Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Okay :dozey: someone's spent too long doing nothing with his life accept posting on forums, 1,210 posts = sad, and your 37 and have poor grammer.
get a life.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Handy hint - if you are going to criticise someone's grammar, best to spell it correctly.;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You are opening yourself up to lots of spam by putting your email address in there like that, I would suggest you request a mod to change it to something that cannot be picked up by bots.

Also, I fail to see how it's illegal and your welcome to challenge it but the last person who did that paid a wooping fine. Unless you have absolute proof you did not download the alleged game, then you are fighting a losing battle.

Download copyrighted works, especially over P2P or Torrents where you are sharing the file as well. That is illegal, not filing lawsuits against people.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I thought the reason that happened was because she didn't turn up to the hearing, so the prosecution was able to get a default judgement against her?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Actually, if you work it out, if you stay here as long as 'Charlie _bubble' has, it would work out you would have more posts than him. His daily post count is 0.64 and yours is 2.66.

So come to think about it, how is posting not even 1 post on a forum a day, sad?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Correct.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It would seem more letters can be expected shortly by those who haven't yet learnt...
Linky

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I've never downloaded anything in my life. They are alledging the download of Test Drive Unlimited and claiming £565.00. I contacted them and explained, without prejudice, that if anyone did download it, it would have been a 13 year old child. I told them I was on benefits and couldn't pay the amount. They instead sent out a payment schedule which would end up costing me £665! There have been numerous arguments, tears and tantrums in this house. I can't sleep or even eat properly.

The computer was a gift from his dad, I got broadband when I was working and subsequently re-negotiated my telephone so I could afford it. I've got a daughter who was 3 at the time of the alledged offence, she is lovely but demands my attention all the time. I've had people telling me that I'm a bad parent for not keeping a closer watch on my son, all I can say to that is his dad installed the computer and I assumed he knew what he was doing re internet settings etc. I'm not very computer literate myself. I can't believe I am the only person to be in this position. Before this happened I was more worried about internet grooming than this stuff. Between my son and myself, looking at this letter, then we do not think that any copyrights were infringed, however I am sure that DL will not accept this and rely on their own evidence as they have previously done in court.

If they get a judgment against me then what will happen? I have no property or assets. I can't work now my daughter is at school, rather than day nursery, as there is no out of school provision in this area and there are very few jobs that are only term-time and school hours! (No I don't feel I could be a childminder).

They might as well take me to court for £16,000 as £665 because either amount is out of my reach. I'm a nervous wreck.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Have you asked how they got your details?

Posted by Martin Pitt here

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You need to go and see your local CAB in the first instance. They will be able to point you in the direction of some sound legal advice. It may be, upon legal representation, that Davenport Lyons back off you. It seems that they are trying to make a swift buck and might be shy of actually fighting a contested court case (which would be expensive for them, with no guarantee of success).

However, *if* DL pursues you, and *if* you get a court judgement against you, the Court will assess your circumstances and there's no reason to think that the total amount you would pay, or the monthly instalments, would be anything like what DL are currently asking of you.

There are all sorts of holes in the line DL are taking with this; for starters the methodology by which your computer's IP address was captured, and the way in which they have calculated your liability (it is doubtful that they have any hard, scientific method by which they can even estimate how many complete copies of the computer game in question may have been shared from your PC, if indeed any complete copies have been shared at all).

But you would need a solicitor to engage the right sort experts in order to be able to argue this case with DL. Go down to your CAB and start the ball rolling.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I did see CAB and sent off the letter they advised me to send. However DL have power and resources that I just don't have.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

There is something quick sick about what Topware and DL are doing, there is no way the game would ever have reached the sum they are claiming they lost though 'privacy'. They are basically suing people to earn money they would not otherwise have earned.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I asked my son if he had ever downloaded the game and his reply was who would bother...which was pretty much my reaction.:shrug:

It's not even a game I would want free, let alone to file share for...

