;) Besides, I've already touched on the subject of national judgement and punishment earlier in this thread.
I think you would have to find an extremist and ask him. :)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

You brought it up Chris, mentioning that it was wrong to attribute that passage to what followers should do because it was reserved for your god to perform.
However, fundementalists, and even people like yourself are versed enough on the bible to know that it states that on several occasions your god used followers to enforce his wrath.

As for being concerned over the plans and instructions given by a deity which I don't believe in, I ask you this; Do you believe Allah exists?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Yep i agree time to unsubscribe from this thread as well it is like the M$ and Apple rants you can never have a debate as there is always some entrenched belief of being right.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Seriously Chris, what alternative "characters and situations" representative of "other things" could Jesus possibly have been referring to in that particular parable?

That particular parable is anything but a complex allegory - quite simply Jesus states that anyone who does not acknowledge him as their ruler should be brought to him (at whatever place he was at that time) and slain.

Black and white, advocating violence and slaughter - no complex allegory either used nor required.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I'm not shifting onto new ground. I have been saying all along that religious fundamentalism can lead to religious extremism. You cannot exhibit extremism without first being a fundamentalist ( I believe) and at that point you are both...
The 'good' bishop is heading towards that end of the scale....imo

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I'm not trying to make out that it is complex allegory. If you re-read what I posted, you will see that I am saying that parables are not complex allegory because that would defeat their purpose.

The parable has a very simple meaning, and it is this:

The place Jesus is 'at the time' the parable speaks of, as you put it, is enthroned as king at the end of the age.

The passage begins in verse 11 by saying Jesus told the parable because people thought he was going to Jerusalem to set up his kingdom right there and then. Jesus, in verse 12, makes clear that these things are to take place after he has gone away and come back again.

At that point - after Jesus has gone away and come back again - there is judgement and banishment from God's presence in store for those who don't belong to him. In the parable this is depicted as being put to death before a king.

There really is nothing contentious about it. The fact that there will be judgement at the end of the age in no way affects the call for Jesus disciples here and now to be peaceful and non-violent.

---------- Post added at 09:44 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------

I wonder whether you consider your own beliefs to be entrenched?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

The bishop fundamentally believes that God brings 'punishment' to ill-doers and to people who disregard his commandments. There are accounts in both the Bible and the Koran of this happening. So I think all he is doing is re-iterating/preaching what he (and as have countless of people ) read in the Bible, and what he believes in. I do not thing that is extreme. Im sure it happens in Churches all the time as it does in Mosques over the world.

Now in this instance his audience has been Christians and non christians alike, and some non CHristians have taken offence. I can see the point that both Russ & Chris have made, if you don't believe in it why would you get upset by it. Yes the bishop is blaming gays for the floods but he's reciting his fundamental belives. He's not saying that gays should be shot/killed/stoned etc etc etc. All he is saying is that this is what the Bible says. Should we ban the bible? or Just ban people from reciting it in public (which Im sure would contradict how Jesus wanted Christianity to spread).

If you take a wander down Croydon on a saturday you will sometimes see a couple of tables put up where young muslim men selling books based on verses/passages from the Koran. Read a few of these and there will be articles on the punishment in the hereafter for gays/adulterors/non belivers of God/Idol worshippers etc etc. A lot will also be citing 100s of natural distasters as 'God's punishment'. Most people walk straight past because they don't believe in it. They simply see it as a trio of nutters preaching some religion that has nothing to do with them so they dont bother getting upset. The only people that take stock of whats said is muslims.

All I'm trying to say is that if you dont believe in it I dont see any need to get upset by it. Its not like people in liberal Britain will suddenly make homosexuality illegal, or start to attack or blame homosexuals/non believers for natural calamities. We're not living in the Dark Ages are we? It's more likely that the Church will lose some more credibility amongst the 'non-believers' which will work against it in the long run. (This problem of spreading religion without losing credibility also occurs in Islam)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I don't believe in Allah, but I still get upset when people kill others in his name.
I don't believe in god, but I still get upset when people say they believe his slaughtering of non-christians is good.

