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If I have to produce my ID card? Note this is different to showing my driving licence, which illustrates my right to drive, not to exist.

[/QUOTE]And democracy involves adhering to laws as brought in by an elected Government, or am I wrong there? Perhaps you should be calling yourself "smug anarchist"...? ;)[/QUOTE]

And this is an anti-democratic measure (have a proper read of Graham's informed posts).

Opposing the erosion of civil rights is hardly being an anarchist.

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Sorry, what's that got to do with the hackability of the system? :confused:

Re: ID card Bill dropped
 

And democracy involves adhering to laws as brought in by an elected Government, or am I wrong there? Perhaps you should be calling yourself "smug anarchist"...? ;)[/QUOTE]

And this is an anti-democratic measure (have a proper read of Graham's informed posts).

Opposing the erosion of civil rights is hardly being an anarchist.[/QUOTE]

So presumably, if the police ask you to produce a driving licence you object, on the grounds that a) they could check the records without seeing the licence, and b) the licence per se doesn't entitle you to drive, it merely shows you have passed a test which allows you to drive?

Unfortunately, anything that an elected government brings in must be deemed democratic. They are voted in, they act on behalf of the electorate. Someone mentioned, on another thread, that the way to challenge a law is to vote out the government.

I still don't understand your stance on opposing certain laws though.

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We live in a world of estimates. Businesses live daily by estimates. What you do is you take a sample and extrapolate. Now detecting fraud is more difficult but by using such statistical models (which take intoi account a level of undetected fraud) you can gauge not exact numbers, but an idea of scale with which to work with.

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All sounds pretty similar to current laws for other goverment documents

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Businesses work with estimates, but report facts. Big difference.

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And just as the goverment under estimates/reports waiting lists, crime, unemployment, it's also likely to under estimate fraud to hide it's incompetence at preventing it.
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Driving licence illustrates your identity, checking on the current databases confirms your right to drive, ownership of vehicle, confirmation of details given to requesting officer etc.

Just holding a driving licence does not mean you have the right to drive.

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No, I have no objections (unless I'm being harassed - stopped countless times as some have) because the licence that I am in possession of demonstrates I am legally entitled to drive (subject to MOT, insurance which I might then be asked to produce). It is not a document that proves my right to exist.

A democratically elected government can then introduce anti-democratic measures. If the Govt tried to bring in detention without trial that would be anti-democratic. Oh, hang on... Our form of democracy is significantly failing us too because of unequal access to power and the means of mass communication. In a democracy, all rights are supposed to be equal, but I digress (as usual) So Mugabe's laughing then?

Never mind

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And why is an ID card a document that proves your right to exist???

South Africans and Israeli's don't get killed simply for not having their ID card!

And again, your driving licence does not give you the right to drive, it enables goverment workers to reference a database which tells them that you are the person that the database states has the right to drive.

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Eh?!
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See post #97. Oh you have.

That wasn't the point I was making. Having to produce an ID card is to have to prove your right to exist

And? It doesn't, I repeat, relate to me having to prove my right to exist, just to prove my entitlement by law to drive.

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For the moment, yes, sadly.

Look, this is drifting off-topic. If the ID card system comes in, and you fight it, you may end up in prison... all for refusing to accept the law that a democratically elected government may bring in. Is it worth it? That's up to you, but whilst I don't agree with every law in this country, I stick to them because either I can see some benefits to others, or the population as a whole, or because it's the law and I don't snap my crayons because I can't have everything my own way.

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Relating to the laws governing several goverment documents you may have, although normally they aren't enforced. Hmm, not currently often enforced, so why think the police will do in the future?
Not applied for a replacement driving licence after losing it?
Well, make sure you do it with 7 days and there's no bother ok?
Not applied for a replacement ID card after losing it? Well, make sure you do it with 7 days and there's no bother ok?
See the similarities?

Really? Most people think it's a card which helps prove your identity, not your existance.
Just standing there talking to them should prove your existance :D

Andyl you've succeeded in totally puzzling me with that bit! Can you please explain it better?

