Re: f1 misery
 

You can read the correspondance between the race director, charlie Whiting, and Michelin. Published here.. www.fia.com

Re: f1 misery
 

:tu: Totally agree with you

Re: f1 misery
 

REFUND (i can start hearing it already)

Re: f1 misery
 

Certainly is :)

Re: f1 misery
 

You could stop the race but you couldn't reshedule it, certainly not in an already tight calendar. It's not like a football match which can be played anywhere at a moments notice. There are 10 teams from Europe with all their cars, equipment, hundreds of tyres etc etc. - Impossible.

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do i see fans leaving already !!!

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For the first time, F1 "racing" is actually better on the radio (especially lounging about in the sunny garden). ;)

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dunno - I have turned it off :(

My consolation is that I didn't pay for a ticket, travel, food and possibly accommodation - 120,000 very upset punters, - I imagine many of them will be claiming compensation...

I'm afraid the FIA have lost the plot, Formula One has become a laughing stock :erm:

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At least schumacher is still racing LOL

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i too was enjoying the sun, should have given it a miss for BBQ and Beer.

Bang, Michael almost missed Rubens. He never gives it up, does he. Ferrari can take an extra pit stop and still get away with 1 and 2 today. how awful it can be for F1. :mad:

Re: f1 misery
 

You would not say that if someone was killed.
Apparently all the teams bar one agreed to the introduction of a chicane at the problem corner. I will give you one guess which team that was, and I blame them, not the Michelin teams.:(
If all the teams had stuck together, I am certain the FIA would have backed down.

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I would imagine that promoters would probably have enough clauses in their terms and conditions on the ticket so that there is no chance for a compensation claim in these kinds of circumstances.
Afterall, they did put on a race. A completely crap race but still technically a race.
A class action law suit might give it some weight though.

Michelin might want to make a jesture of goodwill to paying punters but I don't think a free set of their tyres would be a good idea under the circumstances. ;)

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you are likely to be correct about the t&c's, I hadn't thought of that.

:rofl: at the last bit :D

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I Think that olg G*T Bernie should retire and hand over to a person who will run F1 for the fans and not to scr*w them.

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there's still time to catch the end of the batman begins 400 (nascar) on nasn.

now thats what i call motor racing not that load of six car crap thats just been on itv.

and did you notice ferrari even engineered that for schumacher to win.
on lap 11 when rb told them to (according to james allen) hold station.
funny how they didn't tell them to hold station when barichello was leading.

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this was a disaster for Bernie - he won't get the second US race on the calendar he wanted, now - this farce wasn't his fault.

- off to watch Top Gear ;)

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What a load of codswallop that was, the non-event of the 2005 season, hope at the end of the day all points scored here are quashed. :(

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Anyone able to upload it to me, my digi box is naffed :(

Re: f1 misery
 

You blame Ferrari for the other teams turning up without adequate equipment?

So if you went for a job interview and was told in advance that you had to prepare a series of presentations, and did, then arrived and discovered that the other candidates hadn't managed it, would you be happy if they demanded that the interview be rearranged without the bits they couldn't come up with?

Ferrari turned up with a set of tyres that worked, and beat everyone who wanted to race against them. If the Michelin teams chose not to race, that's their decision, their responsibility, and no one elses. Not Ferraris, not Bernie Ecclestone's: theirs.

One good thing about this is that next year we'll get to dump the tedious US GP and run a race in a country that actually cares about F1.

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Well like they always say divided we fall united we stand. So you all know who will be the first for an easy win shame they didn't crash out I really wanted them to.

Re: f1 misery
 

WTF you on? michellin failed to bring the right tyres for the job, and the FIA would not make any move to sort the track out, this calls for all teams to run on the same tyres.

Re: f1 misery
 

good point, Roy, I'm watching champ car on eurosport just now - no wonder the americans are confused by F1 :dozey:

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What a farce.

We went to water the garden after the first few laps.

