Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Because that's the way arithmetic works - 75% of the UK population being 'British' (or 'white' or however you're going to misrepresent it) would mean 15 million immigrants, which is rather a lot, and it's up to you to find two Londons-full, if you wish to back your outlandish claim. It might have been worth paying attention in English as well as maths class, incidentally.

Iraq?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

There are loads of Iraqi's who have no problem with Brits living or working in Iraq.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

I'm sure the British Army reassure themselves of that every night as they take incoming mortar fire.

A large majority of Iraqis haven't forgiven us for 1919 let alone 2003, and want us out of their country.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

I'm sure the British workers out there are quite liked by many too.
Or are you suggesting that the majority of the population are currently firing mortars at everyone who is British?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Most of the violence is Iraqis killing other Iraqi's isnt it?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Yes, but that doesn't help BBKing knocking the efforts of British people over there trying to make things better.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

A breakdown of the ethnic minorities of large cities and northern towns is also interesting.

For instance the Muslim Council of Great Britain puts the Muslim populations of these local authorities at:

Tower Hamlets - 71,000 (36% of population))
Newham - 59,000 (24%)
Blackburn - 27,000 (19%)
Bradford - 75,000 (16%)
Waltham Forest - 33,000 (15%)
Luton - 27,000 (15%)
Birmingham - 140,000 (14%)
Hackney - 28,000 (14%)
Pendle - 12,000 (13%)
Slough - 16,000 (13%)
Brent - 32,000 (12%)
Redbridge - 29,000 (12%)
Westminster - 21,000 (12%)
Camden - 23,000 (12%)
Haringey - 24,000 (11%)

Some of these Muslims are no doubt white and British.

Information available from local authorities shows a much heavier concentration of ethnic minorities in some areas. One of the broadsheets, the Independent I think, produced an ethnic map of Britain which illustrated where these concentrations were, but sadly it no longer seems to be available on their website.

But information is available about ethnic make up in individual areas (based on self-declared information in the 2001 Census) is available from the CRE.

I think the country is fracturing along racial/cultural lines, and it's worrying. I have relations who live in some of those Northern towns and resentment is building on all sides.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

I live in one of those northern towns, and I disagree. There may be instances of frictions between different groups, but they had those in Glasgow and Liverpool (amongst others) in the 60's and 70's between Catholics and Protestants, and I don't remember anyone claiming that the UK would be over-run with left-footers within the next couple of generations. ;)

I think the main reason that there is any possibility of "the country is fracturing along racial/cultural lines" is that people keep crying wolf for their own agendas, hoping to raise fear, uncertainty, and doubt amongst all members of society, to enable their own ends to be met.

Yes, there are issues and problems in areas of our communities, but there have always been social and cultural differences with immigrants to our shores, from the Romans, to the Normans, to the Huguenots, to the Commonwealth citizens of the Caribbean we invited in 50's and 60's - but it has all worked out in the end, because most people want to get along, and not use the fact that just because people are different, that does not make them "invaders" or "not brittish" (to quote earlier posters).

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

They are an easy target for those that would not have the balls to do what they are doing, The type that does not give a hoot about this country's security but would see some **** bag get away with murder . "That was NOT aimed at BBKing btw"

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Multiracialism is irrelevant, I think multiculturalism is the 'problem'. A commitment to a religion is adherence to a whole distinctive lifestyle, so segregation is unavoidable as people with common dietary requirements/rituals/beliefs will naturally stick together and form their own communities. Hopefully, religiousity will decline in the next few generations and the as will the tensions with it. The government should have a view to make these communities at the very least much more moderate, and to not pander to their cultural differences as this will perpetuate the segregation and tensions. Immigrants should accept sacrifices of their previous culture and must learn English.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

People like Trevor Philips have voiced serious concerns about the segregation of communities, as in this speech. Is he doing any of the things you suggest? And I wouldn't call the recent riots "frictions"!
I disagree. I think as the country becomes more crowded, quality of life will fall for everyone here. But please be more specific. Which people are doing that and in what way are they doing so? Is anyone who expresses concerns about mass immigration doing that in your view? And just what is the agenda of the people who support mass immigration?