Does anyone own this game legitimately or would even own up to owning a legal copy?In other words have they made any money from selling it legally?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Test Drive Unlimited is quite a good game. And one that I reckon has been downloaded many times.

As for the pinball, that was more of an entrapment ploy. Anyone who had an amiga must have played Pinball dreams/fantasies as that was one of the top titles going at the time, so if I saw it I'd have gone for it if I had the means just to see if it was better than the old versions.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I had a demo for the amiga CD32 which I threw away in disgust..it was the most appallingly tedious game.Give me Robocod anytime which I can STILL play on the CD32...;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Yeah it's each to their own isn't it. But I don't see what your preferences though has anything to do with the situation, people have downloaded it so there is a market for those types of games.

As for the game being any good I don't know, but I seriously doubt it, and I doubt that it sold well to start with, so I'd go on the assumption that it was put on the p2p scene to make money this way.

They've been kicked out of other countries and been classed as illegal, so it's about time they get kicked out of this one, but something tells me that they won't be going anywhere soon.

Oh and yeah Robocod was excellent too. ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If you're on benefits you might get legal aid. Go see a solicitor

The company will have to show, on the balance of probability, that you've caused them loss.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

The poll should be different and the last option should be I did not get a letter but did download the game and it should be anon. Those that did not get a letter does not really tell us anything

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I can't get Legal Aid for this - I've tried everyone and everywhere. For the record, my son had bought Test Drive Unlimited for a different format. He saves up his Christmas and Birthday money and buys original games. In the intervening time he trades them in at Gamestation or such like and gets other pre-owned.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Legal aid is only available in criminal cases I believe, this matter is a civil case.

As for owning the game that fact isn't taken into consideration as the accusation is that you shared the game..If they were accusing you of just downloading the game then all they could charge would be the cost of the game plus costs of finding out your details and administration...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Hi all,

I've received a letter regarding infringement copyright for the test drive unlimited game. AND yes - i didn't do it!

I've sent a reply to DL in response to their request for payment on behalf of Atari, and I've informed them I dispute this. Our internet connection wasn't secured at the time of the download and apparently the IP addresses, I have been informed by Virgin Media are dynamic and not static - so how can I prove the IP address they've quoted wasn't mine at the time of the download. (surely its the upload not download, so they need to prove its been uploaded from us??, just a thought) The letter was sent 2 weeks ago and I'm still waiting for a response from them. Upon the letter being received they requested that they receive payment within 21days.. So hopefully they will contact me soon. I'm so worried as its been quite a struggle financially lately for us, so we can't afford legal proceedings etc - I just wish they'd reply and let us know whats happening next.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

An unsecured network is no defence...as it's in VM's T&C's that you are responsible for who/what is connected to thier network.

Also the dynamic IP's are logged as to which account had them at any point in time. The request by them to VM for the IP info would detail the exact time that the infraction took place and VM will give them the exact users details..

As for upload that's simple, they just had thier P2P client going and logged every IP/DATE/TIME that could provide them with a segment of the requested file.. Just about anyone with a P2P client can do the same

---------- Post added at 14:02 ---------- Previous post was at 13:59 ----------

The only defence you might have is whether the records show the IP was registered to a local UBR as cloned modems might show up as a seperate UBR out of your area...All you can do is to ask for the evidence that DL possess but that'll probably be in the letter which also should hopefully include the rDNS of the IP

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

has anyone had any replies off davenport lyons,need some more updates to whats happening.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

That's only relevant to your contractual agreement with VM. It has no bearing on the accusation of copyright infringement. Does anyone know if English law has a positive obligation to secure your wireless network? In this case you might be able to cite common carrier provisions of that EU Directive I have completely forgotten the name of. Because in effect, you have infringed content without knowing. Just like the ISP has. Unless there is an obligation to secure your network.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If your proposition is true, then the insurance companies won't be very happy, as their contracts state (usually) that they won't pay out if you have taken adequate precautions to secure your property/car/belongings. I don't remember anything in English Law (besides common sense, and I am not sure there is a lot of that in law) that states you have to secure your property, etc.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

They kind of cover your obligation here with regards securing your network


http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...ble/terms.html

Terms and conditions for your residential customer service agreement

D Using our services

You agree to take responsibility for all liabilities, claims and losses which are in any way connected with misusing the services supplied to you under this agreement, or with getting our services without our permission, and to fully repay us if we suffer any costs or losses of this kind. This also applies if you do not meet your responsibilities under this section D.

