Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

You may actually have a point - I don't see a nation of lesbians springing up after watching Trisha :disturbd:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

:LOL: And a greenie for making me laugh..

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Carefully avoiding the second part of the question I see!!!

So I will reitterate in a clearer manner, a child brought up in a gay couples home after being there for years and seeing his/her parents as a gay couple will in no way have influenced any enhanced curiosity towards trying that kind of relationship his/her main role models have displayed

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Sincerest apoligues coggie - it wasn't meant (how I now can see) how it looks and a smilie would've beein in order :( - I don't think we've ever had the need to get beyond anywhere... :erm:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I'm confused by what you're saying. Taking that logic then how do straight parents rear gay children? Blimey, takes me back to the ludicrous days of Section 28 and the so-called "promotion" of homesexuality.

As for Spain, a good and enlightened decision. Not sure about calling the country 'backward' though O/B. I mean under Section 28 days, not so long ago, what were we? ;)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

No. No more than any child from a 'regular' family. I firmly believe most people have at some point been curious about what it would be like to have a same sex relationship. If you're theory is true ( that gay parents could influence a child to be gay) - how the hell do all those man-woman parents end up with gay children?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Keeping in tune with the thread topic - are you saying you and coggy actually got somewhere??????? :eek:
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A straight child is surely going to be asking questions why they are not attracted to someone of the same sex just like "mummy and mummy"/"daddy and daddy" are? Perhaps they may get confused in to actually trying a same-sex relationship out of feeling compelled to? I base my views on marriage on what my parents did/said.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

How far do you go with legalising/promoting devience? There are people into bestiality. If they wanted to marry a sheep should this be allowed because they want it? What if they wanted to adopt a child? Would the sheep be a good mother? (Ewe bet...)

I'm going to have to stop writing this as I am laughing too much :)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

:D No! just that I don't recall we ever had a bad or diagreeable place to get beyond...
Maybe - just like a child from a mum-dad relationship might feel compelled try a straight relationship before they admit they're gay. But it's not an ultimate influence. I believe you're born either straight or gay ( imo it's down to your genetic make up). A gay couple could no more influence a child to be gay than a straight couple could for their child to be straight. :shrug:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

So going by OB's & your logic then gay couples are more likely to rear hetro children ?

And if you were male and as there are a large quantity of gays, associated with some gay men not one of them would ever make any kind of pass and vice versa for the females.

Wrong Wrong Wrong
I dont know where your logic comes from but I speak from real life experience.
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Any chance of there becoming legal necrophilia marriages ?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

But then again, that which decides our gender may be something we have not even heard of yet.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Where did I say that? I don't think parents can determine their child's sexuality.

Grammar please! Are you saying if there are gay men/women about then they are going to make a pass at people of the same sex? People of the opposite sex do that to each other all the time, especially on a Friday night after a few WKDs. What's your point

I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you are on about!
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Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Maybe that's where the argument really lies then.

I believe it's in genetic make up. You fancy someone - a reaction of hormones - a physical chemical reaction within the makeup of your body determines (in this respect) what gender you do or don't find attractive. You can't (or indeed couldn't until recently) dictate having a boy or girl, or what colour eyes the baby will have. I beleive the same of someones sexuality. You're born into it.
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*sigh* No! By my theory, you can't influence a childs sexuality or rear a child to be of certain persuasion at all!!!!!! :sleep:

Out of curiosity, maybe. As a life stlye choice statement and true honest commitment? No.

Funny, you read my mind....


:rofl: :rofl: :rolleyes:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Then again not everyone believes that and neither should they be derided for doing so. I donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t agree with the genetics deciding your sexuality as you say †“ itââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s not cut and dried. There are heterosexual people who may find someone of the same sex attractive but do not feel enough to act on it.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Then we will (in the most civil way) agree to disagree. :)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

That's most unlike you....finishing early today or something???? :D

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

lol... No. Am bored now. :) Am also i a very good mood, and don't want it spolit. ;)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Gay marriages are just so sick. Before you think I'm a thug I want you to know that I ahve a few good friends that are gay. They think that marriage is out of the question too, and would not want to (they laugh at the Canadians who have been doing this for a while).

I agree with the earlier poster about beastiality. Just because a lot of people do it, and enjoy it, and harm no on, is it right?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Sick?! :(

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Erm, you seem to be forgetting the fact that gay relationships are of mutual consent, and bestiality (FYI: there's no such thing as beastiality), is the rape of an animal. (Unless you happy to be Dr Dolittle and ask the animal first).

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Ah so gays do try to have some sexuall influence on others or they dont. which is it ?
You cannot have it both ways

As for parents determining sexuality you seem to fail to grasp that, im not saying the gay parents are going to force the child deliberatly into such sexuality but the enviroment the child is brought up in is very relevant to it.

As for OB's statement all gays are born that way, believe what you will, in my experience that most certainly is not the case for all gay people.
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Ah really ?

well I beg to differ. I knew a few gays in my past who would never try to make any kind of move on me sexually, but what do you know I also know gays who did try to influence my sexuallity, no I was never curious, man and man makes me feel seriously ill, but still they tried. I also knew at a time in my past gays who are regularly commit date rape with alcohol and other drugs to full on rapists, who just so happen to blame their desires on their alcohol problems etc.
The date rapers also often go for under age people just not so young that it would be classed as full paedophile but underage sex. And the attitude of some gay men is a very bias opinion. ie all men are gay they just dont admit it, and all bikers are gay, they just use the biker image to appear not gay, etc etc etc.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

What precisely are the specifics of this environment of which you speak. What particular events in a gay parental relationship would trigger your steam valve.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

:shocked: :shocked: I am truly suprised by this because of that fact that it's Spain we're talking about here.

I mean, just a couple of decades ago in Spain under Franco's regime, Spain was a very conservative country. The Catholic Church had an extremely strong influence there and was responsible for the education in the country. At one point, no other religions could even be advertised and the catholic church had control over all the books that were published there. Even nowadays 80% of the country are practicing catholics.

A good decision IMO :tu: but surprising one from Spain.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Just because "The Church" has been involved in some good social changes doesn't mean that it will automatically continue. Personally I believe that it's currently doing a lot of harm to the world and its population. Do you honestly think if religion wasnââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t involved in the changing of the legislation you mentioned weââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢d still be shoving kids up chimneys? Canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t see it myself.

This is where we differ, yes everyone has the right to try and influence society, however I don't believe that those changes should be sent down from "on high", dictated either from a Pope or a book. If people have genuine concerns about something then thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s great let them lobby on the issue. However just to state that their religion condones it then its wrong to allow that to affect others lives.

Thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s not my point Chris and you know it. My point is that I personally feel it unacceptable that religious views are being forced on people who don't have the same convictions. In lobbying to keep the law the same (which I assume from your posts you want) then you are imposing your (religious) beliefs on me any many others, not just on this issue but also on others.

