Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

To be fair, it was "his view" he stated, not fact. His opinion was given, and I am sure other lawyers may have other opinions - but, at the end of the day, VM have given any potentially aggrieved customers until the end of the month to leave without any additional charge, so everyone should be happy.:D

---------- Post added at 11:42 ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 ----------

My VOD works fine - in fact, my chum, who is on Sky, has just had a demo of it, and liked it so much he is cancelling Sky and going to NTL.

---------- Post added at 11:47 ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 ----------

Re Sky churn rate

Indy
"BSkyB chief executive James Murdoch yesterday shrugged off a sharp rise in the number of customers leaving his pay TV platform.
Sky said the rate of this "churn" had increased to 11.9 per cent - well ahead of analysts predictions of 11 per cent. However, Mr Murdoch was confident of meeting Sky's bid to achieve 10 million customers in four years.
He blamed a strategy of cutting discounts for customers who called customer service agents threatening to leave for the increase in churn. This, he said, accounted for 27,000 customers leaving and the churn rate would have been down at 10.6 per cent if they were excluded."

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Glad your chum likes VOD.
I think it is crap, why would I want to watch something from 3 years ago?
Regardless what you say about the contract, a court could decide and that is why imo VM have decided to make the move they have.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I'm not sure why you felt the need to be insulting about someone elses education, i think it just devalues your opinion.

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------

Another silly argument. Why watch something on Sky from 3 years ago too? Because some people have seen some of the stuff on VoD and some people haven't. I've not seen Supernatural and will be watching it shortly (as an example).

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Just to follow on from that - the Terms & conditions for Virgin Media:

I would have put Sky's terms, but they're not apparently on the system. I'd guess, very similar.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

It does not devalue my opinion at all, he/she obviously does not understand contract law, or the fact that a contract can be contested as unfair.
If he/she thinks I am insulting they better pick themselves up, its a tough world.
I view VOD as a lame duck, is it ok for me to think that?
Some think it the bees knees, that is fine also.
End of.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 ----------


Blahdy blahdy blah.....
How many times do I have to say that a contract can be contested?

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

you will have been speaking to customer services if you're making a regular call. if you ring to cancel you get put through to retentions which have significantly longer waiting times to answer calls. ie. 30 mins the last 2 or 3 times I rang them (which was before the sky one 'removal')

---------- Post added at 12:12 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------

there a direct number for retentions but often people ring customer services, tell them they wish to cancel then get transferred to retentions and wait 30mins for the call to be answered.

so yes, 2 different call queues.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

As far as i am aware the person didn't say it couldn't be contested, so why does that need them to get a refund on their education? Did you get out of bed on the wrong side or something?

You said why would someone want to watch a 3 year old show... i gave you a reason. If you didn't want an answer, i wouldn't ask the question?

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I was a on/off Sky One viewer but as I am happy with every other aspect of VM I have not even contemplated going to Sky or ringing customer services for a discount - my in-laws didn't even realise Sky had disappeared from their programme list until they were channel hoping the other night - so again haven't thought of cancelling or ringing for a discount - there most be loads of other people like us so I can see that not as many people are leaving VM as were possibly anticipated

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

also retentions handles people cancelling for other reasons - e.g. cancelling their broadband cos they can get talktalk etc - so there are more than just the 100 cancelling TV per day.

and I believe after the merger with telewest they made redundant loads of retentions staff so they are under staffed.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

That may be the case! Only time will tell i guess.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

As many times as you want, mate - it's a (mostly) free country.

btw, "contesting" isn't winning, just challenging - could win, could lose, often based on precedent, but not always. ;)

Remember the law professor's words - it was "his view", not the "the law states".

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I did not say that poster specifically said a contract could not be conteseted, I suggest you read the post again.

" And the truth of the fact is, that the removal of one channel does not constitute a huge change in the services you are recieving. If virgin suddenly decided to drop the tv service say, then this is a change for which you can canel without any penalty payment. Oh and did i forget to mention i covered this in my contract law part of my course which appears to have got me a job as a lawyer :) "



The above is what I am on about.
I would beg to differ on his/her opinion, that is my right, and I am sure a court would/could come to a different conclusion than the one they state.
There are some happy with VOD, thats fine, you pay your money.....
but it is certainly not something I would spend my money on given the idea behind it and the amount of problems associated with it.

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 ----------


Precisely, but the " fact " is it can be " contested ". ;)
People should not swallow the cable boy pill that the contract is watertight, thats all.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Or that Sky is perfect.... :)

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I am, in fact, stating that it can be contested/interpreted - you seem to be (mostly) stating that it is invalid - none of us will know until/unless it goes to a court (small claims or otherwise), so just repeating it ad infinitum does not make it true. You appear to be stating as fact an opinion given by a TV pundit professor of law, when all it is, after all, is an opinion, not a fact. :dozey:

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Can we calm down a little please ......