It became obvious that the yanks were not impressed with the amount of stuff chucked on the track in disgust, allthough this could have been bloody dangerous but I do sympathise, I would certainly be looking for a refund / rebate if I had paid to watch it!!!

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Well that was Formula Farce, wasn't it?

I think Bernie et al really thought they could browbeat everyone into going on and racing no matter what and figured that when they had them out on the grid they'd all start.

Unfortunately their bluff was well and truly called and then ended up with an utter nonsense of the race that has destroyed not only the credibility of F1 but probably also any chance of F1 races in the USA for the next few years as well.

It is wrong and unfair to blame the teams for "not bringing the right equipment", the tyres are supplied by Michelin, not the teams and so it's not as if it's any one team that "made a mistake".

This was an exercise in brinkmanship and Bernie and Co. lost, big time.

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I agree Bernie lost big time - that is why I question what happened was what he wanted, I don't think it was :dozey:

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About time that twit had egg on his face for once IMO

Did any one see the interview he did with Brudell before the race, he gave me the impression that he wanted to run away, as did the Michelin guy, who virtually did!!!

Farce.

Re: f1 misery
 

Going for a job interview and crashing a car at 200 mph into a wall, good analogy that.:erm: .
No one is denying that a mistake was made, but with a little common sense and a small change to the track the race could have gone ahead with all the cars. I just realised I said common sense, something in rather short supply in F1 ATM.

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I agree Bernie lost big time - that is why I question what happened was what he wanted, I don't think it was :dozey:[/QUOTE]

What else *could* he have wanted?

There's no way he'd want the nonsense of 6 cars "racing" but he'd painted himself into a corner and IMO he couldn't see any way out without making himself look even weaker and his hold on F1 is getting pretty tenuous as it is with others trying to move in on "his territory.

Re: f1 misery
 

Fact is that Ferrari didn't disagree to the introduction of the chicane :dozey:

They were the only team who said they would still race even if the chicane
was not in place :rolleyes:
Then Jordan backed down and Minardi felt they had to also :rolleyes:

At no time were the FIA gonna put in a chicane.
The teams had their option, change tyres and suffer a penalty.
At the end of the day this aint Ferrari's fault and it aint the Michelin teams fault.
It is the fault of Michelin themselves :mad: :mad: :mad:

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The race was doomed the moment Michelen found the serious fault and said it would be unsafe. No-one could go out under such circumstances unless modifications could be made to replace the tyres or slow cars down a lot.

We only have to look back to the court cases that have occurred in after major crashes to see how liability, both civil and criminal would still apply. McClaren (or was it Williams? ) took a long while after Senna's death extracting themselves from the Italian legal system.

What I fail to understand is given the timing when the problem was known, that the race could not have been deemed "void". Those teams not on Michelin tyres get the points in default. Michelen runners get nothing as effectively they are graded "did not start".

At that point then an "exhibition race" could have been held, at least offering some sort of proper event. A Chicane or whatever could then have been provided to ensure safety could be achived.

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just an utter farce with no one looking at the bigger picture of the sports regard in the USA, seriously would you want to host F1 at your track next year. I think they'd be lucky to sell 50,000 next year, compared to NASCAR 400,000 at Indy........

I haven't searched this thread or heard it mentionned on the ITV coverage (top notch today i think we'd all agree) but what would have been the big problem of Bridgestone suppling all the teams. I'm well aware of the specifics of set ups and tyres but if they knew Fri, made that choice and tested we'd have had a race today.

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They knew on Friday that the tyres were a problem and had a couple of days to sort something out. It doesn't really matter whose fault it was, the future of F1 was at stake and should have been one of the prime considerations. The powers that be handled it very badly.

Some of the rule changes this year have been stupid, particularly the tyre rules and the engine must last two races rule. I don't know why they introduced these changes, it couldn't have been for safety reasons.