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But I'm sure I heard the Crayola's going on the speed cameras thread ;) and this is a far, far more important matter. Sometimes you have to fight for principles (look it up on dictionary.com :) )

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I carry round a small, foldable Cartesian Dualist in my pocket, in case I'm ever asked to prove my existence.

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Using the speed camera issue as an analogy, it would be like us saying they should all be removed or never introduced in the first place because they may be misused (apparently your agument against ID cards, roughly)
Where as in fact we support speed cameras but used properly.
Just as with ID cards, if implimented properly and cost effectivly we have no problems for we can see the benifits

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And what of iris scans, fingerprinting (no doubt DNA next)


It's about keeping track of people. Go one step forward - we have iris scanijng. Scanners could be put in all kinds of places. Add to that existing technolgu (the new speed cameras that track licence plates over distance, CCTV etc) and we will have no privacy and a system open to wholesale abuse.

Probably not ;) not least cos I can't see from your quote in my reply box what you were referring to. I may add an edit!
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Well leaving for one side the whole speed camera debate (don't want to go there again!), there is a huge difference in that ID cards impact on civil rights (speed cameras don't - possible exception being the newies which track you over distance) and the potential to misuse the system for political or other ends is enormous (wheras the nearest you can get to that with speed cameras is to suggest, as I'm sure you do, that they're just a revenue raising exercise. Even if you accept that argument, the parallel with ID cards in terms of civil rights is flimsy).
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:D I had to look that up.... but I like it!


EDIT: My own civil rights are being invaded now by this evil thing called work. Gonna have to sign off for a while. Catch ya later all. :)

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Ok DNA requires blood or tissue sampling, there is an inheirant health risk in security devices which use these, also there's the time it takes to actually get a result from the dna sample and to check it against one on record, plus all the cost of the technology to package it into something that can be used in an airport for instance, therefore it's a non-starter.

However, having it on record has it's advantages when trying to solve crime. Remember a guy on the m3 who died from a rock being thrown through his lorry window? the offender was found because a relative gave dna in a police campain.

Iris scans from a distance? Someone's been watching minority report ;)
Current iris scans can't even cope with certain ethnic irisus point blank, let alone at distance! Such a device would have to be able to track your face, locate your eyes, hope you aren't wearing glasses or sunglasses, or contact lenses, or a large hat (so useless against most chavs!), and zoom in close enough to see the minute details of your iris. And as with fingerprints, its markers that are used not an exact match, so they can see if you MAY have been in an area, not that you are!
Reading a number plate is far easier, not hard to write code that can select black text from a white background, especially when legally number plates are supposed to be a set font etc, totally different to iris recognition.
Oh and it fails quite a lot of the time, so the images have to be checked manually to read the plates.

Finger printing, well for identity they match markers, for it to be considered presentable to court as the only evidence there has to be something like 11 although I think it varies in scotland.
Your fingerprint is unique, true. Resultant analysis of your fingerprint is not unique.
I can give a forensic scientist two fingerprints from different people, and he could conclude they are from the same person simply because of the markers.

Therefore, you can walk around a shopping centre touching everything you liked, have all the fingerprints lifted and analysed, and the number of resulting finds in the database would be astronomical!
Now if you broke into someone's house, nicked their VCR and were caught down the road, then having your fingerprints on record wouldn't really help because they've got you to fingerprint!

Now where biometrics do help is in confirming that the person using the card is the person that the card belongs to.
It works like a password but a password that no one else can have unless they chop off your hand or suck out your eye.

It's ok andy, I'm sending the men round with the paranoia pills :disturbd:

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In which case I see little point in continuing to try to hold a reasonable discussion with you on this.

Re: ID card Bill dropped
 

Xaccers - missed Minority Report actually (only get to see films of the Spongebob variety generally due to the ankle biters). I'm sure you can see where I'm going though - iris recognition technology, for example, will move apace.

Paranoid? Moi? Well I have been illegally arrested and detained by the Police so I guess they are (or at least were) out to get me!

Right, enough of this, I am now officially only 20 minutes away from my first Friday night Guinness! Cheers!

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It is about the *security* of the system and the vulnerability of the data held on it and the potential for abuse.

