Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

euophbic???? - still puzzled ;)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

I've seen this before. We can discuss some of the stuff on that link from if you're up for it? Like his references to the Switzerland and Norway, or his claim that Ted Heath, John Major and Tony Blair have "dedicated their lives to serving Britain." I wouldn't expect you to agree with my views about Ted Heath and John Major, but how can you take the opinions of someone who thinks that Tony Blair has "dedicated" his "life to serving Britain" seriously!? And as for Rankin, there's not much love lost there.

Can't really see the problem with what Farage said. UKIP MEPs have said a great many things, and provided a much better opposition to Blair than the Tories have done. Why do we stay in? As before, answer this satisfactorily, and you triumph. You would not even need to justify the deceit. How for instance do you reconcile Tory MEPs membership of the EPP (the most federalist grouping in the EP) with their "in Europe, but not run by Europe" stance?

One of your own MPs, Bob Spink, MP for Castle Point in Essex, insisted that Ukip members were "very good people" who were simply trying to defend their country against "over-bearing" legislation from Brussels (after the some really crass remarks from Cameron).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...06/nukip06.xml
So UKIP has a real democratic debate about the direction it should take. It's better to encourage such debate than the agreeing to go in the wrong (imo) direction. However, if you can show me a better party, I'll be pleased to consider it. (Veritas is now finished in all but name as far as I know, and I never supported it, not being an Kilroy-Silk admirer.) And UKIP's only similarity with the Tories of the 90s is in the fact that there was debate. UKIP wouldn't have had any involvement with the sell-out. ;)

You'll be citing Labour MEP, Richard Corbett, to support your case next. He's always good for a laugh!

No they are not fans of the EU, but you can tell me why they should be if you like. If you think simply being being opposed to membership of the EU is to be xenophobic, you are way off the mark. I love Europe (and have lived on mainland Europe) but I don't think the EU is good for the people of this country.

Euphobic I assume means opposition to the EU, not opposition to Europe. If that is what Hatedbythemail meant, I thank him for the distinction.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

"As for Rankin, not much love lost there" - lmao - thank you for your reasoned rebuttal.

Re Tony Blair - just because you don't agree, doesn't mean it is untrue - I disagree with some of TB's policies, but I do believe he means well, on the whole.

You keep stating "your party" & "your own MP"; no party is my party - I do not pay subscriptions to any political party.

Real debate? - driving out anyone who disagrees with you - real debate.

Luuuuuurve the way you keep using "deceit" - how about the deceit of the Tories who called anyone who spoke out of line in the 80's "traitors", yet turned round and did the same thing in the 90's - or was that "principles"?

Good luck in getting your first Westminster seat, as unfortunately, in 2005, out of the 495 candidates you put up, you won zero. And I hope you don't lose any more London Assembly members or Euro MP's, like the last two who are no longer UKIP MEPs (Robert Kilroy-Silk & Ashley Mote).

ps Pass on my congratulations to Nigel Farage on becoming the new Party Leader - he must have been pleased to get 44% of all the votes cast in this election (total of 7574, including 169 spoiled votes). It must have been nice to get that percentage, as his record in UK Parliament elections wasn't quite that good - to wit

Eastleigh by-election, 1994 - 952 votes, 1.4%
Salisbury, 1997 general election - 3,332 votes, 5.7%
Bexhill and Battle, 2001 general election - 3,474 votes, 7.8%
South Thanet, 2005 general election - 2,079 votes, 5.0%
Bromley and Chislehurst by-election, 2006 - 2,307 votes, 8.0%

Even in the MEP elections, he came second - it must be nice for him to win one outright for a change, even if it was with the voting turnout of a local council ward.;)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Coming from someone who consistently ignores my questions, that is a bit rich. I didn't think it was worth the effort of dissecting the views of someone who apparently left the party in very acrimonious circumstances more than 2 years ago. All political parties attract all kinds of people, but his view of UKIP as a "bleak world of bigots who hated foreigners, gays and Muslims" is nothing like the one that I know, and I have met many people with UKIP associations, both party members and some of the hierarchy, in social and political circumstances.
But ... dedicated his life to serving Britain? If he thinks what Blair has done is somehow serving his country, he and I have very different ideas on what it is to serve one's country. :rolleyes:
My apologies for having tainted you with the Tory association. ;) May I ask which party you are likely to vote for in the next election?
How have I done that? I have asked you to explain the Tory Party's (or the Labour party's deceit if you have transferred your allegiance to them) justification for its deceit and why it insists on staying in the EU and it's obvious that you can't. It's not much of a debate when you get to disregard questions you don't like. I have as far as I can tell answered your questions, obviously not in the way that suited you, but answered nevertheless. If there is anything I have missed, please do say.
Perhaps you could explain what this "deceit" to which you refer relates to? I think the deceit of the British people is more important than the Tories desire to stay in power.
Oooh, painful. But true :D .

