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Saaf_laandon_mo 20-06-2007 14:22
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34332268)
Wouldn't know, you're too paranoid to tell us which town you live in ;)

So why haven't you taken this issue up with your child's head teacher?
A lot of parents are too lazy to make the trip into school if their kids arent doing well. Its much easier to blame the teachers and all the immigrant kids.

As for being paranoid to tell us where he lives maybe he lives in a place like Slough and is too ashamed to mention it. Thats one of those places no one likes to say they're from.

freezin 20-06-2007 15:07
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 34332284)
A lot of parents are too lazy to make the trip into school if their kids arent doing well. Its much easier to blame the teachers and all the immigrant kids.
And a lot of parents don't bring up their concerns because they can't see what good it would do and don't want to be branded as racists.

When even a schoolgirl's views are scrutinised for racism, there isn't much hope for parents raising similar concerns.


Quote:
A TEENAGE girl was questioned by police after allegedly making a racist remark to Asian students in the classroom.

The 14-year-old pupil had refused to take part in a science tutorial with five other students at Harrop Fold High School, Salford, after claiming they didn't speak English ...

Source: Manchester Evening News

Xaccers 20-06-2007 15:15
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34332330)
And a lot of parents don't bring up their concerns because they can't see what good it would do and don't want to be branded as racists.

When even a schoolgirl's views are scrutinised for racism, there isn't much hope for parents raising similar concerns.
Funny how there's no confirmation that the girls couldn't speak english don't you think?
Surely you can understand that if someone says they don't want to work with asians "because they can't speak english" when they actually can, its a racial slur?

If one child said they didn't want to work with a Liverpudlian child because "he'll steal my stuff" it's understandable that the child should be punished right? (not the Liverpudlian)

As for not bringing up concerns that your child isn't getting an education because the teacher's time is being spent with other children, I don't know of any decent parents who'd let that go without complaining to the school.

freezin 20-06-2007 15:42
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34332340)
Funny how there's no confirmation that the girls couldn't speak english don't you think?

Surely you can understand that if someone says they don't want to work with asians "because they can't speak english" when they actually can, its a racial slur?
The girl's mother said: "She asked to be taken out of her group because the other five students were Asians and four didn't speak English so there was no point in her being with them. When she pointed this out to the teacher she was accused of being racist."

The girl was accused of being a "racist", but no one said she was wrong according to the reports I have seen.

Head Dr Antony Edkins said: "An allegation of a serious nature was made concerning a racially motivated remark by one student towards a group of Asian students new to the school and this country."

So if the other children could speak English, then the girl was a racist, but she'd have to be a liar as as well as a racist in that case. If they could, the Dr Edkins was in a good position to say so, but apparently he chose not to. Isn't that strange?
Quote:
As for not bringing up concerns that your child isn't getting an education because the teacher's time is being spent with other children, I don't know of any decent parents who'd let that go without complaining to the school.
When it's an issue involving children of different races or cultures, it becomes so politically correct with some teachers that even "decent parents", or perhaps especially decent parents, fear to tread.

Xaccers 20-06-2007 15:52
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34332373)
The girl's mother said: "She asked to be taken out of her group because the other five students were Asians and four didn't speak English so there was no point in her being with them. When she pointed this out to the teacher she was accused of being racist."

The girl was accused of being a "racist", but no one said she was wrong according to the reports I have seen.

Head Dr Antony Edkins said: "An allegation of a serious nature was made concerning a racially motivated remark by one student towards a group of Asian students new to the school and this country."

So if the other children could speak English, then the girl was a racist, but she'd have to be a liar as as well as a racist in that case. If they could, the Dr Edkins was in a good position to say so, but apparently he chose not to. Isn't that strange?
Not when the reporting is up to the news paper.
I'm sure he actually said more than "An allegation of a serious nature was made concerning a racially motivated remark by one student towards a group of Asian students new to the school and this country" in fact he probably said nothing of the sort.
I know many people who've been misquoted by reporters to put a particular slant on the article, or to simply get across what they're saying in a more concise manner.
I also know of a complaint to the PCC regarding an article in a local Liverpool paper being upheld because the reporter had all his facts wrong making wild claims.

Notice the girls are not reportedly interviewed, the only suggestion they can't speak English is from the chastised girl's mother, who is likely to be relying on her daughter's opinion of the girls and trying to defend her rather than first hand knowledge of the girls involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
When it's an issue involving children of different races or cultures, it becomes so politically correct with some teachers that even "decent parents", or perhaps especially decent parents, fear to tread.
Rubbish. There is no way that saying your child is not getting the education they are entitled to because the teacher is having to spend all their time with other kids can be seen as anything other than a valid concern by a decent parent, unless that parent uses racist terms during the discussion with the school, in which case the parent is being racist.

Escapee 20-06-2007 17:23
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34332171)
The report and news article says why.Besides, Post-War Britain was built with the help of Irish Immigrants
Yes, they were encouraged here because of the shortage of male workers after WW2, they also encourage workers from other countries that were part of the British Empire. That is why so many Carribean families moved here to jobs like driving a bus for London transport etc, also in the early 60's many moved here after the independance of jamaica because they were offered a choice of jamaican or British passport. I know a family where some of them took British passports and moved here, but the rest of the family had Jamaican passports and stayed at home.

I think the difference these days with migrant workers, is not the need to fill jobs due to shortage of able bodies but in many cases its to fill the jobs as cheaply as possible. Low paid jobs are full of migrant workers, and this is the direct fault of the government because of their softly softly approach with able bodied people who are benefit scroungers.

JackB 20-06-2007 17:36
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Rubbish. There is no way that saying your child is not getting the education they are entitled to because the teacher is having to spend all their time with other kids can be seen as anything other than a valid concern by a decent parent, unless that parent uses racist terms during the discussion with the school, in which case the parent is being racist.
I think that depends who the "other kids" are.

Hugh 20-06-2007 18:32
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34331527)
The BBC is a good source of news, some perceive a liberal bias and a anti-Israel bias but its nothing compared to the vemon spewed out by the Mail. Maybe its because the BBC dont treat races as a single entity?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB (Post 34331595)
Funny you should mention that after I read this earlier today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...17/nbbc217.xml
You must have missed the fourth paragraph of that Telegraph article....
"After a year-long investigation the report, published today, maintains that the corporation’s coverage of day-to-day politics is fair and impartial."

Damien 20-06-2007 21:36
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
I still am unsure of what vision of Britain people have. Our History is hardly full of happy, rich, success and dancing around green fields. Since all of you have been around England has had immgration.

Its seems with some on here, and not all controlled immgration is what everyone wants but its the extent of the controls we disagree on, but some have a warpped vision of what immgration has done and what Britain used to be. A complete avoidance of fact and a willingness to believe the worst if it conforms to their own views.