Like I have said before, I have no religious convictions and believe religion (in all its guises) to be a fraud, why should something I believe to be fundamentally wrong stop me from doing something?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Well start with academcally at school, children are the meanest of beings at times and if something is different about the odd child here and there it leads to bullying, verbal and physical.

6 out of 10 have opposite sex parents
3 out of 10 have a single parent
1 out of 10 has same sex parents

That in itself is a disaster waiting to happen

Financially in the future, the bullied child leaves school because they cannot take the bullying any more, on the streets, mix with the wrong groups, get into alcohol and drugs early and become a lout, etc

In the home
Mummy and Daddy sleep in the same bed, they show certain affections towards each other through the day etc seems normal to me

mummy and mummy sleep in the same bed, they show affections to each other through the day would most likely seem normal to the girl adopted

Also with other social interests that a young girl or boy would be served far better by having a parent of each sex than that of same sex.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

That's bisexuality you're talking about ;) . Still don't know what you're on about though.

Well they might be brought up not to be prejudiced against gay people but their sexuality is not going to be determined by environment.

Could you explain?
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This is just nonsense isn't it? Some heterosexuals commit rape, sexual assault, predatory Friday night WKD fuelled unwanted approaches... and so? Gay people are just as heterosexual people; good, bad, dull, exciting, ugly, pretty. Better dressed maybe ;)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

And did I say all hetrosexualls are squeaky clean, however many gays and their supporters proffess to be as such and really believe it. The evidence of such is in this thread.

As for the bisexual notion, I really do not know where you arrived at that conclusion, I suggest you keep your lurid fantasies to yourself there.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

If that were a reasonable piece of logic then all children who are bullied would end up with your melodramatically foretold future. But they don`t, so I`m not sure that this is a valid argument here.

I`ll agree that there is the potential for this situation to result in bullying, but how much of that bullying is the result of prejudice instilled by the parents? By treating homosexual couples differently you only reinforce prejudices. You are essentially arguing that it is too difficult to confront those prejudices so we may as well reinforce them. If the school took a pro-active and thorough approach to bullying then the issue becomes moot. If you can tackle the problem via two different routes, then surely it is better the tackle the problem of bullying itself rather than the arbitrary differences that "inspire" someone to bully.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

That's a pretty specific scenario you predicted in order to fit your opinion. You proved nothing except that there may be a slight risk that any bullied child may have a chance of becoming an alcoholic drug addicted lout (although you offered no statistics on that).
Many years ago a child would be bullied/teased in school for simply having only one parent or for not being able to run very fast or for wearing glasses or for being black. It still happens but not as much. Attitudes change but sometimes they have to be coerced with the help of laws.

You used the word "normal". That's the crux. You think it is not normal but others do. It is also not normal for a mother and father to beat each other up in front of the kids but it happens. I'd rather a child be adopted into a loving gay parental relationship than a violent abusive hetrosexual one. The former child is more likely to grow up into a respectful person whereas the latter is more likely to be as mean as their abusive parents. This scenario is more likely compared to the doom and gloom one you predict.

You mention "other social interests". What precisely? Basically it comes down the fact that you are misguided, you can't argue seriously on a point by point basis and you are using excuses rather than reasons to support your mere opinion.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

No, you need a sperm and an ovum (at the moment, anyway, it may well be possible for two women to have a child using two X chromosomes, but it wouldn't work for men with two Y chromosomes)

But does your statement mean that anyone who isn't fertile shouldn't be allowed to have children or even adopt them? I don't think so.

So your only objection appears to be that it's those who can't have children because they're a male/ male or female/ female couple shouldn't be allowed to adopt.

Ah, so it's not *YOU* that has a problem, but you don't want *others* to have a problem???

What about if one parent is black and the other is white? How do they explain that to their child?

Why not leave that up to the couple who decides to have or adopt children instead of objecting because, seemingly, you would find it difficult?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I was bullied a lot - I didn't leave school, I stayed on, got A-levels, degree, good job and drugs make me sick. I'll admit to the alcohol, though. I had excellent parental support, of course.

Better two parents comfortable with their sexuality than two at each others throats or one parent harassed and unable to give enough time to their children. The actual sexuality is immaterial to the quality of the parenting.

Spain deserve great credit for this, but of course they have a progressive socialist government that I'm beginning to like the look of. Benedict XVI doesn't like it much, but he's the head of the Church that gave solid support to Franco and I think we'd all agree that gay parents are a bit less threatening than totalitarian fascist dictators.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I'm coming in a bit late on this, but let's pick up some points:

"Relatively disadvantaged"? What exactly does that mean? And what studies?

And what about the children who are "disadvantaged" if their parents aren't wealthy or if one's black and the other white or if one dies when they're young or if the child is disabled or "different looking" etc etc

There's lots of "disadvantages" in life, to try to eliminate them because it's "better for the child" would be nonsensical political correctness of the worst order!
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And whilst we're at it, let's not let the same thing happen to children who have parents of different colours, or those who are disabled or...
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Do you seriously think that this putative child is somehow going to grow up in a box without *any* outside contact? Not meeting any children who have two straight parents? Not watching TV? Not seeing that there's all sorts of different ways in which people behave...???

The behaviour of *every* child's parents, be they straight or gay, will affect the child, but I'd rather them be brought up by a loving gay couple than by the (straight) couple who used to live upstairs from me who used to have regular screaming rows, saying pointless, vicious, hurtful things. How do you think that would have affected *their* child?

IMO if you want to stop anyone getting married, it's people like that!!
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Fine, but there is a big difference between saying "I think everyone should have the right to be free" or "I think everyone should have the right to education" and "I think that those people should *not* be able to express their sexuality because *I* don't like it".

Two are positive, the other is entirely negative.
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So what you are saying is that "everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others"...?

It's ok to be gay, you can even have a "civil union" but you're still *different* to everyone else, because we're not going to let you be married.

Would you say the same thing if marriage was a "whites only" institution?
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Sure they are, just like they ask questions about any/ every other subject under the sun. If you feel you're incapable of answering such questions don't have a child in such a relationship, but don't try to tell others that because *you* can't answer those questions *they* shouldn't have such a relationship.

Oh dear, this is utter nonsense and it's very disappointing that you're repeating this sort of ridiculous "scare story".

Why should someone feel *compelled* to or "confused" enough to engage in a relationship which they have no interest in?

And, more to the point, *even if* you do try such a thing out of curiousity or whatever, it *DOES NOT* mean you are forever condemned to be a "queer" because of it!
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Oh dear, more nonsense.

What is "deviance"? Two men together? A black man and a white woman (or vice versa)? Oral sex? Dressing up in clothes more generally accepted to be appropriate for the opposite sex?

And what is this "promoting" business? You mind your own business and let others mind theirs. Provided nobody gets hurt and everyone is consenting, it's nothing to do with *ANYONE* else.