The British population before the Black Death was approximately 7 million, and even by the 1960s it it still hadn't reached 53 million, so immigration in the past simply did not have the impact that it does today. It has now reached over 60 million and official predictions expect it to reach 70.5 million by 2074 with a current official net immigration rate of about 180,000 pa. (But the government doesn't actually know the population of the country so official estimates should be treated with caution.) Given that we are already one of the World's most densely populated countries, would you expect Britain's future inhabitants to have a good quality of life?

A total of only 50,000 or so Hugeunots fled to Britain when the population was still comparatively tiny and they integrated. It is also interesting to note that after the Black Death which almost halved the population, life for the surviving peasants improved in that their employers had to contend with the increased mobility in the labour market prompting wage inflation ... the opposite of what we see today.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Freezin, what can you tell us about the mass immigration from Ireland that occured in the 50's?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Most of the *deaths* are, but the Iraqis aren't in armored cars, in body armor, with ROE that say 'shoot cars that don't stop', and with medevac helicopters standing by.

For a long time the violence, defined as number of attacks however, was overwhelmingly against coalition forces, and indeed may still be so (not seen any figures recently). The includes anything from a chap having a pop with a rifle at a patrol to a mine explosion capable of destroying a tank to the rather elaborate co-ordinated downing of a US chopper followed by two ambushes of the rescue party. We've really given the bad guys world-class training in counter-insurgency.

I'm certainly not knocking the British Army, since I tend to agree with a lot of the views expressed on ARRSE, in particular (shorter version: 'Blair is a ****/the mission's pointless/get out now'). I *am* knocking a) the people who lied to send them there and b) people who have an irrationally rosy view of the situation out of all proportion to the few known facts, who don't listen to the views of serious military men who know what they're talking about, preferring the views of charlatans like Bush and Blair.

The troops want to come home, the population of the UK overwhelmingly want them to come home, the population of *Iraq* overwhelmingly want them to come home, so why should all three views receive the middle finger?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Could you provide a link as well please? Preferably one that shows the apparent correlation between the 'far-right' members of our happy little band, and their complete inability to either write in English or spell...

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

And the British people living and working out there trying to make things better BBKing? What about them? Force them home? March in the streets of London to abandon them like you'd do for the Iraqi people who don't want things to get worse, who want to live in a peaceful country, but hey lets ignore them, they don't matter do they?
It's a mess, we could stay and help out as we have done? Oh wait, that's a positive statement, can't have that now can we? Obviously everything our forces do is a joke to you, they're not there giving security, you scoffed at that suggesting in another thread. Lets just bring them home and turn our backs on other human beings in need hey?
Hmm, sounds similar to Locky, wonder if you realised you had so much in common with him?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

I supported the war in Iraq, Now I dont. But the army serves at the command of the government and its leaders and not public perception.

With regards to Iraq, surely a lot of the people wanting the troops to leave are the ones who want to gain control of Iraq and are doing the killings? They are attacking US/UK troops and are each other. Wont our leaving open the door to a massive spade of killings and power grabs?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Surely we played a large part in creating the mess? I'm not saying things were good under Saddam, but they could hardly be worse than they are now?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Exactly, through lack of support, and by allowing militias etc to gain power, hence why we should remain until the Iraqi goverment are able to keep the peace, rather than withdraw and let things get worse.
It's all about thinking of your fellow man rather than sticking two fingers up at them and leaving them to be killed.
The likes of Locky have stated they'd prefer Iraqi's be left to kill each other (actually he said British business should profit from foreigners killing each other).
Pulling out the troops before the Iraqi government is able to maintain order would have that effect.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

But unlike other commentators, Trevor Philips proposed solutions to increase integration, rather than just repeating "rivers of blood" type speeches. If by the "recent riots" you mean Birmingham Lozells, they seem very reminiscent of occurrences in Norn Iron in the 60's up to recently (or doesn't NI count as part of UK?), and that appears to be settling down nicely now. If you mean the riots in 2001, not very "recent", are they? :dozey:

Oooh, to name but a few - BNP, UKIP; if you read their literature (and I am sure you do), you will find many instances of comments and language catering to the lowest common demoninator of fear of difference people and cultures.