Escapee 21-06-2007 06:46
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34332661)
I still am unsure of what vision of Britain people have. Our History is hardly full of happy, rich, success and dancing around green fields. Since all of you have been around England has had immgration.

Its seems with some on here, and not all controlled immgration is what everyone wants but its the extent of the controls we disagree on, but some have a warpped vision of what immgration has done and what Britain used to be. A complete avoidance of fact and a willingness to believe the worst if it conforms to their own views.
I think the difference between now and further back in history, is the perception of the immigrants usefulness to the UK.

To stereotype to a certain degree, Irish workers were 'encouraged' here to build roads and caribbean workers were 'encouraged' here to drive buses and trains. That is a completely different reason to modern immigrants, modern immigrants are welcomed here by companies that want to pay peanuts to maximise their profits.

Joe public sees no benefit in an immigrant coming here and working for a private company unlike those filling a public sector job. Even Polish workers coming here to build houses are carrying out a much needed task, but they are again working cheaply to line the pockets of private companies.

Apart from Nurses and Doctors Immigrants are not filling many positions that have a direct benefit to the public.

Osem 21-06-2007 07:27
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
At present we have what the government claim is a sound and growing economy. If problems such as these are evident during what are supposed to be the good times, how much worse are things going to be when the house of cards tumbles down? If people think tensions between the communities are raised now, God knows what it'll be like if we have a slump. There has been little or no long term thought given to this issue (i.e. additional infrastructure, public services etc.) and too much emphasis placed on the short term economic benefits of migrant labour. Whilst there may well be longer term benefits to the economy of mass migration that isn't much comfort to those who perceive they are losing out now whether it be in jobs, housing, education or anything else. The government opened the floodgates apparently expecting a trickle but got a torrent of migrants and that is why the debate has recently intensified. Had this same migration been properly managed over a more sensible period there would have been time to put additional resources and services in place to mitigate the affects on the host population and provide better conditions for the migrants. The whole thing has been a shambles.

freezin 21-06-2007 08:15
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Sorry to backtrack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34332383)
Not when the reporting is up to the news paper.
Well you'd expect the BBC to report the headmaster's comments fairly, wouldn't you? But they didn't quote him at all. He is also quoted more fully by the Daily Mail although I expect the Mail's report is no more to your liking than the Manchester Evening News' is. Interestingly, we also learn from the BBC that Greater Manchester Police take "hate crime reports very seriously and its treatment of the teenager was in line with normal procedure." That a 14 year old's comments led to her being arrested for a "hate crime" is depressing example of the political correctness affecting this country. Even if your preferred version of events is true, shouldn't this have been dealt with by a reasonable teacher or the headmaster alone? Did the school really need to involve the police?

Quote:
I'm sure he actually said more than "An allegation of a serious nature was made concerning a racially motivated remark by one student towards a group of Asian students new to the school and this country" in fact he probably said nothing of the sort. I know many people who've been misquoted by reporters to put a particular slant on the article, or to simply get across what
they're saying in a more concise manner. I also know of a complaint to the PCC regarding an article in a local Liverpool paper being upheld because the reporter had all his facts wrong making wild claims.
I know of similar cases too, but no such claims have been brought against either newspaper over this particular issue. And Paul Dacre, editor of the Daily Mail, is a member of the PCC. Perhaps that doesn't say much for the PCC?

Quote:
Notice the girls are not reportedly interviewed, the only suggestion they can't speak English is from the chastised girl's mother, who is likely to be relying on her daughter's opinion of the girls and trying to defend her rather than first hand knowledge of the girls involved.
Evidently you are actually prepared to believe that this 14 year old is both a liar and a racist, despite no claims to the contrary? Interesting.

Please clarify: If she had been honest, ie that she was expected to discuss a subject with a group of 5 others, only 1 of whom could speak English, do you think she acted reasonably in asking her teacher if she could change groups? (And the MEN did not report the discussion group children as being girls.)

Quote:
... There is no way that saying your child is not getting the education they are entitled to because the teacher is having to spend all their time with other kids can be seen as anything other than a valid concern by a decent parent, unless that parent uses racist terms during the discussion with the school, in which case the parent is being racist.
Absolutely right. Unfortunately not all teachers regard the issue in such an eminently reasonable way.

Chrysalis 21-06-2007 09:08
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 34331860)
I'm not quite sure if that argument holds. Firstly, many immigrants will bugger off after a few years. Secondly, if they put their children through full education here, the children are likely to remain here and pay their own taxes (i.e. they would be contributing as much as the average native briton (on average)).
My real life experience suggests the opposite, local housing benefit office is maybe 50% immigrant mothers. We have numerous schools that teach immigrant kids only or are dominated by immigrant kids. One of the stats released by our government (not saying its accurate) points out immigrants are having more children per child bearing woman then non immigrants, I think people aren't going to come here have/with children then take them back to their native country.

--edit--

Someone else earlier pointed out about confusing asylum seekers with immigrants I may be doing this but its hard to see who is a immigrant and who is an asylum seeker.

---------- Post added at 09:51 ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 34332157)
I'm technically an immigrant (been here since 1975 tho) and most of my friends are 'immigrants' too.

Where I work the majority of the temps are immigrants (South Africans, Aussies, Albanians, a Lituanina and some Poles)

I think a lot of people on this forum know immigrants personally hence the discussions.
Yep, I probably come across as racist to a few people when I am not, I have asian friends, polish friends some do agree and some dont agree with my views. I dont wish for immigration to be stopped, I expect most people dont wish for immigration to be stopped but would like there to be more control of it and limited, not only does it cause crowding in the country but it also creates a bad stigma around every immigrant in this country.

---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34332178)
What nationality? Most immgration is slow, it hasnt gone up that drastically in the last 10 years. Most schools kids from immgrant familys would have been born here.
Depends where you live as they tend to congregate in areas, its grown here by over 20% in the last 10 years.

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 34332182)
An there is the challenge that this government has failed to rise to. Get the spongers off benefits and get them working rather than let in loads of foreign workers.

Now that really would help the UK economy.
Yes but their precious housing market would collapse as housing demand would be lost without immigration :)

---------- Post added at 09:59 ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34332188)
#30

#32
Chrysalis refers to an open immigration policy, when that isn't the case. It's apparently not even that easy to get a tourist visa to come and visit the UK for tourism!
There's also the suggestion that there will be a language barrier strain on education as immigrants have more children than natives (I assume that by natives, Chrysalis is not including native muslims, catholics, chavs, orthadox jews etc), even though children born in this country to immigrant parents can speak english before they get to school through the amazing ability of children to learn languages, even from TV (I knew a turkish boy who by the age of 4 could speak fluent american thanks to Seseme street).
Well by natives I mean people who dont need to be treated different to live in this country, examples school uniforms, speaking english, mixing with whites/asians etc. The reason there is these schools is because the children attending them would have problems attending a traditional school. Its a touchy subject and people can easily be offended by what I am trying to say but I hope my points are understood, educating children from a family where the parents can barely speak english is more diffilcult and expensive then educating someone who has had family here for generations.