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

The end of the day the contract is a piece of paper, not the bible as some on here would have believed.
People who want to leave any company should know that a contract can be contested.
You cannot be held to a contract if you think that contract is unfair.
In my opinion VM did make significant changes to their package, therefore if they do not let people out of the contract, which in fairness they are doing, then they can be rightly taken to task, as can any company.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Sky One/Sky News loss isn't really significant changes

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I would imo say that sky is a lot more perfect than VM.
At the end of the day the people who were working at NTL are still there in all probability, it is just a name change, a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Their customer service is imo pathetic.
Other companies have issues I know, but I have never come across a company so bad.

---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:13 ----------


And wtf information do you have to substantiate that?
Tell the people who were ripped off that.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

ok .... Second time of asking .... Please calm down.

Please do not belittle others thoughts or feelings, there is no need.

I will not ask again.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

The difficulty here is whether something is significant is subjective rather than objective. A person who never watches Sky One or Sky News would consider their loss insignificant, whereas a person who watches nothing but would consider it very significant. It's something which has to be considered on a personal basis, rather than something you can summarise as not being 'significant changes' for anyone.

It also depends on the service and package people have - the more channels they have, the less significant a reduction it perhaps is. For those with very few channels of which Sky One and Sky News were part of, it is more significant. For example, on analogue for me, losing Sky One and Sky News has been quite significant because there are now only a couple of channels remaining (I know, my fault for not being digital, but in my case I would argue it was a significant loss - especially considering the channel number of Sky One was 7, after bbc, itv, channel four, five and itv2)

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

And I appreciate the non-digital customers have more to lose. Personally, if there is a cable, then I think VM should prioritise the upgrade to those areas as soon as possible.

Is there a reason why (apart from money) they've not been done before?

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Digital is available in my area (it seems) as I just did a check, although I've never really had anything from NTL or Virgin about it directly, and to be honest, I've never really needed it as until recently I've been quite happy with analogue - I had sky one, uk gold, discovery, news 24 and the standard channels, and was pretty happy. As a non-serious television watcher, just watching it in my spare time when I get the chance, but wanting to make sure what I watch is what I enjoy, I was happy.
Therefore, losing Sky One was quite significant for me, hence why I wanted to disagree with your previous message :)

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I had analogue, and moved to digital some years ago. Some friends stayed on analogue until recently, and their choices gradually reduced with the numbers of channels anyway.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Yes, you can - the final decision is that of a court, not an individual; whilst your opinion is important, it is the law that would decide if a contract is unfair, not you (or me); you may wish to contest that a contract is unfair, but just stating that it is unfair does not make invalid (no matter how many times you say it ;) ).

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

And talking of unfair contract terms - there's the contract between Sky and Virgin for the Virgin TV Channels:

http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/p...203&highlight=

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Does that mean that VM can cancel their contract with Sky?

That looks like a "significant change" to me - Sky should be taken to task.

btw, it could get interesting now, according to that press release
"Virgin Media has formally advised Sky that it will pursue action in the high court if their carriage disputes are not resolved within 30 days"

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Nice to see some real figures out there for a change! :)

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Perhaps Sky might given them until then end of March to cancel without penalty??

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

To me, there seems to be something odd in the way the flextech and sky deals were done. From an interesting interview in the guadian with Murdoch

Edit: Also of interest - seems Sky offered Virgin the ability to retail their channels themselves with full control and profits, although Virgin turned it down

It seems odd that they would put themselves in such a position, as well as taking the cuts that they did, unless there was something happening in the bigger picture - or perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I don't blame them either, NTL nearly went completely under after spending a tonne of money in laying cable which is a superior technology. Getting access to satellite in return is hardly a fair exchange.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Virgin could get into satellite relatively easily anyway. Sky don't own the satellite, they just rent transponders on it. Anyone (with enough cash and an uplink facility) can approach SES (who do own Astra).

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I can see what you are saying, I think, unless I misunderstood though, it would be something more in addition rather than exchange? Virgin gains access to satellite, while still having (if they wanted - and they do) full control over its cable network?

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I presume you mean unfair as in unlawful? If so, how is this unlawful?

Notwithstanding the fact that none of us are privvy to the terms of any contract between VM and BSkyB, I don't see how one company bargaining with another is unlawful. It may be unfair, as in unjust, for VM considering the price paid in relation to the value of the product, but I don't see why you consider it unlawful.

