Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

When threads descend into one-liners and wise-cracks, they're not far off getting closed

The Wisdom of Towny

;)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

:rofl: Good one :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

To be honest I think there are harmful effects to mass religious belief in a society, no matter how moderate, it hinders the progression of science and humanity IMO. However, I do totally believe in anybody's right to believe anything, the most that can be done by anyone else is to debate, present scientific facts and hope for the best.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

You make it sound like people cannot believe in science and a religious-based belief at the same time.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Science and faith are entirely different. I believe you can't fully use both, but you can kinda compartmentalise the brain into choosing faith in certain occasions and science in others. And then there are questions like when to use science and when to use faith, and how do you make these decisions. To be honest using a mixture doesn't offer a secure system of knowledge imo.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I'm sorry but that's utter rubbish. I have faith and a belief in science (so do most Christians I know), as outlined above.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "aspects of science" after all, you did say you accepted evolution, just not of humans?

Appologies if I've got that wrong.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Isn't that what many christians seem to do with the bible as well.......choose to accept bits as literally true and reject other bits as being merely metaphorical?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Aspects of science, that might be more accurate. I don't believe in a lot of the closed-book stuff of science - I'm open-minded enough to be receptive to the notion that there might be something bigger than use which governs the rules of science and has plenty more up His sleeve which we are yet to understand (and indeed may never be able to).

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Yeah I know what you mean. But, I'm interested in what makes you accept certain conclusions reached by scientific evidence and reasoning (e.g. we evolved), and other conclusions that are reached by faith (i.e. God exists). You have no evidence for the latter, and the ways by which the two different conclusions are reached couldn't be any more different.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Eh? You are saying that you are open minded enough to accept what you already believe in?

---------- Post added at 17:49 ---------- Previous post was at 17:45 ----------

It's not rubbish......faith is by definition "belief that is not based on proof" whilst science is "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation"

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Faith doesn't need evidence, as we've long since established. I accept the parts of science which fit in with my views and beliefs.

Some of you seem to think we regard the Bible as the complete and unabridged history of the world - not so. I believe God put in the bible all we need to know - man went and tried to work out what we wanted to know. God gave humans the gift of intelligence and we've tried to use it to explain how things are. In many ways we're successful, in others not so.

You say about 'how we evolved'. Quite simply, we didn't. There's no evidence we came from apes. Admittedly there's a compelling argument, but there's always the good old 'missing link' which I jokingly refer to as the 'non-existent link'. Not seen it in a while but there's a site which gives a good argument against the notion of human evolution from primates, will try and find it later.

Anyway I am willing to accept there is more to science than we will ever understand or are capable of understanding. Science doesn't know everything, that's not to say science knows nothing, but it's important to differentiate between what science knows and what it believes.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

This is what I dont understand, well one of the things. If there is a god then it would govern science so why is there any problem. Why cant evolution have happened but it have been gods intention? I dont see why they cannot work perfectly well together, There are many scientists who are religious.

Its cases like the one this topic was based on that cause confusion and division. Trying to push a theory which less evidence against a established scientific 'fact' as if they are equally likely. The guy behind the museum even tried to claim dinosaurs were not meat eaters until Adam and Eve...Dinosaurs existed so long before us :confused:

If you ask me, which you didnt but still, the bible (or literal interpretation of it) is the biggest conflict between religion and science and the biggest obstacle to people becoming part of a faith. Since science has never proven that a god does not exist, but it has proven that some sections of the bible are impossible. Its when that confilict happens that causes these problems.

If there was no bible or better yet people did not take for fact then there would be no problem. Everything science proved would be created by god in the mind of those who believe in him and for the rest of us it would be whatever.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

That's not for you to decide though.

And a good thing too! The reason why it would not have happened (if you're asking me which you seem to be doing) is He created us in His own image.

You're falling in to the trap of assuming that all Christian believe exactly the same things - not so. Faith is personal. And I disagree with your last assertion.

Nah, I'd say it's misunderstanding and ignorance of the bible which causes that.

Which parts? :confused:

It's unlike you to be as opressive that, and I'm very surprised. Surely greater understanding of the bible and connected beliefs then there would be no problem. And that understanding should take place on both sides IMO.