---------- Post added at 10:08 ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34332830)
I think the difference between now and further back in history, is the perception of the immigrants usefulness to the UK.

To stereotype to a certain degree, Irish workers were 'encouraged' here to build roads and caribbean workers were 'encouraged' here to drive buses and trains. That is a completely different reason to modern immigrants, modern immigrants are welcomed here by companies that want to pay peanuts to maximise their profits.

Joe public sees no benefit in an immigrant coming here and working for a private company unlike those filling a public sector job. Even Polish workers coming here to build houses are carrying out a much needed task, but they are again working cheaply to line the pockets of private companies.

Apart from Nurses and Doctors Immigrants are not filling many positions that have a direct benefit to the public.
There is also housing, housing demands are currently driven by private landlords buying up properties and letting out to immigrants and students, previously it was more mainly students. In terms of social housing it is well known in areas of social housing that asylum seekers/immagrants will get priority on social housing it is very noticeable as 9 out of 10 houses an asylum seeker will move into and when someone asks them how long they been waiting for the house they will say something like a month or a week when people have been on the waiting list for years. Reasons like this is why people in estate areas have a higher objection to immigration as they are affected more. Again asylum seekers which technically are not immigrants are part of this.

From what I see polish immigrants are benefiting the private sector a lot, they tend to work hard for low wages and then live in private rented properties of course this is also keeping wages low, immigrants from muslim countries have a high unemployment ratio and high amount of illegal immigration, also from african countries high amount of illegal immigration but are hard workers similiar to the polish, all this is from my own personal experiences and stats from muslim employment. It may well be a different picture to what it is like nationally.

One thing we can be sure of there is currently nowhere near enough houses been built which would also indicate public services are stressed since they tend to be expanded alongside housing.

Saaf_laandon_mo 21-06-2007 09:36
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34332907)
My real life experience suggests the opposite, local housing benefit office is maybe 50% immigrant mothers. We have numerous schools that teach immigrant kids only or are dominated by immigrant kids. One of the stats released by our government (not saying its accurate) points out immigrants are having more children per child bearing woman then non immigrants, I think people aren't going to come here have/with children then take them back to their native country.

--edit--

Someone else earlier pointed out about confusing asylum seekers with immigrants I may be doing this but its hard to see who is a immigrant and who is an asylum seeker.

---------- Post added at 09:51 ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 ----------
When you say that in your local office housing Benefit office that immigrant mothers make up at least 50% of the claimants, I doubt that this is reflected nationwide. It would be interesting if there were stats that showed percentage of immigrants claiming housing benefit as a proportion to total claimants. Additionally how long ago have the immigrated into the UK? Are you saying that these people are, to use a common term, "straight of the boat", and getting housing benefits?

As for schools that exclusively only teach immigrants, I have yet to come across any of these in London, so I'm curious to know where in the UK you are referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34332907)

Yep, I probably come across as racist to a few people when I am not, I have asian friends, polish friends some do agree and some dont agree with my views. I dont wish for immigration to be stopped, I expect most people dont wish for immigration to be stopped but would like there to be more control of it and limited, not only does it cause crowding in the country but it also creates a bad stigma around every immigrant in this country.
---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 ----------
I dont see you coming across as being a racist, and I understand what you say about controlled immigration. I am just fed up with people blaming everything from house prices to kids doing badly at school to immigrants, in particular indian/pakistani muslim ones which seem to be flavour of the month for the anti immigration fanatics. In my opinion a lot of non immigrants in the UK are not unemployed because of the immigrants coming here, but more so because of their own inability to get off their backside and actually go out to work, rather than sponging off the dole.

As for the housing price/shortages, I read a few months ago that the London property price increase was down to the banking sector and their huge bonuses. Yes, banking does have a lot of immigrants, but you'd find that they are all working. You cant just single out immigration for housing shortages/property prices.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34332907)

From what I see polish immigrants are benefiting the private sector a lot, they tend to work hard for low wages and then live in private rented properties of course this is also keeping wages low, immigrants from muslim countries have a high unemployment ratio and high amount of illegal immigration, also from african countries high amount of illegal immigration but are hard workers similiar to the polish, all this is from my own personal experiences and stats from muslim employment. It may well be a different picture to what it is like nationally.

One thing we can be sure of there is currently nowhere near enough houses been built which would also indicate public services are stressed since they tend to be expanded alongside housing.
Would it be possible to publish a link to stats regarding Muslim employment. I would say that muslim immigrants from India, Pakistan and Africa do very well in employement and contribute quite highly to the UK economy, be they employed or self employed. I find it quite strange that once again muslim immigrants that are being singled out, this time for being unemployed. In my experience the majority of muslim immigrants (especially those from India/Pakistan and a few African countries) are hard working, and have a healthy work ethic. Their kids (who were born here or who came over when they were very young) do very well at school too, and go on to university to study proper degrees such as economics, business, computing, medicine and not media studies or art or drama which seems to be quite common with the english (oh sorry for stereo typing but it seems to be contagious on this thread).

Chrysalis 21-06-2007 10:13
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
In regards to the muslim statistics I got them from a bbc news article and it was based on muslims over 25 if I remember correctly. I also based it on that most of the women I see in the housing benefit office are muslim, but its possible they may have working husbands in a low wage job. I also live an a city which has a high muslim population it is also surprising that I dont see many in places I have worked whilst there has been many polish and asian workers. I am not saying I am right tho just based on my personal experiences and a bbc news article which of course could be inaccurate in itself.

I bet there is many hard working muslims as in all religions.

Here is the article, not sure if its the right one but has some stats there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4771233.stm

Saaf_laandon_mo 21-06-2007 10:19
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34332986)
In regards to the muslim statistics I got them from a bbc news article and it was based on muslims over 25 if I remember correctly. I also based it on that most of the women I see in the housing benefit office are muslim, but its possible they may have working husbands in a low wage job. I also live an a city which has a high muslim population it is also surprising that I dont see many in places I have worked whilst there has been many polish and asian workers. I am not saying I am right tho just based on my personal experiences and a bbc news article which of course could be inaccurate in itself.

I bet there is many hard working muslims as in all religions.

Here is the article, not sure if its the right one but has some stats there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4771233.stm
Thanks for the Link.... can I ask where you're from/where you live?

I have just read that link, and it doesn't differentiate between immigrants and UK born muslims.

Could it be that no one wants to employ a muslim, based on the streotypes that are prevalent in society about them. (you can see a lot of these in this Forum, and I doubt if its just restriced to CF)

Also the muslim religion emcompasses people from quite a lot of backgrounds, so that percentage could also include Bristish born muslims. I am assuming the survey required the respondant to indicate their religion. It will definately include Bengalis and Somalians who make up quite a big chunk of the unemployed in parts of London for example. Its difficult to relate that survey/report to immigrants without more information.