I ccouldn't believe it when they were talking about refunds and I heard what it cost to get into the US Grand Prix, $85. Wish that was all we had to pay over here.

What's the betting that someone tries to start a rival company for F1 like has happened in the States with Indy car and Cart.

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Engine lasting two races was to reduce costs, in theory, a major concern for some of the lesser teams who struggle to compete. Even so doesn't work that well as the big boys have more money to develop in to making their engines last longer.

The tyres I think was another, failed, attempt to slow cars down and make overtaking more likely. Not really seen evidence that shows that is or isn't working. I suspect other changes like wing sizes have had just as much effect (cars now loose grip when approaching behind others that they still can't pass easily).

As for swapping to Bridgestone tyres, I doubt that is safe too. Bridgesoten and Michelen tyres are different construction and weight. The whole car handling would change dramatically, and if they have no test data, i suspect teams just wouldn't know how well the car would stay glued to the track.
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There has been a lot of talk already I beleive amongst many of the teams, with Bernie struggling to hold the different factions together.

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Does anyone think that changing tyres in pit stops would have been an answer here?

Not to mention bringing an element of excitement back to the sport?

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i can understand why the teams ddn't want to race, but when the solution amounted to putting some cones up to create an extra chicane, you have to wonder what the people in charge are up to...
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not really, th teams would inevitably still be pushing the performance envelope of the tyres.

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IMHO the problem here is Michelin.

There's no way that an extra chicane should have been introduced, just to allow the Michelin runners to participate.

Michelin knew what the rules were regarding changes of tyres, they knew what the conditions on the track were like, if they had done their homework properly they would have come to the track with a tyre that was capable of doing what it was supposed to do.

At the end of the day they are to blame for the farsical situation that unfolded today, not the teams, not the drivers, and not the FIA.

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But it is the only one in the country - imagine as a F1 fan you have flown from say LA to FLA to watch it and then get this. $$$ in airfare and hotels as well as the $85 for a ticket.
Most Europeans go to their country race, a far shorter distance.

I assume the other reason the M teams did not race was driver insurance, car not safe as tyres not save = no driver insurance = hideous cost if driver dies as result of tyre burst.

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The thing is, though, they didn't know what the conditions were like with the current incarnation of F1 cars, nor had they had experience with banked tracks which is what caused the stress problems with the tyres.

Bridgestone OTOH had a major advantage because their sister company, Firestone, supplies tyres to all the Indy cars etc, so they would know much more about how the banking affects tyre stresses.

Re: f1 misery
 

It appears that a lot of people think that Ferrari's intransigence did not help.
The Michelin teams even offered to allow all the Bridgestone runners to start at the front of the grid and Ferrari alone refused.

FI Shame

Quote.
'Sadly Ferrari and the sport's governing body, the FIA, did not see it that way, refusing to acquiesce'

Re: f1 misery
 

I think Ferrari are guilty of not understanding what the game is about...the clue is in the word motorsport. They behaved, although within the rules, in a most unsportsmanlike manner, and I was unhappy at Jordan making a last minute change of mind to take part...presumably under some sort the veiled threat from the FIA. As Minardi are so close to Jordan in the rankings, they had little choice but to compete too.

Personally I think this situation has the potential to rock F1 to the core, perhaps terminally. Hopefully an awful lot of mediation will be taking place right now to prevent that.

I picked up this post from a professional photographer who attends motorsport meetings...interesting reading, especially the bit about Bridgestone being tipped off about the dreadful diamondcut track surface:

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You can't blame individuals.

The problem is with everyone in the sport. The Teams, The FIA.

Fair enough if there is a safety issue is has to be adressed, but if it couldn't be resolved in time before the race couldn'e they at least have put the chicane in and call it a non-championship race and least give the crowd a race to watch.

Just who do these people think they are, people paid hundreds of dollars and travelled hundreds of miles for this, and this is how they are treated.

I would be furious and the crowd should get their money back and the FIA and teams should pay for it.