You make it sound as if God has to be governed and explained by science.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I'd not thought of that before. I suppose he does have to be governed/explained by science (if he exists)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Could it not be that he created us in his image through evolution?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

My view is that He would have no need for that. Evolutions seems to be on the whole, an adaption based on environment. Genesis states He created us at the dawn of time in His image and there's nothing to suggest a deviation of that. God would not have to evolve (to suggest He does would imply He is subject to a power or need higher than Himself which would be contradictory) so I see no reason to believe we would evolve in order to 'keep up'.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

If that holds true, then why the need for other animals to evolve?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Did I not mention that earlier? The world is in decay and I believe some have needed to adapt in order to survive. The Bible makes it clear we are superior to animals (in an entirely respectful way of course) and we have no requirement to do the same as we are pretty adaptive as is.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

And the differences between the subspecies of humans?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I don't think we know enough about any supposed 'subspecies' to be sure.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Thats an odd statement.....Why do you think the world is in decay? ....and what do you mean by decay? :confused:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Mongoloids, caucasoids, negroids.
Human evolution into sub species or groups or races if you prefer.
If humans were created in god's image, and humans didn't evolve, then which image of humans is the same as god's?
Is god caucasoid (well he did say "I am" rather than "I is" it's that damn ancient joke again!) or negroid, or mongoloid?
If we all came from one pair of humans, and haven't evolved, then why are there different groups of humans?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well, Not proven wrong but unlikely. Also the Dinosaurs are much older than man. There is little dispute about that?

Sorry, I didnt find it opressive. I think that religion itself is fine but the bible seems to be what causes some conflict with science. Or maybe as you say not understanding it properly from both sides. The Koran is an example of where people misunderstand it (on both sides).


No, The other way around. If there was a god then anything that science proved would be a result of that god. I.E Evolution happens but it was god intention

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Don't you think that the bible was written to be interpreted by people thousands of years ago, who would perhaps struggle with complex scientific ideas and the such, maybe that is why it is so literal

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

What do you mean by closed-book? Do you mean that the concept of nothing beyond science?

---------- Post added at 19:02 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

Plus if god told us everything science wouldn't exist since everything about the universe was known.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Read Genesis. It won't bite.

By 'in God's image' I don't an actual image - I take that to mean humanoid.

There is little dispute that we don't know the age of T Rex and his mates. We only have guesswork to go on.

We're in agreement there :D

Ignorance (diliberate or otherwise) is one of the main reasons for that conflict.

I'm fine with that - but some people seem to think that God is subject to the same physical laws as us.

Back in the day, very few people knew how to read, so a lot was written in a way people would understand. Couple that with my earlier suggestion that God only included what we needed to know.

Yes, the notion that if science can't explain it then it doesn't exist. I can see where that comes from but I'm happy to look a little further.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

So you are basing your assumption that the world is decaying on your belief in the myth that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit? That before they did that, the world was perfect and not in decay?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

No, I'm basing my belief on the fact that Adam and Eve rebelled against God. And yes, as part of the result the world fell in to decay.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Without being too pedantic, in his day Newton made a list of things science couldn't explain yet, but no one would dispute the existance of them. I'm trying to find it.

Science is the practice of explain things that exist, in the case of god and miracles its the deciding if they exist or not which is the problem.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Oh I agree, but in many corners it seems science (and those who side with it) is of the opinion that unless you can see it, touch it, taste it or feel it then it isn't real. I can see the logic behind that but it's placing human restriction on powers which are above us.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Again without being too pendantic, scientists generally define something that exists as something that is observable or has an observable effect. Philosophically you can't disproof the existance of something that doesn't match this criteria. So in that respect we agree.

The common atheist arugment is you could use the arguement for the existance of god for virtually anything (the flying spagetti monster etc.). So its mainly for the sake of sanity and consistancy that they refuse to believe in god. Plus if something does exist and has no observable effects does it really matter if it exists or not?

But in your last sentence you are assuming that there are powers that are above us.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Not until people start demanding proof of what I believe in.

Yes and I think very few people would claim they don't exist.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

What makes you say that it's a fact.....It's never been proven?

---------- Post added at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------

We lets start with the myth of Adam and Eve then....

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well I would certainly say there are powers beyond us at the moment. The iphone has yet to be released, Q.E.D

I can offer no evidence what we are capable of in the future and, if anything, beyond that exists.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I called it that because you're being deliberately inflammatory. To me it's a fact.

