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-   -   School stands up for discipline and rules (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=29780)

Paul 07-06-2005 12:31
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
I'm afraid those days have gone Paul..I think it had summat to do with the punk era.. ;) It was thought that some of the gear was a little too OTT and a distraction to examinees.This way they aren't involved in a fashion parade and are concentrating on what's really important.
Sorry but those days are not gone. I have some relations taking exams this month, they do not need to wear their uniform.

nffc 07-06-2005 12:32
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
I'm afraid those days have gone Paul..I think it had summat to do with the punk era.. ;) It was thought that some of the gear was a little too OTT and a distraction to examinees.This way they aren't involved in a fashion parade and are concentrating on what's really important.
Sorry but those days are not gone. I have some relations taking exams this month, they do not need to wear their uniform.
And some people will... as I've said, it's up to the school/college what the policy is.

Chris 07-06-2005 12:53
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nffc
And some people will... as I've said, it's up to the school/college what the policy is.
Agreed, it's not surprising that different schools have different policies on uniform in exams, just as they have differing policies on uniform during the rest of the year.

My school's attitude was that you were a pupil of the school until the official valediction day in July, well after the exams were over. That meant that when on school premises you behaved *exactly* as you would on any other day. Furthermore, as you were still a pupil, study leave was considered a pivilege, not a right, and could be revoked at any time. This was the nuclear option when dealing with bad behaviour among fifth years ... making you sit in an empty classroom, in uniform, to do your revision there, rather than at home (or, more likely, out on the town with your mates).

I'd be curious to know if there's any correlation between schools with strong uniform policies and discipline/academic achievement.

andyl 07-06-2005 13:07
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
I'd be curious to know if there's any correlation between schools with strong uniform policies and discipline/academic achievement.
OK, this is a particularly strong piece of evidence which NOBODY can ignore. I went to a school with a strict uniform policy and left with but one 'O' level. Went to an FE college - no uniform, 7 O levels. Went to Poly - no uniform, within a whisker of a First. Proven beyond all doubt that uniforms inhibit rather than promote academic achievement. So, you might as well just close the thread now Chris :D

Paul K 07-06-2005 13:10
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
I'd be curious to know if there's any correlation between schools with strong uniform policies and discipline/academic achievement.
OK, this is a particularly strong piece of evidence which NOBODY can ignore. I went to a school with a strict uniform policy and left with but one 'O' level. Went to an FE college - no uniform, 7 O levels. Went to Poly - no uniform, within a whisker of a First. Proven beyond all doubt that uniforms inhibit rather than promote academic achievement. So, you might as well just close the thread now Chris :D
The evidence could just point to you growing up and realising that you needed a better education than you left school with ;)

Pierre 07-06-2005 13:18
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
The evidence could just point to you growing up and realising that you needed a better education than you left school with ;)
Indeed, exactly what happened to me. I left school with sod all and no-one to blame but myself. I soon realised that I had to get my arse in gear and went to an FE college and onto Uni.

andyl 07-06-2005 13:40
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
The evidence could just point to you growing up and realising that you needed a better education than you left school with ;)
I refute that allegation totally. How dare you suggest I've done some growing up. I'm 40 now and still have a mind like a playgroup.



Actually the key to my FE success was, I think, being treated as an adult which led to greater respect for my lecturers and greater acceptance of my own responsibility. Some (not all) of my school teachers were plonkers, including my form tutor who amazingly gets me back on topic by virtue of once telling me and my dad that he'd rather I came to school in black shorts rather than the cords I was wearing cos my school trousers were worn out (and I only had a few weeks to go and my dad was buggered if he was going to buy me a new pair).

allieyoung666 07-06-2005 13:47
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
I refute that allegation totally. How dare you suggest I've done some growing up. I'm 40 now and still have a mind like a playgroup.



Actually the key to my FE success was, I think, being treated as an adult which led to greater respect for my lecturers and greater acceptance of my own responsibility. Some (not all) of my school teachers were plonkers, including my form tutor who amazingly gets me back on topic by virtue of once telling me and my dad that he'd rather I came to school in black shorts rather than the cords I was wearing cos my school trousers were worn out (and I only had a few weeks to go and my dad was buggered if he was going to buy me a new pair).
I know my kids have gone through 4pairs in a year!!!!I am begining to think they walk on their knees!!! So Jack is now in Cords! and Con is wearing brown shorts as I cannot afford to pull out another £12 for 6wks wear, and I think connor has taken growth hormones!!!!

andyl 07-06-2005 15:18
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
A quick other thought. Where do teachers get their job satisfaction from? A kid goes through 11 years of school only to be halted at the exam hall door by a pair of quite tasteful and understated trainers. Kid loses and the teachers who delivered those 11 years lose.

And to get those who've not yet signed up to be under my command in the PC Brigade, think of all that taxpayers money down the plughole!

Chris 07-06-2005 15:53
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
A quick other thought. Where do teachers get their job satisfaction from? A kid goes through 11 years of school only to be halted at the exam hall door by a pair of quite tasteful and understated trainers. Kid loses and the teachers who delivered those 11 years lose.

And to get those who've not yet signed up to be under my command in the PC Brigade, think of all that taxpayers money down the plughole!
I think that's rather simplistic. Given that the behaviour exhibited by this boy is unlikely to have been a sudden development, but more likely part of a pattern well known to the teachers over many years, I would have thought the teachers had already spent a long time watching taxpayers' money going down the drain on his account, and had already failed to derive job satisfaction out of him. In fact, I expect only sheer professionalism helped them continue to give him his education, when by all other measures there was little point.

As I don't know the lad this is somewhat speculative on my part, you understand, but it is a contrary view to your own, no less speculative scenario. ;)

allieyoung666 07-06-2005 15:57
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
you only probally know half the story as well, you know how stories can be distorted and twisted out of all proportion and that is todays society!

andyl 07-06-2005 16:07
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
I think that's rather simplistic. Given that the behaviour exhibited by this boy is unlikely to have been a sudden development, but more likely part of a pattern well known to the teachers over many years, I would have thought the teachers had already spent a long time watching taxpayers' money going down the drain on his account, and had already failed to derive job satisfaction out of him. In fact, I expect only sheer professionalism helped them continue to give him his education, when by all other measures there was little point.

As I don't know the lad this is somewhat speculative on my part, you understand, but it is a contrary view to your own, no less speculative scenario. ;)
You have to speculate to obfuscate as the old saying goes. :) OK, we're both speculating - you more than me though :p: ;) - given you believe, because this lad breaks da rules with his modest trainers he's got a long history of deviant behaviour and that the teachers, of whom we know nothing, have persevered through sheer professionalism etc. That's more speculating than George Soros does!

But do you take my point that to stop (or at least discourage) a child who you've been teaching for years from taking an exam is to remove any semblance of job satisfaction that could have been had. I'd be gutted to ditch a project at the last hurdle and I would have thought - and hoped - teachers shared that point of view. Unless they only do the job for those long summer holidays (Coggy, FYI, just my little wind up! :) ).

orangebird 07-06-2005 17:14
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
A bit late on this one, but here's my 2pence worth.

I cannot believe that a school put more importance on the boys footwear than they did on him being able to sit an exam and achieve something.