Xaccers 21-06-2007 11:24
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB (Post 34332485)
I think that depends who the "other kids" are.
So you'll let your child not get the education they are entitled too for fear of somehow being called a racist by discussing the matter with the head teacher (what exactly do you think you'll say? "These bloody foriegners with no right to be here are stopping my kid getting educated") yet you'll quite happily appear as a racist on here.
Sorry, but I pity your child if that's how little importance you actually place on their education.
I certainly wouldn't let something like that slip by.

---------- Post added at 12:11 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34332878)
Sorry to backtrack.



Well you'd expect the BBC to report the headmaster's comments fairly, wouldn't you?
Hell no. I'd expect the BBC to put their own slant on it using the information available. The girls may not have wished to give interviews for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freein
I know of similar cases too, but no such claims have been brought against either newspaper over this particular issue. And Paul Dacre, editor of the Daily Mail, is a member of the PCC. Perhaps that doesn't say much for the PCC?
You know of other cases where a local rag claims toy guns sold for £1.99 can kill or paralyse, where complaints have been raised by someone who just read the article and wished to set the record straight over the facts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
Evidently you are actually prepared to believe that this 14 year old is both a liar and a racist, despite no claims to the contrary? Interesting.
Are you not prepared to believe that the 14 year old is both a liar and a racist?
If not, why not?
Many 14 year olds are liars, many are racists, many are both. What's special about this girl that she can't possibly be either?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
Please clarify: If she had been honest, ie that she was expected to discuss a subject with a group of 5 others, only 1 of whom could speak English, do you think she acted reasonably in asking her teacher if she could change groups? (And the MEN did not report the discussion group children as being girls.)
I've been put to work with a girl who had speach issues, she never spoke, the reason I was put with her was to try and bring her out of her shell because of the type of person I was, I wouldn't make fun of her, or ignore her, I'd coax her to speak, and it worked.
What better way to help people if they have poor english skills to learn english than to work with english pupils in a discussion task?
Or do you think they should integrate by being segregated in class? Would that be better?

---------- Post added at 12:24 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34332907)
Someone else earlier pointed out about confusing asylum seekers with immigrants I may be doing this but its hard to see who is a immigrant and who is an asylum seeker.
It's quite easy if you just use your noggin ;)
Asylum seekers are not allowed to work, so are reliant on reduced benefits and social housing (different allocation of social housing to natives, so no worry about them jumping ahead of any British workshy scrotes now, so don't fret). Why aren't they allowed to work I hear any sensible person ask?
Well, you see, a load of racist anti-immigrant bigots went "waaa waaa waaa they're just claiming to be asylum seekers to take all our jobs, the low paid ones which Brits like us don't want to do" so the governmnet, in true Tabloid Policy style, denied asylum seekers the right to work, so any doctors, nurses, teachers etc who are qualified to work in the UK, just can't. So, because they can't work, there's this little thing called duty of care, you may have heard about it, it's sometimes considered part of what's being British, and basically it means that being decent human beings (we are decent human beings aren't we? Well, I am) we look after people in need whenever we can. So rather than your asylum seeker being able to work, pay rent, tax, food etc, they now are reliant on the state to support them. Course, then all the right wing racist biggots said "Waa waa waa they're all coming over to get benefits that our own workshy scrotes should get" so the benefits that an asylum seeker get are lower than what a British workshy scrote would get.
Then the right wing racist biggots said "Waa waa waa they're still coming for benefits, and 0.5% of the total benefit expendature is way too high, that money should go to British workshy scrotes" and we have the situation we're in today where the media loves blurring the line between immigrant and asylum seeker.
Great isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis
Well by natives I mean people who dont need to be treated different to live in this country, examples school uniforms, speaking english, mixing with whites/asians etc. The reason there is these schools is because the children attending them would have problems attending a traditional school. Its a touchy subject and people can easily be offended by what I am trying to say but I hope my points are understood, educating children from a family where the parents can barely speak english is more diffilcult and expensive then educating someone who has had family here for generations.
So Catholics who send their kids to Catholic schools aren't native then?
Or Anglicans who send their children to CoE schools?

Educating someone who spent most of their childhood speaking another language costs more in time, but even if English isn't spoken at home, most children who were born here are able to speak english by the time they reach primary school (the exception I know of being the son of an ex-neighbour, who could hardly speak, didn't know his colours or how to count to 3, but could swear like a trooper. Course his mother was white, english (native), and never did a days work in her life, oh and her other kids are currently helping to boost the prison population even higher).

freezin 21-06-2007 16:31
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34333013)

Hell no. I'd expect the BBC to put their own slant on it using the information available. The girls may not have wished to give interviews for example.
Well I would. They show a bias towards the "immigration is good" line of thought in my view. But it seems the headmaster did talk to the press, but the BBC either didn't interview him or chose not to report his comments. After what the Mail had said, if there was a different side to the story, and if it was to report on the story at all, I think the BBC had a duty as our publicly funded broadcaster to present both sides of the matter. There is no reason why the other children should have given interviews. They do of course have a right to their privacy if they and their parents want it. (And how do you know they were girls?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
You know of other cases where a local rag claims toy guns sold for £1.99 can kill or paralyse, where complaints have been raised by someone who just read the article and wished to set the record straight over the facts?
We know it happens, but no one complained over the reporting of this case. And the anti-racist lobby is not normally reluctant to make capital out of those it thinks are racists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Are you not prepared to believe that the 14 year old is both a liar and a racist? If not, why not? Many 14 year olds are liars, many are racists, many are both. What's special about this girl that she can't possibly be either?
I didn't say she couldn't possibly be either, and indeed I allowed for the fact that she could be, but you are not even willing to give her the benefit of the doubt despite the police, who take "hate crimes very seriously" dropping the case and no one saying that she was wrong in her assertion of the launguage barrier, not even via the BBC. Innocent until proven guilty in your eyes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
I've been put to work with a girl who had speach issues, she never spoke, the reason I was put with her was to try and bring her out of her shell because of the type of person I was, I wouldn't make fun of her, or ignore her, I'd coax her to speak, and it worked.
That's very laudable, sincerely. May I ask in what capacity have you been working with her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xaccers
What better way to help people if they have poor english skills to learn english than to work with english pupils in a discussion task? Or do you think they should integrate by being segregated in class? Would that be better?
Integration into mainstream education is all very well for those with poor English skills, but it doesn't help the academic education of those who already speak English proficiently enough to understand the lesson. I don't believe segregation in schools helps community cohesion or integration, but schools are already becoming segregated anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34332878)
That a 14 year old's comments led to her being arrested for a "hate crime" is depressing example of the political correctness affecting this country. Even if your preferred version of events is true, shouldn't this have been dealt with by a reasonable teacher or the headmaster alone? Did the school really need to involve the police?
Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34332878)
Please clarify: If she had been honest, ie that she was expected to discuss a subject with a group of 5 others, only 1 of whom could speak English, do you think she acted reasonably in asking her teacher if she could change groups?
???