As above. You have a history of only wanting to discuss it to ridicule and I have no reason to suspect otherwise now so is there any point?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

:tu:

I dont think people do, Expect in cases where we are debating the existance of god. You cannot really prove or disprove god so any arguements such as that are pointless. Although downquark1 makes a good point from my point of view that there are many things you cant disaprove which begs the question "Why that belief?" etc

I only talk about proof when a religion is disagreeing with science. Such as evolution, if your going to say its wrong then proof should be argued. Also Dinosaurs, there is a whole peroid of history in between the newest dinosaur bones and the first humans? Including a mass extinction and an ice age

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

That's as you're not a Christian! You won't see the challenges we get from other people. For the most part it's good natured questioning with a genuine interest but on many occasions (and especially in threads like this) people are deliberately critical, cynical and destructive. That's fine if people want to be like that but they then shouldn't be surprised when we don't want to answer them!

We don't have concrete evidence of when the dinos were around. There are compelling arguments but we only have assumptions. I believe they were also around during biblical times.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Eh? So you don't really think it's a fact; you just said that because you think I'm being inflammatory? :erm:



Hmmm......you often seem to retreat to this position when I ask difficult questions....

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

If you go with adam and Eve, and Genesis, then there wasn't an earth before biblical times, let alone anything else like the Jurassic era etc.

I don't remember Noah sticking 2 Pterodactyles and 2 T-Rexs on his Ark.

To believe in one thing you have to dismiss another or anything else for that matter. To say the world is in decay makes it an open door for a general wide open excuses, eg global warming etc.


Edited for spelling only.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The Bible did not list the animals if I re-call correctly.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

No, but I'm still pretty sure of 'the story'. Unless I'm missing something very major here.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

iirc, this point has already been quite effectively refuted on this forum way back....I can't be bothered to find the thread/posts..............

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I refrain from making certain statements out of respect for other peoples' views. It would be nice if others would return the gesture.

And I do believe it's fact.

If you were respectful with your 'difficult questions' then I'd be happy to discuss anything. But I'm sure we both know your position there.

As I said, I don't think the bible contains everything - only what we need to know. Yes I'm sure there were dinosaurs around then, I just don't think God found it imperative to have it included.

Neither do I - your point being....?

Really?? :confused:

I always thought global warming was the result of our actions?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I repect all views, but it should be allowed open for question or question for the intent of interest and for general knowledge.

I or anyone can have simple, complex, stupid, naiive questions about subjects like these, and if we don't 'understand' or god forbid (no pun intended) re-question using nothing more than simple logic, then we are often faced with the usual ignorance. (never a straight answer).

Now I like to think I have an open mind and I am no better than the next person, but this IS a discussion, (albiet it can be seen like a grinding, hopefully you don't see it like that), but are you ever wrong?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

What proof do you have that it's fact rather than fairy tale? The reason I ask is that you aren't prepared to accept the validity of the work of thousands of individuals, peer reviewed publications, and a mountain of fossil/radiocarbon/plate tectonic/magnetic pole fluctuation/etc data but you are quite happy to believe in a book written a very long time ago. You demand total concrete proof from science before you will accept the parts of it that you don't like but are conversely happy to accept the bible (or big bits of it) at face value!




You may make assumptions about my motives. I find it interesting that you always seem to retreat to this huffy position with me when the going gets tough.....

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I welcome questions from anyone with sincere intent, however there are plenty of those who only ask to ridicule. Those people I have no time for. If someone has a genuine interest then I'll answer to the best of my ability. Am I ever wrong? Of course I am, I'm only human. But I have my beliefs which make most sense to me and the more someone tries to remove me from them, the closer I get. I can take questions from someone who wants to learn more but from those who seek to debunk and criticise - go and find someone else.

Sorry, did you miss the part where I said "I believe it's fact"?

You must have me mistaken for someone else. I accept much of what science claims, the difference being when science says "It can't be because we can't prove it" I'm willing to look a little further.

You really need to stop posting things like that as if you know me. I don't demand anything of the sort from science.

Assumptions based on previous discussions and PMs from you. If I thought your motives were genuine then I'd happily discuss anything with you.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I didn't miss it. I'm wondering what basis you have for believing it's a fact; given that it's just something that was written in a very old book....what proof are you using to base your belief on?



Science doesn't say that it can't be so because it can't be proven. It actually says something like, 'we can't prove it but we're still looking'.



Wasn't it you who posted this in this thread?
Seems like you do actually demand pretty strict evidence from science that you don't seem to demand of the bible....
No-one witnessed the story of Adam and Eve either but you are happy to believe that as fact....