Lots of you are calling him a chav... why? I'd just be bloody grateful that the child turned up to sit the exam in the first place. So what happens now? He'll get one less qualification, giving him less opportunity to do something with his life. Great decision the school made there. One child underachieves due to some tosspot jobsworth, but at least there wasn't any unsuitable footwear in the exam hall. Good one. :rolleyes: :upyours:

And I wouldn't wear second hand shoes either. :sick:
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
A quick other thought. Where do teachers get their job satisfaction from? A kid goes through 11 years of school only to be halted at the exam hall door by a pair of quite tasteful and understated trainers. Kid loses and the teachers who delivered those 11 years lose.

And to get those who've not yet signed up to be under my command in the PC Brigade, think of all that taxpayers money down the plughole!
I think I'm joining up!....

Anther thought - how is it a mother can go to prison for not doing enough to stop her children playing truant, but a teacher can turn a child away from an exam for them wearing the wrong shoes. Proposterous. Lunacy. :monkey:

Graham 07-06-2005 18:57
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
a quick 'don't do it again' would have enabled the kid to take the exam and marked his card.
With all due respect he was offered a solution which he turned down.In his shoes(sorry)I would have taken the choice offered and sat the exam in the borrowed shoes.
With all due respect as I've already said, IMO the solution offered was not a sensible one.

Quote:
Seems to me, that the ,the,the idiot has his priorities all skewed
It seems to me that the teacher is the one with the skewed priorities.

Which is more important? The child wearing the right shoes or the child missing the exam?

As to the rest of what you said, that is pure speculation as far as I can see and isn't worth addressing.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
but when you get "psycologists" from Grahams post fawning over the poor little children.
When, of course, we all know that the correct adage is "spare the rod and spoil the child"... :rolleyes:

Quote:
These kids have to be taught responsibility, thery have to know what is acceptable and what isn't, they have to know that their actions will have an effect on their futures and we should stop making excuses for them.
Nobody is saying they shouldn't, however you don't teach children to behave in mature and responsible ways by acting like a kid yourself.

I once came up with a new definition of "cheeky":

"Cheeky is when a child is behaving like an adult whilst an adult is behaving like a child"!

Quote:
I did have to smile at:
Quote:
Quote:
And if it is deemed acceptable, surely that would lead to disobedience, lawlessness and eventually anarchy?

Have you been reading the Daily Mail?? This is the sort of remark that they tend to come out with.
and from the article:

Quote:
The ensuing chain reaction is depressingly predictable: school failure, dropping out, arrest and incarceration
It's not just the Daily Mail readers that can jump to conclusions eh Graham?
I'm not sure what your point is here. On the one hand we have the "Daily Mail" speculation that (paraphrased) "if we let the little buggers have an inch they'll take a mile and society will fall down around our ears" (something which doesn't actually seem to have happened) wheras on the other we have the evidence of children, especially those from minorities, being excluded from schools and, having nothing better to do/ no better guidance and ending up becoming criminals.

Perhaps you just jumped to a conclusion there?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
As for the world going 'Daily Mail' on us ... don't forget that the Mail is the country's best selling mid-market paper because it's the one that best reflects the attitudes and opinions of the middle classes. I think the Mail's editorial line reflects the country's attitudes more than it sets them.
And the Sun is the country's best selling newspaper. Why? Because it panders to the lowest common denominator, just like the Mail does to the "middle classes".

paulyoung666 07-06-2005 19:03
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
it seems to me the ones who do not have kids are the ones making the stupid opnions!

Graham 07-06-2005 19:16
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nffc
Bleh.... we don't know the history do we.
No, but then you immediately go on to speculate...!

Quote:
They'd presumably also been told to wear full school uniform
Speculation.

Quote:
and if they weren't, they'd be refused entry into exams!
Speculation.

Quote:
And let's not forget he was also offered a choice.
A "choice" that was not a reasonable choice at all.

Quote:
Spare shoes, that DID fit in the regulations- which he turned down for alleged "medical reasons".
"Alleged", implying that there weren't really reasons. More speculation.

Quote:
He had the choice to take the exam in the spare shoes or to not take it in his chavwear,
"Chavwear". Yet more speculation. (If they had been so blatantly "chavvy" I doubt very much he'd have got away with it for so long, but looking at the picture which, I presume, are the trainers in question, it's not as if they're bright white or similar.)

Quote:
he chose to walk out.
He was offered a "choice" between "wear someone else's shoes" (not something I would choose to do whether I had a medical condition or not) and "go home and come back", it isn't really much of a choice.

Quote:
Which provokes a few thoughts...
Read "speculations based on no evidence".

Quote:
He may have also had warnings about not wearing proper uniform *not necessarily footwear* in the past,
Any evidence of these? Nope. Just speculation.

Quote:
the school may also have a zero tolerance policy in exams.
In which case it should have been made perfectly clear, which doesn't sound as if it was the case from what the article says.

And, frankly, having ZT policies in exams but not for the rest of the school year sounds a pretty silly idea to me.

Quote:
As it stands, we have a brief one-sided account of the incident.
Yes, that is, at least, correct.

Quote:
It would be interesting to see detailed statements from both sides, and also if there's any history, because apart from what we know, there's little about the incident itself.
I agree.

Quote:
Personally I feel the school were right sticking up for the rules but OK, if others feel Little Johnny is able to get away with whatever he wants to and has a right to sit exams regardless, etc etc, than that's fair enough- but boy, the PC brigade is really beginning to really **** me off!
And boy, the "string them up brigade" are ****ing me off too.

Has *ANYONE* said that he should be "able to get away with whatever he wants to and has a right to sit exams regardless"? No.

Please don't try to put words into people's mouths it doesn't help your arguments.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulyoung666
it seems to me the ones who do not have kids are the ones making the stupid opnions!
Thank you for that constructive contribution to the debate.

allieyoung666 07-06-2005 19:16
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
It isnt the teacher who is screwed, it is the kid as he thought he would try it on!
The problem is todays society is falling round us and if nobody starting putting their feet down, this country may as well be a giant amusement park, as the adults are going to start getting afraid of the kids. And I see it happen all the time on the way to school, chavmister and his chronies taking the mick out of everyone who goes near or past them, many of these have not done a thing, just going about doing their daily business, even the kids who go to the local private schools seem to be prime target for this lot. I have stood up to them, but now I cannot go past them as one of them decided to give the eldest one a good kick up the jacksy, and they know if I turn and give them a bleedn good hiding I will be the one who will end up in jail and they know it.
It is about time that someone stood up even more and put them back in their place. The moment the eldest starts giving me and paul the lip he is put straight back in his place. The problem is that todays society does not care anymore and there is not enough of us to make a difference to todays youth.

Russ 07-06-2005 19:17
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
which doesn't sound as if it was the case from what the article says.
"Speculation......" ;) :Sprint:

allieyoung666 07-06-2005 19:18
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
That wasnt Paul that was me, but you do not have any kids so how can you comment on how to bring other peoples children up??? I was just wondering that was all????

Graham 07-06-2005 19:31
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
That wasnt Paul that was me, but you do not have any kids so how can you comment on how to bring other peoples children up??? I was just wondering that was all????
:banghead: :shrug: :walk:

allieyoung666 07-06-2005 19:35
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
But I am sorry how can you??? I make sure my2 sons have everything they need and require and that includes manners, respect and obeying the rules, there is no way I would send my kids to school without wearing the correct uniform as I know for a fact I would get a call to go and collect them !

cookie_365 07-06-2005 19:39
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
I think that's rather simplistic. Given that the behaviour exhibited by this boy is unlikely to have been a sudden development, but more likely part of a pattern well known to the teachers over many years, I would have thought the teachers had already spent a long time watching taxpayers' money going down the drain on his account, and had already failed to derive job satisfaction out of him. In fact, I expect only sheer professionalism helped them continue to give him his education, when by all other measures there was little point.