Fairly clear and points the finger directly at the customer.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

But only with a view of protecting VM's ass (and rightly so, if I was VM).

It's not a legal binding contract with regard to third parties claiming copyright infringement - it simply says that VM require that you (the customer) take all responsibility for your connection to ensure VM cannot be claimed against. Otherwise VM would be just as liable as the customer - they "allowed" the network to carry this alledged data.

Where (in UK law) does it state, or where has a precidence been set, where an end customer is responsible for his connection (in a civil case remember - no point compairing this to a child porn download - criminal Vs. civil).

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Nothing to do with UK law...it's a civil claim so innocent till proven guilty is thrown out of the window in fact it's actually harder to prove your innocence in a civil claim than a criminal one as a criminal one has a standard or proof that needs to be met before you;re found guilty. You can bet for sure that the claimant will be waving VM's T&C's in front of the judge which the judge will not throw out but will include in the case as contractual proof that you were supposed to secure your own network....

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:53 ----------

That is the point of my post in a Civil Court your more likely to be found guilty.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I'd have used the word liable more than guilty as you'd be liable to pay compensation...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I was forgetting it was a Civil court we were talking about, so liable is correct.;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

There is currently no president in UK law for this, but rulings in Europe (notably Germany) so far have suggested that having an insecure wireless network is a valid defence. It is most likely acceptable in the UK too - people have been prosecuted in the past for using unsecured wireless networks without consent so it appears to be similar to someone entering your home via an unlocked door.

It's also worth baring in mind that WEP is not secure - it can be broken in a few minutes. Some equipment only supports WEP, and it's difficult to see how a court would rule that someone who set up WEP security and was hacked would then hold them liable.

You would also not legally be liable for failing to secure your network. If someone steals your car and commits criminal damage while joyriding, you are not liable for the damages because you didn't fit an immobiliser. If someone uses your photocopier to copy pages from a copyrighted book, again you are not liable - they are.

In civil law it is a balance of probabilities, i.e. they need to prove there is a 51% chance or more that you did it. Having dealt with this type of situation before in Small Claims Court (which uses the same system) I can assure you that judges do not simply rule based on some flaky evidence, especially if you have a reasonable argument as to why it wasn't you.

Think about what you are saying for a moment - I could sue anyone for copyright infringement of something I made up, produce a doctored screenshot or two of uTorrent with their IP address (or just frame their IP address, also trivially easy) and force them to give me money.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Very true, probably why they'd have at least some IT expert to swear that the logs is correct and probably confirmed by VM's own logs...

I think that's the major problem here is that the letters are very light on information as to how they've got the IP's and yes the UK does need a court case where the defendant actually shows up and defends themselves thus all the evidence will have to be shown..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Can I ask a dim question, if someone was using a modem that is not Vm's with all the trimmings and download the game who would get the letter?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Probably no-one as I presume that VM would at least check that the IP/MAC and UBR all tie up with the customers records before they give out information, otherwise they're in breach of thier own privacy rules even if there is a court order

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

i had this happen well over a year ago when i was with AOL i got letter from them asking for nearly £600 i wrote on back of letter in a big red marker to **** **f and posted it back.

never heard anything else about it to this day.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You would hope so, However i would not trust them to do that and would push for that information.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

can you buy this game in the shops? or is it only available by the net?

who cares, I would not trust any letter that started dear sir/madame

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I had a battle with microsoft a while ago over breaching their copyrights and intellectual property rights, by selling their stuff on Ebay (100's of their CD's). They went to town on me with threats of court action etc and fines in the thousands. Everybody told me to drop it, as they were the "big boys" and knew what they were doing. But who won at the end of the day?????????
ME
And I've had god knows how many sellers asking me how I can sell these without Ebay removing them, or MS Vero UK fining me. It's simple really, learn your rights, and then use them.
Yep, that's Microsoft apologising to some little man in west Yorkshire, because they thought they were better than me :D.