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

How would you explain that 'poof' God creates Adam and Eve in his own image then................what 'poof' creates Jesus as his son. What has he done in the last 2000 years?

er nothing, zip , nada. Did he put David Icke here? Why nothing new in nearly 200o years? I mean the bible was a good seller, normally you would expect a sequel. Is it because humans have become educated and as such able to distinguish between natural scientific happenings and religious waffle?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I've been over that countless times and from the following quoted post from you, you should already know judging from the attention you seem to pay the posts I made going back 18 months...

I'm equally flattered and uncomfortable that you store my posts from such a long time ago - in any case what I've posted there makes no such demands - I do now what I did then and always have done - I look at the options and chose which ones makes the more sense to me.

Yes.....because it's a belief...that's what a belief is, yes?

---------- Post added at 22:09 ---------- Previous post was at 22:06 ----------

You calling my God a poof?? :D

There isn't proof....because that's what a belief is, right?

Loving you, amongst other things.

No, it's because the bible isn't really a book, it's a collection of documents. But you knew that though, right?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I'm probably not going to post anything more as we will just end up going in circles. But I do have a genuine religious question. Since the old testament of the bible contains the jewish books and has rules such as kosher eating. Who or when was it decided which parts are jewish only and which parts are Christian?

I realise this in off-topic, but I don't want to start another religious thread for obvious reasons.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Wait til the next such thread pops up and ask then ;)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

As I said at the start, Faith is a faith and to everyone else its just a story. This is why it should not be taught in schools because while to some its a belief that they are sure of there are millions of other beliefs that people are sure of and they do not belong in schools. Evidence should be the requirement and I do not agree with those trying to get creationism to be taught in schools simply because they think they are right, the world is not run by religion anymore and while its fine that people hold these faiths it is not acceptible for them to try and get them into childs heads as a 'science' by misusing the school system

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Science is Science.Creationism is part of religious education.As long as they are taught in the right places on the timetable why are we having such disagreements?

Arguing with certain people's beliefs is so often pointless that I wonder why yet again we are back to the same arguments and the same stale mate.

Surely by now we know how these threads end up..so why do we keep flogging a deceased equine over and over? We always end up in the same place.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Ah but in the US, "they" want intelligent design or sometimes creationism taught as science.

I agree with the of the rest of what you said.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

As long as there are religious people, there will be pointless debates.

*prepares for barrage of neg*

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Replace religious people with philosophers and day time talk shows, and I would agree.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Replace 'people' with 'intolerance/ignorance' and you've got yourself a deal.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Yup, true I guess. And politics. Hmm there will always be pointless debates, but they are fun.

Please have mercy on me for my previous comment lol

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well that's in the US and it will always get short shrift from the US government because no one wants Science to be corrupted because at the end of the day Science is a huge money spinning subject.Nothing must get in the way of profit.;)

I'm pretty certain we will escape any such attempts here because the curriculum is decided by a central body which will decide on purely educational reasoning.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Isn't it also right that they don't allow religious studies in State schools, perhaps if they did, people thousands of miles away that feel no effect from it and have no influence over it, might not need to debate it over the internet ;)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

So what about in faith schools? Any objections to creationism being taught there as a science?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Again I'm being pedantic but I made the same point to my math lecturer, he made the point that technology is the money maker. The subtle difference is sometimes science is knowledge for knowledge sake and has no application for profit. Evolution really has little potential for profit.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

It's the smugness that gets me Russ, some people here could teach even the Catholics a thing or two about being smug

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

How long can the UK carry on teaching RE in schools before it starts to offend the other half of the class.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I think the Department of Education would though if only to make sure everyone gets educated to the same bog standard.They don't have any objection to ID being taught in RS though as it's already appeared on the curriculem.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Yes. Its still a school. Science is considered factual. Just because its a faith school doesnt mean that a theory of your religion should be misrepresented as a science. Just because their parents and teachers believe in it doesnt mean it should be taught as a fact to their kids. In the end isnt it spinning the reality to get them to conform to the religion of someone elses chosing? Regardless of the intentions being good?