Am I wrong to get upset at the call from certain muslims to murder people in the west?
Should I just shrug my shoulders when I think of those who died in the 9/11 attacks and say "oh well, never mind, it's not like I believe allah exists"

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Is that what I said, its definately not how i meant to come across as saying...... The line you quoted is embedded in a paragraph relating to what the bishop said. He has not advocated killing of anyone, my point being what he's said will not climax in this happening. He's not being extremist either, in my opinion.

Now I believe in Allah/God and I was upset at 9/11 and the tube bombings and Madrid and Bali and I will continue to get upset at future such acts. I am just trying to say that in the context of whats been said (by the Bishop) I dont think its such a big deal.

Now if he said that we should go and kill all gays just incase the next flood wipes us all out, then thats a bit different, and my stance would be different. I am trying to say that we shouldn't label all fundamental followers of religion as extremists.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Unfortunately, religious extremists don't need to be told directly to kill or even just be prejudice against others, they just need someone in religious authority to meet them half way.
Say "giving gays more rights has caused the flooding" is a red flag to a bull to give nutters the justification to discriminate against gays for instance (and to the extreme, harm homosexuals in the name of their religion).

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I do understand what you're saying. Maybe he thought that there aren't any christian nutters in the UK that would go out killing gays based on his religion's viewpoint.

The problem then becomes what do you preach from the Bible? only that which is deemed to be politically correct and non offensive to certain groups. This in turn leads us back full circle, where if that becomes the case then we are admitting that religion is wrong/not applicable.

This argument has been raging on for centuries, I dont think we will get any answers from the Cable Forum.... do you?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Throughout society a minority of irresponsible people have always caused activities to be curtailed to the detriment of the majority who participate.
Apply the same rules to religions with unacceptable content.
If this upsets a deity, then so be it.
Is it worth worshiping a deity who sanctions discrimination and murder?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Seeing as our legal system recognises the possibility of both lawful and unlawful killing, I think it's fair to ask in what way you believe the killing of a person by God to be 'unlawful' ... murder, of course, being unlawful killing rather than simply the act of taking another life.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

A level headed piont of view, one that the worlds muslims could perhaps take on board in their dealings with faiths other than their own :D
It's all very well saying not to get upset by someones misguided ramblings but unfortunately that bishop has influence over the thoughts and possibly deeds of many christians.
This is even more worrying when you consider the massively greater influence that muslim religious leaders seem to have have over the thoughts and deeds of their flocks...
Despite my deep distrust of religion I feel that it can be a force for the good if applied moderately. Blaming a part of our population for the floods is not however moderate....I'm surprise that he hasn't been cautioned by the police (but then i suppose he didn't call a police horse 'gay') :disturbd:

---------- Post added at 13:24 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------

And there is the central problem of religion these days (apart from circular arguments to 'prove' the existence of god and it's pathetic attempts at creationism)
It is increasingly being demonstrated to be a negative force in the world.
Take various pronouncements on condoms, female circumcision, burning widows, anti gay views, masturbation, freedom of women, suppression of other religions and destruction of historical works of art.
Historically, religion has been a major damper on scientific discovery. From anatomy to medicine to physics to astronomy; religion has proven itself to be a massive negative force....

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

The lawful status of a death doesn't come into it, it's the morality.
For instance, it's been lawful to kill a Welshman inside the limits of certain cities after sunset with a longbow, but it doesn't make such a killing moral.
It also doesn't have to be a death, using religion to justify prejudice against others is a more widespread issue.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

it would be possibly fair to say that if god did cause the floods then he probably did mudrer a few people. The bishop said as much when he stated that the problem with "environmental judgment is that it is indiscriminate".
Nice deity :erm:

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Beg your pardon, but that's plain nonsense. Have a read of this:

(emphasis mine)

That's from an introduction to a research paper called 'The Role of Religion in Scientific Creativity', published by the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion at St Edmund's College, Cambridge.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

So because many scientists are religious, then religion has played no detremental part in scientific development?
So all those objections to medical investigations using teachings learnt from Muslims was just a misunderstanding?
The papal decree forbidding the speculation and investigation before the big bang just never happened?
Galileo wasn't really put under house arrest?
There was really no religious objection to the idea that we aren't at the centre of the univese then?
Herbalists weren't burned as witches?
Cor. It's like an episode of Dallas, all a dream.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Maybe I missed a post, but how exactly is that relevant ? - Are the Faraday Institute trying to imply that had these 'scientists' not held such beliefs then they wouldn't have made any scientific discoveries ?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I think xaccers and Paul answered competently :)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

The full research isn't online - you have to buy it. So, I can't outline the entirety of what they are saying. However from other occasions I've heard this said, the basic thrust of it is, many of the great scientists in our history were motivated by their religious conviction. They wanted to explore and explain the universe because of their faith, not in spite of it, and belived that they were honouring God in discovering how he made the universe tick and being in awe of him for it.