Do your homework on the subjects needed to defend yourself. You need exact details on exactly how you have breached copyrights. Unless you have directly uploaded this whole game (or what ever) to one or more persons, you have not distributed the whole game, just a small portion of it in the form of a data packet. They also need to prove who you have distributed it to, in the form of actual people (not just other IP's). As it's a civil case, the weight of proof needed for them to win isn't as high as that needed in a criminal court. BUT there still has to be proof of physical distribution of the whole game, for them to lay claim to you distributing their product (that means the whole game). The exception is if their claim states "a whole or part" of their copyrights protected material. Then they would need to show what parts you distributed, or how much of their data you sent over. You see, some parts of their product will not be covered by copyrights, and that may have been the part distributed in your data packets.
Example: This forum software is covered by copyrights, but some of the codes (php html etc) used in it's layouts etc are not. It's only when you copy the whole software package, that you then breach copyrights.

Think about it. Have you uploaded the whole game to one or more persons, or just little bit's of it to many ;) :angel:

PS: They also need to prove that you and the person downloading it from you, did not have a genuine copy of said product.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

good info

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but that's between you/me and Virgin Media.

A third party is not privy to the contract, there's a doctrine in contract law, 'privity' of contract which means 3rd parties cannot be binded by contractual obligations or benefit from them. I know there was a Contract Rights of Third Parties Act but that won't affect this situation. VM's contract has 0 to do with legal liabilities for you, it only saves their asses if you get sued.

It's been ages since I've opened a contract law text book, was like 5 years ago now. A couple years ago I am pretty sure I remember reading a case about an internet cafe that gave the option for burning downloaded files onto CD, that was very relevant to all this. So if anyone wants to look that up... Again I think the common carrier provision may apply to leaving a wireless network open, because you are, de facto, a service provider. Check this post out

I wrote something at uni about cliaments not being able to prove P2P file sharing causation as it won't satisfy the balance of probabitlies test, much like asbestos poisoning since P2P is a chunk based system, unlike FTP. Since each defendent only harmed the D partially, you cannot satisfy the test of causation which requires >50% ('all or nothing', 'winner takes all' it's called) unless courts invent law to support your case. I can see the justice in people dying of black lung in making up laws, but not in copyright infringement lol

And it's a joke to say you're gulity in a civil case, as a poster above said it's a balance of probabilities test. In most cases if you don't have many assets it is worth taking any company to court. Firstly they will be worried they wont cover costs, since if you have no assets they have nothing to take.

And also it doesn't take years of training to understand a narrow area of the law, infact it takes maybe a couple months. So you can become an expert in a short period of time, so its worth knowing your rights, researching and engaging in a legal argument with the people trying to sue you. They will try and drown you in legal jargon but in reality the only thing they normally have is a ton of muscle (money) and little else.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

That's exactly what I did with my battle with Microsoft. They came at me with all kinds of legal crap, so I looked it up, and threw it back at them 10 fold :D The internet is a great tool, so make use of it. If there is a loop-hole or way around things, someone has usually posted it on the net somewhere;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Someone must already have this info, because in order for it to go to court all parties need to be provided with copies of all the evidence. Even if you don't turn up, they would have to send you the evidence in the post if they want to go to court.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I did say guilty was wrong as its actually liability as Kymmy said so read my next post where I agreed, and do remember it is up to you to prove your not liable to the Judge, much harder with evidence showing what came through your connection in front of the Judge on paper.