The FIA and Teams are so full of their own importance and tied up in the politics of it all that they have lost sight of just what is important. The fans. We just want to watch a race.

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Jordan and Minarda seem to be blaming each other for breaking the agreement not to race. In the end it was money that decided the issue. The points they gained from the race guaranteed them a few million more in travel money for next season.

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Hi.

http://www.planet-f1.com/features/ra...ry_19992.shtml

Look at the section about Bridgestone having the wrong tyres in 2003.

What happened on Sunday was down to Bernie Ecclestone and friends. He has been talking about a 1 tyre supplier for the last couple of months, and Michelins mistake dropped into his lap along with the help of Ferrari.
Yes Michelin were at fault, but the race could have been run but the same thing happened as has happened before, 9 teams agree and one doesn't.

More damage has been done to F1 by running 6 cars than if the race had been declared void, let us not forget the free points that Ferrari got, sort of changes the whole championship now, maybe a sweetener for MS, especially as there has been talk about him quitting this year, what a nice Fathers day present from Bernie.

We have not heard the last of this and it brings the rival breakaway teams ever nearer, the F1A have only themselves to blame.

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Let's face it, money was one of the main reasons that people wouldn't back down or agree to the chicane. How much extra camera time did each car (and therefor the cars sponsors) get due to only 6 cars running? Several ideas were put forward by the teams, chicane, driving for no points if you changed tyres, starting from the rear of the grid etc. All of which could have resolved the problem. One team vetoed the ideas (if what has been said is correct) and that team should be ashamed of themselves doing so.

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from reading all the comments from the teams, FIA, Michelin etc each one is saying in a rather childish and petty manner "It's your fault". That uis the problem everyone wanted to blame someone else rather than saying this is a problem how can we solve it.

If the teams can't look beyond their own self interests i.e Ferrari voting no to the chicane, then the FIA should step in and do this for them.. if all the teams just think of themselves then none of the races will take place

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I read / heard that Ferrari were not against the chicane, nor for, just silent.

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The issue seems to be that the tyre couldn't run at high speed on that particular banked corner. Why not just brake down to a safe speed for the corner then?

Personally I think F1 in its entirety is a farce. Has been for years.

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look at what happened in Monaca when Montoya was slow in practice and the other cars around him weren't.. there was a big crash... how much should the teams slow down ?

the FIA should have found a solution.. as someone pointed out in Brasil a few years ago Bridgestone were allowed to bring another rain tyre they hadn't niminated on the grounds of safety and in 94 we had chicanes in Spain and Belgium

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It wasn't considered safe to have the Bridgestone runners taking the bend at full speed, while the Michelin runners were having to slow down, also no-one was prepared to commit to what would be 'guaranteed' to be a safe speed.

I'm trying to think of something to refute your last comment - and I can't. :(

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How easy would it have been to put a new chicane in though? You can't just put a few cones there and hope the drivers don't knock them out of the way.

Drivers deliberately slowing down for the corner just wouldn't work. They are there to win and would still take the corner at full throttle. Look at Kimi in the Canadian GP when he took the risk with his tyres and wrecked the car.

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I don't think there was an option to provide alternative Michelin tyres. I've read that Michelin looked into that, but as all their tyres relied on the same basic construction they were all likely to fail. It wasn't the compound, it was how they actually moulded them.

Simply put the only way there could have been a safe race was to slow all cars down on the bend. That needed a chicane. There wasn't agreement on that. F1 looses what credibility it had.

Touring cars and similar "lesser" classes are much more interesting.

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they brought another tyre out for the Sunday morning session and that tyre had the same problem..

maybe if Bridgestone had shared the Indy 500 track data it had with Michelin this wouldn't have happened

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You would have thought someone, somewhere would have forseen this problem though? How can Michellin design a tyre, and not look at all the courses in the season? Surely before the season began, someone should have looked at the US course and knew the tyres wouldn't be safe.