Xaccers 21-06-2007 20:47
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34333291)
Well I would. They show a bias towards the "immigration is good" line of thought in my view. But it seems the headmaster did talk to the press, but the BBC either didn't interview him or chose not to report his comments. After what the Mail had said, if there was a different side to the story, and if it was to report on the story at all, I think the BBC had a duty as our publicly funded broadcaster to present both sides of the matter. There is no reason why the other children should have given interviews. They do of course have a right to their privacy if they and their parents want it. (And how do you know they were girls?)
Exactly, there is no reason why the others should talk to the media, yet as a consiquence, we only have one side of the story. You can assume that what has been reported covers everything if you like, I'll stick with keeping an open mind and acknowledge that there are aspects of what happened which we don't know about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
We know it happens, but no one complained over the reporting of this case. And the anti-racist lobby is not normally reluctant to make capital out of those it thinks are racists.
How would the "anti-racist lobby" (you say that like it's a bad thing actually, do you believe it's bad to lobby against racism?) know what occured if the others involved aren't giving interviews?
You can't just write to the PCC and say "I don't like that article" and expect them to do something about it.
Would they have UKIP's magic crystal ball perhaps?
The one which tells them that immigration will continue at a constant rate until the end of time.
Are you using your husband's crystal ball to see if anyone has complaned to the PCC or not?
How exactly would you know unless the media printed a retraction, which is only one of many outcomes from a complaint to the PCC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
I didn't say she couldn't possibly be either, and indeed I allowed for the fact that she could be, but you are not even willing to give her the benefit of the doubt despite the police, who take "hate crimes very seriously" dropping the case and no one saying that she was wrong in her assertion of the launguage barrier, not even via the BBC. Innocent until proven guilty in your eyes?
Hang on, if you're prepaired to believe she is a racist liar, what's your point?
I've not said she is a racist liar, I've not said the event didn't take place. If you have no problem with being prepaired to believe she is actually a racist liar, then what are you going on about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
That's very laudable, sincerely. May I ask in what capacity have you been working with her?
I was a classmate, can't remember exactly what we were working on, it's about 20 years ago.
I could have said "Waa waa waaa I don't want to work with the girl who doesn't speak" or I could have gotten on with the task and hand and given her the confidence to find her voice, which thankfully happened, at least until some scrote over heard her and mocked her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
Integration into mainstream education is all very well for those with poor English skills, but it doesn't help the academic education of those who already speak English proficiently enough to understand the lesson. I don't believe segregation in schools helps community cohesion or integration, but schools are already becoming segregated anyway.
So, there's a group of 6 pupils, 2 can speak english, can we assume 1 can speak both english and urdu while 4 can only speak urdu? (that's urdo the language, not to be mistaken for Locky's Hurdo, which we think is a hairstyle in Liverpool)
So, rather than work as a team, helping her fellow students and learning important life skills from it, you think it's ok that she went "waa waa waa miss it's too hard to actually do any work, I can't be bovvered to work with these that can't speak english"
Exactly how is that helping people integrate?
In her position, I would have used the bilingual student to translate, thus not only teaching the other 4 english language skills, but also learn some urdu at the same time.
But hey, learning can be hard, and it's not for everyone right?

Chrysalis 22-06-2007 08:34
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 34332988)
Thanks for the Link.... can I ask where you're from/where you live?

I have just read that link, and it doesn't differentiate between immigrants and UK born muslims.

Could it be that no one wants to employ a muslim, based on the streotypes that are prevalent in society about them. (you can see a lot of these in this Forum, and I doubt if its just restriced to CF)

Also the muslim religion emcompasses people from quite a lot of backgrounds, so that percentage could also include Bristish born muslims. I am assuming the survey required the respondant to indicate their religion. It will definately include Bengalis and Somalians who make up quite a big chunk of the unemployed in parts of London for example. Its difficult to relate that survey/report to immigrants without more information.
I agree that stereotyping will exist especially after 9/11, having spoken to some of my friends about this last night they have put me straight on a few other things as well like many people I used to work with were actually muslim when I thought they wasn't.

My views on immigration I would like to add would apply to whites as well, so american, australian, german and french immigrants would be included in my thoughts.

---------- Post added at 09:34 ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34333013)


It's quite easy if you just use your noggin ;)
Asylum seekers are not allowed to work, so are reliant on reduced benefits and social housing (different allocation of social housing to natives, so no worry about them jumping ahead of any British workshy scrotes now, so don't fret). Why aren't they allowed to work I hear any sensible person ask?
Well, you see, a load of racist anti-immigrant bigots went "waaa waaa waaa they're just claiming to be asylum seekers to take all our jobs, the low paid ones which Brits like us don't want to do" so the governmnet, in true Tabloid Policy style, denied asylum seekers the right to work, so any doctors, nurses, teachers etc who are qualified to work in the UK, just can't. So, because they can't work, there's this little thing called duty of care, you may have heard about it, it's sometimes considered part of what's being British, and basically it means that being decent human beings (we are decent human beings aren't we? Well, I am) we look after people in need whenever we can. So rather than your asylum seeker being able to work, pay rent, tax, food etc, they now are reliant on the state to support them. Course, then all the right wing racist biggots said "Waa waa waa they're all coming over to get benefits that our own workshy scrotes should get" so the benefits that an asylum seeker get are lower than what a British workshy scrote would get.
Then the right wing racist biggots said "Waa waa waa they're still coming for benefits, and 0.5% of the total benefit expendature is way too high, that money should go to British workshy scrotes" and we have the situation we're in today where the media loves blurring the line between immigrant and asylum seeker.
Great isn't it?



So Catholics who send their kids to Catholic schools aren't native then?
Or Anglicans who send their children to CoE schools?

Educating someone who spent most of their childhood speaking another language costs more in time, but even if English isn't spoken at home, most children who were born here are able to speak english by the time they reach primary school (the exception I know of being the son of an ex-neighbour, who could hardly speak, didn't know his colours or how to count to 3, but could swear like a trooper. Course his mother was white, english (native), and never did a days work in her life, oh and her other kids are currently helping to boost the prison population even higher).
The reason asylum seekers are part of my arguments is simply because the 2 things are linked, if you have an open immigration policy then quite simply there will be more asylum seekers the two things come hand in hand so asylum seekers costs should be counted as part of costs associated with immigration.

Immigrants from countries such as australia and american I would expect to have lower costs as there shouldnt be so much of a language and culture barrier but they of course all add to the overcrowding problems we have in this country.

Regarding the native stuff I knew it would be questioned but hard to word what I am on about. Its not merely about religion but more to do with language and culture barriers.