Also remember I was on about protecting a Wireless connection, if you do not do so and your neighbour hammers your connection and you are prosecuted, the blame still lies with you because the body of proof such as download records are only showing your records.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Are court records of evidence publicly available?? If so then that evidence should be attainable

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Exactly. It's also why tools like Westlaw and Lexis need to be free. It's amazing how you have to actually pay to get access to the laws that govern you! But if anyone is going to battle this and wants good info just get in contact with someone at a uni, they can then provide you with their proxy/athens details and you'll get access to all sorts of online legal resources like journals where this sort of stuff is discussed but isn't available though google searches.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Statutes are virtually useless without case law to interpret them or analysis if it hasn't been tested though. Those things aren't available for free.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Would you like someone copying your software and uploading to verious download sites for other people to download for free?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Yes they are.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Why ask me that question? I've not broken any laws by doing what I did with MS, neither did they have a civil case against me.
But as you have asked me: I've had my stuff stolen and put on sites for free downloads, and guess what, 9 times out of 10 I get them to take it down. The others I just can't be bothered following up, as it's not worth it.
Here is one from the other week:
The laws are there to protect all, and if a large company is abusing/bending the laws to obtain money, why shouldn't jo public fight their corner?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

So let me get this straight. When you dont want people using stuff that is yours, you get them to stop it. When someone asks you to stop using theirs, you wont.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

he was reselling the genuine article where is the infringement?
read post 140

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

NO.:confused:
When someone breaches my copyrights, I ask them to stop (as I am entitled to do so).
When a company makes false claims of copyrights law breach against me, I don't sit back and take it. It's that simple, and not too hard to understand really:rolleyes:.
My case with MS is documented and proven, and I was in the right. They admitted they were in the wrong, and apologised (as seen in the email I quoted from Microsoft).
You may not like the fact that I took them on, and they backed down, but it is a fact that it happened.
In this case, there are many issues with the company's claims of distribution against individuals. And a lack of physical proof as to what parts of the game were downloaded from each person. In reality, the only person/persons who could be shown as distributing the whole game, are those who first offered it as a torrent/download. They were the only ones to distribute the whole game to a single person. From that point on, people only distributed a "part" of the game. Can this company prove what part, or how much they distributed?
With my dealings with www.ewallpapers.eu , I went for the site owner, and the original up-loader. I guess I could have tried it on with all the 4560 people who downloaded my image illegally, but that would have made me like Davenport Lyons.
Anyway don't try and make out I have double standards. I didn't breach Microsoft's copyrights, so I was in the right. And I was also in the right when I acted against someone breaching my copyrights.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Never said there was an infringement, I just think its double standards regardless of wether there is a copyright on it or not. He wouldnt like people making money of software he has made be it copyrighted or not and neither do Microsoft. But its what Ive come to expect of people living on this planet, as everyday goes by, its more about me, me, me and dont give a stuff about anyone else.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It's not double standards, one is breaking copyright the other is re-selling products legally.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Are you for real?
Microsoft had already made their money on the item I was selling. I was making my little bit on top, in the same way any shop/retailer does. As I was (and still am) Microsoft registered (Microsoft Partner ID: 1556078), and doing it all legally, I've got every right to earn a living. And I was earning it by selling the items at a much lower price than any other seller. Other Ebay sellers complained, and Microsoft assumed I was selling fake goods. They then changed the claim to not selling within the EULA and System builders agreement (as I proved it was a genuine Microsoft product), but they were wrong on that point too. I proved them all wrong, and Microsoft are happy for me to sell the items on Ebay.

One thing worse than double standards, is people who think they know what they are talking about, and judge others on their preconceived ideas.
When you know what you are talking about, feel free to make a judgement. Until then, keep your argumentative, discriminative, and ill-informed comments to yourself. :td:
Please think before you reply.