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i don't know enough about tyre construction to answer that but during the 500 the IRL teams had problems with the tyres and the surface.. in fact this was only diamond ground down before the race due to the problems so it only changed in May.. there is no testing at this venue either

Even the FIA say they don't know enough about tyres to police these things properly.

I have no doubt if Ferrari weren't able to start the race a solution would have been found

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

But why should Bridgestone share the information? They are employed by a number of teams to provide tyres, and perform their own R&D - Michelin should have done the same thing.

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Bridgestone raced at the Indy 500 and Michelin didn't they could have shared the data on the track surface with Michelin in the interests of safety, although i doubt even Bridgestone knew this situation would arise..

that is one of the problesm with F1 today each team, engine manufacturer etc only looks after it's own interests and so never share data with each other etc

Re: f1 misery
 

More to the point, as I said above:

"I tried a million things and thought that if we could get them on the grid we were halfway there." - Bernie Ecclestone.

He figured he could call the team's bluff and that if they got to the grid they'd cave in and go ahead and race. Too late he found out they weren't bluffing.
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The thing is, the diamondcut surface was designed to give Indy Cars greater grip as they're the ones that use that track most of the time, so it's not fair to describe it as dreadful simply because F1 cars are different.
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The irony is that, if they *had* only one tyre supplier and it had been Michelin, there wouldn't have *BEEN* a race without a chicane, full stop!
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You can't have one lot of cars going through a corner at a slow speed with another lot blasting past at full whack, that would be a recipie for utter mayhem and definitely not safe.
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But they can't test at Indianapolis and that's the only one with a high speed banked corner in it, so there's no comparable data from other tracks for Michelin.

It wasn't until they took Ralph Schumacher's tyre away and analysed it at a laboratory that they realised what the problem actually was.

Bridgestone, OTOH, knew from Firestone what sort of stresses the tyres would encounter and manufactured accordingly.

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i wonder what would have happened had ferrari therefore michael schumacher been running on michelin tyres.
i bet a compromise would have been reached then.

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i agree there even if it had just been Ferrari they would have done something instead of just stood there blaming each other

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according to f1-live.com,champcars are going to give free entry to the next champ car race to anybody who had a ticket for yesterdays f1 race.
why couldn't f1 come up with something to appease the fans,even if it was another usa grand prix at the end of the season (non points).

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time for a big big big shake up in f1 management methinks :tu:

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Michelin should have offered a refund of all the tickets. Ok, it would have cost them a few million quid, but to a company that size that would practically be petty cash and it would have at least helped mollify the ill-feeling a little.

The Indianapolis Speedway is telling people who want refunds they "should complain directly to Formula One's rulers and French tyre company Michelin".

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle...toryID=8831737

Although that article also says: "Williams said Indianapolis promoter Tony George and Formula One commercial supremo Bernie Ecclestone had both agreed to the chicane in a meeting with teams on Saturday night but FIA president Max Mosley had vetoed it.

"Bernie called (FIA race director) Charlie (Whiting) on Saturday night and said get on with it," said Williams, who pointed out several precedents including the 1994 Belgian Grand Prix at Spa-Francorchamps."

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If Bridgestone manufactured a tyre specifically for this race you have to ask yourself why, was it on performance grounds or safety, or a combination of both. If it was in even the slightest way for safety considerations, then they have a moral duty to inform the others of this. I would suspect that had a fatal accident occured and it was later revealed that Bridgestone witheld information that could have prevented it, they would be in deep trouble.
If Bridgestone knew of safety concerns, then Ferrari also knew, if Ferrari knew then it is a cast iron certainty that M Schumacher knew. It is rather ironic that the one driver to have major, life threatening crash was none other the Ralf Schumacher.
I'm am sure that if my little brother was about to go round a track at 200mph with suspect tyres I would have told him.