Think about how many governmental organisations are going to have access to this data. Do you think all the people who work for them are going to be scrupulously honest?

Many years ago I had a six wee temp job working for the Inland Revenue doing "revenue returns" (ie recording who had sent their tax return back).

Within a couple of *hours* of working there I had "shoulder surfed" the section supervisor's password and managed to log into his account where I could look at *anyone's* tax records, make changes or even *delete* someone's records entirely.

Of course I didn't do any of that, but had I been minded to and had connections in the criminal fraternities, it would not have been difficult.

Now consider if I'd been working for a department that had access to ID card record details...!
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I really don't think that's at all the case and even if it were, most of those you are not *required* to have!
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I think a lot of people considered it worth it when the Poll Tax was introduced.

So you're saying that there are *no* laws that could be introduced about which you would say "hang on, that's going too far!" because there are "some benefits to others"?

Me283, *why* do you persist in this sort of behaviour? It doesn't give your points any more credibility or validity and is as childish as what you appear to be saying you *don't* do!
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What are the penalties for failing to replace a driving licence after losing it?

What are the proposed penalties for failing to replace an ID card after losing it?

See the differences???

Most people are incredibly naiive about the nature of ID cards.

As I have mentioned many a time before in ID card threads, in this country you have the RIGHT to "go about your lawful business without let or hinderence" (a "let" means permission in this context) and to simply *be* on a street in the UK.

Being required to have an ID card means you need *permission* to do something that was, previously, a legal right, you now have to demonstrate that your existence on that street has been permitted by the government.

Re: ID card Bill dropped
 

Sure, certain laws "could" be introduced that I may not like... but then I shall have to wait and see. And if they are, I have three choices: accept them, try to vote out the Government and hope the laws are changed, or live in another country. That's the reality.

And to clarify your last point, being required to carry an ID card suggests that you need to be able to prove who you are, should the need arise; I fail to see how it implies that you need permission to stand on the street?

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*HONK* Sorry, but wrong (oh, and once again we see the logical fallacy of the "False Dilemma")

There is a *fourth* choice. You and lots of other people contact your MP and express your disagreement with the proposed laws *BEFORE* they are introduced.

Because it would *not only* require you to prove who you are, but also, by implication mean that if you could *not* prove who you are when required, you do *not* have the right to stand on the street, since you could then be arrested for failing to identify yourself!!

PS if you find my "lengthy posts" so tiresome, why don't you edit out the parts that you aren't replying to?

PPS Oh and for all those who think that the government's plans are a great idea and are going to be a roaring success that will be brought in without any problems, here's a cautionary little story for you...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/08/mi5_it_budget/

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Actually, if you re-read my post a little more carefully, you will see that I used the past tense - laws that have been introduced. That, by implication, infers that it is too late to stop them being introduced. Wrong again *HONK*

But you see, what I didn't realise, and what you have taught me, is that it's all just a big conspiracy... :rolleyes: Let's get real, shall we? There are very few good things this Government has done, and many bad. More often than not you can look into their actions and see that they are doing it more for their own good than for the country's. But the ID card system would be great, not just for the authorities, but for the population as a whole. Sure, there are some that would oppose it, but then they may have reason to... After all, assuming anonymity can (I imagine) be very useful for some people. But then some people eg maybe who work for the Inland Revenue? may feel the need not just to go about their work, but to use other people's password to look into things that don't concern them. Why would they do that?

Re: ID card Bill dropped
 

Ahem. Your exact words were "Sure, certain laws "could" be introduced that I may not like... " That is *not* the past tense.

Certainly. Let's start by asserting the real fact that I never said anything of the sort.

You have *still* yet to demonstrate *ANY* proof of this claim!

Yes, *IF* it was properly introduced and *IF* it worked correctly and *IF* it didn't breach people's basic rights and *IF* it wasn't abused and *IF* it wasn't open to abuse and *IF* it wasn't very probably going to be an expensive white elephant like many other government IT projects and *IF* people would actually agree to it when they knew the full facts behind exactly what this scheme will do *THEN* it *MAY* possibly be "great for the population", but that's not exactly what I would call convincing!