I don't believe that everyone who raises the issue of immigration (loved the way you inserted "mass" in there - nice trick using emotive language ;)) is crying wolf, just the ones who use the topic to incite fear in others for their own ends, appealing to those who feel uneasy and are looking for someone, anyone, to blame. btw, who said (besides you, twisting things round and using more emotive language) that some people support "mass" (there's that extra word slipped in again) immigration, and that they have an agenda? Is ther actually an organisation that exists whose stated purpose is to ensure "mass" immigration into our green and sceptered isle? Or is that the old political trick of creating and smearing non-existent opponents, in order to let the the smearers (uuurgh) make statements that would otherwise have no justification? (as in, we must stand against all these (non-existent) organisations and people who believe in "mass" (love that word) immigration).

erm, 48th out of 230 - not really "one of the World's most densely populated countries", is it?

Black Death = 14th Century; Hugeunots = 17th Century - the connection is? The plague outbreak in the 17th Century killed approx 100k in England, and the Hugeunots integrated over time, just like (I believe) recent immigrants will.
btw, the 14th Century Black Death also has some other social side effects (Wiki) -"The Black Death had a drastic effect on Europe's population, irrevocably changing Europe's social structure. It was a serious blow to the Roman Catholic Church, Europe's predominant religious institution at the time, and resulted in widespread persecution of minorities such as Jews, Muslims, foreigners, beggars and lepers"

---------- Post added at 11:21 ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 ----------

Xaccers, a lot of the present mess was caused by de-Ba'athification of the Iraqi Civil Service, and the decision to disband the Iraqi Army; this left a lot of trained, unemployed, discontented people who blamed the Coalition for their problems, and a lot of unguarded weapons facilities -this was a Coalition policy decision, which most people, including Paul Bremer and leading members of US and UK governments, realise was wrong.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

I find that a rather distasteful accusation. I was not particularly in favour of the war, but, for a long time felt that we should stay to clear up the mess we created. Right now I'm leaning towards thinking we are doing more harm than good. It's got nothing to do with sticking two fingers up to the Iragis. Quite the opposite in fact.

Again, I suggest you reconsider your posting style. Comparing people that disagree with you with people that would like to see a race war? What type of debating technique is that?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Are you stating that if all of the foreign troops and workers left Iraq, then everything would get better, and it's the presence of those troops and workers which are causing Iraqi's to kill each other, and the troops are providing no benefits at all to security?
Or do you acknowledge that the troops and workers are actually providing some benefit to security?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Oh, nice dichotomy there. :rolleyes: What I am saying is that there appears to be very little support for our presence in Iraq amongst the Iragis, and that our presence appears to be one of the causes of a lot of the violence.

So, we should consider pulling out but equip/train/whatever the Iraqis to deal with the violence themselves. Oh, and I'm not (necessarily) talking about the workers. It's the troops I'm talking about.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Which is exactly what I said in the post you quoted:

Pulling out our troops before then would be morally scandalous to me. It would be sticking two fingers up at the Iraqi's and abandoning them.
I don't think there is anyone alive that I've heard of saying that we should never pull troops out.
Everyone is either saying that we should pull them out when the time is right, or they're saying we should pull them out right now, either ignorant, unphased, or supportive (such as Locky was) of the resultant massacres which would take place.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Well, I think we should perhaps be a little more proactive in equipping the Iragis so we can pull out, because I do wonder how much good we are actually doing at the moment.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Diverting aggression against armed and well trained forces which otherwise would be directed towards civilians of another religion is one benefit, although a strange one.
Patrolling the streets, training the Iraqi forces, helping route out militia members within the police and army, providing uniforms, administrative support, repair and rebuild work, medical treatment and supplies, just some of the benefits foreigners are providing.
The government was elected stating that the foreign forces' presence would be requested for as long as they were required, the people voted, a larger percentage of the population risked their lives to vote than can be bothered to in the relative safety of the UK.
The Iraqi government is still requesting the presence of foreigners.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

And there is none of the second type of aggression right now? As I said, the Iraqis need to be equipped to deal with it themselves. No 'diversion of agression' there. Removing a sourse of aggression rather.