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I am afraid Ferrari were against the chicane, Ross Brawne said after the race that if the chicane was going to be built, he and Ferrari bosses would have vetoed it.

Another interesting thing, isn't Michael Shuemacker (can't spell his name so MS from now on) the drivers spokesman for safety issues. Where was he in all this, did he know what the outcome was going to be? Did he put his role as safety spokesman aside so he an RB (can't spell his name either) can get easy points?

See what happens now the 7 teams have been summoned to a meeting with fhe FIA. Max Mosley was also behind this, he thought he would give the teams who want to breakaway a lesson, just as he did with Bar. Who were the other teams using the same fuel tank, odds on we know who one was.

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what i cant work out is ..... , ho many years have they run there now , 4/5 or more and they couldnt provide a tyre that was suitable , summat wrong here :confused:

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the tracks been diamond cut since laast year so .therefore its more abrasive so you can't use previous years tyre info.

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Also the current incarnation of F1 cars (if you'll pardon the pun) have less downforce, meaning the tyres are more likely to slide and thus put more stress on them.

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Personally I would like to see tyre changes in the pits again, it makes it more exciting (due to teamwork) and could *maybe* solve this problem...

Who knows, but personally i think this seasons rules suck.

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Looking at the FIA site, I look with dismay at:
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press...160605-02.html#

This Mickey Mouse Formula!

There are OTHER formulas which are much more "unified" ... F1 is expensive, high tech - SO?
If teams don't have the budhget to compete, then they can drop out - why should the teams that CAN do it, be eviscerated to the level of those that can't?

Maybe a more unified formula where the drivers make much more difference, would be better, but it would not be F1 - and if F1's time has passed, then it's time for something different to replace it.

Roll on the breakaway!

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I agree, looks like they are hell bent on sapping the enjoyment factor (from watching) out of it...

Sad, just sad...

:(

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What makes me laugh most in that is the phrase "Formula One must not be allowed to become a money-spending competition. "

What's this "must not be alllowed" business? What the hell is it now?! :rolleyes:

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correct , it is more abrasive , so therefore , tyre wear is going to be more agressive , this wasnt the issue ;)


and you are trying to tell me that they couldnt work out the imposed loads on the tyres :erm:

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

Exactly :rolleyes:

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Putting on my Health & Safety hat.

I'm not a lover of the french, but I'm 101% behind Michelin, they did the correct thing, with 9 non dangerous incidents, and 2 major.
They will take a lot of flak.

Removing my Health & Safety hat

The teams couldn't go against Michelin because if an accident happened the teams would have been liable, and risked been sued up to the eye-balls.

Max & Bernie should resign imediately without any golden million pound handshake.

With the news that the 7 teams face penalties , it would been great if they threaten to boycott the French GP (along with the 2 Bridgestone teams that make up the 9 breakaway teams).

They should introduce a rule that they need at least 7-8 teams agree to changes rather than 100% agreement.

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With H&S hat still on...

Why the f should the teams be facing penalties for eering on the side of caution? I thought that was what it weas all about?

H&S Hat off...

Would have liked to have seen 'some sort of a race' though....

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

AIUI it wasn't simply a matter of the imposed loads, but also the amount of heat that was generated in the tyre and that it wasn't being dissipated sufficiently which was causing the junction between the side wall and the tread to fail.

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sorry but i still find it hard to believe that they could not forsee it happening :angel:

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But that's with 20/20 hindsight.

The fact that they had to take the tyres to a laboratory to test before they even knew *what* had caused Ralph Schumacher's crash suggests that it was well outside their usual experiences.

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fair comment :) , i am still skeptical tbh , something is definitely not right here , think about it , how many years have michelin been in the sport ??? , and there was no way they could have forseen this :( , having said that , i hope this is the last time it happens , as i see it , this could potentially kill off F1 in america unless there is some serious humble pie eating going on :erm:

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How many years have Boeing been building airplanes, it doesn't stop the odd one from crashing, your hypothosis suggests that Michelin knew the tyres would fail, something I find even harder to believe.