Can you get consent from the sheep? No? Then stop making stupid comparisons.
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Phew! That's it for gays, then!

Good job no *heterosexual* would ever try anything like that...! :rolleyes:
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In case you hadn't noticed, children can be nasty little b*ds. Some will *always* find something to exploit to make themselves feel better, whether it's someone wearing glasses or being black or being short or whatever.

There is no way to avoid this, the question is simply what you *do* about it.

Trying to eliminate it is the wrong way to go.

Damn, and here's me, got seriously bullied at school, running my own very successful business, having just bought a new house and not drinking or taking drugs or being a lout...

Maybe I just got the wrong sort of bullying...??? :rolleyes:

As I mentioned, the people above me had screaming rows and I'm pretty sure that some times he ended up sleeping on the sofa. I'm sure that's regrettably "normal" for quite a few other families too.

"Oh look, mummy and mummy sleep together, so I should find a girlfriend to sleep with too and ignore those boys I fancy". Yeah, sure.

Prove it.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

<div></div>
You took the word I used "normal" from the context i used and put it as how I think. The context I used it in clearly shows its my opinion on what the child will percieve as normal behavior

While most social interests are unisex theres many social interests that are very predominent in one sex or the other. You really want a full list because you have no clue yourself ?
Further to that men and women are different mentally in many ways. A balanced child can only develop normally mentally if it is reared and recieves a balanced mental attitude from the obvious differences between the 2 sexes.

Now onto the rearing enviroment position yet again.
I really cannot believe that so many people here can categorically state that a reared enviroment would bear absolutely no relevance on how a child develops and really believe it.
Yet the country is and has been for some time suffering increased, binge drinking and yob culture, major drugs problems are rife. All the children that start smoking, why ?? purely because they are curious??? if you really think that then you major in naivety.
The majority of the countries current youth problems are in the main down to following bad Adult and older generation role models including their parents and some is peer pressures from friends to.

Now to the morality of this, we as humans pretend to be civilised, a dog will hump anything thats going, including your leg. Why? because its down to its animal instinct, so is our society to be civilised human beings or is it to become a tribe of animals living on the most basic of instincts.

It is my most sincere opinion that rearing children in a gay enviroment is almost as bad as paedophilia itself, it certainly is not civil behaviour and like someone mentioned its not civil to rear children in a violent enviroment, both amount to abuse in a very gravest of manor.

any country that adopts this law is not moving their country forwards but moving very much closer to a future dark ages.

and just so you know i have absolutely know cult for my religion so no church of any description has instilled this opinion into me.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Again, only if that child is raised in a box with *not* other influences or experiences at all.

I want a full list because I want to see what social you think are purely male or purely female and which are going to have such a dramatic effect on a child's development.

Got any proof of this?

Well I don't think that anyone except you *has* actually said that such an environment "would bear absolutely no relevance on how a child develops".

You set up a straw man, you have then knocked it down. Not impressive.

So what, exactly, does that have to do with gay marriages and adoption?

Why are gay parents going to be more irresponsible than straight ones who allow their children to get into such a situation or who fail to bring them up in a way that means they will avoid such behaviour?

What on *earth* are you talking about? This is not even verging on a coherent argument.

It is my most sincere opinion that you have now *COMPLETELY* lost the plot and the argument if you are going to compare gay parenting to paedophilia!

This smacks of the sort of desperation that in other threads leads to a Godwin.

This is utter prejudiced balderdash and I challenge you to provide *ANY* proof to back this ludicrous claim up.

Oh gods, here we go again! Somehow allowing gay marriages will cause society to collapse into barbarism!

It's strange, because similar things were claimed by bigots for allowing women to be educated, to vote, to allow blacks education or voting rights and many many more besides.

Yet, somehow, we've managed to weather those and still survive, just as we will survive gay marriages.

Now if you want to argue this further, please come up with something a *little* more credible.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

did I say "purely" i belive not, but thats nothing unusual for you Graham to take words and then change them to suit yourself, its not the first time youve done this as several others will agree. The word I used was predominent
Now I suggest you take a visit to the nail bar and get those nice long pink finger nails re done they are looking tattered. Then you can pop along to Gala bingo with your cronies.
Mean while Im of to the snooker club gonna get myself a game or two and then Ill go play some poker.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Semantics - you need a man and a woman.

Of course not - a child's upbringing should be kept as close to natural as possible.

As above

As above.

If we left it up to the couple to make the decision we'd have a lot of unhappy children, that's why we have agencies to assess the suitablilty of potentional adopters first.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Poke who?

Game, set and match to Graham, I think. Ball duly picked up and taken home. Ball gags, however, left in control of the field.

Thought occurs - is it a measure of how civilised a society is that it allows *more* scope for its citizens 'to become a tribe of animals living on the most basic of instincts'? After all, without basic instincts there wouldn't be very many humans (nor as much fun).

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

As an additional thought all beit on the wild side of probability,
After the Spannish Madrid bomings by Al Qaeda, Spain voted in an opposition party at their next election which was rumoured to have certain Al Qaeda ties. I dont know how true that was but if so then the thread title here maybe more significant than anyone has thought.
What better way than to throw a spanner in the new popes works in his first week, and present him with perhaps even a possible catholic split from Spain itself.
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Hello self appointed upmpire

ummm well my basic instinct if some bloke makes any sexual advances towards me as they so often fail to understand 2 simple letters or 2 simple words, is to teach them a damn hard lesson, in the past I have refrained from such action and suffered as a conseqence, but you wont mind me taking to my basic instinct if the need arises in the future ?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

The only issue that would worry me for children adopted by gay couples would be the way in which it was percieved by society and the classmates of the child.It's just one more issue for a child to be bullied about.With such polarised attitudes as shown in this thread this could have quite a significant impression on a child.However it's not a reason not to try...provided care and thought are used by all parties.. :erm:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Rumoured by whom, and are they safely in a padded cell? The PSOE (Spanish Socialist Party) is a left-wing bunch who came to power after the ruling right wingers (who'd backed Bush over Iraq against the opposition of about 97% of the Spanish people) initially blamed ETA for the Madrid train bombings - it's likely that if the blame hadn't been apportioned wrongly the right wingers would have got in (it was very close up till then).

It's unlikely that al-Qaeda, which stands for extreme religious conservatism and the elimination of democracy, would be associated with a secular democratic progressive left-wing party committed to rolling back the power of religion in Spain. As in as unlikely as Elvis being found on Mars.

Oh, and back to the thread - did NitroNutter intend it imply that he spend the evening in a club with lots of sweaty men with hard poles and Graham spend it with a gaggle of mildly intoxicated ladies in an excited condition? I'll take the bingo anyday, red blooded male that I am.*

*mind you, I'm crap at snooker

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Have you been drinking?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I believe it is customary to take refreshment at around this time on a Friday evening. Anyone is welcome to join me, there's beer in the fridge.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I think I'll pass.....