I don't believe anyone is saying Faraday wouldn't have made any discoveries had he not been religious. However your question misunderstands the point that Ramrod made and my reply to it. Ramrod suggested that religion has been a dampener on scientific discovery, whereas it can be shown that many scientists were motivated to make scientific discovery because of their religion.

As a sweeping generalisation, his claim is pretty easy to shoot down.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

erm....in the olden days, everyone had to profess religious faith or they were very likely to find themselves being burned to death......because religion is oh so very tolerant of unbelievers :disturbd:
It's a bit like saying breathing is responsible for scientific invention because all the scientists who have ever lived have breathed.....

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I get the feeling you're not in the mood for a calm and rational exchange of ideas today.

Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

Doesn't really match up with the period of scientific discovery in which Faraday and others were working. And your parallel with breathing ... sorry, but that's just silly.

I don't really have time to spend the afternoon Googling for pages that demonstrate you're simply deploying assumptions and prejudices in place of reasoned argument, much as it's fun.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

lol......
So religion isn't trying to subvert the theory of evolution as we speak?
Scientific basis for the age of the earth....recognised by fundamentalists? Nope!
Galileo was threatened with death unless he recanted....
Early anatomical study (and hence the progress of medicine) was banned (on pain of burning.......I wonder how many millions have died because of delayed discoveries on that front?
The church persisted in believing that the earth was the center of the universe for a millenium.....setting back astronomy and associated sciences.
Darwins ideas were (and still are)rubbished because god created man, not evolution....
......against this you put the statement that many scientists were religious :D

I agree, however, that religion was the impertus behind much study but once the study came up with conclusions that religion didn't like then that study and it's conclusions was surpressed.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

None of these statements - many of which I disagree with, to varying degrees - support the basic, wide-ranging generalisation you made earlier, namely:

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Interested parties can access the Faraday papers via this link.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

None of them? Are you sure?! :confused: Seems to me that they do support my assertion....:shrug:

edit......anyway, sorry for making a comment that has dragged us so far off topic :nworthy:

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

oh joy your still at it

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Sorry Chris but if your saying religion has never held back science well i don't know what planet your on hell even the local catholic priest that i have regular debates with acknowledges that religion has delayed scientific advance whenever it could.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

So, has everyone had enough time to ponder whether they agree or disagree with the comments made by the church? Show of hands, anyone...?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

:wavey: No prizes for guessing my opinion :)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I said earlier in this thread that the Bible establishes very early on that God uses large-scale calamities as judgement on nations and cultures. Whether that's the case here, time will tell. I don't know this bishop's ministry so I can't say if he's a trustworthy man of God whose teaching I ought to sit up and listen to. I don't know if he's a prophet.

What I do know is, this society has drifted a long way from the pattern of life and faith that God calls for, and if God is moving in judgement against that, he will also be moving to bring us back to him.

Time will tell.

I am quite sure I'm going to be accused of hedging or obfuscation, but frankly, I'm prepared to live with that. This is what I think on the issue. :)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

.....and thats probably a good thing....I suspect that you have 'drifted' a little as well :D

btw, I, of course, think the bish is out of his tree. Belongs in the middle ages :)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Have they said something else or are we still talking about the Bishop?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

It's not just the bishop, though, is it? If it was just a case of one bishop sounding off, then I don't think as many people would have been quite as offended - it would be easy to dismiss him as just being a crackpot, to bash the bishop so to speak.

However, the article in the Telegraph says that it's not just the ramblings of one lonesome bishop. Even the title, "Floods are judgment on society, say bishops" (emphasis added by myself) shows we're talking about more than one bishop. There are several bishops referred to in the article, which suggests to me that this is a unified view being expressed, i.e. that of the church.