Oh dear, and now we have the tired old rhetoric of "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" trotted out again with the underlying implication that if you *do* object you *must* have something to hide.

This argument hasn't washed the last couple of dozen times people have made it and it *still* won't wash now.

Me283, are you suffering from a stunning lack of imagination here???

Consider if you were a member of the "criminal fraternity" and had access to not only people's IR records, but access to the system that let you examine everyone's ID details. Just *LOOK* at the list of information that the government wants to keep on everyone and think what could be done by someone who is unscrupulous!

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How can it be proven, when it has not happened? Anything written would be supposition. Just like back in the late 1400s when a chap called Columbus decided to sail around the world, even though people thought it was square... how did he "prove" it wasn't? By getting out there and doing it. And you want proof that something "will" be beneficial before it's been introduced? Tough one that. No, what you want is not proof, but you want to be convinced, and it seems to me that your stance is such that you are unconvincable.

Oh well, if and when the scheme is introduced, we shall have to find out then.

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Again I ask, how come other countries with ID card systems with more personal information than the government's plan calls for, don't have this issue?

Also exactly what new information will the database hold that will enable all these abuses which isn't already held by the government?

Another thing, you do not need to carry the ID card to be able to walk down the street, just as you don't need to carry a driving license to drive down the road.
To think otherwise I'm afraid is simply an attempt at scaremongering or paranoia!

With this thread nearly everyone has agreed that the government's proposal and ability to impliment the scheme are a pile of poo.
So there's no point carrying on arguing about it.

Then you are left with those of us who can see the benifits of a well planned and implimented scheme and those who are anti any ID scheme.
So far from the latter I have only heard reasonable arguments against the Labour plan but no strong arguments against properly run schemes.

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You can't, but the point is you want to spend at least five *BILLION* pounds on trying to prove it!

And what happens if, after all that (as seems much more likely) it turns out that it doesn't work and would never be able to do half the things that were promised for it, what would you say?

"Oh, sorry, we've wasted enough money to build a load of new hospitals and police stations and employ a whole lot of more doctors, nurses and police, but, hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time!)

If you're trying to use this as an argument in favour of your position, it would have worked better if you'd actually got your facts right! But there again, it seems that facts don't feature much in your arguments anyway.

Just because I won't take what you (or the government) says without something more to back it up, does *not* mean I am "unconvincable", but if you're going to spend all that money, it's better to do it with reasonable grounds to back it up instead of just "well I think it's a good idea, let's try it and see what happens".
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Which countries? The former Soviet Union? The old Eastern Europe? Communist China?

Have you never heard the expression "don't put all of your eggs in one basket"?

Oh gods, Xaccers, this argument is *OLD* is has been done time and again in these threads and I'm not going to point out the flaws in it *yet* again.

Go and search the old threads where you will find the difference between having a licence to drive (something you *choose* to have) and having a "licence to walk down the street" (something which the government wants to *compel* you to have).

I suggest you try to convince Me283 of that!

Xaccers, the point is that *ANY* scheme introduced *will* be a government scheme and it will *NOT* be a "well planned and implemented scheme". Ye gods, they can't even get the MI5 system right and that's supposed to protect us from terrorism!!!

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Don't get tetchy Graham, or I shall tell the Administrators! Oh no, that's your trick, isn't it. When someone gets something wrong, try pointing it out? As in fact they would to you, if you were ever to get anything wrong. But you don't, silly me, I forgot.

Back on topic, how do you propose it is tested, and at what cost? And can I please have FACTS and FIGURES, not estimates and possibilities?

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Hoe can FACTS and FIGURES be provided? Having a pop at estimates is pointless. Move on.


EDIT: This is an issue primarily of principle... although the cost of this scheme is frightening.

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And that's one thing that bugs me. Even if this system did exactly what it said on the tin: reduced terrorism, identity theft, made life more convienent, and it was implemented properly and under budget... People would still be against it.

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At the end of the day it's about balancing rights with protection. I'm not convinced that this measure will achieve any of what the Government claims... in which case rights (and the prevention of potentially devastating abuse) wins out. and yes I am paranoid!