As I don't know the lad this is somewhat speculative on my part, you understand, but it is a contrary view to your own, no less speculative scenario. ;)
Erm, how does that square with your comments on the false rape allegation over here? I just repped you for that :confused:

Maggy 07-06-2005 19:42
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
With all due respect as I've already said, IMO the solution offered was not a sensible one.



Why not?

cookie_365 07-06-2005 19:42
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulyoung666
it seems to me the ones who do not have kids are the ones making the stupid opnions!
Touche

(anyone know where the acute accents are, by the way?)

Graham 07-06-2005 19:49
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
But I am sorry how can you???
To borrow another thread for a moment: how can anyone have an opinion on anonymity in rape cases if they haven't been the accused/ the victim?

There is *no* requirement to have children in order to have an opinion on their behaviour, nor to be a parent to comment on the way others do/ do not let their children behave.

homealone 07-06-2005 19:49
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
Touche

(anyone know where the acute accents are, by the way?)
do CTRL-ALT-e ÃÃâ€*’©, et voilÃÃâ€*’¡ :)

Graham 07-06-2005 19:51
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
IMO the solution offered was not a sensible one.
Why not?
As I said in post #116:

"He was offered a "choice" between "wear someone else's shoes" (not something I would choose to do whether I had a medical condition or not) and "go home and come back", it isn't really much of a choice."

Maggy 07-06-2005 20:04
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
As I said in post #116:

"He was offered a "choice" between "wear someone else's shoes" (not something I would choose to do whether I had a medical condition or not) and "go home and come back", it isn't really much of a choice."
Have to disagree with you over that one...I think it was a perfectly reasonable offer myself especially if I wanted the grade.

As for the medical reason that I think was probably a lie.IF he had even had the problem in the first place he would have gone straight to his Head of Year with a medical note or note from his parents about the lack of correct footwear and the reasons why and got a note signed by the HOY to the effect that he had special privilages to wear trainers.This could have been his way to get himself into the exam wearing the trainers.

Anyway I'm bored with this subject now..We are just going round in circles and arguing for the sake of it.Frankly I'm amazed at the people who usually insist that today's teenagers have no respect for rules who have been rather voluble about letting a child off keeping to the rules.

Maybe that's the problem with today's society, we reserve the right to pick and choose the rules we will obey.

cookie_365 07-06-2005 20:07
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone
do CTRL-ALT-e ÃÃâ€*’©, et voilÃÃâ€*’¡ :)
Vous ÃÃâ€*’ªtes trÃÃâ€*’¨s gentil - vous remercie. :)

Graham 07-06-2005 20:08
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
Frankly I'm amazed at the people who usually insist that today's teenagers have no respect for rules who have been rather voluble about letting a child off keeping to the rules.

Maybe that's the problem with today's society, we reserve the right to pick and choose the rules we will obey.
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidence of wise men" - Douglas Bader

Unfortunately whilst the boy's choice was not wise, the teachers's *should* have been (ie giving him a chance to fix the problem tomorrow) but wasn't.

punky 07-06-2005 20:27
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
If it was me, i'd walked around in my socks.

dr wadd 07-06-2005 20:41
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
It isnt the teacher who is screwed, it is the kid as he thought he would try it on!
It's not as though kids trying it on is anything new. Almost every student has pushed the boundaries of uniform to some degree. My deputy head made a mistake in once mentioning that I could wear a white shirt as part of my school uniform when I was in the fifth year, the mistake being that only prefects wore white, everyone else wore blue. But he said I could, so I got a white shirt. When other teachers complained I gave my reasons why and ended up wearing the white shirt for the rest of the term (hardly fair to make my parents get a new shirt due to someone else's "mistake" ;) )

This was back in 1989, so nothing new. I was one of the high flyers at school, but I behaved in a way that lots of people here automatically conclude is indicative of "chavness". I can assure you that I was not, and have never been a chav. Don`t assume that those who push the rules are automatically the dregs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
The problem is todays society is falling round us and if nobody starting putting their feet down,
Can you hear the echo of that sentiment throughout history? Why should it be an accurate statement now, it never has been in the past? BTW, I assume that this "foot putting down" would require acceptable shoes. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
this country may as well be a giant amusement park, as the adults are going to start getting afraid of the kids.
If you allow yourself to be afraid, alternatively you could just adopt a realistic outlook.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
The problem is that todays society does not care anymore and there is not enough of us to make a difference to todays youth.
Society is not etched in stone, it is fluid, it evolves after time. If you acknowledge you are in the minority then is it not the case that your kind are an evolutionary dead-end? Perhaps society has moved on, do you need to catch up?

paulyoung666 07-06-2005 20:52
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr wadd
<snip>

My deputy head made a mistake in once mentioning that I could wear a white shirt as part of my school uniform when I was in the fifth year, the mistake being that only prefects wore white, everyone else wore blue. But he said I could, so I got a white shirt. When other teachers complained I gave my reasons why and ended up wearing the white shirt for the rest of the term (hardly fair to make my parents get a new shirt due to someone else's "mistake" ;) )
but you knew it was wrong and you carried on with it , does that not make you as bad :shrug: , i was wondering if you had ever made a mistake at all in your perfect life , it appears as though you have :erm: , dont forget , everyone is entitled to an opinion and dont require everything they post tearing to shreds by imperfect ppl , and yes it is me who is posting this ;)

dr wadd 07-06-2005 21:10
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulyoung666
but you knew it was wrong and you carried on with it , does that not make you as bad :shrug:
That's my entire point, that you cannot extrapolate someone's entire life story from a violation of the school uniform rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulyoung666
i was wondering if you had ever made a mistake at all in your perfect life , it appears as though you have :erm:
Not my mistake I`m afraid, *I* knew that I wasn`t supposed to be wearing white. But when the deputy head tells me I can, well, what do you expect me to do, answer back to the deputy head and tell him he was wrong? This was a scenario where keeping quiet was wholly advantageous, I was not about to blow a chance to come out on top.

He made the mistake, I took advantage of it, for the rest of the term I wore white. I don`t see a mistake there, I see a victory for schoolboy defiance. There is a healthy tradition of riding the edge of the rules when it comes to being at school.

Another example, as mentioned above the general school uniform was a blue shirt, that's all it specified, a blue shirt. Denim shirts are blue shirts. Everyone started wearing denim shirts. Is it my fault that the rules have not been thought through? Does that automatically make everyone at the school a chav? The rules were followed to the letter, but just as every prisoner has the obligation of escape, every schoolchild has an obligation to play the loopholes.

paulyoung666 07-06-2005 21:14
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
i give up , you will always be right :banghead: , you will always be right , you will never be wrong , i hope you enjoy your perfect world :erm:

dr wadd 07-06-2005 21:18
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulyoung666
i give up , you will always be right :banghead: , you will always be right , you will never be wrong , i hope you enjoy your perfect world :erm:
I didn`t say I've *never* made a mistake, only that I did not make a mistake in this particular instance. Yes, strictly speaking I acted incorrectly, but that was a deliberate act that led to victory. I simply cannot define that as a mistake.