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I've been out the pub.......... has there been a hint of homophobia while I've been away?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

you get one of these cheeky... ;)

http://incognitas.i-webhosted.co.uk/red-rag.jpg

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

well there several politicians that could do with visiting there for a while, especially some spannsh ones

So am I, biggest break ever of 25 I think but then I came from a seriously violent broken home, and with no father figure around to teach me in my early teens Im bound to be crap at snooker, I opted for the easy alternative pool.
Additional thought, the last thing I would have wished at that time in my life was to get removed from my home and then placed in a home with parents in a gay relationship, I really think if that had happened Id have been sent completely over the edge.
Still fortunatly for you all I opted to stick around the violence when social services visited so you have the real benefit of my posting here :D

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

My mistake. Tsk, that Guinness ;)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Sounds like my other half. She can beat me hands down at pool, though. Incidentally, when she was finding her feet in London a few years ago she was helped by a wonderful lesbian couple.

?

Quite agree about the politicians and padded cells - let's have a list of candidates for the white waistcoat with the optional long sleeves. I nominate:

Robert Kilroy-Silk
Vladimir Putin
Donald Rumsfeld
David Blunkett

Any more for any more?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

How about turning westminster into one big assylum

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

No thanks. Enough waffle about asylum round that way already.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

But isnt the catholic church (wich this thread has more to do with) responsible for trying to maintain these things?
Dont think that really counters anything you have said but I found it relevant :)

In the same way a single parent family could.

Yes because being gay is really a bad and evil thing isnt it? You might not like it but that doesnt mean its bad. I personally find it disgusting that a person who knows they are gay could live either a loneley single life or an unhappy straight life because of how thier straight parents brought them up to believe that being gay is abnormal or evil.
How dare those straight parents give that gay child an enhanced curiosity towards straight sex (im not being serious here, but your point makes about as much sense to me).

Only as much as a child with hetro parents could be asking why they might not be attracted to people of the opposite sex.
And whats the harm in trying anyway? If they like it then good for them, if they dont then they are free to move on and try the hetro way, just because they where raised by gays doesnt mean its "the Gay way or the highway" to coin a phrase.

:dozey: :rolleyes:

Pitty nobody else is :rolleyes:

Thats correct, just like there are gay people who may find a person of the opposite sex attractive but still not enough to act on it.

I was going to pick this appart but I see people have allready done a better job than I could have, I just left this in to register the fact that I couldnt dissagree with you more.

Do you really think all gays are like the one from little brittain or that annoying little bald thing from big brother last year?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

To put this into another light so you may better understand

You allready are aware I was in a highly volotile hetro household , this was till about age 9. My old man did return for a very short time but then it was worse than ever before so his second stay was not for long a few months or so.

Now the extent of the birds and bees instilled into me by my parents was as much as this so you cannot say hetro was forced down my throat
My father said just before he left the last time
"one day you may meet a girl you wish to have some privacy with"
This was well before and sex edu at school so I really still did not have a clue.

To cut it short I was soon in a childrens home

Now lets say gay fostering and adoption was permitted then legally, Gay fostering actually has gone on for some time but the gay is usually alone and has his/her sexuallity well hidden.

Today as an adult where I have the choice rather than be adopted by any gay family, a gas chamber sounds good, or the electric chair, life on the streets, (somewhere i have also been), back to a home or even borstal would be more appealing.

So how do you feel knowing that in the future some children with no choice may be forced into a gay adoption scheme and when he/she reached adult hood feels as I would now if had been done to me. I would rather have my mother and father together 5 fold of each of them with 5 fold of the violence than have been put in the situation that is being suggested for spannish orphans, and I can only just bear to have either my mother or father visit me because neither of them will dare to ever cross me again, and if they both happen upon my house at the same time, well they do behave impecably, altho somewhat quiet with each other, I wonder why ;)

I would not trust my father alone with my children and I really dont like my mother with them that often either. But I would put my kids in the trust of either of my parents than ever wish upon them to get adopted by any gay family.

So you politically correct do gooders enjoy what you may be supporting as a campaign in the future, you will most likely be causing as much serious misery as any good that could come of it

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Well then the question has to be, where does this hatred of gays come from? Are you just biggoted against them or is there actually a reason to dislike them?
And gay fostering has gone on for some time you are correct, but sexuality isnt so much kept a secret, its just something not relevant to the adoption process and certainly something you dont discuss with the child.
The part Gays are campaigning for is the right to adopt as a couple, something wich for some reason isnt recognised outside of marriage. The reason for this is for times where a partner may die, the partner who dies may be the childs legal guardian and the other may want to maintain the role as parent, unfortunatley in the eyes of the law the living partner would have no more right to than you or I and as such long legal battles are normally faught for custody of a child wich should legally be thiers.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I've a few things to say on this matter

Firstly, why the hell don't we have lesbians in this country that look as good as those two in the pic? Ok they're not fantastic, but they're a damn site better looking than all the lesbians I've met (even laura :drool: )

Secondly, has anyone actually done a large study on the effect of child rearing by same sex couples?
oh dear, maybe I should have rephrased that...

Or, is anyone on this forum the result of being brought up by a same sex couple, or actually have experience of the children of a same sex couple?

If not, then all this talk of it doing them harm, or not doing them harm is simply uneducated guesses.


PS Nitro, had you been adopted by a same sex couple, you probably would have eventually learnt that they were just human, like everyone else.

PPS For those who believe homosexuallity is not natural, why does it occur so much in nature? Many animals do it.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

There are quirks of nature all around us. But it's not nature's intended way as we'd have died out a long time ago if it was. You should know that.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

If someone has a genetic disease causing them to die before puberty are they unnatural?
They cannot reproduce either.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I wouldn't used the word 'unnatural' to describe homosexuality unless you're trying to call it a disease too?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Are you calling homosexuality a quirk of nature?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Well the likelyness of you believing my real life story has about a 50/50 chance of your believing it as real. To express that story in a public forum on the internet in any real detail would, with almost 100% certainty bring about a premature demise of my life and put my wife and 2 children in iminent danger. You really think this is worth the risk ?
To make it more clear, in the case of most people your life is worth to some no more than a deal of crack or herion. Others would get a slightly more privelaged contract from a cheap to hire eu based ex pat who would likely be back in their country before any body was even discovered.
So to put this in the vaguest context as a damge limitation to me and my family,

I started my adult life somewhat earlier than many and I entered that world as a very liberal minded definitive hetro. Meaning I did associate with gay people, a lot of gay people. With what I discovered during my extensive time with such people, some 15-20 years and also including some very well connected gay people who were also business associates, I uncovered a highly corrupt and perverted section of society, the size of this section and the various levels within society that they resided was to put it bluntly huge. After my time there I developed such a sickening to what I was uncovering, aswell as distinct signs of lives were becoming in iminent danger as I was not falling into the line that was expected, that I left it, this had to be a quick exit, a clever exit, in order to stay in the land of the living, and I knew without doubt that I would have to forgo the entire multi million pound business in the process of making my exit, that I had spent a huge time of my life developing. To really elaborate any further than this is way to risky, but this section of society is not just responsible for some mild campaining to change some laws, they have a huge financial prowess behind them with both legal and illegal operations, including a huge part in todays drug culture, amongst many other interests. The section of society is very big in all citys and towns in Britain, and consist of a mix of some very tight knit circles linked with a lot of loose knit circles. It is this mix of tight knit and loose knit circles that in are in similar way to Al Qaeda networks and other such organistaions that make it hugely difficult for it to be legally countered in a really succesful way.