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Thank you Andy, you have proven my point. Graham wants proof of what I have said, but it can't be given. Facts and figures will be proof. Let's wait and see.
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And I personally don't believe rights will be infringed or compromised.

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I think not. Facts and figures of something that hasn't yet happened. Many, many commentators do not believe this will produce the results claimed and yet we proceed to undermine the basic rights of a free society. I refer you back to the concept of principles and rights. And create a system open to massive abuse and from which greater freedoms can be eroded.
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I do. That's an intractable one.


EDIT: Can you explain the facts and figures Graham has allegedly demand pleased. I'm :confused:

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On the topic of savings, Graham asked for proof of my beliefs that savings will be made. And Facts and figures will be proof of the outcome, whichever way it goes: white elephant or not.

Re: ID card Bill dropped
 

Ok, might be speaking out of turn but I'm guessing Graham would like to understand the base from which you can make such an assertion (there doesn't seem to be much historical evidence for example). I can easily make groundless assertions but it won't add weight to my argument.

And if ID cards are introduced, the facts and figures will soon become meaningless; it'll be a done deal. Once those rights are lost, no government will return them.

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Excuse me? I'm not the one who is proposing it be tested, certainly not by spending at least three billion pounds (that's the *government's* own figures!) of tax payers' money.

It seems we're back at logical fallacies again, this time it's Burden of Proof raising its head once more.

If you (or the government) think that this scheme is a good idea and will work and is value for money it is down to *you* or *them* to prove that this is the case.

So far there has been precious little proof or even valid argument that can demonstrate this.
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Yes, because it would *STILL* breach basic *RIGHTS* that people in this country have fought *WARS* to protect!!
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So again I ask (and you have not yet replied to), what happens if it all goes wrong, it doesn't work and billions of pounds have been wasted?

Would you say "oh well, we thought it was a good idea. Never mind. Sorry. Let's move on"???
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Andyl, you're not speaking out of turn at all. You have completely grasped the principle of my argument.

I hope now that Me283 will understand the point.

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Well, assuming you've done some research into ID cards rather than just reading the anti literature that has been put out in this country, then I'm sure you'll be able to name at least two democracies with ID cards.
Or have you not actually done much research into that?
It's ok, we won't hold it against you.


And again I ask:
Exactly what new information will the database hold that will enable all these abuses which isn't already held by the government?


Or you could explain why something which just helps give evidence to show that the information you are giving is true is some how a "right to exist card" rather than dodging the question.

You appear to be one of the people who needs convincing as per your next statement:

So, how about giving some valid arguments against a well thought out and properly implimented ID card system? Or are you unable to think of any?
After all, does there have to be arguments againt it? Would such an ID scheme work?

While people at home quite happily carried ID cards!
Oh the irony! :rofl:


Again, what rights will be lost?
You currently don't have the right to give false information to goverment officials
You currently don't have the right to refuse to give most of the information the goverment is putting in the database
You currently have the right by your existence to be able to walk down a public right of way, that didn't change during WW2, it ain't changing with this proposal

So far no losses...

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Xaccers, in case you hadn't noticed *NONE* of the democracies that *DO* have ID cards have *ANYTHING* like the scheme that this government wants to implement, so your implied argument has no validity.

But don't worry, we won't hold it against you... :rolleyes:

The point is that there is no *ONE* number that will give someone access to *ALL* that information in one single "transaction".

In the USA if you can get hold of someone's Social Security Number it is possible to gain access to a huge swathe of details about their dealings which actually makes ID theft in America *easier*!!!

Well on the subject of dodging, that *wasn't* the question you originally asked that generated that response, but never mind.

But as to your subsequent question (which has, again, been answered in previous threads) imagine you're a member of an ethnic minority who happens to be walking down the street in a "rich white area", or maybe you're parking a van near an airport with a few friends.

Mr Institutionally Racist Policeman (yes, there *are* some, see the Macpherson report) comes up and thinks "hello, hello, hello, they look suspiciously black/ Muslim, Who are you? What are you doing? Let's see some ID sonny. Oh dear, no ID, you can't prove your answers are true, you're going to have to come down to the Police Station until we can demonstrate that you have the right to be here".