I'm not trying to be funny here... I'm a neutral by-stander as I am a customer of both companies. I have no interest in either of them "losing out" as I will stand to lose on both counts. They're both going to recoup any incurred losses from their customers, so it'll be a double-whammy for me.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Apart from the free carriage of Sky programmes

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

That's what i thought the case was, so what were Sky offering then? I don't understand? Anyone enlighten me?

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Gareth, I think this was in response to arcam's earlier posts about the VM t&c's being unfair and customers being able to end the contract because of that, not about being "unlawful".

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Nowdays cable in the UK and the US are fundamentally no different. The big issue originally was the cost to cable as cable was burried, rather than strung from poles (a la BT) which everyone in the US bidding on the UK networks appeared to miss.

---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 ----------

So Sky were asking for 400% of bottom line profits, and that is after also reducing top line revenue by 10m or so with the reduction in the amount they pay for carriage of VM channels. A potential transfer of about 30m from VMs bottom line to Skys

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Well spotted!

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Worth mentioning that that isn't a bottom line figure it's operating profits. Take out the interest payments on that just shy of £6 billion debt and VM's cash bundle actually dropped, £80 million or so IIRC.

Well spotted perhaps but it's not Sky's problem if VM struggle to make a profit. From Sky's POV VM's earlier companies were quite able to pay them inspite of losing money hand over fist so it's a tad irrelevant.

'Transfer' from VMs bottom line as you call it I'd call a company paying a supplier but *shrug* at the end of the day this is nothing more than one company disagreeing a price with a supplier, nothing more arcane about it.

VM could have retained the channels on their network but that would have meant opening up their network to another retail provider for those channels which does blow the financials argument out of the water to an extent, though whether VM customers would have tolerated something similar to the Homechoice / Tiscali TV 'Sky by wire' package is highly questionable :)

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

True it costs a lot more to get a new customer on board than it does to retain an existing customer.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

:clap:

Count me in those 'loads of others like you'. Happy enough with overall service - not cancelling - not whinging for a discount to 'keep my custom'.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

You are forgetting the 40m minimum payment that the contract stipulates.

---------- Post added at 12:45 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

But to get on the Sky channel lineup on the box is another matter.

---------- Post added at 12:49 ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 ----------

It is all positioning, neither would want to be back in the position where you paid an extra fee a month for their channels, with TV channels it is all about picking up the pennies from the bundle.
3m pennies adds up to a lot more than,
well looking at the math VM have 3.5 m customers paying blah blah making sky want 40m
Now realistically only about 85% of them apparently watch Sky 1 and Sky SN. So to recoup 40m from them would mean they need to pay
3.5m * 15% = 525,000 customers
40m/525,000 = 77 per subscription per year or 6 a month. How many of that 525k would pay 6 a month for Sky One and SSN and consider it Value for Money?

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Wow, that was hard work reading this thread.

People rant on about sky one but the only one I miss is sky news. I'll just have to get used to BBC news 24.

Loosing sky one isn't the end of the world for me. I was getting sick to the back teeth of the Simpsons (force fed re-run time, after time, after time), and I can catch up with Lost, 24 et. al. on lovefilm.com. It's easier that way as I don't have to commit to being in front of my TV at a set time every week (I don't mind waiting until DVD release).

I welcome this move and if Virgin Media are smart (and can commit the cash), they will try to compete on real terms - launch their own news channel, jump in and bid for the high profile content etc... There are other top quality shows out there; The Outfit for drama, Scrubs for comedy. I'm sure some people hate them, but I'm happy.

If some people are as miffed as their posting here would suggest, I really don't know why they remain VM customers. Vote with your feet rather than moaning about it. There is more to life than sky one, and if you don't agree then go switch and get your life back. Power to the people and all!

Anyway, that's all I have to say.

Have a nice evening :)

Chris

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Excellent Post. Nice to see someone with such a common sense approach, as opposed to some on here who only seem to be driven by an unhealthy obsession with Richard Branson.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I would be suprised if the launched their own news channel. After all, if ITN could not sustain a 3rd competitor to BBC and Sky News 24s there is a good sign that there is really only space for two 24 hr news channels.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Or with......Rupert Murdoch.....shudder!

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

there is more to it though

- firstly the issue that SKY is a platform supplier as well as a channel provider therefore a conflict of interest - they can over price their channels in order to gain exclusive broadcasting.

- secondly (as you mentioned) SKY having an open platform where channels can broadcast as pay to view independently of the SKY packages whereas VM are a closed platform - therefore a non level playing field.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

What I would like to know is, with Sky saying their channels are worth more now because of all the investment, were they going to passing on the same increase to their own customers and not just those on Virgin Media?