So biggoted opinion, well if you like, I really do not care about your opinion.
Homophobic ? again I really dont give a stuff about your opinion.
Hetrosexuals are no different, to a certain extent that is true, however you may also be very surprised how many married people there are that also live a hidden life. These are by far the ones to watch out for, they will almost certainly be into more than a bit of homosexuality.
Completely paranoid fruitcake, choose to belive what you like. Only I know the full details of what I know from my life.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Yes - but let me elaborate.

Nature's way is for a man and a woman to reproduce. Technology might mean that it may not be required for long, but that isn't the natural way to conceive. Same sex couples cannot reproduce, as we all know. However I'm not doubting they experience love for each other which, again as we all know, is a natural feeling/emotion.

Nature's way as I see it, is for life to continue. With homosexuality, life cannot naturally continue. Homosexual sex is not a natural act however it's based on natural urges, so this is why I call it a quirk of nature, rather than unnatural.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

If you go in for surgery to correct a life threatening condition then by definition your life is not continuining in a natural way. I assuming here an example of a condition that is fatal and could not possibly resolve itself. Would you reject the offer of medical intervention? For yourself? For your family? The argument that life should continue in a "natural" way has been well and truly undermined time and time again, but I don`t see mainstream Christians demanding that hospitals be brought down.

In fact, by defining homosexuality as a "quirk of nature" you are implicitly defining it as an aspect of nature. Given that there is no way that you could define invasive surgery as a "quirk of nature", does that mean that homosexuality is more natural than going in to hospital?
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Can I assume you have no problem with bisexuality as that allows the species to continue in a natural fashion?
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Is it not possible that a child raised in such an environment would not be instilled with such prejudices, thus rendering the question about your frankly irrational statements irrelevant?

I don`t want to debate the background of your upbringing in detail as that is neither necessary nor fair, but I am forced to ask what issues this has left you with. If you are arguing that you would rather be in a violent, heterosexual household as a child rather than a loving, homosexual household then I don think that you have some rather major issues that need to be resolved. Can you honestly say that the violent option is the preferable environment in which to raise a child?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

If you're going to accuse someone of mis-quoting, it's generally a good idea to make sure *you* quote accurately.

The words you actually used were "very predominent" which, whilst not exactly meaning "purely" is certainly closer to it than merely "predominant".

Sorry, I'm not really certain I've seen many mothers taking their young daughters along to nail bars, let alone men taking young boys to snooker clubs and then going to play poker.

Perhaps you grew up in a different family environment??

ADDENDUM - Clearly you did.

But, even so, I don't think many nail bars would turn away a male customer (be they a goth who wants black nails or a "metro-sexual" man who wants to improve his personal grooming) and I don't think many snooker clubs are "men only" these days, it being somewhat illegal I believe.
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Not semantics, genetic engineering.

But however you create the child, you have not proven by any means that a man and a woman are required to bring up a child.

Again with this word "natural".

Unfortunately what "natural" tends to mean in this sort of case is "what I am familiar with" or "what I approve of".

I suggest you look at the prevalence of homosexual (older male, younger male) relationship in societies such as the Ancient Greeks and Spartans.

For them such behaviour was considered entirely "natural". Just because it's not something that happens today (or that you don't like it) doesn't make it less valid.

So, once again, because Russ D doesn't like it, it's "unnatural".

Sorry, how exactly is that *unnatural*? Just because mummy and daddy are different colours??

Of course, but your objections seem to be that because *you* would have trouble *they* shouldn't be allowed to do this.

If a couple, be they straight, gay, mixed race or whatever are capable of bringing up a child in a loving and caring relationship, why should they *not* be allowed to adopt just because someone thinks it's "unnatural" according to their personal beliefs?
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And what if it was a woman? Would you give the bitch a good slapping to "teach her a damn hard lesson"???
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Again, though, I mention children who have mixed race parents or only one parent or who are disabled or just "different".

Children will bully no matter what, the trick is to stop the *bullying* instead of trying to eliminate all possible reasons for someone to be bullied which is utterly impossible.
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I thought it already was...!
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The answer is you can't know that, but it's also not a reason *not* to allow gay adoption.

The people who determine which family a child will be placed with will take into account the child's family background (if any) and all the other details as well before they make a decision, they won't simply pick a name out of the hat.

So you consider a loving gay couple would be a worse choice to look after your children then a potentially violent and abusive straight couple?

I hope you're not inculcating your children with this level of blind prejudice.

This from someone who would prefer violent and abusive people to look after his children.

I pity you.

I certainly pity your children.
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This is a typically fallacious argument because it fails to note that if homosexuality was such a negative "quirk of nature" *it* would have been eliminated from the gene pool a long time ago.

I suggest you look at http://www.answers.com/topic/genetic...al-orientation this article, especially the section about the "gay uncle" theory which argues there's a potential benefit to the uncle since their genes have a better chance of being passed on because they are protecting/ providing for their nephews/ neices instead of competing against them for resources etc.
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Yet you object to gay adoption because you want children to be brought up in a "natural"(!) environment.

I sense a slight contradiction here...!
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I think this comment is the most telling of all.

Fear, uncertainty, doubt... :rolleyes:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

So we're back to the days where Graham's opinion is the only opinion then.

As above.

.

As above. *They* may have considered it natural, but I don't. I'm entitled to my options Graham just as you are. And just as I don't agree with you does not make me wrong.

Now you're getting the hang of it! Yes, if it's my opinion!!

I didn't say that was unnatural.

(sigh) Yes Graham, because...and get this....."it's my opinion".

Graham....I'd swear you're doing this just to wind me up but something tells me you're honestly not.....you show me where I've said they should not be allowed to adopt, please. Oh that's right, you can't - because I didn't say it. I don't agree with it but I'm not trying to change the law or prevent anyone from doing it.