PS: Sorry for drifting off topic. That is the end of the matter.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

So you would be happy for me to take a peice of software you had made and for me to gain financially out of it? I dont think you would, no matter what you say, as anyone doesnt like that.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thats what Amazon do, Game do, PC World do. They re-sell software :confused:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

People make money from my photographs now, and I'm happy for them to do so, as I've made my bit, and given them a licence to do it.

END OF CONVERSATION

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

With a license most likely. Now we know he won the case, but before he knew that, he had no license to be selling stuff that belonged to microsoft.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thank you.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

As if I didn't know that:confused:

Anyway, just been looking on a few sites, and it seems many are working on the fact that they have to prove it was the person in the claim who breached the copyrights. So unless you are a single occupancy household, with wired connection and no visitors, they would have great difficulty proving that.

Section 16(2) Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988
Without proving the above, the case fails;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

People know they have the game illgeally (downloaded when they didnt even own the original copy) In basic terms, thats theft, but they aint man enough to own up to it and try to wriggle out of it. It will be the same people who try to wriggle out of speeding fines, parking fines, litter fines.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Problem is, there are MANY respondents who didn't knowingly download it, or have no knowledge of it. There are also those who downloaded it, and did not upload it/use it. They have done nothing to breach the copyrights, and are therefore being falsely accused;)
Example:
A household of 2 adults and 2 kids have got the letter. It's the VM account holder who is the respondent (details given by VM), but he/she has no knowledge of the download (or what ever). Maybe it was one of the kids who downloaded it, but that does not make a case against the VM account holder.
Yes they are responsible for the use of their VM account (that is not in question). But they did not "authorise another" to breach the copyrights of a third party, so the case fails on section 16(2) of the CDPA.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

How would the case fail, the game was still downloaded by a person living in that household, be it the Virgin Media account holder or not.

And are you trying to say I can download anything legally aslong as I dont upload it? That cant be true.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Source? Unless you're talking about a trip to the British Library.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Says who?? please provide proof of someone who downloaded it but didn;t know they did??

Any P2P software will only download software which you select... even if it's renamed the HASH which people like Davenport Lyons realy on stays the same, selecting the details/properties of the post will give you every single filename it's known as..

In the end there is no straight defence, though there is people who will eventually find a loophole...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

And thats what I dont like. Like I said, it will be the same people who try their hardest to get off from speeding/parking/litter fines. Not man enought to admit they did wrong.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Case would fail because the respondent was not the down-loader, or authorising another to download. They authorised a third party to use their connection to the net, not to breach copyrights. You can not be punished, fined, charged or found guilty for the actions of a third party. Even if they knew/asked them to do it, the only charge/offence would be solicitation

Downloading is a gray area. The act of downloading is not a breach of copyrights, unless you distribute. However, by downloading, you are allowing another to breach copyrights. In the case of p2p networks, you both download and share at the same time, thus breaching copyrights in the share aspect of your action.

Kymmy, it's this simple. The respondent is the person named by VM to Davenport Lyons, and the person named in the claim. If their kids (or who ever) downloaded it without their knowledge, they can claim no knowledge of the download. Remote trojan access downloading the file is another one, and it's one that is already being put to Davenport Lyons ;)
These may be of interest too:
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/03/28/uk_share_hunt/
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Briti...ls-92488.shtml
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/12...file_sharers/1

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Downloading IS in breach of copyright if what you are downloading has a copyright on it, it is as simple as that. You would be downloading something you do not own the rights to and have not paid for. Downloading in this manner is theft, whatever way you look at it. Theft from who is is irrelvant.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

No it's not. You, yourself have just downloaded to your PC copyright protected text, images and logos by viewing this page, yet you are not breaching copyrights?????????????
Read what is in the 2nd link I posted. Even the Lawyers are saying it's not a breach under UK laws.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

So what you;re telling me is the parent should NOT be responsible for thier childrens actions?????