Present the science as the science and the religious theory and the theory.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Because it doesn't offend the other half..parents are free to remove their children from RS lessons if it does.It doesn't happen often though because most people of faith appreciate that having a basic knowledge of other peoples faith and culture has the advantage of improving relationships between the differing faiths.Well it would if most students were even remotely interested in RS..The sad reality is most switch off mentally and call it boring.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Surely kids find most of school boring :disturbd:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Technology wouldn't exist without science.You have to have a basic scientific knowledge to develop technology.They go hand in hand.;)

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 23:05 ----------

Yep! I swear they only go to school for the social life.:D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well Darwin certainly didnt have a easy time with Evolution, I think his motive was science and maybe ego but not profit or to be liked.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

If God created Man in His own image - rather than human beings being the product of evolution - then how come the human body has various "design flaws"?

Similar thing for other animals... if created by God, rather than being the product of evolution, then why the "design flaws"?

Surely anything designed by God, with a fixed unchanging template, would be perfect?


Personally, I object to Faith Schools full stop.

However, if such schools must exist, they still should not teach Creationism or ID as a science - not in place of evolution, & not even alongside evolution. It's still a faith-based subject, still a matter of faith. Just 'cos a school may be a faith school, does not suddenly turn Creationism into a Science.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Ant that's what gets me about Religion. How can you toss aside the bit's of science that don't agree with your beliefs when science is based on facts. tangible things that can be reproduced?:confused:

This is what I find hard to understand about the whole thing.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Which design flaws?

Usually evolution in animals is based on the changing environment.

The bible states the world in in decay - nothing is as perfect as it was in Eden.

The majority of what you're calling facts I don't have a problem with. But there are some things which you'd likely call 'fact' which I'm not convinced about. Scientists use estimations about the age of the universe for example. This is seen by many as 'fact'. But how can an estimate be fact? I agree it's compelling, but not a fact.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

No answer then?


I don't store those posts :disturbd: They are stored on CF, I just did a quick search :D The point I am making is that you choose the option that has no objective proof, no research behind it and reject the one that does. You demand hard proof from science but not from the bible.



A belief isn't point to start a science lesson from.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I store all Rammy's posts, they go onto my ikkle shrine... :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Appendix, tonsils, to many teeth in our mouths stuff like that for a start

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

So Homo erectus, Homo neanderthalensis, Homo heidelbergensis etc as well?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Worshiping false idols or just stalking him :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The fact that most important organs are duplicated (lungs, kidneys etc), where as the one organ that we really need to live (the heart) doesn't have a duplicate.

Note: I haven't mentioned the brain. While this doesn't have a duplicate, it has enough redundant parts that it can operate (at least on a basic level) with a large part of it damaged.

---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 ----------

Does this mean God evolved as well? If we are in his image. j/k

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

To you, no.

I demand no such thing but if that's what Ramrod says then that's all that counts I guess.


I thought you were asking me about what I believe?

I have a website which touches on this, I'll provide a link when I get back from work.

No - humans.

What, Dr Who not good enough for you? :D

I don't really see that as a flaw - as long as it works.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Which humans though?
Homo sapians caucasoids?
Homo sapians negroids?
Homo sapians mongoloids?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

All of them and more. Every variety of human who lives or has lived is descended from the first, genetically perfect pair. ;)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Then why are there caucasoids, mongoloids and negroids if humans didn't evolve and don't need to change biologically due to their enviroment?
If we wiped out all the cuacasoids, would they cease to be human?
If not, then how can you not include homo erectus for instance in the group of "image of god"

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

A handy way of avoiding giving an answer.....:rolleyes:



link You aren't willing to accept that evolution happened because no one was there to witness it. ie....in your mind, evolution must be witnessed before you will accept that it occured....




Only because you are the resident christian arguing here and this thread is about creationism etc......you have stated that it should be taught in science classes so so I am using your views to argue why we shouldn't have creationism taught in science lessons......

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Now hang on ... I don't recall putting any of those suggestions to you :p:

If you go for a strictly Biblical Creationist point of view, rather than the more general Intelligent Design approach, then the book of Genesis recalls God's command to creatures to reproduce after their kind. A bird is still a bird, whether it's a finch or a sparrow. A human is a human, whether black, white or whatever. Variations within kind are not excluded by Genesis. "Evolution with a little 'e' " is a familiar concept to Creationists.

As for the nature of Homo Erectus - I am struck by the way visual interpretations of 'early hominids' have changed over the past century or so. We have gone from picturing Neanderthals as stumbling, stooping, low-browed man-apes to believing we would not easily spot one if he passed us in the street wearing a suit. And Homo Erectus is to all intents and purposes an anatomically modern man. The differences are in the archeology associated with him, his material culture, not his physiology.