Well yes Graham, you would wouldn't you. Read my posts again, I've never said they should be brought up in a "natural"(!) environment - my views, if you'd bothered to enquire, would be their upbringing should be as "natural as possible". A difference.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

This liberal attitude of sit on the fence and appease all to be complete in political correctness mumbo jumbo is a complete and utter joke.
To continue with the acceptance and enhancing further rights to sexuall deviance, ie demonstrating gay as acceptable in society before the tv watershed is indeed a form of brainwashing, and will lead to a form of genecide, which also just happens to be a "quirk of nature". To explain the term i used genecide for this is mentally being battered into everyones heads "gay is ok" will in the end bring about the almost total destrucion of true hetrosexuallity and while I'm not religous in anyway Im sure it was said by some religous being "go forth and multiply" not "go forth and fill a *****box".
Next we will be accepting that muslims must be permitted to blow themselves up anywhere they like within the westernised world because there sexual devience is to be in the paradise of 'allah' with 40 tasty slappers or how ever many is promised.
Many quirks of nature are unacceptable and you cannot keep bowing down to a minority because they enjoy such a quirk. Eventually we will (if we havent allready done so) cross the line of no return.

Man + man or woman + woman is fine, but keep it away from being continually forced down the throats of those who do not like it and most certainly do not force it upon children.

I do wonder also with Graham if I remember correctly he has a form of adult website wether theres any bias in his opinions as that is his living, or a part of it.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

*Goes off to unsubscribe. :( :rolleyes:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Well, 150 + posts to this thread; it's been entertaining reading about myself, but I hope you won't mind too much if I suggest that none of you heteros has a clue ;)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Just a mildly homophobic comment but I'll let it pass...

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

lol, thats gotta be a windup right?
So now we have the gay mafia brainwashing the populus into a self induced genocide, "my god, we must fight zem on ze beaches!!!"
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What do you mean, none? Infact how can you even say that based on this thread?
The only ones even making statements about what gays 'Are' are the ones who are anti-gay wich accounts for about 50% of us (and even a lot of those havent tried to say what you 'are'), the rest seem to have avoided making sweeping statements about gays alltogether.
So my point being, if we havent got a clue, how can you tell if we havent actually told you what we think?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I was being tongue in cheek; some of you heteros do have a clue.

I was making a sweeping generalisation to put some of the other sweeping generalisations in this thread into relief .....

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

No, we're in the same days where if you're going to make claims about how it's *only* "natural" to bring up a child with a man and a woman as parents, you're going to have to provide some evidence to back that claim up, otherwise it's *you* who is implying that only *your* opinion matters.

As above.

And again, as above. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you need to prove your claims.

(And may I remind you of the logical fallacy of "Burden of Proof" before you demand that I prove my side instead)

Fine, it's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Just don't expect me or anyone else to accept it just because you say so, *BACK IT UP* with something.

Russ, if you want to have a reasonable debate let's have a *DEBATE*!!!

This involves... get this... :rolleyes: someone backing up an opinion with facts...

Graham....I'd swear you're doing this just to wind me up but something tells me you're honestly not.....you show me where I've said they should not be allowed to adopt, please. Oh that's right, you can't - because I didn't say it. I don't agree with it but I'm not trying to change the law or prevent anyone from doing it.[/quote]

Hmm, you didn't? Let me quote your exact words from message #136:

Now, please, explain to me how I am *NOT* supposed to read that as you saying that they should not be allowed to adopt???

And, yes, I *KNOW* this is your *opinion* but that *opinion* will affect, for instance, how you express your vote which, in a small way, may affect how a law is drafted and implemented.

A quibble.

Again I quote your words "a child's upbringing should be kept as close to natural as possible."

Note where you say "as close... as possible". But your definition of "natural" still seems to be "what I agree with", and appears to deny that *anyone else's* opinion(!) of what is "natural" is acceptable.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

:banghead:

I give up.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Fair enough :)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

If you *really* think that is a valid summary of the opinions of those who disagree with you in this thread, then you are the one who is (either deliberately or through ignorance or prejudice) having a joke.

In that case *any* type of education should be referred to as "brainwashing" too. Except that it's not, because people are entitled and should be encouraged to *question* what they are taught instead of being face with blind bigotted dogma which is what you appear to be peddling.

Excuse me? How exactly will someone considering that "gay is ok" bring about the "almost total destrucion of true hetrosexuallity"?

If I convince a Liverpool supporter that someone else supporting Man Utd is ok, does that mean that it will "bring about the almost total destruction of Liverpool support"? Would the Liverpool supporter suddenly switch teams and go and support a rival instead? No, of course not.

So why should someone who has been told that "being gay is ok" suddenly develop an urge to dash over to the other side of the street?

What on earth does this have to do with anything? I'm not religious, what some religious person said does not control my behaviour or beliefs.

Oh dear, more prejudice and nonsense.

Please will you *TRY* to understand the difference between a suicide bomber trying to commit mass murder on innocent victims and *consenting* adults minding their own business and not being told what they can or cannot do by someone who has no interest in participating in that form of behaviour!

More nonsense.

There is a saying (sometimes known as the Wiccan Rede) "An it harm no other, do what thou wilt".

What is means is you mind your business and let other people mind theirs.

If nobody gets hurt you have no *right* to interfere with other people's private lives.

No one is trying to *force* it on anyone!

If you don't want to do it, don't do it.

But don't try to force *your* opinions down the throat of others and tell them that because *you* don't like it, *they* can't do it or even *talk* about it!

You're damn right there's some bias in my opinions!

The "bias" is that I believe that people should keep their noses out of other people's business and don't expect that everyone else should only follow *their* "acceptable" modes of behaviour!

I know people of all races, colours, creeds, political affiliations and sexualities. But what they *all* have in common is that they understand that it is everyone's *RIGHT* to enjoy their lives in whatever way they want *PROVIDED* it doesn't harm or hurt anyone else (at least non-consensually).

I wish you would undestand that too.
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So it seems I was right, you have *no* proof or evidence to back your opinions.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Locally we have a Lesbian couple who want to take an unfertilised egg from one, then IVF and then transplant it into athe other one. As far I I am concerned as long as the child is loved whats the problem!!!!:rolleyes:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

:rolleyes:

Well for a start, they'll need to think up another version of "the birds and the bees"....

Bringing up a child successfully is about a LOT more than making sure the it is loved!!!

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

No one here is talking about forcing Gay ideals down children's throats. Unless the parents are having sex in front of their children (and I don't know *any* parents that would do that), I am not sure parents would force their sexuality down children's throats.

In your earlier post, it sounded like you were talking about what some of my friends know as "The Scene". The Scene is (in some places) IMO bad, but happens regardless of whether children are adopted or not. TBH, any parent that forced their child to go through some of that stuff does not deserve children whatever their sexuality.