---------- Post added at 19:15 ---------- Previous post was at 19:11 ----------

Sounds to me like there's two camps here...

Those who think that if you or anyone on your connection downloads copyrighted data should have to face up to thier own consequences....

OR....


Those who download and think that they have a gods given right to bypass anyones intellectual rights to software/music/performing arts copyright....


need I say more???

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Erm, what would be the point of having a forum website when everything is copyrighted and whoever came onto the website was in breach of copyright. What you said is simply not true. Downloading something you dont own and dont have the rights to is theft. You may aswel walk into a shop and steal it.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

What I'm saying is the person legally named in the claim, may not have knowledge of the download. They can therefore not be held accountable for the actions of a third party. That's not that hard to work out, or see as a reason for them defending against the claim.

Those are the terms of CF, and they own the copyrights to their graphics and published material. Fact is you download copyrights protected material every day when on the net. It's what you then do with it, that creates a breach of copyrights.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Topic?

Is there anyone else who has had a letter?What are you going to be doing about it?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

A lot of talk here, but the only people winning are the copyright owners where evidence is supplied that an ISP connection was used to breach current copyright law. Until somebody can prove that they have had a successful defence of the claim against them, or some news on a pending court case where the defendant is actually going to fight the claim, that's all it is......

Talk.

It's a shame really, because I'm sure there are people out there who could use some help in this matter, not personal opinion from people who don't understand copyright law.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Good morning, I am new to the forum. I have received one of these letters from Davenport Lyons just a couple of days ago. It came as a bit of a shock.
I am being accused of downloading a car driving game in August of last year, not something a 64 year old lady would be interested in at all. I am going to my local CAB for help and advice. I'm sure though that I have never downloaded this game, and am wondering why I should pay this firm £565.00 and sign a disclosure to say I won't do it again when I didn't do it in the first place. I have found the letters on this forum very interesting. Of the people who have received the letters, how many have paid and why do the payments vary so much. Also why so long in contacting people, 6 months to
contact VM and then 2 months to lodge with court and then a further 6 months before sending out the letter to me. I have to say I am so worried about this, and what happens if I am told I have to pay and don't have the money to do so.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

For all you guys with letters:
Send in your defence/denial of the copyrights breach, and request their evidence of the breach. (Important you do this, as they are only taking none responders to court, as these are the only cases they can win by default)
If they reply with their evidence, look through it, and see if your defence still stands on a balance of probability.
If they give you a court date, here is the solicitor representing the respondents for free:
http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...fringement.htm
If you or your solicitor don't turn up, a default judgement will be made in their favour.

On checking, I've now read 2 cases where people paid up (out of fear of court action), and then got demands for more money, for other claimed breaches.
Whatever you do, do not pay a single penny, or say anything in your replies that could be turned against you.;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Can you honestly say that you had no-one else use your internet connection?? For example a niece/nephew/grandchildren staying with you for the weekend?? I only ask as that'll be the first question the courts or Davenport-lyons would ask you do disprove :( Can you also honestly say that you do not have any P2P software installed.... One point that people don;t realise is that you might actually download software called one thing that is actually something else.. As you download it it shares that software out...It's only when it's fully down or you actually bother to look at the Hash for it you realises that you've done it...

The letters have probably taken so long as it would have been on a schedule that started off with monitoring the P2P network for a few months gathering data... Then they would had to ask a court to grant them rights to the account details of all those recorded...This then would have taken time for the ISP's to respond