I believe the fossil and archaeological record gives us a range of extinct human races and a range of extinct ape species with no necessary progression from one to the next.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

You stated that animals evolve due to enviromental changes but humans did not, are you now saying that isn't the case, animals do not evolve either?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

That's not what I'm saying. I believe humans have varied, I'm just pointing out that even committed evolutionists do not regard that the available evidence shows as much variation as once thought.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Remember Evolution is natural selection. Its not animals changing to meet their enviroment its the enviroment killing those not best suited for it.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Pah sorry Chris, mistook you for Russ earlier as you answered a question I posted to him.

Russ, if you get a chance, could you answer my question in post 182 please?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Not at all, just going on previous experiences I don't trust your motives.

I'm not saying I don't accept it - and please don't put words in my mouth - I'm saying I don't accept it's as black-and-white as that. I'm open to the notion that it's more than just what science has told us.

Where did I say I thought it should be taught in science classes?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

No, I'd call it an estimate - however it is an estimate based on calculations that are derived from measurable phenomenon where by the experiment that created the data is repeatable.

That's what science is - deducing information about something from the data gleaned from repeatable experiments.

The age of the universe is calculated on data that was produced in an experiment that you or I could do again (if we had the money and time). Thus it has credibility and is for me more believable that something written in a dusty book.

It doesn't fit in with most religious peoples views of the universe so they discount it even though they could take the measurements and calculate the age themselves. THIS is what I don't get. Throwing out facts (or estimates based on facts) that don't fit in with what's written in a book.

I don't mean to offend anyone (I just don't understand) but I just can't see how any sane person can do that. How is belief in something written in a book greater than belief in facts?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

True, although I'm sure you don't mean to gloss over the fact that in such calculations, certain assumptions are made because aspects of the calculation are not measurable in any sense. The speed of light, for example. There is absolutely no way, short of inventing a working TARDIS, of establishing that the speed of light has always been constant. If it has not, then an awful lot of deeply cherished theories about the age and state of the universe are worthless.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well yes, if it turns out universal constants change based on time or space. (light entering an autobahn), then my education is pretty much screwed and physics goes back to the drawing board.

Fairly certain the speed of light has no bearing on evolution however, except possibly increasing or decreasing the probability of skin cancer.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

No, but as a side issue it is illuminating ... :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Except if it hadn't been constant*, then the universe wouldn't work the way it does.
Crossword puzzles are a perfect example of how scientific deduction works.
You take something you do know (4 across, 6 across and 7 across) and use it to confirm something else (3 down)
You don't take 4 across and presume what 3 down is alone.
By 3 down fitting with 4,6, and 7 across, you then use those and other evidence (the clue) to work out what 5 down is, and from that you move on.
Each one bolstering another.
So if the speed of light wasn't constant throughout history, then other non-light specific observations wouldn't hold.
One of the arguments for a young earth given by the JW's is the non-exact date ranges given by carbon dating, where something is given as being between x and y years old.
They ignore that these figures can be backed up via non-carbon related dating methods.

*To say it is constant is a misnomer, as we all know it depends on the medium that it is passing through, a more accurate statement would be that it behaves consitantly, however I don't want to get too complicated.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Our assumptions on the speed of light as a constant do ring true when we us the figure in other calculations like those of electron/particle physics. So we have a fairly good idea that the figure we have now is o.k. and as for it changing over time there's no evidence that this is the case. Should evidence of the contrary appear then the date will change. However the date some religious people have bares no relation to the data gleaned.

How can that be?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

C14 dating is a whole different ball game - it doesn't even address 'geological time', is useless beyond about 75,000BP and of limited use even back to about 2,000BP (depending of course on how precise you want to be - you could never use it to date the Saxon invasion of East Anglia as it would return a date range of hundreds of years). Recognising this, archaeologists have invested a lot more in dendrochronology in recent years.

As for your crossword analogy - it works for what is presently observable, but I don't see how the analogy addresses the question of whether light has always been a constant?

What else wouldn't work about models of the ancient universe if the speed of light were different?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The interaction and creation of matter from energy, the amount of background radiation present in the universe would be inconsistant, singularities, gravitational attraction of particles, electromagnetic interaction, etc.

As for the crossword analogy, you don't have to observe the clues for every answer to be able to complete it.

Dendrocronology is one of the many techniques used to calibrate C14 dates.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Nope, but you can at least see how many answers there are.

Are we certain that in cosmology we even know what all the questions are yet? ;)