And as far as I know the majority of Iraqis would rather see the troops leave. Does that count at all?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Why have you ignored the other benefits I listed?
We've both agreed that our troops should be withdrawn when they are no longer needed, however foreigners will be needed for much longer.

Troops aren't the only foreigners there though are they?
You're not suggesting it's ok for Iraqi's to think foreigners should leave but its racist and appauling for Brits to think that foreigners should leave are you?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

1. Because I stated that the Iraqis should be equipped to do it themselves. (And I think we should work harder at that).
2. I made a distinction between troops and workers in post 122:

See point 2.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

The question posed was what other countries do not want Brits there (hence why I've tried keeping on topic in my replies mentioning foreigners in Iraq not just troops, and pointed out that the troops are there at the request of the Iraqi government).
BBKing (predictably) stated Iraq.
This is patently not the case.
Some Iraqi's don't want foreign troops there (tends to get in the way of killing each other).

If someone did a survey in Oldham, asking if foreigners should be forced to leave the country, you'd expect them to conclude that the majority of people want this, even if they asked 1000 people (the stastical number required to be asked). Now, they could claim therefore that the majority of people in the UK want foreigners to be deported, yet that isn't the case.
Likewise, if someone did a similar survey in certain areas of Iraq, you'd get varying conclusions.
Gotta love those statistics.
Then take into account the government was elected stating that it would request the presence of foreign troops for as long as required. So if the people were really against that, why didn't they vote for one of the groups stating they'd remove all the troops straight away?

I put it to you that you would denounce the Oldham survey and explain the reasonings behind it's flaws, but because of the emotive nature of Iraq, not give the same consideration publically to the Iraq surveys.
Eitherway, if the majority of respondants in a survey are to have their wish granted, would you be ok with foreigners being removed from Oldham?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

you make it sound like some tin pot back water with no resources or tech knowhow of its own, however its clear to most people that iraq is infact one of the worlds longest/oldest cultures etc.

and infact before the war , had the health service in line and modeled after the UK , masses of tech knowhow and the resources to finance that future growth,.

why exactly are these foreign workers there, for the massive pay packet they are getting compared to what they can get elsewere, the very same reason the UK are getting foreign workers here too, so they can earn far more than they do elswere.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

The elections were 18 months ago. Since then, things have only gotten worse, and from what I understand, the support for the presence of the troops has dwindled. But yeah, it probably was a dodgy survey... (insert irony smiley here)

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

And in spite of Philips' proposals, integration is not increasing and communities are becoming even more segregated. In the context of immigration (and you did go back to the Roman era) the riots in 2001 were recent. I can't see that any changes have been made that will stop this sort of violence occuring again, and the public have lost confidence in the mainstream parties to listen to their concerns. And the riots in NI (which is clearly a part of the UK) were about very specific grievances.

I don't read the BNP's literature, but I have read UKIP's and don't find anything to support what you have suggested. But if you want to supply a specific policy or quote from UKIP, I'll think again, of course. And as for using emotive languague, you have been at least as guilty of that than I have. But I think we will obviously disagree on that! Just how would you describe immigration at the present level? (Net 180,00 pa.) To describe it as "mass" was not a "trick" at all. :rolleyes:

In believing that people are incapable of making up their own minds after listening to the various commentators, I think you are being particularly patronising.

Mainstream parties without a doubt support immigration at levels are unprecedented in British history. (They even want Turkey in the EU.) I accept that you can't answer for Labour and the Lib Dems, but perhaps you know why the Tories do?