Paul 07-06-2005 21:34
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
The personal arguments will stop now :afire:

Back on topic please.

nffc 07-06-2005 22:15
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by nffc
Bleh.... we don't know the history do we.
No, but then you immediately go on to speculate...!

Quote:
They'd presumably also been told to wear full school uniform
Speculation.

Quote:
and if they weren't, they'd be refused entry into exams!
Speculation.

Quote:
And let's not forget he was also offered a choice.
A "choice" that was not a reasonable choice at all.

Quote:
Spare shoes, that DID fit in the regulations- which he turned down for alleged "medical reasons".
"Alleged", implying that there weren't really reasons. More speculation.

Quote:
He had the choice to take the exam in the spare shoes or to not take it in his chavwear,
"Chavwear". Yet more speculation. (If they had been so blatantly "chavvy" I doubt very much he'd have got away with it for so long, but looking at the picture which, I presume, are the trainers in question, it's not as if they're bright white or similar.)

Quote:
he chose to walk out.
He was offered a "choice" between "wear someone else's shoes" (not something I would choose to do whether I had a medical condition or not) and "go home and come back", it isn't really much of a choice.

Quote:
Which provokes a few thoughts...
Read "speculations based on no evidence".

Quote:
He may have also had warnings about not wearing proper uniform *not necessarily footwear* in the past,
Any evidence of these? Nope. Just speculation.

Quote:
the school may also have a zero tolerance policy in exams.
In which case it should have been made perfectly clear, which doesn't sound as if it was the case from what the article says.

And, frankly, having ZT policies in exams but not for the rest of the school year sounds a pretty silly idea to me.

Quote:
As it stands, we have a brief one-sided account of the incident.
Yes, that is, at least, correct.

Quote:
It would be interesting to see detailed statements from both sides, and also if there's any history, because apart from what we know, there's little about the incident itself.
I agree.

Quote:
Personally I feel the school were right sticking up for the rules but OK, if others feel Little Johnny is able to get away with whatever he wants to and has a right to sit exams regardless, etc etc, than that's fair enough- but boy, the PC brigade is really beginning to really **** me off!
And boy, the "string them up brigade" are ****ing me off too.

Has *ANYONE* said that he should be "able to get away with whatever he wants to and has a right to sit exams regardless"? No.

Please don't try to put words into people's mouths it doesn't help your arguments.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulyoung666
it seems to me the ones who do not have kids are the ones making the stupid opnions!
Thank you for that constructive contribution to the debate.
err, excuse me whilst I choke on the irony :rolleyes:

paulyoung666 07-06-2005 22:39
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nffc
err, excuse me whilst I choke on the irony :rolleyes:

and i choke on this thread , time to unsubscribe methinks :(

Monster Jedi 08-06-2005 00:06
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
Well as a parent myself, to me, you are a bluddy nightmare...And if you ever tried to smack me in the mouth I'd lay you out.
bring it on
__________________

No, you should go to anger management classes you plonker.[/QUOTE]

could I use you as a punchbag then:D

danielf 08-06-2005 00:09
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster Jedi
bring it on
__________________

No, you should go to anger management classes you plonker.

could I use you as a punchbag then:D
This is not an unpopularity contest you know? :rolleyes:

homealone 08-06-2005 00:33
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
This is not an unpopularity contest you know? :rolleyes:
I know who is listening to baker street by gerry rafferty

Lord Nikon 08-06-2005 01:27
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quite frankly I think the school overreacted. Exam times can be stressful, and omissions like wearing the wrong shoes can be expected. Could have been worse. What (IMO) they should have done is told him to rectify it prior to his next exam, or the next day. Sounds like whoever made the decision was being a 'jobsworth' really.

At the end of the day, a certain amount of flexibility doesn't go amiss. But the situation gets blown out of all realistic proportion, with some kids going to court and gaining the right to wear a jibab at school, other kids being allowed to bend / break uniform regulations based on religion etc, if the rules are to be enforced they must be enforced for ALL pupils with no flexibility for certain ones, or they must be flexible for all. Uniform was created to bring uniformity to school atire. If they can state that all pupils were adhering 100% to the uniform rule at that school, and that he was the only exception, then yes, he was excluded from the exam justifiably, but I am willing to bet he wasn't the only one, merely the only one they excluded

Graham 08-06-2005 02:36
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nffc
err, excuse me whilst I choke on the irony :rolleyes:
To quote Inigo Montoya:

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means..."

allieyoung666 08-06-2005 07:24
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Look the parents mother must not think much to school rules if she sent that boy to school in traniners, it is disrespectful to the school and it faulnts the rules that the school has set out.
I agree with coggy and we are both hard work professionals anyone has a go I will gladly go and lay them out in the car park after work, hey it aint a problem!

dr wadd 08-06-2005 08:20
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
I agree with coggy and we are both hard work professionals anyone has a go I will gladly go and lay them out in the car park after work, hey it aint a problem!
Hardly a professional attitude if you claim you will "lay them out in the car park". In my mind the threat of violence is a lot worse than wearing incorrect shoes. I fear that you have your priorities all screwed up.

orangebird 08-06-2005 08:23
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
Look the parents mother must not think much to school rules if she sent that boy to school in traniners, it is disrespectful to the school and it faulnts the rules that the school has set out.
I agree with coggy and we are both hard work professionals anyone has a go I will gladly go and lay them out in the car park after work, hey it aint a problem!
I'm a hardworking person too Allie. And no, I don't have children - but this does not make my opinion any less valid than yours. I did used to have to wear a school uniform when I was at school.. I didn't always get it perfectly right though. Mainly because money was tight for my parents back then and the option of owning school shoes & 'playing out' shoes wasn't really there, so I wore whatever were decent. But my parents would NEVER have accepted the school dismiss me from an exam just becaue I had the wrong colour/style of shirt/socks/shoes etc. Bullies get less discipline these days in school than the poor sod in this article did. I never realised there was such a bunch of little Hitlers on here :erm:
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr wadd
Hardly a professional attitude if you claim you will "lay them out in the car park". In my mind the threat of violence is a lot worse than wearing incorrect shoes. I fear that you have your priorities all screwed up.
:clap: :clap: Bloody hell, have a greenie on me :tu:

Maggy 08-06-2005 08:54
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
allieyoung666. Look the parents mother must not think much to school rules if she sent that boy to school in traniners, it is disrespectful to the school and it faulnts the rules that the school has set out.
I agree with coggy and we are both hard work professionals anyone has a go I will gladly go and lay them out in the car park after work, hey it aint a problem!
Quote:
dr wadd. Hardly a professional attitude if you claim you will "lay them out in the car park". In my mind the threat of violence is a lot worse than wearing incorrect shoes. I fear that you have your priorities all screwed up.


Don't drag me into this please.I merely suggested in response to one person who was suggesting that violence against teaching staff was a solution that if anyone DID attack me I would be most errr.. 'vigorous' in my response.

Pierre 08-06-2005 09:18
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
I'm not sure what your point is here. On the one hand we have the "Daily Mail" speculation that (paraphrased) "if we let the little buggers have an inch they'll take a mile and society will fall down around our ears" (something which doesn't actually seem to have happened) wheras on the other we have the evidence of children, especially those from minorities, being excluded from schools and, having nothing better to do/ no better guidance and ending up becoming criminals.

Perhaps you just jumped to a conclusion there?
Not at all,it was just an aside that I found amusing.