Xaccers 22-06-2007 08:49
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34333630)
The reason asylum seekers are part of my arguments is simply because the 2 things are linked, if you have an open immigration policy then quite simply there will be more asylum seekers the two things come hand in hand so asylum seekers costs should be counted as part of costs associated with immigration.

Immigrants from countries such as australia and american I would expect to have lower costs as there shouldnt be so much of a language and culture barrier but they of course all add to the overcrowding problems we have in this country.
We don't have an open immigration policy, and we have a reduction in asylum applications (simply because the conflicts around the world causing asylum seekers have been resolved in many cases).
Asylum seekers' only option is benefits.
Most immigrants don't have that option, they can only work for a living.
My gf, South African, can't get JSA, can't get housing benefit, can't get hospital treatment on the NHS other than A&E.
If she were pregnant, we'd have to pay up to £9K to have our baby born in a hospital.
Yet you're unable to differentiate between that and an asylum seeker?
Come off it! It's not hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysalis
Regarding the native stuff I knew it would be questioned but hard to word what I am on about. Its not merely about religion but more to do with language and culture barriers.
Like an Englishman moving to Wales and not being able to speak the language?
Or someone from the deep west country not being understood in London? How are your bunty chompers?
Or the cultural barrier between northeners and southerners?

TheDaddy 22-06-2007 08:54
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34333640)
Like an Englishman moving to Wales and not being able to speak the language?
Or someone from the deep west country not being understood in London? How are your bunty chompers?
Completely unlike that I'd imagine, considering we all share a common language, even if it gets a bit mangled regionally, you can still get the gist of it or speak slowly and clearly and if all else fails, write it down

Xaccers 22-06-2007 09:00
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34333642)
Completely unlike that I'd imagine, considering we all share a common language, even if it gets a bit mangled regionally, you can still get the gist of it or speak slowly and clearly and if all else fails, write it down
:rofl:
Reminds me of the Rory Bremner sketch with Bush Snr, Gorby and Maggie.

Bush: English is my first language, French is my second language, when I'm abroad I can speak English or French
Gorby: Russian is my first language, English is my second language, when I'm abroad I speak English
Maggie: If you speak slow enough and loud enough, they usually understand.

I can't read welsh, well ok, I can, I just don't understand it and I may get ll's and dd's wrong, but I need the added expense of having Welsh translated into English.
To my knowledge, there are no How to learn Welsh classes in my area.
I love the idea that people from the Indian sub continent will have no comprehension of English, normally from the same people who harp on about how great the British Empire was (oh the irony).

TheDaddy 22-06-2007 09:08
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34333649)
:rofl:
Reminds me of the Rory Bremner sketch with Bush Snr, Gorby and Maggie.

Bush: English is my first language, French is my second language, when I'm abroad I can speak English or French
Gorby: Russian is my first language, English is my second language, when I'm abroad I speak English
Maggie: If you speak slow enough and loud enough, they usually understand.

I can't read welsh, well ok, I can, I just don't understand it and I may get ll's and dd's wrong, but I need the added expense of having Welsh translated into English.
To my knowledge, there are no How to learn Welsh classes in my area.
I love the idea that people from the Indian sub continent will have no comprehension of English, normally from the same people who harp on about how great the British Empire was (oh the irony).
Considering most native Welsh people can't speak Welsh, I wouldn't let that bother you

Where do you get the idea that people from India have no comprehension of English, having worked with dozens of them I'd say most speak the language better than I do

Xaccers 22-06-2007 09:11
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34333659)
Considering most native Welsh people can't speak Welsh, I wouldn't let that bother you

Where do you get the idea that people from India have no comprehension of English, having worked with dozens of them I'd say most speak the language better than I do

Oh I know, I know, not met one asian who's not had at least a pretty good grasp of english.
Just try telling that to the "Asians cost a fortune because they can't speak english" people though.
Ok, they may get their b's and v's mixed up, and be hard to make out over a crackly longdistance call (allegedly to Swansea), but they can understand what you're saying, if not why you're saying it.

Chrysalis 22-06-2007 09:35
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34333640)
We don't have an open immigration policy, and we have a reduction in asylum applications (simply because the conflicts around the world causing asylum seekers have been resolved in many cases).
Asylum seekers' only option is benefits.
Most immigrants don't have that option, they can only work for a living.
My gf, South African, can't get JSA, can't get housing benefit, can't get hospital treatment on the NHS other than A&E.
If she were pregnant, we'd have to pay up to £9K to have our baby born in a hospital.
Yet you're unable to differentiate between that and an asylum seeker?
Come off it! It's not hard.



Like an Englishman moving to Wales and not being able to speak the language?
Or someone from the deep west country not being understood in London? How are your bunty chompers?
Or the cultural barrier between northeners and southerners?
Last time I went to wales they had no problem understanding english.

I can differentate but do you not understand that asylum seekers and immigrants are not linked? ie. when you allow more immigrants you also get more asylum seekers.

1 - you said yourself asylum seekers cant work and have to have benefits, this costs money as well as the housing provided.
2 - immigrants are the opposite and are restricted in terms of benefits but do still cost the country money for public services and housing space.

You are arguing with me as if I am saying stop immigration when I am merely saying it needs to be cut down.

Xaccers 22-06-2007 09:59
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34333677)
Last time I went to wales they had no problem understanding english.

I can differentate but do you not understand that asylum seekers and immigrants are not linked? ie. when you allow more immigrants you also get more asylum seekers.

1 - you said yourself asylum seekers cant work and have to have benefits, this costs money as well as the housing provided.
2 - immigrants are the opposite and are restricted in terms of benefits but do still cost the country money for public services and housing space.

You are arguing with me as if I am saying stop immigration when I am merely saying it needs to be cut down.
You appear to be suggesting that a country cannot have a moratorium on immigration without also having one on asylum seekers, is that really what you're suggesting?

By virtue of working, immigrants pay taxes, such as council tax and income tax, and VAT, and duty on items imported which otherwise wouldn't be sold.
Hence why there is a net gain not loss from immigrants.
So yes, they do cost, like you cost, but they pay for their costs, unlike the workshy scrotes in social housing who've never done an honest day's work in their life.

freezin 22-06-2007 10:49
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Xaccers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freezin
That a 14 year old's comments led to her being arrested for a "hate crime" is depressing example of the political correctness affecting this country. Even if your preferred version of events is true, shouldn't this have been dealt with by a reasonable teacher or the headmaster alone? Did the school really need to involve the police?

Please clarify: If she had been honest, ie that she was expected to discuss a subject with a group of 5 others, only 1 of whom could speak English, do you think she acted reasonably in asking her teacher if she could change groups?
???
???

Simple enough questions, are they not?

Xaccers 22-06-2007 12:52
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34333717)
Xaccers



???

Simple enough questions, are they not?
Apparently my answers weren't simple enough for you, go and re-read them, then ask me about the bits you don't understand.