I still wouldn't vote for any of the deceitful mainstream parties. There's not much point in an opposition party having MPs when they consistently fail to perform their duty of holding the government to account. UKIP MPs will probably never get the chance, but I'm fairly sure they'd do a much better job if they did.

I've just noticed your list of results, and they don't change any of my views. One thing is striking: the sliding support for both major parties. Why do you think that is?

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Hi guys..can I ask a question? :)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

You can ask a swivel-eyed xenophobe anything. :D

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Ok.The question is what has your present discussion got to do with the original post apart from demonstrating why the Tories appear to have no policies because they keep arguing about past glories and past times and are failing to look to the future instead...;)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

are you taliking the original original question or the second original question though ;-)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Stop trying to confuse matters...I want to know how discussing the merits of John Major has ANYTHING to do with any of the Tories present policies(or lack of)on tax or anything else that they may have half suggested?

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

well im pretty confused myself. im impressed with the devotion to each of freezin and forever war are giving to their chosen viewpoints, even if this has zip all to do with current tory policy/non-policy. maybe it will all make sense soon as the strands come together..... a bit like cameron laying down new tory brand values before actually coming up with policies to match

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Well thanks a lot..I've now PMPL and I 'll have to change my underwear...:p:

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

You brought started this deviation from present Tory policies when you said on the first page of this thread:
... and I asked why you thought Tebbit's speech was a europhobic rant.

And, Incognitas, John Major came into it when someone said:

"If you ask me we could do with more "men of the people" like John Major, and fewer of the "ivory tower" brigade that seem to rule Westminster."

Are threads not allowed to develop here? I think it is sometimes necessary to look at the past to understand the present.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

hey, dont take offence. i couldnt give a monkeys if we head off topic as long as its interesting ;-)

(and im genuine in saying im impressed with the research and knowledge behind your and foreverwars posts. like, peace, man ;-)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Ah but surely the Tory party should be trying to be a forward thinking party because they only have three years to come up with a decisive set of policies that really make them stand out from Labour.With all due respect Major is gone and they have a new leader whom whatever else he is isn't a John Major.

Not that I really care, I hate the Tories almost as much as I hate New Labour.

On second thoughts I hate ALL party politics.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

It's ok, I'm not offended, I've had to develop a fairly thick skin, and I might be inclined to take position on my soap box a bit too readily. :doh:

But thanks for your peace offering anyway, it's appreciated. I couldn't even detect any sarcasm. ;)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Apologies to all involved for over-researched replies by a ex policy wonk. I forgot I was on a forum, and thought I was back in the "good old days" of "if you can't dazzle them with diamonds, drown them with data" - thanks for the reminder to come back to the real world, Coggy.

Thanks for bringing me back down to earth, Coggy.

ps Sorry for the delay in replying - we were out to dinner with friends who are moving to NZ in two weeks (lucky beggars).

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

I like to be helpful..

Anyway when does anyone think we will see some form of concrete policy from the Tories?.Before,during or after the next general election?

Perhaps we should open a book on it?:)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Just before the election - they will try to survive on marketing presentations until then, as any detail will be used (just like any other parties) to "spin" the worst possible scenario.
eg - Tories will cut waste in NHS/Education/Forces/etc
spin = Heartless Right-Wing zealots, who don't care about ordinary working people, to cut funds to NHS / worsen little children's education / weaken our boys in Iraq / etc.

I think the big problem now is that all parties instinctively attack the others policies, instead of asking "does this help the country?".

I think we need to get back to "country above party", but I don't know how we will.

Hey, I just realised - this contribution was actually relevant to the thread header - wahay!