BTW, Graham's website sells adult "toys" and leather gear. I don't know the what percentage of his clientelle is Gay, but I suspect Heterosexuals make up a large percentage as well.
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In all fairness, Graham, Russ is entitled to form his own opinion based on whatever he considers evidence (even though you and I may not agree it is evidence). Also, people don't necessarily need evidence to back up opinions (unless they are presented as fact). After all, in my opinion. Red is a nicer colour than Blue, but I cannot prove it.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Some posts ago I hinted that there may have been some homophobia on this thread (and won a much coveted Coggy award for it) . I was told not. Any opinions revised since then?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Don't we? Although a hetero myself, I have enough gay friends to have a fairly good idea of what does on..

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

You wish.

No Graham. What just about all of us realise is no matter what we say, Graham is 'always right'. I don't have to back up why I believe something or why I see something the way I do. Even if I did produce something, you'd still do your best to wriggle your way out of it simply because you don't agree with it.

Well it's like this - I really can't be bothered with you anymore. You cannot be reasoned with and you refuse to see things any way other than your own.

So that is why I did that smilie - I'd rather beat my head against a brick wall that try and get a point through to you.

Ahh, thank you, I'm glad I wasn't being paranoid. Have a greenie.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

See earlier exchange of posts with ZrByte

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Why do they need to think up some story? Why not just explain to the child honestly and truthfully what happened?

Yet heterosexual couples, even those who are completely unsuited to bringing up children in a loving environment (cf the couple who used to live above me) are permitted, indeed *encouraged* to bring children into this world without any restriction whatsoever.

How about everyone who wants to be parents having to undergo as stringent an examination as adoptees (instead of just doing the "practical")? Maybe then we'd have less in the way of anti-social behaviour from children!
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I have no idea what percentage of my clientele is gay, straight or anything in between, neither do I care, as long as they're spending money! :)

Of course he's entitled to form any opinion, just as NitroNutter is.

But if they post them in a public forum they shouldn't be surprised or get upset if someone else wants to challenge those opinions.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Perhaps it's the way you demand a response and the way you take it upon yourself to try and debunk their opinions when they don't feel inclined to produce the level of 'evidence' you fiercely demand.

If you wish to discuss this further, please do so in PM.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Yes, Russ, I wish you'd try to engage in a reasoned debate instead of simply getting on your high horse when someone doesn't want to take your opinion as fact without proof.

Oh dear, Russ, you're getting desperate now.

Firstly, whatever you may claim, I do not, have not and never would claim that I am "always right".

Secondly, no, you don't have to back up anything you say, but if you want to have a reasoned debate, it would be a good idea to demonstrate why you consider your opinion to be valid, rather than just, it appears, insisting that *you* are right and that you don't have to prove it!

Thirdly, "even if you did produce something...", is a nice little cop out since you *haven't* produced anything!!!

ROFLALALALAL! :rofl:

Paging Messer Pott and Kettle-Black once more... :rolleyes:

The other possible corollary is that you *haven't* made a valid point that is worth acknowledging, you've only stated opinions with nothing to back them up.

Of course without any evidence, that's difficult to prove, isn't it?!
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If someone is going to post an opinion in a *PUBLIC FORUM* that I disagree with, I have every right to ask them to back it up with some facts and question the validity of their opinions.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, nobody, however, has the right to insist that their opinions not be challenged!

You posted this in public Russ, I have the right to reply to it in public.

If you wish to take it to PMs, feel free to do so.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I didn't think you would know.. I didn't imagine you stood there at the counter saying "Here are your handcuffs, will you be using them with your boyfriend or your girlfriend?". I was actually trying to make the point you don't necessarily sell to just Homosexuals or Heterosexuals.

Fair enough. That is part of what makes the forum fun.. I did get the impression though that Russ was presenting his opinions, which (as I said earlier) he may or may not be able to back up with evidence.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I'd sell to sheep if they had the money...! ;)

(NO, that's *not* another Welsh joke! :) )

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Minding your own business, now your having a laugh, at your own expense, if they did do that it would hardly exist, one of the points of my argument is just that, they have to approach people in the hopes that they have come accross a *consenting* adult, and simple words like F off im not that way inclined seems to be incomprehensible to many of them and heres the difference again.

Guy approaches woman, woman says f off, guy carries on trying, if he dont get the message woman knees man where it hurts and says understand now ?

Guy approaches guy, guy says get screwed, Im not into that, The Gay keeps on and on failing to comprehend the answer so the straight guy duffs the puff and now he is classed a homophobic gay basher.

Of course theres the alternative outcome to both these scenarios, where the guy doing the come on acheives a forceful unwanted goal.

Now back to the topic of the children being adopted, how are they as parents going to encourage the child to beleive and dream of a life long true love as a hetrosexual type relationship when the parents are really demonstrating either the 2 ugly sisters from cinderella as a way of living or the slipper fitted Dick wittington ?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

That's a nice big brush you are tarring the entire gay community with.

I'm sorry you seem to have had some bad personal experiences, but I really don't think this sort of sweeping generalisation is valid or helpful, nor are implicit accusations of rapist behaviour.

Well I don't recall my parents ever encouraging me to "believe and dream of a life long true love as a heterosexual", but there again, I don't think that most gay adoptive parents would attempt to convince their child that "gay is the *only* way to go" and that they shouldn't have anything to do with those horrible heterosexuals.

Personally I'd be happy if *any* parents brought up their child with the attitude that what other people choose to do with their lives is *their* business and that their child shouldn't be judgemental or prejudiced simply because it doesn't fit in with that child's (or the parent's) personal beliefs.

If more people did that, maybe the world would be a happier place.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

That wasnt the point I was making tho, Im damn sure he does have hetro customers, but that doesnt mean he wont have gay ones either, sex goods is his business and he dont care what sexuallity buys what, its money and thats the point.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Of course I don't, why should I???

But meeting the people I've encountered through the business has helped me develop an attitude that "Live and let live" is by far the best way to get along in the world.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Twice in one thread mate you are getting good at this ;) I said many you make it appear that I mean entire ? I think you need to go read a dictionary as different words mean different things
You failed to grasp the fact that in both the possible outcomes on each the straight being suffered the gay cannot win if the gay is over persistent

So you never had stories read to you as a young child, ones that would conflict with the lifestyle the child is being brought up in if gay adoption went ahead. And you dont in any way consider the child would suffer somemajor confusion issues there too ?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Is there any professional evidence showing that there is or isn't a detrimental effect on a child's upbringing by same sex couples?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

So what is the point? Why did you say "I do wonder also with Graham if I remember correctly he has a form of adult website wether theres any bias in his opinions as that is his living, or a part of it.", unless you were trying to infer his opinions were biased by the fact that he sells to Gay people?