While you're at it, can you explain why you suggested lobbying against racism was a bad thing?

freezin 24-06-2007 12:26
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Xaccers, I understood you perfectly. You didn't actually answer my questions. However reading between the lines of what you did write, I have concluded that your answer to:
"That a 14 year old's comments led to her being arrested for a "hate crime" is depressing example of the political correctness affecting this country. Even if your preferred version of events is true, shouldn't this have been dealt with by a reasonable teacher or the headmaster alone? Did the school really need to involve the police?"
... would have been "yes", and your answer to:
"Please clarify: If she had been honest, ie that she was expected to discuss a subject with a group of 5 others, only 1 of whom could speak English, do you think she acted reasonably in asking her teacher if she could change groups?"
... would have been "no".
Different points of view do make the world a more democratic planet. :)
And nowhere did I suggest that lobbying against racism is a bad thing. Discrimination on the basis of skin colour, race (and in most cases, religion too) is abhorrent.

(The centering was by accident, not design!)

Chrysalis 24-06-2007 13:59
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34333690)
You appear to be suggesting that a country cannot have a moratorium on immigration without also having one on asylum seekers, is that really what you're suggesting?

By virtue of working, immigrants pay taxes, such as council tax and income tax, and VAT, and duty on items imported which otherwise wouldn't be sold.
Hence why there is a net gain not loss from immigrants.
So yes, they do cost, like you cost, but they pay for their costs, unlike the workshy scrotes in social housing who've never done an honest day's work in their life.
1 - Does everyone who claim benefits have never worked in their life?

2 - does every immigrant pay tax?

3 - do asylum seekers pay taxes?

4 - Do you have a hard line one sided viewpoint?

NitroNutter 25-06-2007 09:04
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
LOL @ Xaccers. You carry on living in your own ideal world, the rest of us will inevitably carry on in the real one, the one where justice is never so easy to obtain, never as cut and dried as you appear to believe it to be.

The race card when used in more individual cases is almost undefeatable, it is practically impossible to prove theres any falseness to a claim of individual racial discrimination, in individual cases where racism is claimed the authorites will inevitably drop any reports because the chances of getting caught where the risk of further consequences with more discrimination accusations to the authority itself is just to great.

Ever made an anonymous report ? They dont work, either they can easily work out approximately who made a report if it was followed up, or they simply are not followed up as it was anonymous theres no one to answer to if its not followed up, to put it simply if your not prepared to follow and back up the report with your details the report is not considered a priority report. When you do and it involves those of foriegn descent is where the trouble really begins, espicially when you have very young children.

What I do know is when these asians behave in such a manner like using his gardens as a toilet and knowingly being quite visible about it, it is in actual fact an act of racism, he is being deliberatly provocative, knowing he can and will fall back on a race card, there by claiming sympathy from gullible people such as yourself. Thats all the excuse and available fallback he needs to start, once he has played the race card they can then move onto other offences, like keying your car, having your tyres slashed, loosening your wheel nuts etc, anything sly and devious to provoke tensions further till you have no choice but to upsticks.

Xaccers 25-06-2007 09:15
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34335334)
Xaccers, I understood you perfectly. You didn't actually answer my questions. However reading between the lines of what you did write, I have concluded that your answer to:"That a 14 year old's comments led to her being arrested for a "hate crime" is depressing example of the political correctness affecting this country. Even if your preferred version of events is true, shouldn't this have been dealt with by a reasonable teacher or the headmaster alone? Did the school really need to involve the police?"... would have been "yes"
Is racism not a hate crime in your book?

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34335398)
1 - Does everyone who claim benefits have never worked in their life?
Only workshy ones that I mentioned as an example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis
2 - does every immigrant pay tax?
Pretty much, but even an idiot can work that one out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis
3 - do asylum seekers pay taxes?
Don't you already know they do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis
4 - Do you have a hard line one sided viewpoint?
You mean like yours? Goodness no!

---------- Post added at 10:15 ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroNutter (Post 34336049)
LOL @ Xaccers. You carry on living in your own ideal world, the rest of us will inevitably carry on in the real one, the one where justice is never so easy to obtain, never as cut and dried as you appear to believe it to be.
And you can carry on moaning and tarring without actually doing something about it, which of course will remove your excuse for moaning and tarring wouldn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroNutter
The race card when used in more individual cases is almost undefeatable, it is practically impossible to prove theres any falseness to a claim of individual racial discrimination, in individual cases where racism is claimed the authorites will inevitably drop any reports because the chances of getting caught where the risk of further consequences with more discrimination accusations to the authority itself is just to great.
"My neighbour is defacating in his front garden"
"You're obviously racist!"

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroNutter
Ever made an anonymous report ? They dont work, either they can easily work out approximately who made a report if it was followed up, or they simply are not followed up as it was anonymous theres no one to answer to if its not followed up, to put it simply if your not prepared to follow and back up the report with your details the report is not considered a priority report. When you do and it involves those of foriegn descent is where the trouble really begins, espicially when you have very young children.
Yes I have, and as a consiquence a certain heroin addict's underage girlfriend was saved from further sexual abuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroNutter
What I do know is when these asians behave in such a manner like using his gardens as a toilet and knowingly being quite visible about it, it is in actual fact an act of racism, he is being deliberatly provocative, knowing he can and will fall back on a race card, there by claiming sympathy from gullible people such as yourself. Thats all the excuse and available fallback he needs to start, once he has played the race card they can then move onto other offences, like keying your car, having your tyres slashed, loosening your wheel nuts etc, anything sly and devious to provoke tensions further till you have no choice but to upsticks.
How on earth do you get that defecating in his own front garden is a racist act?
Now if he was defecating on your doorstep maybe.
I suppose at least you're living up to your name.

freezin 25-06-2007 09:50
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34336057)
Is racism not a hate crime in your book?
Racism per se, though abhorrent as I've said, should not be a crime as it is a limitation on the freedom of speech. Are you saying that the girl in the incident we have been discussing is a racist? Even if she did object on the basis of race (and there is no suggestion that she did) I think classing this a race crime, with police involvement and all that that entails, is wrong when a talk with a sensible teacher about her attitude would have been more appropriate.
We are becoming a society where anybody can point a finger at another person to bring them to the attention of the police simply for something they have said!

Xaccers 25-06-2007 10:09
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34336091)


Racism per se, though abhorrent as I've said, should not be a crime as it is a limitation on the freedom of speech. Are you saying that the girl in the incident we have been discussing is a racist? Even if she did object on the basis of race (and there is no suggestion that she did) I think classing this a race crime, with police involvement and all that that entails, is wrong when a talk with a sensible teacher about her attitude would have been more appropriate.