You were quite happy to deride the poster as a Daily Mail reader (the proposed chain of events he posted was not a quote from the Daily Mail) for logging a possible but not a totally likely, or proven, chain of events that might happen if we don't enforce rules onto children.

And in the same post was quite happy to take on board and equally unproven and equally improbable
chain of events that might happen by disciplining the child as your counter argument.

There is certainly no more evidence in the quote you posted to prove that excluded children all go on to be criminals than there was in the other post to prove that society would crumble.

allieyoung666 08-06-2005 09:37
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
really sorry for being a swot when I was at school then. It isnt that hard to stick to a uniform is it?? Sorry Coogy didnt mean to drag you in. I have a very professional atitude thank you very much and people always comment on it when I am at work. What sort of Dr are you??? I do not think you a medical? so what sort are you???
It is down to respect and rules and before you bleat on about dont you ever break them, well no as it is more than my jobs worth and I enjoy doing it, so why risk losing it!
Outside of work is totally different as I let my hair down, so breaking a few rules wont hurt! Please do not make comments about my priorities as you do not know me and to be honest I couldnt give a damn. Like Paul said before are you perfect as you seem to think you are making rude comments like that. The boy needs to be taught rules, and that is simple.

dr wadd 08-06-2005 09:40
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
What sort of Dr are you??? I do not think you a medical? so what sort are you???
Does it really matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
Like Paul said before are you perfect as you seem to think you are making rude comments like that. The boy needs to be taught rules, and that is simple.
Saying you have your priorities incorrect because you are willing to resort to violence to solve your problem is hardly rude. If anything, your response to that criticism only strengthens my opinion that your priorities are screwed up.

And please don`t claim you "don`t give a damn", your responses clearly indicate that you do very much "give a damn".

If you are so determined that the boy should be taught rules, when should you be taught the rules that you cannot lay people out in a carpark? Or do the rules not apply to you?

orangebird 08-06-2005 09:43
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
<snip> The boy needs to be taught rules, and that is simple.
And you think that failing him an important exam is going to 'teach' him, do you? That's pure and utter spite IMO.

allieyoung666 08-06-2005 09:47
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
They are not screwed, like I said what sort of Dr are you as you do not act like any of my colleagues I work with!
Just because I belive in rules means I am messed up??? I do not think so, a lot of comments you make are beyond stupid. The child has to learn to respect his elders and he did not do that, so what will he be like when he is older?? I will go into ethics if you want?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird
And you think that failing him an important exam is going to 'teach' him, do you? That's pure and utter spite IMO.
Why is it spite??? If the child is still expected to wear a uniform then the child must. It isnt spite it is rules and he needs to learn to respect them. Trust me when you become a mother you will understand!

orangebird 08-06-2005 09:48
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
They are not screwed, like I said what sort of Dr are you as you do not act like any of my colleagues I work with!
Just because I belive in rules means I am messed up???
A bit, yes. You're 'professional', but you'd 'lay someone out in the carpark'? :dunce:

Quote:
I do not think so, a lot of comments you make are beyond stupid.

Some of your don't so you an awful lot of credit either Allie... :erm:


Quote:
The child has to learn to respect his elders and he did not do that, so what will he be like when he is older?? I will go into ethics if you want?
You think he was being disrespectful? At least he turned up for the bloody exam - which is more than some children do these days!!!!

Chris 08-06-2005 09:50
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
All right everyone, calm down, it's only a forum ...

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2005/06/28.jpg

orangebird 08-06-2005 09:50
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
They are not screwed, like I said what sort of Dr are you as you do not act like any of my colleagues I work with!
Just because I belive in rules means I am messed up??? I do not think so, a lot of comments you make are beyond stupid. The child has to learn to respect his elders and he did not do that, so what will he be like when he is older?? I will go into ethics if you want?
__________________


Why is it spite??? If the child is still expected to wear a uniform then the child must. It isnt spite it is rules and he needs to learn to respect them. Trust me when you become a mother you will understand!
Don't patronise me Allie. I was a stepmother at 23, and know about dealing with children. And thankfully I have great parents, who taught me all about respect. You don't need to be a mother to understand respect.

So you think it's better to fail the child his exam, rather than give him a yellow card and tell him not to do it again?

andyl 08-06-2005 09:51
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
This is a bit off topic but I'm curious as to the importance of being "hardworking" in validating an opinion. I'm a lazy sod but as you all know by now I'm always right. :) However I am also, technically speaking a "professional" and have children so am clearly more than qualified to comment unlike some of you childless blue collar **** out there! ;)

It all got a bit lively back there whilst I was enjoying me BBQ but I'm not sure the debate moved any further on. Here's what I have learnt.

1. Monster Jedi thinks violence is funny, big and clever.
2. Most of the rest of us don't
3. Dr Wadd is, in fact, always right
4. People on the right don't like being labelled as Daily Mail readers just as people on the left take umbrage (and quiet satisfaction) at being done down as PC brigade do-gooders
5. Don't go to car parks frequented by the Young family
6. Graham has a well thumbed copy of the Dictionary of Quotations which he puts to effective use (although if we knew who Inigo whatsisname actually was that use would be even more effective!)
7. To mutual consternation Orangebird and I have found ourselves agreeing with each other
8. This thread is seemingly dead. It has ceased to be, intellectually speaking.

orangebird 08-06-2005 09:53
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
This is a bit off topic but I'm curious as to the importance of being "hardworking" in validating an opinion. I'm a lazy sod but as you all know by now I'm always right. :) However I am also, technically speaking a "professional" and have children so am clearly more than qualified to comment unlike some of you childless blue collar **** out there! ;)

It all got a bit lively back there whilst I was enjoying me BBQ but I'm not sure the debate moved any further on. Here's what I have learnt.

1. Monster Jedi thinks violence is funny, big and clever.
2. Most of the rest of us don't
3. Dr Wadd is, in fact, always right
4. People on the right don't like being labelled as Daily Mail readers just as people on the left take umbrage (and quiet satisfaction) at being done down as PC brigade do-gooders
5. Don't go to car parks frequented by the Young family
6. Graham has a well thumbed copy of the Dictionary of Quotations which he puts to effective use (although if we knew who Inigo whatsisname actually was that use would be even more effective!)
7. To mutual consternation Orangebird and I have found ourselves agreeing with each other
8. This thread is seemingly dead. It has ceased to be, intellectually speaking.
I wish I could greenie you again! :rofl:

ntluser 08-06-2005 09:53
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Given that we have just had a twelve year old charged with GBH and perverting the course in the near death of a five year old child and given that the new practice of "happy slapping" is regarded as "fun" among teenagers, I think we need to help this generation of teenagers to develop greater maturity, respect for others and greater practical personal independence.