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Sounds about right foreverwar, gives them a chance to sort out their public image without giving the enemy ammo and oppertunities to attack them in the mean time.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

it undoubtedly does and im sure is central to thinking but i do think cameron recognises the need to reionvent the party and you cant do that over night. like i say i think his first step is to establish what new tory means and stands for, before creating policies to fit that mould. its a sensible product development and business plan although one thats in danger of forgetting that politics is about ideology, as labour did.

---------- Post added at 14:22 ---------- Previous post was at 13:22 ----------

one for you freezin ;-) some bloke called farage says ukip are the common sense majority http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5415252.stm

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

As far as I can see "so far" he is trying to be all things to all people and is often on a tangent to his local party.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Yes - and at the same time, trying to be "different", so that people remember him.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

but thats exactly the new labour scenario. hes distancing himself from old toryism and creating new toryism.

dont confuse me with a fan though. i just can see the political sense in what hes doing

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

methinks you do protest too much, sirrah! :p:

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Weirdest thing is, when Lib Dems were accused of blowing with the wind they got slated but DC seems to be getting away with it! :scratch:

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

steady. ive already threatened you with that report post button ;-)

---------- Post added at 23:46 ---------- Previous post was at 23:42 ----------

that is a fair point. the lib dems are also establishing their brand values ;-) actually the one policy that seems to have been focused on is the 50% tax rate. a pretty big policy admittedly but am i missing other fundamental disagreements

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

So much for not cutting taxes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6063832.stm

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

And from that article -
"Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said the party would accept some recommendations and reject others.
Tory leader David Cameron has said that economic stability - not tax cuts - should be the main priority."

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

the tories are still no different.

keeping the stealth taxes in place and cutting the income tax which is the fairest tax, wouldnt be surprised if council tax and vat remain untouched.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Also from the article:
Or did certain people not read it fully?

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Reading on in that story, it seems a good idea..........

then the good ol' bombshell.........

:rofl:

BBC Politics

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

The suggested income tax cuts (remember, this is not Tory policy at the moment, only the result of research) would aid the lowest paid by reducing the tax on people earning less than £30odd K a year, while still taxing income above that threshold at 40%.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Lowering the amount that low earners need to pay sounds good to me. However, the recommendation is for £21bn in tax cuts. Where will the money come from, or more specifically, what areas will see reduced funding?

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

I don't believe it was part of the team's remit to look into that.
It would be up to the Tory chancellor to decide whether to impliment any cuts or not, which is what they've said all along.
They'll have to look into where savings could be made, such as hospital managers (that's always a good one the media tells us we have too many of), or spin doctors, or the hundreds of extra civil servants Labour employed (I know, I've met some of them, and I object to £20,000 of our tax going to some obnoxious woman who's job is to recieve a fax, take a photocopy, and then fax it on to another office, yes, I kid you not, that was her job).
They'll also have to way up how much of that tax reduction will return to the treasury anyway when it is spent.
Spend £100 at tesco, and 17.5% goes to the treasury, then there's the 20% odd that goes to the treasury as income tax and NI for staff, and the amount from what the employees then spend.
So if a tax cut boosts the economy through more consumer spending (rather than them using credit which we currently do) then that will in turn feed money back into the treasury.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

I bet if they got in, and did lower taxes - my other half'd get a pay rise of significant proportions! :rolleyes:

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

pedantic ON

Food, books, newspapers, magazines and children's clothes are all zero-rated.

pedantic OFF

:p:

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

off topic on

but "luxuries" like tampons are vat rated

off topic off ;-)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

If it's irrelevant then why didn't they say so? Surely your own statement sums it up 'to advise the Conservative party on tax' not to advise Michael Howard but the party as a whole

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

But not at the 17.5% rate, it's 5%. :)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Big deal!! :p:

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

yes if they only did the first bit why the need to lower the basic rate to 20%?

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

strange they're not looking to adam smith who said: it is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion", because a tax on "the luxuries and vanities of life [which] occasion the principal expense of the rich... would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable."* hmm. maybe thats where vat came from when i think on - wasnt it supposed originally to be a tax on luxuries?


* with thanks to some prof who wrote into the guardian today ;-)

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Well as pointed out if it is all luxury goods (which includes things like ready meals I think. Then 17.5p in every 117.5p goes in VAT to the treasury. Also Tesco makes profits globally but has its head office in the UK so pays 20% corporation tax on those billions of profits it announces each year. Any there is NI paid from this income, and business rates (a central govt revenue stream - even though it is collected by the local council)