We are becoming a society where anybody can point a finger at another person to bring them to the attention of the police simply for something they have said!
If they've said something racist then yes, take it to the police, if they believe it isn't valid, then fine.
For all we know she actually said "I dun wanna work wiv no paki's who can't even speak english"
You again appear to be falling into the trap of believing we know everything about this case, we weren't there, everything that took place hasn't been reported.
Have you not considered what might have been said to justify reporting the incident to the police? Or do you consider nothing the girl could have said to be worthy of further action?
Have you considered that the LEA's policy is that any racist comments of a serious nature are to be reported to the authorities?
Have you really?

freezin 25-06-2007 10:33
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34336104)
If they've said something racist then yes, take it to the police, if they believe it isn't valid, then fine.
So you really believe the state has the right to limit freedom of speech? To scrutinise our opinions for acceptability?

Quote:
For all we know she actually said "I dun wanna work wiv no paki's who can't even speak english"

You again appear to be falling into the trap of believing we know everything about this case, we weren't there, everything that took place hasn't been reported.
No I'm not Xaccers, I have consistently allowed for the fact that not all of the facts have been made public. But on the balance of what we do know, I am inclined to believe the girl was upset at being asked to work with a group she could not understand. I have made my position clear: had the girl made a racially motivated stand, the incident should have been dealt with in-school.

Quote:
Have you not considered what might have been said to justify reporting the incident to the police? Or do you consider nothing the girl could have said to be worthy of further action?
Yes. And in answer to your second question, GMP officers themselves did not take further action, releasing her without charge, and they take "hate crime reports very seriously" so it seems she did not say anything worthy of further action.

Quote:
Have you considered that the LEA's policy is that any racist comments of a serious nature are to be reported to the authorities?
Have you really?
Oh yes, I have definitely considered that! I think there is a very good chance that is the official position. :rolleyes:

Xaccers 25-06-2007 10:50
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34336117)

So you really believe the state has the right to limit freedom of speech? To scrutinise our opinions for acceptability?
Do you believe individuals have the right to harm others freely?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
No I'm not Xaccers, I have consistently allowed for the fact that not all of the facts have been made public. But on the balance of what we do know, I am inclined to believe the girl was upset at being asked to work with a group she could not understand. I have made my position clear: had the girl made a racially motivated stand, the incident should have been dealt with in-school.
Hang on, at least one of them reportedly can speak english, so what's the issue?
Would you also refuse to work with a group if only one could speak English?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
Yes. And in answer to your second question, GMP officers themselves did not take further action, releasing her without charge, and they take "hate crime reports very seriously" so it seems she did not say anything worthy of further action.
Which is their perogative.
I saw someone smash my window, he was arrested and later released, does that mean I was wrong to report him to the police?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
Oh yes, I have definitely considered that! I think there is a very good chance that is the official position. :rolleyes:
So why are you asking these questions if you've considered that possibility already? :confused:

PS try not to click on the indent button ;)

freezin 25-06-2007 11:57
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34336132)
Do you believe individuals have the right to harm others freely?
I take it we are not talking about physical harm? That being the case, what type of harm are we talking about?

Quote:
Hang on, at least one of them reportedly can speak english, so what's the issue? Would you also refuse to work with a group if only one could speak English?
It might well be that the child who could speak both languages was entirely fair and brought all the children, including Codie Sttott, into the discussion, but it would seem more likely than the bulk of the discussion was held in the language the majority could speak simply because that would have been the easiest option for the majority of the group. If that was how it happened it was surely Codie Stott's prerogative to ask to be moved to an English speaking group?

And no, I would not have refused to work with such a group in a one-off incidence, but then I'm a mature adult, and much less likely to be upset by that situation than a 14 year old girl. Had the situation occurred more frequently then I would have objected. I would be perfectly happy to help someone learn English and be taught a little of a different language in return in a non-academic setting.

Quote:
Which is their perogative.
Yes it is, but when the police take "hate crimes very seriously" it suggests that there was no crime to answer.

Quote:
I saw someone smash my window, he was arrested and later released, does that mean I was wrong to report him to the police?
No, it means that the police were wrong to release him without charge (if that is what happened) because criminal damage had occurred (assuming of course it wasn't purely accidental).

Quote:
So why are you asking these questions if you've considered that possibility already?

PS try not to click on the indent button
I know what the state's position is. I asked because I wanted to know what you think.

I don't think I am clicking on the indent, unless somehow there is an "indent lock" like a caps lock. Each time I preview the text, it becomes an ever narrower column. It's not something I have ever come across before. :confused:

Xaccers 25-06-2007 13:50
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin (Post 34336190)
I take it we are not talking about physical harm? That being the case, what type of harm are we talking about?
I'm not suprised you need to ask. What harm can there possibly be other than physical eh?
Stick and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me, unfortunately, that isn't true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
It might well be that the child who could speak both languages was entirely fair and brought all the children, including Codie Sttott, into the discussion, but it would seem more likely than the bulk of the discussion was held in the language the majority could speak simply because that would have been the easiest option for the majority of the group. If that was how it happened it was surely Codie Stott's prerogative to ask to be moved to an English speaking group?
If she was being excluded from the group, then she should have explained that to the teacher and asked the teacher to intercede and have the discussion take place bilingually.
It should be noted (shouldn't it?) that the inability of the majority of the group to speak English has not been confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
Yes it is, but when the police take "hate crimes very seriously" it suggests that there was no crime to answer.
Which again does not mean that no racist activity occured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
No, it means that the police were wrong to release him without charge (if that is what happened) because criminal damage had occurred (assuming of course it wasn't purely accidental).
Does it?
It was actually that there was insufficient evidence that he was the culprit to secure any case against him.
If the asians involved do not wish to co-operate then that would have a detrimental effect to any chances of prosecution.
Had you contemplated that?
If so, why have you discounted it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
I know what the state's position is. I asked because I wanted to know what you think.
I think I've made my position very clear for most people, and I'm somewhat perplexed that you're not aware of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freezin
I don't think I am clicking on the indent, unless somehow there is an "indent lock" like a caps lock. Each time I preview the text, it becomes an ever narrower column. It's not something I have ever come across before. :confused:
Perhaps one of the admins can help you?

Chrysalis 25-06-2007 14:54
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
sorry I dont have a hardline view as I have demonstrated been put straight by my friends and knowing both sides of the story. I have immigrant friends who think immigration is too much in this country and I think that says something.

I take it from your answers you are saying illegal immigrants pay tax, I meant income tax not things like VAT on consumer goods.

I will ask you the question once more if you choose not to answer it thats up to you of course but I would appreciate your view point on this.

What is your view on a more harder approach to immigration in that we still allow immigration but significant reduced numbers? Not the people already here but for new immigration.

Xaccers 25-06-2007 15:13
Re: Migrant workers help UK economy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 34336322)
I take it from your answers you are saying illegal immigrants pay tax, I meant income tax not things like VAT on consumer goods.
Ah now you didn't say that earlier.
Some illegal immigrants pay income tax.
I know of one personally who did, until he realised his status was illegal and left (hopefully to return in September)


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