I do technical support for computer users. Some of whom I know for a fact are gay. Does that mean my opinion is biased by this? Of course it doesn't. To me, a user is a user regardless of who they sleep with. I think it's the same for Graham. As long as they pay the money, a customer is a customer regardless of who they sleep with. I really don't see what relevance the fact that Graham deals with some gay customers has to do with a gay couple being suitable candidates for adoption.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I see the attitude of certain members hasn't changed much. Please calm down and refrain from digs at each other, or yet another topic will be closed.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Ah, now here we see the logical fallacy of the False Dilemma turning up once again. You present two options as if they are the *only* possible outcomes, but that's by no means the case.

Also in a previous message I asked what you would do if it was a *woman* that was being overly persistant, but you didn't answer, so let me ask you again, what would you do in that situation??

You mean stories that traditionally end "and they got married and lived happily ever after"? (Which, BTW, is the probably one of the biggest and most long running lies ever told to children!!)

But what of it? Are those "major confusion issues" that you appear to be so concerned about *really* going to warp a child's development, let alone their sexual development? I don't think so.

And there's books out there like "Heather has two mommies" which are designed to teach children that other forms of emotional attachment are just as "natural" as heterosexuality. What they *don't* try to do is to convince the child that it's the *only* way.

When children ask questions, just tell them the truth. It tends to work.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Considering we're talking about 2005 rather than when Graham was a child (just turned 40, I believe), it's worth examining what a child growing up now would be having read to them. I have a child, and a few books for him. Call it politically correct do-gooding if you like, but I don't think any of them portray married couples as the only way to live, or indeed humans at all. They're mostly about bears and trains and fire engines, IIRC. No doubt this is evidence of the decline in morality as he'll grow up thinking that normality is a bear driving a fire engine.

Thinking about it, anyone growing up now will read Harry Potter, about an orphan growing up in a highly abusive family environment. Would that cause 'confusion issues', whatever that means? I read enormous amounts of Arthur Ransome's Swallows and Amazons, two of the main characters* of which are brought up by a single parent mother, after their father died. So I read books that 'conflict with the lifestyle the child is being brought up in', and it doesn't appear to have left me with any problems.

Children are capable of coping with an enormous amount more than people credit them with - they are after all humans, with human intelligence - what they lack is experience. They aren't going to get it by being insulated from the real world, and they certainly aren't going to get it if you pretend to them that the world exists in agreement with your prejudices**. That's the recipe for a nasty shock later.

*Nancy and Peggy Blackett

** My grandmother, a highly God-fearing Catholic, once tried to stop me reading about Tchaikovsky, presumably thinking reading about homosexuals makes you gay.
[edit for spelling]

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I saw Star Wars for the first time when I was four years old. When I came out of the cinema I was confused why we didn`t have droids, landspeeders and blaster pistols. It entirely conflicted with the lifestyle I was being brought up in. How are parents supposed to explain that to their children? Ban this fantasy SF filth now I say, think of the children. :rolleyes:
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Maybe it's not a problem for them. Perhaps they aren`t bigots with totally closed minds. Perhaps explaining a tricky issue to their children doesn`t challenge the intellectually. Perhaps they are big enough to consider that education of children shouldn`t be underpinned with prejudice. You've already suggested violence as a solution to problems in earlier comments, have you considered thinking over fighting?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

The morality and legal system of this country is still, even after decades of secularisation, overwhelmingly Christian. You simply can't postulate whether children would still be working up chimneys today if it weren't for Christians because to do so would require you to illustrate an alternative history for our country that would be hugely different to the one we have. Nevertheless, that's a bit of a side issue. Whether or not someone, somewhere would have taken up the cause is irrelevant. These great social challenges were taken up by committed Christians and there is nothing anyone can do to dissemble on that fact.

Forgive me, but I find your distinction between my beliefs (from 'on high' or 'out of a book') and yours ('genuine concerns') to be entirely artificial and not a little patronizing. When you accord your own moral viewpoint a greater validity than mine, simply because you hold the origin of that viewpoint in higher regard than you do the origin of mine, are you not simply doing exactly what you accuse Christians of doing?

I know you're not deliberately setting out to exclude one group from political expression but I still say that inadvertantly that is exactly what you are pushing for. Everybody has a worldview. For some, that view is predicated on a belief in a deity and a sense of responsibility towards that deity. For others, their view arises out of the conviction that there is no higher authority. You have expressly stated that you believe morality derived from a belief in higher authority is not valid, or at least less valid, than morality that is derived in the absence of any regard for higher authority. The result is that you ascribe yourself the right to campaign for society to be structured in a way that best suits you, while seeking to deny others that same right simply because you disagree with the basis of their belief. That, whether you mean it to be or not, is a pretty good definition of intolerance.

Let me turn that on its head. I believe passionately that this universe has a divine creator God to whom we are all morally responsible and I believe that those who reject religion to be in denial. Why should something (namely, an atheistic worldview) I believe to be fundamentally wrong, stop me from doing something?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

There seems to be a divide here between those who feel homosexuality is normal and natural and those that don't. The very fact that there is a "gay community" shows an element of ghettoisation. If there was a hetro-community then they would be accused of homophobia....so are the gay community heterophobic? You don't hear that word much do you? Surely if homosexuals are trying to promote themselves as natural and normal and wish acceptance then a "gay community" will not help in this. Sure, I understand it's about solidarity and support etc but....

Also no matter what one feels about whether gay marriages/child upbringing is harmful or harmless; the fact is we don't know! Society has had thousands of years of experience of bringing up children in a heterosexual environment but very little experience of homosexual environments. Of course I am not saying that all heterosexual environments will produce balanced, healthly children as there is a lot more to bringing up children than their parents sexual orientation.

Another thought is that there is evidence (although I won't attempt to search for it as I am at work) that children who have been sexually abused are more inclined to be gay. Surely this is influence?

Devience by the way is "Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society." according to the dictionary. So that would place homosexuality in that catagory.

However as I have said before. I do not persecute gays. I support them as people but not their actions.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Yes, of course, because they have been *forced* into that by the prejudices of the "heterosexual community" in the past.

But whilst they're still faced with the attitudes that some people have that what they're doing is "unnatural" or "a sin" or "deviant" or "not normal" it's a bit different.

Yes, there are courageous people who have stood up and created organisation like Gay Pride and promoted themselves as natural and normal, but not everybody can or would do that because of lingering prejudices.

No, of course we don't know for certain, but that ignorance is not a valid reason to *deny* gay couples the right to adopt any more than a couple being of mixed races was not a valid reason either.

But the people most likely to abuse a child are very often their own "heterosexual" biological parents! Not the most useful argument in this discussion :)

Yes, that is a precise dictionary definition of the word, however to use it solely in that manner is to ignore the underlying implications that go along with it when it's used by some people.

Pardon me if I think that sounds somewhat hypocritical as you seem to be saying one thing and doing another.

All the majority of gays want is for others to mind their own business and let them live their lives in their own ways. If we deny them that right or deny information to those who want to know more about their sexuality and feelings, we're end up with that "ghettoisation" you mentioned at the top of this post.