Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I'm frankly disguisted at the opinions in this thread. Perhaps if the young people werenm't exposed to as much violence they would realise that it wasn't the only way to deal with situations?

When can voilence toward children and young people be justified? When they desreve it? Who on earth are you to decide that they do?

When is it approporiate to hit children? In a cold, calculated fasion, or to lose it and beat your child when they don't follow your will?

Frankly I think the wrong people are being demanded to be locked up.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Regardless of what she did, if anyone, EVER laid so much as a finger on my daughter they'd find themselves in a world of trouble.

Physical discipline is for the parents only.

IMO we don't want a justice system that people fear. We don't want punishments that deter people. What we need is to educate individuals on why certain behaviour is wrong. I refuse to believe that anyone is inherantly evil. They have picked it up from somewhere and the bad seed was planted.

Paedophiles for instance. If they were educated/supported/taught to supress their urges and not act on them, I'm sure things would be different. At the moment they live under the mistaken belief that they won't get caught, as do most criminals. By this point the object has been defeated.

Educate the people. Prevention is better than cure.

Current methods have failed. I'm not saying I have the magic solution but anything would be better than the vigilante mentality.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Kids have to be taught right from wrong.

It doesn't necessarily have to involve a smack (but on occaision it may be appropriate.

The problem is kids, in the main, learn from their parents. If the parents are lazy dole scroungers that think the world owes them a favour - then there's a good chance their kids will be to.

Discipline should be installed from an early age, and it is hard work.

I remember watching an episode of "wife swap" and the dead beat mother that had 5 unruly kids said "I don't think kids should be told what to do, they're only young and should be allowed to do what they like" as her kids were running riot around the house.

That is lazy parenting, she doesn't want to discipline not because of some "new age" thinking but because she can't be arsed to get her fat behind off the couch from in front of the TV and interact with her kids and teach then how to behave.

And that is now an all too familier scenario

I

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

The flaw in that argument is with the evidence.
If exposure to violence bred violence, then society would be getting less violent not more.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

:clap: :clap: Well said that man. Anyone who thinks the way to deal with unruly children is to assault them - and be proud of it - is not worthy to take part in a debate in which reasoned and intellectual responses are required.

People take great pride in dismissing me (and others) as liberals, having a pop at the 'PC brigade' (whomever they may be) and writing off arguments, however well supported they may be by factual evidence, as kow-towing to "human rights" (which must be put in inverted commas as such a concept is so obviously ridiculous). Well, frankly I'm not ashamed to be a liberal, to be intelligent enough to look beyond tabloid headlines and seek out the wider picture. I'd be very, very ashamed to admit that I took pride in beating a child though, especially if I thought I was actually teaching that child how to behave.
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:tu: :tu: Well said, for the same reasons I applaud Sean.

Remember too people that kids do not get to choose their parents, the people who give them moral guidance. Giving them a slap, as some are advocating, is hardly going to assist that moral education.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Um, russ said that physical discipline is for the parents to perform, not that it should not be done.

It seems to me that those of us who believe physical discipline is valid are able to discern between giving a child a slap and beating a child, whereas those who are against physical discipline are unable to discern the difference.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I'm not against (limited) physical punishment, my point being it should be for the parents only. If a teacher, policeman, security guard, social worker, clueless vigilante etc lays a finger on my daughter, I want them fully prosecuted for ABH or GBH.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Having read through this thread I was compelled to comment, due to some of the ridiculous ideas put about.

Kids today aren't that different from kids 40 years ago, but the world around them has changed beyond recognition - so at least some of the differences must be due to the world around them.

After their earliest years, this world is no longer just their parent's responsibility, yet some would still blame the parents for everything.

I don't believe many parents set out to be uncaring or bad, but at the same time, for all the education that some think will solve every problem, I don't recall there being much education on parenting in schools/colleges/universities. So parenting is the ultimate DIY experience, with the highest stakes. No TV reality show to come and fix your mess here - in fact, very little help to fix up the mess. Just criticism.

And to make it worse, much of this criticism is from people who are not parents! What gives you the right to condemn?