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ok - I've got this idea, these really fragile, but 'state of the art' cars will come & race on the tracks in the USA, the way to sell it is the slick professionalism of the operation, the attention to detail & the technology .....

- and like everyone else, I feel incredibly let down and bewildered

one thing about the diamond cut track - isn't the F1 race run the 'wrong' way, compared to indy/champ ?

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fair comment , but , aligning this with aircraft failing is a bit far fetched :(



should it make any difference though , of the cars that ran , was tyre wear a problem :angel:

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major change this year, last year trye changes were allowed on pit stops, this year they have to ast for qualifying and the entire race, so they been redesigned.

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good point , but i still cannot believe that michelin have been so naieve when bridgestone have not :(

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

I think Michelen have no doubt that they messed up. I don't think naivety came into it. They just got their sums wrong. Plain and simple.

Problem is that affected the majority of teams. Tyres are just about the only "common" component in F1. Everything else the teams do is independent. Yes some teams have had parts that may not be reliable in the past, but that places the individual team with that fault at a disadvantage, the rest are free to get on with the job.

The problem here is that Michelin were virtually certain that their tyres would not last. Moreover they knew that if they failed, ther probability would be when they were under most stress, repeating a crash that had already ocurred, with possibly far more serious consequences. IN today's liable world I don't see that Michelen had any other choice but to put their hands up and admit the tyres were unsafe. Comparisons with Boeing, etc just don't relate especially when you consider all the efforts made by airlines to get a high safety record.

The issue is thus not so much that Michelin had a fault, but how F1, the teams and the rule makers handled or failed to handle it.

The press statement from FIA is an appalling whitewash trying to blame everyone and basically saying they had nothing to do with it. http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press...200605-01.html

The fact is that their idea that all but 6 cars would have had to run, vastly slower than the others round a high speed bend was practical and safe strikes me as ludicrous. Does F1 not still have the 107% rule (cars slower than 107% of the fastest car do not qualify for the race)? That was there precisely because of the risks of incompatible closing speeds.

I'm sure this one will run and run. It's about the only "interesting" thing to hit F1 for years.

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

That "statement" is nothing more than a desperate attempt by the FIA to weasel out of any resonsibility. They claim that Michelin have "brought F1 into disrepute", but the FIA's behaviour makes this pale into insignificance.

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

The tyre rule should have been allow tyre changes on pit stops but not allowing to change type, so the extra element of keeping same type of tyre for race stays but it stays safe.

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

Surely that is becase Bridgestone got data from Firestone who had already raced on the track but Michelin had no such data.

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

you've also got to remember how these tyres are made.. instead of being rubber filled with air they are a carbon fibre material, with rubber around that filled with nitrogen.. chemicals are then bonded with the rubber to and it is the reaction of that chemical with the track that generates heat and grip.. that heat then has to dissipate throught the sidewall of the tyre..

Michelin brought 2 tyres to the track with different chemicals to provide different levels of grip and durability but they were still manufactured in the same way.. the problem was that the build up of heat was greater than they expected because of the new surface and the heat wasn't dissipating through the sidewall.. this led to the tyre failures and was the same with both sets of tyres they brought

Michelin had never run an Indy since last year and obviously they had very litle data on the new surface unlike Bridgestone.. you can't expect them to just make a new tyre in 24 hours in a completely new way they would be even more dangerous

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

Agree completely. The FIA are acting in an appaling manner now rather than doing the right thing and trying to bring everyone back together to ensure this kind of thing doesn't happen again.

I don't think that would have made a great difference to this race as Michelin were only able to bond the tyres for 10 laps, so you'd need 7 changes.

From what I can make out this is exactly what they offered to do, but the FIA's position was that each team that used one of these tyres would be penalised for doing so. Damned if you, damned if you don't.