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I don't get why people are pushing this " it's your connection used, so the account holder is the guilty party"
The terms of the agreement with VM state that:
"You agree to take responsibility for all liabilities, claims and losses which are in any way connected with misusing the services supplied to you under this agreement"
This contract term is there to take VM out of any claims like this, and make the claimants go directly to the account holder. It is not a term that can be used in a court to make you pay for someone else's downloading activity (be it family, friends or someone abusing your wireless), unless it is VM taking you to court for a breach of their contract. It is a contractual term between you (the account holder) and VM, not between you and any third party who claims you have broken copyrights laws. This is why the claims are address to the account holders, and not any other member of the household.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Its got nothing to do with Virgin Media. If someone in the household has downloaded something illegaly, then they will set out to find out who, or in this case, the account holder, due to the fact thats who pays the bill. I guess its just the same as a car, the owner of the car is responsible for knowing who is driving it at any given time. Im guessing the same applies here. Someone is the quilty part in the household, so they go for the account holder due to the fact he is responsible over the internet connection.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thanks for the info Photodude. I have contacted the solicitor for advice and am now awaiting a reply.

Kymmy, no nieces etc visiting as they all live locally and have their own computers.

My husband, bless him, would be hard pressed to find the on/off switch on a computer.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

And no P2P software on your PC???

If not then you might just be the test case that everyone is waiting for.....

A pensioner who doesn't have any P2P software on thier PC and has always been in control of her own PC... If you went through the whole court scenario, won the case then probably all the letters would then stop for everyone.....

But doubtful if Davenport Lyons would be stupid enough to take it that far....

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Hell I am new and have had a letter from Davenport Lyons for downloading drive test have been to CBA and a solicitor who recommended writing a letter first as 4 people live in the house and not sure who down loaded drive test as it was so long ago Feb late at night I have checked computers and this game is not on any of them. Has any body got any advice what to put in the letter as the solicitor could not help as she did not know what to do as this is the first letter she had seen. Any advice please

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

See post #183, link in there.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thank you will phone them tomorrow.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Shawty, you hit the nail on the head.
The same applies with this case, as applies with registered keepers of cars and other drivers committing offences. If you can't ID the exact person driving the car and committing a speeding offence etc, you (the registered keeper) can't be prosecuted.
If you can't ID the exact person using the computer, and committing the copyrights breach, they can't claim damages and costs against the account holder. As some of the download times date back 1-2 years+, people can not be expected to remember who was at the PC at that time, so the "unknown downloader/unaware of download" defence stands up in a balance of probability;).

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

But as far as Im aware and like I said in the post you replied to, the law has changed so the owner of the car can get done for not knowing who was in charge of the owners car. Wether this relates to anything else, im not sure.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

The law changed so that the owner had to offer up details and/or show they had made a "diligent and documented search" to ascertain who the driver was. If they can not provide a definite answer, the charges are dropped. Only exception to this rule is company cars ;) Note that the police must make this request within 14 days of the offence, not 6 months to 2 years after the event, like Davenport Lyons are doing.
A defence that stands up in a criminal court, will stand well in a civil court ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

No, the offence is not knowing who was in control of the vehicle (as far as Im aware) if the owner can not state who the driver was.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It is the responsibility of the account holder because you are the person paying the bill, no comparison can be made to a motoring offence, as any case would be heard in a Civil Court.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

So if you are paying a bill for a service, you are responsible for the actions of any other person abusing it?
So lets say your electric supplier sends you a bill for £2000, and you find out that your neighbour has tapped in to your meter. That means that it's your fault, and you have to pay, get sent to court and be fined, as you are the account holder:confused: I don't think so

Shawty, what you refer to is section 172 that was changed in 2007. But like I said, if you can't find out who the person was, you can't be prosecuted:
Quoted from Road traffic act Here

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

What we are trying to say is, the offence has still took place, but the only person Davenport Lyons can get intouch with is the account holder. Regardless of who did it, the offence still took place.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Doesn't matter if it took place or not. If the person named in the claim is not the guilty party, they can defend against the claim and not pay Davenport Lyons a penny.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If someone stole your electricity and you couldn't prove it then yes you would be liable for the costs, same with your internet connection....

Having an unsecure network is not an excuse to blame others, not unless you found someone outside of your house with a laptop and called the police and then they were prosecuted then yes that is then an excuse, but only if the prosecution showed the event to be on the date the download took place...