Yes, it is when comparing like with like, and I can’t really see the point of doing anything else.
1. Monaco
2 Macau S.A.R.
3 Hong Kong S.A.R.
4 Singapore
5 Gibraltar
6 Vatican City
7 Malta
8 Bermuda
9 Maldives
10 Bahrain
11 Bangladesh
12 Channel Islands
13 Nauru
14 Republic of China
15 Barbados
– Saint-Martin (France)
16 Palestinian territories
17 Mauritius
18 Aruba (Netherlands)
– Mayotte (France)
19 South Korea
20 San Marino
21 Puerto Rico (US)
22 Tuvalu
23 Netherlands
24 Martinique (France)
25 Comoros
26 Lebanon
27 Rwanda
28 Marshall Islands
29 Belgium
30 Japan
31 India
32 El Salvador
– Saint-Barthélemy (France)
33 American Samoa (US)
34 U.S. Virgin Islands (US)
35 Sri Lanka
36 Réunion (France)
37 Guam (US)
38 Haiti
39 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
40 Israel
41 Saint Lucia
42 Philippines
43 Burundi
44 Grenada
45 Trinidad and Tobago
46 Vietnam
47 Guadeloupe
48 United Kingdom

And with few exceptions (most notably Belgium and the Netherlands) none of those countries have accepted unrestricted immigration on anything even close to the level seen in Britain. And I’d still be interested to hear your thoughts on the quality of life for future inhabitants of this country. (Official predicted population increase of 10 million by 2075.)

You wanted to look at immigration in the historical context, didn’t you? I brought the Black Death up to one consequence of a falling population, and the Hugeunot immigration was tiny in today's terms. We are all free to believe whatever we wish.

;)

---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

Why?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

There were similar predictions regarding the influx of Irish workers over here working on the motorways.
Apparently by now we should be overrun by Irish, yet I'm pretty sure we're not.
Can you imagine why we aren't overrun by Irish when if the immigration rate at it's peak was assumed to be continual (ooo there's a clue!) suggested that by now they'd be in the majority?

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

There's the problem with quoting predictions. They assume a constant rate of immigration. It's possible that in the next 70 years or so that Immigration will slow massively (as it has with the Irish) or increase.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Exactly.
Look at all the British workers who spent time over in West Germany in the early 80's.
If the rate of immigration had remained the same, then eventually Brits would out number Germans.
In reality, the work was completed, no jobs=no reason to stay so the majority left again.
Likewise, if British schools suddenly started producing kids who wanted to be plumbers, builders, toilet cleaners etc, then there wouldn't be jobs for immigrants to fill, no job, no way of feeding or sheltering yourself, so you don't come here.
With Europe we have to also take into account that the UK is one of the few countries that allows them to come and fill the jobs Brits aren't willing to do.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

The quote you requested - Link
"The UKIP's manifesto promises "freedom from overcrowding" by pushing for an "end to mass immigration". It says illegal immigration is out of control and the UKIP would ensure Britain is "no longer the dumping ground for Europe's problems". The document's cover depicts three white babies with the slogan: "Concerned about their future? This is their country, make sure it stays that way." "

re "mass" immigration - 180k net per year, in 20 years that would be 3.2 million (out of the present 60 million) - 5% - new definition of "mass" I hadn't come across before (the Oxford Dictionary defines mass as "a majority of" or "a large number" - when did 5% become a majority or large number?) :dozey: And anyway, you are doing the old politician's trick of extrapolating a recent pattern into a fixed pattern for the future.

If you think I am being patronising in pointing out the difference between informing and inflaming, that is entirely your prerogative. However, you are doing it again, aren't you? - can you show me in any of the manifestos or policies of the parties you have named, that they support "mass immigration" (your words, not mine). I actually think you are being misleading when you present opinions as facts (Mainstream parties without a doubt support immigration at levels).

I thought I had already answered that - I think that the quality of life for future inhabitants of this country will be fine (global warming, fossil fuel depletion notwithstanding); I think they will do what all immigrants to this country have done - blend in, enrich our culture, and become part of Britain.