Maybe if there was a national code of practice/behaviour for pupils, parents and teachers, we could improve all standards in schools and in homes too.

andyl 08-06-2005 09:54
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
I will go into ethics if you want?
Not sure of the relevance but please do. :)

Quote:
Why is it spite??? If the child is still expected to wear a uniform then the child must. It isnt spite it is rules and he needs to learn to respect them. Trust me when you become a mother you will understand!
I'm a father and understand the opposing point of view exceedingly well.

allieyoung666 08-06-2005 09:54
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
It was a joke hahaha, some people do not have sense of humour or have a bypass?? Oh sorry for speaking my mind and that I am a stickler for rules, like I say just wait untill the big day happens and then you will feel differently, you certainly like attacking me and Paul dont you???
So he knew he had to wear a uniform why push it??? They do not officially leave school untill their last exam, wearing trainers in an exam when you are not suppossed to you may as well go into the exam and scream abuse at the examiner! I forgot I live in the real world with Paul:erm:

andyl 08-06-2005 09:55
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird
I wish I could greenie you again! :rofl:
Strangely, the feeling is mutual :)

allieyoung666 08-06-2005 09:57
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
This is a bit off topic but I'm curious as to the importance of being "hardworking" in validating an opinion. I'm a lazy sod but as you all know by now I'm always right. :) However I am also, technically speaking a "professional" and have children so am clearly more than qualified to comment unlike some of you childless blue collar **** out there! ;)

It all got a bit lively back there whilst I was enjoying me BBQ but I'm not sure the debate moved any further on. Here's what I have learnt.

1. Monster Jedi thinks violence is funny, big and clever.
2. Most of the rest of us don't
3. Dr Wadd is, in fact, always right
4. People on the right don't like being labelled as Daily Mail readers just as people on the left take umbrage (and quiet satisfaction) at being done down as PC brigade do-gooders
5. Don't go to car parks frequented by the Young family
6. Graham has a well thumbed copy of the Dictionary of Quotations which he puts to effective use (although if we knew who Inigo whatsisname actually was that use would be even more effective!)
7. To mutual consternation Orangebird and I have found ourselves agreeing with each other
8. This thread is seemingly dead. It has ceased to be, intellectually speaking.
And you are just rude out of order and reported!

andyl 08-06-2005 10:03
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
It was a joke hahaha, some people do not have sense of humour or have a bypass?? Oh sorry for speaking my mind and that I am a stickler for rules, like I say just wait untill the big day happens and then you will feel differently, you certainly like attacking me and Paul dont you???
So he knew he had to wear a uniform why push it??? They do not officially leave school untill their last exam, wearing trainers in an exam when you are not suppossed to you may as well go into the exam and scream abuse at the examiner! I forgot I live in the real world with Paul:erm:
Allie, to avoid confusion please you could confirm to whom this post is directed. Thanks.
__________________

Ok, I'm going to tactfully withdraw as my attempts at humour (which incidentally took in both ends of the political spectrum) have resulted in me being reported. So, au revoir and thanks for the three greenies for the 'contentious' post (not including the one O/B could not give me!) and "yah boo" to the red one.

EDIT: Another greenie. Please do keep them coming as they give this pitiful figure great succour at this difficult time.
EDIT 2 And another. That's the spirit. I'm feeling revived already!


:) Have a nice day... the sun is, after all, shining.

allieyoung666 08-06-2005 10:06
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Erm you! How dare you say that about my family, you are bang out of order! I feel sorry for you. rules are rules get over it!

Nemesis 08-06-2005 10:08
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
And you are just rude out of order and reported!
Hmmmm ..... Not MY opinion Allie.

I saw his post as a lighthearted summarisation of all that has gone on in this thread.

I really think you need to calm down. Just becasue someone posts something you don't like does not mean that they are wrong.

Your posts over recent times have come across as angry, and with that frame of mind it will be particularly easy for people to wind you up.

Please consider your posts before you hit the button.

I have watched your posting style, and am saddened by the fact you seem to be perpetually spoiling for a fight. If I am wrong, please PM me and we will discuss.

Remember, this is a forum, it's virtual. If someone is getting under your skin, walk away for a while, calm down, and then post.

Mick 08-06-2005 10:12
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl

EDIT: Another greenie. Please do keep them coming as they give this pitiful figure great succour at this difficult time.
EDIT 2 And another. That's the spirit. I'm feeling revived already!


:) Have a nice day... the sun is, after all, shining.
andyl - Please avoid discussion of reputation received or given out in threads. Thank you.

andyl 08-06-2005 10:15
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick
andyl - Please avoid discussion of reputation received or given out in threads. Thank you.
Sorry, thought if names weren't named it was ok. Won't happen again because, as we know from this thread, rules is rules! ;)

dr wadd 08-06-2005 10:17
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
6. Graham has a well thumbed copy of the Dictionary of Quotations which he puts to effective use (although if we knew who Inigo whatsisname actually was that use would be even more effective!)
:Yikes: ;) I recommend that you go out immediately and grab a copy of The Princess Bride.

andyl 08-06-2005 10:23
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr wadd
:Yikes: ;) I recommend that you go out immediately and grab a copy of The Princess Bride.
Aha, I see. Good is it?

Pierre 08-06-2005 10:27
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
6. Graham has a well thumbed copy of the Dictionary of Quotations which he puts to effective use (although if we knew who Inigo whatsisname actually was that use would be even more effective!)
Wasn't he out of the Princess Bride.

My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die.???

Oh ok maybe not.

Electrolyte01 08-06-2005 10:44
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
After reading this thread I'm going with "It was a stupid reason to be kicked out of the exam". Even if rules apply, he should have got a warning before going any further, or it isn't really "fair" on the pupil.

Chris 08-06-2005 10:51
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Can I just draw everybody back to the central fact of the case here: regardless of whether you think the school was in the right, or heavy handed, they DID NOT kick him out of the exam. They offered him a range of solutions. He opted to go home for his own shoes, and HE DECIDED FOR HIMSELF that he would not have time to get back to school. We have only his word for it that there was no time.

andyl 08-06-2005 10:57
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
Can I just draw everybody back to the central fact of the case here: regardless of whether you think the school was in the right, or heavy handed, they DID NOT kick him out of the exam. They offered him a range of solutions. He opted to go home for his own shoes, and HE DECIDED FOR HIMSELF that he would not have time to get back to school. We have only his word for it that there was no time.
But they didn't offer him the most sensible solution of letting him take the exam in a pretty innocuous looking pair of trainers (which, OK, according to him, he had been wearing to school for weeks without challenge. We could debate for hours - oh we have! ;) - the validity of his statements over others).

I don't think anyone is disputing that he was technically in breach of uniform rules, it's the manner in which it was dealt with which is contentious. Therefore whether the school was heavy handed is central to the debate.

Pierre 08-06-2005 11:10
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
Can I just draw everybody back to the central fact of the case here: regardless of whether you think the school was in the right, or heavy handed, they DID NOT kick him out of the exam. They offered him a range of solutions. He opted to go home for his own shoes, and HE DECIDED FOR HIMSELF that he would not have time to get back to school. We have only his word for it that there was no time.
Quite correct, if this exam was so important to him why didn't he take the schools offer of wearing a pair of shoes, just for an hour or two while he sat his exam.

If it was that important to his future???????? If I'd have felt that it was that important I'd have worn anything they asked me to.

I remember when I was at school and our headmaster kept a wonderful array of massive brightly coloured kipper ties for those boys that came into school without the school tie, and we would have to wear it all day.

If you were looking to apportion blame I would put it 60/40 to the boy. He knew he was not wearing proper shoes and was given an alternative just for the duration of the exam and he didn't take it.

The school on the other hand may have chosen an inappropriate time to strictly enforce school policy

Electrolyte01 08-06-2005 11:16
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Quite correct, if this exam was so important to him why didn't he take the schools offer of wearing a pair of shoes, just for an hour or two while he sat his exam.
He wouldn't use a pair from lost property (or what ever it is called) as he stated he had medical problems with his feet.