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

That's the $64k question - and my guess is that it is bound to happen having snared some unsuspecting new users with promises of low prices..

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I was under the impression that Sky increased the costs because they increased the content of the package they were selling - it's not just that they were asking for more money for the same channels, but they added some HD channels, Sky Arts, etc... As their own customers already had access to these channels as part of their package with Sky, there's no need to increase the price.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

You can't compare 2 different systems which cost completely different amounts of money to get up and running. If they forced Virgin to open it up this country would never get anywhere as there is no incentive for anyone to ever invest anymore. That would hurt the consumer more long term.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

It depends on how you clarify 'open', though. I think being open in the fact that they cannot discriminate against a channel, channels or a provider would be good. Otherwise, you end up in a situation where channels can be blocked from appearing on the network purely because it might provide competition or because of personal reasons. This is different in being open in regards to a free for all and giving away control of their network, which I think would be a bad thing. On the other hand, I think the first to some degree, with a certain amount of regulation, could perhaps be a good thing.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

If your TV went wrong and you couldn't get a new one, would you continue to pay for a service you no longer used?

I don't understand why people are labelled as being obsessed about TV just because they don't want to spend money on something they aren't intersted anymore. On the contrary, I'd say it's the people who spend money simply to have "100s of channels", no matter what those channels are, who seem more obsessed about TV.

_Everyone_ here who is spending out money for TV is just as much bothered about TV as each other - maybe someone who didn't pay for TV at all would be able to laugh at us, but then I'd wonder what such a person was doing wasting his time on this forum...

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Well I have cable primarily because the quality of the broadcast signal is poor in my area, you can't get C4 or 5 very well here. The benefits of dozens of other channels, particularly Film 4 and the like, and VOD is what keeps me with Virgin, the broadband doesn't hurt either ;).

If people want out because they are losing Sky's basic channels then Virgin are letting them, so I'm not sure why people are moaning one way or the other to be honest.

If the quoted figure of 100 a day is in the right order of magnitude and it stays like that by the end of this week I would be very worried if I was Sky. The figures are likely to start high and tail off, so in order to meet the 150K minimum to break even they need to average five thousand a day over March. To be pulling much less than 1% of that over the first two weeks is poor to say the least.

This is why Virgin got it right by letting those who really want to get out to do so. It presents a risk, but as things are it gives Sky a reason to get back to the negotiating table.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

If the figures for people leaving are so small, I would like to know why I am on hold for 23mins :)

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I visited the central Customer Relations office this week and call volumes have massively decreased from those we were seeing prior to the channels being dropped. If its taking 23 mins which I dont doubt its because its 9am! Only 2 shifts have started and what does everyone do when they start work in the office? Use the company phone to make their lengthy personal calls.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Surely not? Don't they all have Virgin Mobiles? :D

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Yep that's the point. They all have VirginMobile Lobsters and the're trying to get Sky1:)

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

:rofl:

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

What? I have never heard anything so utterly stupid in my entire life. It shouldn't be possible for customer retentions to dial out and I doubt this is the case that they all sit with their feet up talking.

Why would the channels mean a decrease in call volume? "I was going to cancel my Virgin Media service but now they have dropped bSkyb basic channels I'm there for life"

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

That could be taken to mean that VM staff are getting on the phone as soon as they get into the office and making customers wait while they make personal calls :D. I hope that's not what you meant to say anyway;).

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

I called VM yesterday and today and both calls were answered within two minutes.

The CSR even apologised for the (30 sec) delay this afternoon.

swizzle, were you calling Customer relations or customer services?

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

staffing levels change throughout the day

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

there have been a few faults over the last few days and rather a lot of new V+ installations so there have been times during the day when it has been very busy, lady i spoke to yesterday at CS said it was all sorts of things people were phoning about not many asking to cancel

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

This was customer retentions (25mins) and then customer service (4mins), I am so fed up of my bill being incorrect and the loss of Sky One and Sky Travel has just added salt to the wound, before anyone jumps on the 'those channels are crap bandwagon' I enjoy them and consider them one of the major reasons I subscribed.

I already have an alternative broadband supplier into my house through work so changing won't be much of a problem.

Re: Only 100 Customers/Day Leaving VM
 

Just got off the phone from Customer Retentsions...

Now got a reduction in cost of £20.00

TV - XL
Phone - XL
BB - L

I'm happy with that!
If I want to take BB to XL it will only cost an extra £10.00

Had a great chat to the nice man at VM.

He was seriously hinting at extra buget for TV programs in the next financial year on top of the money saved from the $ky deal!

So VM get a big :tu: from me.:D