I am amazed you don't think that countries like the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Israel, Japan is comparing like with like, but that is because, once again, you have used the politician's trick of moving the goalposts - we were initially discussing population density, and you then changed it to immigration levels.:rolleyes:

btw, you are doing it again - changing the facts to support your argument - the UK does not have "unrestricted immigration" - but why let facts get in the way of a polemic, huh? ;)

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

No time to answer now, duty calls, but I'll be back tomorrow. ;)

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Our debate, scintilllating though it has been, is probably over, as, just like last time, it will (most likely) become a two-way conversation between a wet Tory and a not-so-wet UKIP supporter - fun for us, but v.v.v. boring for the other forum members. :D

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Three of them being my direct ancestors. Irish population of my borough - 3%.

There's a limited amount of brain time one can devote to people who draw straight lines on graphs in order to frighten themselves.

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

3%!!!!! OMG They're going to take over!!!!! *panic attack*
How would the 97% ever hope to stand up to them if they decided on forcing a Catholic state on us?
Think of the children!

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

Well, being a Catholic state, there would be lots of them.....:D

Speaking as a descendant of Irish Catholic immigrants ;)

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

My Dad's actually an only child! My brother-in-law, also Catholic, is one of four, though, so that redresses it slightly. The number of practicing Catholics isn't far off the number of practicing Anglicans these days (with Poles and other eastern Europeans coming in it may well be higher now...).

That 3% is those defined as Irish citizens who were denied their right to vote in 2005 due to a Hounslow bureaucratic cockup. There'll be more (like me) who are Irish citizens (which is 'having a parent or grandparent born there') who aren't counted because we're, er, integrated.

Light relief time - those of a strong stomach can look through the postings made by contributors to the Express forum. There's one (http://www.express.co.uk/users/profile/spaniel_lover) who thinks that immigrant women should be sterilised after their second child, and then there's this character:

http://www.express.co.uk/myexpress/profile/Robertz

His profile sets out his views fairly clearly:
Perhaps we can point Locky in their direction? On a serious note, it's more evidence for the suggestion that people who hold 'liberal-do-gooder-politically-correct-brigade' views are also likely to possess violently anti-individual quasi-fascist (and quite possibly misogynistic) opinions that have no place in a civilised society. Which is presumably why they read the Daily Getsworse in the first place.

I wish I knew what he had a comment removed for, if they allowed the one about forcibly sterilising women.

Bloody PC liberal do-gooder Daily Express, eh?!

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

I can't comment on a document I haven't seen and can't find any trace of. However UKIP (and UKIP Scotland) say the following about immigration (with no babies in sight). There is more on the UKIP website.
The only thing the party gets wrong, imo, is in thinking all British people want immigration brought under control. They're not policies that would suit everyone, but they are not racist policies.

Immigration is running at unprecedented levels. So again, how would you describe the scale of it as it stands now?

I have no objection to you expressing an opinion about whether a source "informing" or "inflaming", but I do object to your suggestion that adults are incapable of making up their own minds. Re-reading what I wrote, that much is clear.

And all mainstream parties support mass immigration because they have no credible policy to stop it. (And I'll continue to call it mass immigration until you come up with a suitable alternative.) The Conservative Party's policy is here but this post is long enough already without going into why it's not credible. But they at least acknowledged the problem ...
You "think" immigrants will do that. Numbers don't come into it apparently. OK, fine.

The Netherlands and Belgium are exceptions as I said. Germany and Italy are not more densely populated than the UK. Japan's population is not remotely built on immigration, and Israel exists because of immigration. And I think population density is inextricably linked to the immigration debate.

I haven't changed any facts (and that's rich from someone who, to put it kindly, was very quick to make an assumption here.) We view facts from different perspectives, and I'm sure you're sophisticated enough to understand that. But this debate will always be hotly contested and rightly so.

You could well be right. I don't know about you, but I feel some points just have to be answered regardless of how boring our discusion might be. :handshake

Re: Appalling stuff from the Daily Express
 

That's nice. How do they know it's going to remain constant at that rate?
Can I borrow their crystal ball to get next week's lotto numbers?

Interesting you mention Israel.
Despite spending what, around 40% of it's annual budget on defence, and having way higher proportions of immigrants than any other country, they're doing rather well wouldn't you say?
So why is immigration good for Israel but bad for the UK?