Chris 08-06-2005 11:17
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
But they didn't offer him the most sensible solution of letting him take the exam in a pretty innocuous looking pair of trainers (which, OK, according to him, he had been wearing to school for weeks without challenge. We could debate for hours - oh we have! ;) - the validity of his statements over others).

I don't think anyone is disputing that he was technically in breach of uniform rules, it's the manner in which it was dealt with which is contentious. Therefore whether the school was heavy handed is central to the debate.
Yes and no. OK, I'll grant you, the school's reaction is a valid strand of the debate. But the boy's reaction is a separate strand. It's getting frustrating that some people are intertwining the two. Even if the school was being heavy-handed, they did absolutely nothing that prevented the boy from sitting the exam. At the end of the day he chose not to sit it.

orangebird 08-06-2005 11:22
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
My main concern is that the school found the boys attire more important than sitting an exam, and felt that he had to change his shoes there and then, rather than telling him not to do it again. Where are the teachers priorities? Policing school uniform or ensuring children get the best education they can? :erm: Jobsworth. :monkey:

danielf 08-06-2005 11:24
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
Yes and no. OK, I'll grant you, the school's reaction is a valid strand of the debate. But the boy's reaction is a separate strand. It's getting frustrating that some people are intertwining the two. Even if the school was being heavy-handed, they did absolutely nothing that prevented the boy from sitting the exam. At the end of the day he chose not to sit it.
True, but it have been perfectly possible for the school to allow the boy the sit the exam. They could have given him a warning and exclude him from the next exam if he 're-offended'. I would have absolutely no problem with that.

Like others have said. I think exams are an inappropriate time to start enforcing rules strictly if this has not been done in the past.

Chris 08-06-2005 11:25
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird
My main concern is that the school found the boys attire more important than sitting an exam, and felt that he had to change his shoes there and then, rather than telling him not to do it again. Where are the teachers priorities? Policing school uniform or ensuring children get the best education they can? :erm: Jobsworth. :monkey:
The problem with that is, it assumes that the boy had no prior record of disobeying rules. How do you know he wasn't on a final warning of some kind? The article doesn't say one way or the other.

Pierre 08-06-2005 11:26
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrolyte
He wouldn't use a pair from lost property (or what ever it is called) as he stated he had medical problems with his feet.
he's got academic problems with them as well

danielf 08-06-2005 11:29
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
The problem with that is, it assumes that the boy had no prior record of disobeying rules. How do you know he wasn't on a final warning of some kind? The article doesn't say one way or the other.
I think it is reasonable to assume that he wasn't when it does not mention he was. The article also does not state that the teacher that excluded him was in a particularly bad mood that morning/had marriage problems, so we're not assuming that plays a role either.

Chimaera 08-06-2005 11:30
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Yes - it would be interesting to see the full details from both sides of the story but the details will probably never be made public. Not easy to make a proper judgement without that information - although from my experience schools round here are very hot on uniform rules, especially footwear - and they issue letters before exams to ensure correct uniform is worn at all times.

Chris 08-06-2005 11:35
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
I think it is reasonable to assume that he wasn't when it does not mention he was. The article also does not state that the teacher that excluded him was in a particularly bad mood that morning/had marriage problems, so we're not assuming that plays a role either.
Actually I don't think that's a reasonable assumption at all. The story was clearly based on an interview with the boy and a terse, reluctant statement from the school. The school didn't want to discuss discipline and the boy can't be expected to volunteer if he's got previous.

orangebird 08-06-2005 11:38
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
The problem with that is, it assumes that the boy had no prior record of disobeying rules. How do you know he wasn't on a final warning of some kind? The article doesn't say one way or the other.
No, so what's the point in making assumptions? The fact is, a teacher would not let a boy sit an exam unless he changed his shoes. So what if he had been warned before? There are ways of dealing with this, and jeopardising a childs education IS NOT the way to do it. :nono:

danielf 08-06-2005 11:40
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
Actually I don't think that's a reasonable assumption at all. The story was clearly based on an interview with the boy and a terse, reluctant statement from the school. The school didn't want to discuss discipline and the boy can't be expected to volunteer if he's got previous.
That's fair enough, but everything becomes mere speculation then. We can only sensibly discuss what we have to go on imo. Having said that, we could do with a new angle on this, because we seem to be going round in ever smaller circles :)

orangebird 08-06-2005 11:43
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
That's fair enough, but everything becomes mere speculation than. We can only sensibly discuss what we have to go on imo. Having said that, we could do with a new angle on this, because we seem to be going round in ever smaller circles :)
:tu:

what we have is a teacher who decided that a boys school shoes were not appropriate to sit an exam in. :dozey: :monkey: :dunce: :mad:

danielf 08-06-2005 11:45
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird
:tu:

what we have is a teacher who decided that a boys school shoes were not appropriate to sit an exam in. :dozey: :monkey: :dunce: :mad:
The more you say it, the sillier it sounds :D

nffc 08-06-2005 12:13
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by nffc
err, excuse me whilst I choke on the irony :rolleyes:
To quote Inigo Montoya:

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means..."
Whoooosh.

Graham 08-06-2005 13:02
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
This is a bit off topic

6. Graham has a well thumbed copy of the Dictionary of Quotations which he puts to effective use
Actually, no I don't (although I've thought about buying it on more than one occasion, just never got around to it) it's just like the quizzes, I happen to know a whole bunch of stuff and that includes quotes (although I do tend to google to check sources/ original quoters).

Quote:
(although if we knew who Inigo whatsisname actually was that use would be even more effective!)
Have you *never* seen The Princess Bride??? If you haven't, go to your nearest video/ DVD supplier and get a copy because you've missed a real treat!

"My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die!"

Quote:
7. To mutual consternation Orangebird and I have found ourselves agreeing with each other
It's interesting to note the differences in the usual positions in this thread :)

Quote:
8. This thread is seemingly dead. It has ceased to be, intellectually speaking.
Not Pythonically speaking? :D
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by nffc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by nffc
err, excuse me whilst I choke on the irony :rolleyes:
To quote Inigo Montoya:

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means..."
Whoooosh.
Right sound, wrong head...! :rofl:
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
On the one hand we have the "Daily Mail" speculation that (paraphrased) "if we let the little buggers have an inch they'll take a mile and society will fall down around our ears" (something which doesn't actually seem to have happened) wheras on the other we have the evidence of children, especially those from minorities, being excluded from schools and, having nothing better to do/ no better guidance and ending up becoming criminals.

Perhaps you just jumped to a conclusion there?
Not at all,it was just an aside that I found amusing.

You were quite happy to deride the poster as a Daily Mail reader (the proposed chain of events he posted was not a quote from the Daily Mail)
I never said they *were* from the Daily mail. I *compared* his comments to the sort of ones that come from the Daily Mail. There's a noticable difference.

Quote:
for logging a possible but not a totally likely, or proven, chain of events that might happen if we don't enforce rules onto children.

And in the same post was quite happy to take on board and equally unproven and equally improbable chain of events that might happen by disciplining the child as your counter argument.

There is certainly no more evidence in the quote you posted to prove that excluded children all go on to be criminals than there was in the other post to prove that society would crumble.
Except that what I quoted was not "equally improbable" and that quote was just one from a whole *raft* of cites and examples from those links I posted several of which *do* demonstrate that children who are excluded from schools are more likely to become criminals.