There have been lots of musings about a breakaway Formula 1 franchise (minus Ferrari by all accounts). I think this whole situtation might accelerate this, and we might get back to real motor sport again.

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

they brought a new tyre out for Sunday but basically it was made in the same way and so had the same problem

As for the FIA's idea that 14 cars should go through turn 13 slowly that was totally ludicrous and that's from the governing body who are supposed to be there for safety.

As far as I can tell there were 2 solutions.. install a chicane, unfair to Birdgestone, unless the Michelin runnings didn't score points

Run the race at a later date

What would have been ironic would have been if a Bridgestone car had a tye problem during the race.. thankfully no one was injured during the weekend which should be the most import thing

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

They would have been penalised anyway if they ran a different tyre from Sat to Sun...but I thought they did plan to redesign in time for the race...but I may be wrong on this.

Absolutely. That solution would be as dangerous, if not more so than running unsafe tyres.

I guess this is where we will all have our opinions. IMHO, installing the chicane woud have been unfair on the Bridgestone teams if the Michelin teams didn't offer to surrender any points they gained in the race.

I think although it wasn't an ideal situation, it was a most sportsmanlike offer and of course would have pleased 120,000 punters in the stands and tens of millions of viewers around the world. It would have also made the FIA and Ferrari look good, unlike now where they look like the baddies.

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

I think quite alot of the problem stemmed from the attitude of the teams bosses they went to the fia as 9 teams saying 'we wont race unless you put a chicane in'
which to me is the wrong approach, if i was the fia i would of told them where to shove it.
If however they said 'we cant race as it is but we will race if you put a chicane in' they might have gotten a better response, simple as it they tried to bully the fia as for them saying ferrari objected to there proposals, because they're not part of there gang they were NEVER ASKED if they would race with a chicane in.
I dont support ferrari's antics by any means nor do i what the other 9 teams do its just ludicrus

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yes you are right there but each party was just blaming everyone else..

once they had said they can't race and couldn't come up with a solution for them to all agree on then the FIA as the governing body should have come up with one.. instead they were just as petty and childish and said these are the rules it's your fault.. that attitude didn't help anything either

it also says alot of the attitude of everyone that the 9 teams couldn't stick the the agreement they made and the GPDA, even without Montoya who isn't a member, couldn't have come up with a mass driver pull out to force the FIA into action.

It's just another case, all be it the biggest and most public one to date, of none of the teams being able to look beyond their own selfish interests. The sport really needs a dictator to take charge and just sort the rules out with no political agenda as the teams themselves can't do this as this shows

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

According to what I read on another site in 2003 at the Brazilian GP Bridgestone brought intermediates while Michelin brought a full wet. There was a huge rainfall that day. It was Bridgestones fault for only bringing intermediates so why did Whiting delay the start of the race and then put the cars out behind the safety car to clear water from the track. Obiviously for safety reasons, but surely this was unfair to Michelin, after all a bridgestone driver won the race. So if he did it in that case, why didn't he make a change for safety reasons in this case?

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

i posted a link to planet-f1.com which mentions that as well... what you have to remember is that this involves Ferrari so it's ok to change the rules.. remember 99 i think where they were banned because their barge boards were too big and then when they were measured again it was all ok

don't forget Ferrari are the only team signed up from 08 and beyond as well

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle...toryID=8853933

........ didn't take long did it.

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

Not bad, would have been quicker if they was not ruled to only have certain thickness shoes while leaving the arena after being checked for dual pockets, and banned for cigarette advertisment.



;)

Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

Can't really blame them IMO, I would have been well ****ed off if I had have gone myself...

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what gets me is in any normal country you would just complain to the FIA, Indy etc and get a refund.. in the US it has to be a lawsuit.. that means paying lawyers plus all the court costs that have to be paid by taxes etc.. surely this should be thrown out they should be told to complain through the normal channels which i'm sure these people probably didn't.. it's just the typically US i'll sue mentatity