Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

:zzz:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Of course it means something. Just because your 'source' is somebody you trust doesn't mean anything - for all we know, this person is an ex-employee of ntl with an axe to grind. Blindly stating facts without factual back-up is pointless.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Not a witch hunt with NTL on my behalf, but I do know how companies react if they think there has been an internal leak somewhere.
Just dont get too personal [ADMIN EDIT - SIMON M] Don't start with the insults, or you will be dealt with more harshly.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Personal, me? Not at all, idiot. :)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Have you seen the info I posted Nugget?
Carry on guessing, but as I stated earlier, I could see no reason for someone to type up what was posted just because they have an " axe to grind ".
Even if I emailed " legalhook@ntl " they';re not going to say yes or no are they?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I'm not guessing anything. As I'm not an ntl customer (and haven't been for a while), I'm not really bothered either way.

However, you can't expect people to just blindly accept your assertions without giving a proper source.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Yeah, but he/she does.... :dozey:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Well I would have thought if I was going to comment on something I would read up on it first.

To the person who wrote "unless you tell people who the source is, they won't give a flying fig."

I dont give a " flying fig " what you think.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I don't expect anyone to give a 'flying fig' what I think. People can either accept my opinion or not, completely as their choice.

All I'm saying is that people are unlikely to accept someone else's information as being correct if they are unwilling to show their source. No need to get antsy about it.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

24th june 2004 simon, pretty recent by my calculations.

What are NTL hiding for?They need to be more open with their customers.
Blatantly an internal document? come on simon! people on here would tell you it isnt real, because i dont name a source!
And dont threaten me either.
__________________

Who is getting antsy? not me.
If I name a source that could compromise somebody, no thanks, you dont believe it? thats your shout.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

How can you define something 15 months old as recent? In a business sense, that's practically obsolete.

If you feel that ntl are hiding something, then name your source and we can also decide for ourselves.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Not a threat-----> If you don't start posting with a bit more civility, you won't be posting at all.

We're happy for the discussion to continue, but please don't get drawn into an arguement (that applies to everyone :angel: )

It's obvious that this subject is important to you & we all respect that, but it would appear that this thread will be heading straight into a row if we don;t just step in & say hello. ;)

Hello.... :wavey:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Surely if you're quoting something that could compromise somebody, you shouldn't have quoted it in the first place?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I suggest that you echo your sentiments about " civility " to other people, namely people who work for NTL.
__________________

It only compromises someone if you name them.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Nugget doesn't work for NTL ... nor do I ....

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

But you're asking us to accept this without supporting it. For all we know, your 'source' is the binman.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Simon, if I think that you or nugget have not been civil i will let you know :)
Mention " people who work for NTL " and people jump to conclusions.
__________________

I am not asking you or anyone to accept it, i put it up to give people something to think about, if they think " well there isnt a named source so it cannot be right" thats fine by me.
On the subject of sources, how many times do you or anyone buy a paper and think " well there is no named source so it cannot be true "
If that was the case, there would be a lot of bankrupted newspapers.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

He means me :D

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Again, I can't speak for anyone else but, when I read a newspaper, the majority of the articles show the journalist who wrote them by name. We either choose to trust them or not.

However, none of us know you. As such, you require us to take a leap of faith whereby we should believe what someone we don't know tells us, that they have also been told by someone else we don't know.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I did keep on trying to tell you, didn't I Mick? And, as I've also said many times, an unsigned copy of an agreement regulated by that act is not legally enforceable.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Possibly but it paled into insignificance. :cool:

ntl don't hire you the equipment. They provide you them for free during your use of the service that you subscribe to. Not HIRE. Subscribe!!! ;)

Subscribe

verb {I or T}


to pay money to an organization in order to receive a product, use a service regularly or support the organization: - She subscribes to several women's magazines.

- I subscribe £10 a month to the charity.

Subscriber

noun {C}


someone who subscribes to a product, service or organization: - Cable television companies have launched major campaigns to increase their number of subscribers.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Well it's a little difficult to know how to proceed when faced with such overwhelming obtuseness!

Quoting the definition of the word subscribe isn't going to help you I'm afraid. I know what the word means, presumably you do too now.

You subscribe to the service and hire the equipment for crying out loud! The fact that it's not listed separately on the bill is neither here nor there - they're lending you a piece of equipment, they want back. Why in the hell do you think ntl would say that it's a hire agreement regulated by the consumer credit act when they weren't actually hiring you anything? Honestly, this is getting ridiculous.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I fully understand the situation. Got a degree in consumer law? Or are you getting so precious over this issue off the whim of what a soliticitor has apparently told you? :)

The fact is that it is listed on the bills and reads £0.00!!! I am sure homealone has pointed this fact out to you already in this thread. :dunce:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Have we recieved any categoric proof that that's what ntl said yet, or are we still expected to take somebodys word for it?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Erm well, I don't think you need a degree in consumer law to see that ntl themselves admit their contract is based on the Consumer Credit Act, and then to go and look up the said act. I assure you anyone of reasonable intelligence could do that!

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I have dug out an even earlier copy of my agreement with NTL . This again says that it is a Hire agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. What part of "HIRE AGREEMENT" are people failing to recognise?

A couple of paragraphs from this are:
and These quotes are from the Agreement with a printing reference of NTLNS043 in the bottom right hand margin.

From my understanding of the Act the facts quoted in the original post are a correct interpretation of it.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

At last, a voice of sanity!

Let me put two questions to you Mick:

1) Do you now accept that ntl's agreements are hire agreements and thus subject to the Consumer Credit Act?

2) If so, do you know the status of unsigned agreements within this act? (I'll give you a clue, I've already posted the answer before somewhere in this thread!)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I need to see something that is legitimate and uptodate and not base my judgement on the whim of a solicitor or what someone posted claiming to be something internal from ntl (from when?) and what I do dispute is that the equipment is not hired out.

See above. :cool:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Technology wise yes, if it were issued by a legal team it is likely to be pretty current, law is an evolving not revolving matter.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Come on guys it doesnt take much intelligence to work out the legalities of this.

If NTL provide equipment it is not subscribing, when you subscribe to something the company does not get it back. It is gone. Subscribing you have it once, examples subscribing to magazines and tv channels. You dont return the magazines at end of subscription and you cannot return watched programs either.

The equipment is defined as 'loaning'
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/loaning
"loaning - disposing of money or property with the expectation that the same thing (or an equivalent) will be returned"

I expect that NTL used to charge for modem rental etc. and they do indeed charge for things like 2nd boxes but by making it free they had a way to not use the word hiring, but I think you are still effectively hiring the equipment but its cleverly buffered in the price.

The document ian showed has no argument against it, if it clearly says hire agreement then thats what it is. I will try to dig out my contract which is from august 2003.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

And when I got digital TV we never actually got a contract from NTL. The CS department at the time said it was too confusing for people to understand so they wouldn't be sending one (dunno how true that was). Mind you that was five years ago and TBH I never really thought about it again... until now :)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Yep, same here... I didn't get one from NTL (although I didn't think anything of it at the time either) but I have had one from BT when I switched back to them earlier this year, and I recently found an old one I had from BT before I went to live in France.

Not that it's an issue for me, as I'm well past the minimum period, but I find the info useful nonetheless. :)