You're damn right I need convincing that spending at least three billion pounds on a scheme like this is going to be worthwhile!!

Anyone who doesn't is being incredibly naiive.

What on *EARTH* is the point of discussing hypothetical situations when there is *ALREADY* a plan on the table which the government wants to force through and impose on us whether we like it or not???

Irony indeed, Xaccers, but not quite for the reasons you think!

In case you hadn't noticed there *ISN'T* a war on at the moment, *DESPITE* what the government may claim!!

Remember that the last ID card scheme that this country had was discontinued after a Judge ruled that there was *NO NEED* to have such a system in place now that the war was over!!

So why should we, once again, be happy to carry ID cards??

Are you actually *READING* what I am writing, Xaccers?

How many times do I have to repeat "THE RIGHT TO GO ABOUT YOUR LAWFUL BUSINESS WITHOUT LET OR HINDERENCE"???

What about "PRESUMED INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY"?

Straw man. I never said anything about this.

Another straw man.

Wrong, as I mentioned above. And before you say "it won't happen, they won't be allowed to do that" I suggest, as, once again, I have mentioned many a time in previous threads, you look at the situation in France where Police aren't allowed to stop minorities (mostly Algerians) just to check their ID, yet, somehow they *still* do this.

Or, at least, none that you're willing to acknowledge which is an entirely different matter.

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Andy, much as it pains me to feel like I'm taking a stance anywhere near yours ;) , I am going to unsubscribe as I feel this has run it's course. My feeling is that Graham has no wish to concede any of my points, and that's fine, it's his perogative. I feel that tangible benefits may be gained by the scheme, but of course they are unquantifiable at this stage; and when someone challenges me to "prove" what I am believing, it's a little tough. Historical evidence is hard to find when there is no history; and while Xaccers seems to be more than holding his own here, I can't see my comments adding much weight.

Anyway, here's to the future, and cheers for the "sparring"!

PS for the record, I notice differing figures being bandied about ie £3billi on and £5.5bil lion. Not really interested in challenging it, just pointing it out.

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me283, i think the issue arose cos you expressed an opinion as an assertion (from memory)

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I think I'm going to follow me283 on this one as once again it is very difficult to have an intellectual conversation when participants resort to the textual version of holding their hands up and saying "whatever" rather than explain their arguments.
Anyway andyl, thanks for you input if a little paranoid (of course they really are out to get you) :D

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Off-topic... did you hear about the paranoid man with low self-esteem? He though nobody important was out to get him...

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Bugger, you know they're after me too. Sh*t.


I have to say though that I, agree with them or not, Graham's posts have been well thought through and evidenced. He's quite an adversary (so glad he's on my side, or thereabouts ;) ).
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Now, that is funny!

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Let's agree on the second point (am I smug now?!)

The first point, lt's agree to disagree ;)

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;) Hey I don't think i'm smiug (that jist what someone else called me!) But I must admit I do get tired of being right all the time (guess you have the opposite problem so I can sympathise )

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And my feeling is that you have demonstrated no points *worth* conceding and this is just one last desperate attempt on your part to salvage some dignity.

Yes, it is tough. If you want to spend billions of public money you're going to have to expect people to ask tough questions about whether it's worth it rather than hope they'll just take your word for it!!

Three billion is what the government claim. Given the inabilty of virtually *any* government project *ever* to come in on time or under budget (let alone working!), is it any wonder that other people are pointing out that it's virtually guaranteed to cost a hell of a lot more?
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Xaccers, if you want to have an "intellectual conversation" it's a good idea to actually bother to *READ* what people have written instead of trying to dismiss it with this sort of petty comment.

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The opposite problem? Well I suppose you are right, I DON'T get tired of being right all the time ;)

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IIRC that was the original official figure - scope creep and the fact that it was obviously unrealistic mean it's gone up to 5.5. Will it stop there? Nope.

Is everyone taking their ball home? I've just been let out after tea by my mum* and was looking forward to a kickabout.

*Metaphorically.