Maggy 08-06-2005 13:26
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
OK so you think we should relax the exam rules..But which ones.By sticking to the rules on correct attire we then can keep the students minds on other appropriate behaviour in the exam room/hall.To not turn round,to not look at other candidates,to not talk to other candidates,not pass notes,to put your hand up to attract attention from invigilation staff,to not just walk out of the exam room,to not cheat in any manner.

An external exam is a very serious formal occasion.The rules are there for a very good reason-to maintain the integrity of external exams.Staff can be prosecuted for not upholding this integrity.Many staff who have redone or completely redone a students work or who have added to a students work have been prosecuted.

We have a duty to all the students in an exam not just to those who are late,who are not dressed correctly.If there is a question that we have not maintained the integrity of an exam it may call into question whether the exam results will stand.

So we treat these final exams with the solemnity they deserve.They are exams that have a legal and official standing in society-is it too much to expect that the candidates observe a few basic rules of dress?

andyl 08-06-2005 13:35
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
OK so you think we should relax the exam rules..But which ones.By sticking to the rules on correct attire we then can keep the students minds on other appropriate behaviour in the exam room/hall.To not turn round,to not look at other candidates,to not talk to other candidates,not pass notes,to put your hand up to attract attention from invigilation staff,to not just walk out of the exam room,to not cheat in any manner.

An external exam is a very serious formal occasion.The rules are there for a very good reason-to maintain the integrity of external exams.Staff can be prosecuted for not upholding this integrity.Many staff who have redone or completely redone a students work or who have added to a students work have been prosecuted.

We have a duty to all the students in an exam not just to those who are late,who are not dressed correctly.If there is a question that we have not maintained the integrity of an exam it may call into question whether the exam results will stand.

So we treat these final exams with the solemnity they deserve.They are exams that have a legal and official standing in society-is it too much to expect that the candidates observe a few basic rules of dress?
Coggy, I think you are extrapolating too far in suggesting that to have let this lad wear trainers it undermines other, more practical imperatives such as rules that prevent cheating etc. Quite how those trainers coukd undermine the integrity of an exam is beyond me - if they were flourescent pink then maybe, but they more or less resemble normal black shoes.

Maggy 08-06-2005 13:40
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
Coggy, I think you are extrapolating too far in suggesting that to have let this lad wear trainers it undermines other, more practical imperatives such as rules that prevent cheating etc. Quite how those trainers coukd undermine the integrity of an exam is beyond me - if they were flourescent pink then maybe, but they more or less resemble normal black shoes.
Why don't you just accept the word of a teacher who regularly invigilates in external exams? There is a very good reason to maintain DISCIPLINE in an exam.MORE THAN AT ANY OTHER TIME IN A STUDENT'S CAREER.Sheesh! I can't see how much more I can explain it. :rolleyes:

If you want it changed then get into the exam boards about it.I reckon they'd laugh you out of their offices.

orangebird 08-06-2005 13:51
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
OK so you think we should relax the exam rules..But which ones.By sticking to the rules on correct attire we then can keep the students minds on other appropriate behaviour in the exam room/hall.To not turn round,to not look at other candidates,to not talk to other candidates,not pass notes,to put your hand up to attract attention from invigilation staff,to not just walk out of the exam room,to not cheat in any manner.

An external exam is a very serious formal occasion.The rules are there for a very good reason-to maintain the integrity of external exams.Staff can be prosecuted for not upholding this integrity.Many staff who have redone or completely redone a students work or who have added to a students work have been prosecuted.

We have a duty to all the students in an exam not just to those who are late,who are not dressed correctly.If there is a question that we have not maintained the integrity of an exam it may call into question whether the exam results will stand.

So we treat these final exams with the solemnity they deserve.They are exams that have a legal and official standing in society-is it too much to expect that the candidates observe a few basic rules of dress?
No, it's not too much to expect. But, as they're so basic, was it not too much to ask that the boy be able to sit his exams in his outrageous black trainers with a firm warning that he would not be able to wear them again in the exams? Given that black trainers do not encourage other candidates to turn round, to look at other candidates,to talk to other candidates, pass notes,to put your hand up to attract attention from invigilation staff,to just walk out of the exam room,to cheat in any manner, I really think the teacher involved could've shown a little discretion.
Do you really think that ay other candidate would've given enough of a monkies behind what he was wearing on his feet to disturb their own exam sitting?

andyl 08-06-2005 13:56
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
Why don't you just accept the word of a teacher who regularly invigilates in external exams? There is a very good reason to maintain DISCIPLINE in an exam.MORE THAN AT ANY OTHER TIME IN A STUDENT'S CAREER.Sheesh! I can't see how much more I can explain it. :rolleyes:

If you want it changed then get into the exam boards about it.I reckon they'd laugh you out of their offices.
Whoah! ;) I totally take on board what you say about the sanctity of the exam system, the need to prevent cheating etc but I simply do not see how those black trainers undermine that system - especially if, as this lad alleges, he has been wearing them for several weeks. And I do think you need to balance the need for discipline and adherence to the rules with basic common sense which, on the face of it, has not been applied here.

Maggy 08-06-2005 14:03
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
In a word.DISCIPLINE!

I bet not one student has failed to attend any public exams in anything but the correct attire and with the correct attitude and mentality at this particular school since.

If the school backs down over one rule where does it end.This school chose to start at the correct attire rule.Not at the talking or passing notes stage.

Now I'm sick of going round in circles.

Bye.

nffc 08-06-2005 14:05
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
In a word.DISCIPLINE!

I bet not one student has failed to attend any public exams in anything but the correct attire and with the correct attitude and mentality at this particular school since.

If the school backs down over one rule where does it end.This school chose to start at the correct attire rule.Not at the talking or passing notes stage.

Now I'm sick of going round in circles.

Bye.
Don't worry, I'm with you as well.

andyl 08-06-2005 14:07
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Whilst I disagree with the thrust of Coggy's argument.... the going round in circles bit touched a nerve :) Time for lunch methinks

Chris 08-06-2005 14:10
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
In a word.DISCIPLINE!

I bet not one student has failed to attend any public exams in anything but the correct attire and with the correct attitude and mentality at this particular school since.

If the school backs down over one rule where does it end.This school chose to start at the correct attire rule.Not at the talking or passing notes stage.

Now I'm sick of going round in circles.

Bye.
Hear, hear. Would this boy's behaviour be considered acceptable if he worked for the Police, an airline or any other business with a strict dress or uniform code? Would anybody seriously expect an employer in such circumstances to allow it to pass with an indulgent 'just don't do it again', when there was no good reason for the breach of the rules in the first place? I fail to see why some people seem to be in such a hurry to trivialise the wearing of school uniform. School is preparation for life and life is full of rules and conventions that have to be obeyed for a variety of reasons. If this boy has, after 11 years, failed to learn this simple lesson, then on his own head be it.

Stuart 08-06-2005 14:22
Re: School stands up for discipline and rules
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrolyte
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Quite correct, if this exam was so important to him why didn't he take the schools offer of wearing a pair of shoes, just for an hour or two while he sat his exam.
He wouldn't use a pair from lost property (or what ever it is called) as he stated he had medical problems with his feet.
I don't know the school, or exactly what happened. However, one thing I do know is that at Uni, we have procedures in place that enable us to make allowances for students with medical conditions. I'll admit that students are allowed to wear what they want anyway, so there are no rules for what they wear in exams (unless they turn up with the answers written all over their shirt), but I am pretty sure the school would have procedures in place for them to make allowances for medical conditions.


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