Life today places a much higher burden on parents than what my parents experienced. The expectation of children today is that they should all have a mobile phone, computer, PS2, MP3 player, digital camera etc. This materialism is not of the parents' making - that's what society is doing to the kids.
So parents try to give their kids what they can. And to do this they have to work hard - often both parents. This doesn't mean that kids miss out - I suspect there's fewer latch-key kids today then there were 40 years ago - it's just different.

And once the kids get to the age where a parent might actually dare let them out on their own, what do they find? Few cities/towns offer any space they can use, or what space there is is then generally used to allow dogs to defacate.

What do they do with their time? Well, obviously same sort of things their friends do. And it starts by watching TV and now that's running 24/7 what reason to do anything else? The program makers go out of their way to captivate their audience - mostly so they can throw more materialistic adverts at them - but rarely to offer them some inspiration.

In my youth kids indulged in hobbies, these days a lot of that is not 'cool' or 'geeky'. The most compulsive activity they seem to have today is to play computer games. And they takes these so seriously - when they start claiming how skillful they are because they've scored a goal in FIFA(whatever) on a PS2, you have to wonder what their value system has become, or where that came from.

So don't just turn on the parents as an easy target. Society at large has a responsibility to bear.

I would also like to add, that next time you see that child behaving atrociously in Tesco's, that rather than tut-tut and condemn the parent, spare a thought - some of us have children with special needs and that's juts the way they are. We do the best we can (again, usually with very little help) and much as it might annoy you, it's pushing us close to breakdown.

So a little understanding for what we have to face, and a little less readiness to give our kids 'what they deserve' wouldn't go amiss.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

How can you be sure of that Xaccers? A new NSPCC survey finds that many parents lose their temper with their child almost every other day.

On top of this, nearly half of parents admit when they hit their child they were over-reacting.

Every week in the UK one to two children die at the hands of the very people who should love and protect them. Many are tiny and defenceless babies under a year old.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

:tu: Another voice of reason.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Losing your temper is human. It's how you deal with it that makes the difference.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

And there are millions and millions more parents who just give their child a quick slap when they are misbehaving, after verbal discipline has failed.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I'm not an advocate of hitting children but, knowing what little I do about Russ from reading his posts, I suspect his form of physical discipline would be mild and hardly likely to trouble child protection agencies (although other parents, as Sean points out, may not know where to draw a line or control their anger). My ire is aimed fairly and squarely at those who think it is acceptable to assault children, take pride in it and actually think it's going to achieve something positive.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I'd be interested to see what the universal measure of "A Quick Slap" is - location, pressure, speed, what warrants a repetition, and whether they get harder in relation to the discipliner's frustration.

From the NSPCC Website:

Hitting your child if they have done something you think is naughty simply doesn't work. Your child will copy the way you act, so if you hit them, they learn it is ok to hit other people. They may turn into bullies at school, and even hit back at you next time. If you catch yourself about to lash out, count to ten. It may calm the whole situation down.

Seeing red; exploding with anger; wanting to hit your child because you've tried everything else. If you reach this level of anger, it has turned into rage. Rage is always destructive, hurtful, and if you experience it, you will need to get some help.

Click for some extra information.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I don't know of anyone on this forum that advocates assualting children
__________________

So why is society getting more violent and not less?
50 years ago most children got the belt or spoon at home, or the cane (or witnessed) at school.
By that reasoning, the majority of adults in the UK should be violent thugs and bullies.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I can't really see the point in hitting a child. Having said that in this nice loud war zone that i live in there are about 20 kids ranging in ages, that i could cheerfully throttle. Sorry if this offends some people but these kids arent misguided or just being kids they are out and out little ******** and some of them aren't a product of bad parenting either, they know the difference between right and wrong they just choose to ignore it. They dont know what discipline is and need a quick slap. These are todays kids and tomorrows future it makes me shudder to think what they are going to grow up to become.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Because society and our culture has in the whole changed massivly in the past 50 years?!

You're surely not suggesting that the only possible reason that things aren't the same as 50 years ago (which, by my reconing was the end of the second world war - hardly the best example of society) is because of corporal punishment being taken out of schools?

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I recall very clearly when my eldest was a mere toddler him reaching for a hot gas fire. I was there in a flash and slapped his hand, quite sharply, in my panic.

For years after, he associated that fire with that slap - in fact he thought the fire had done it. He never tried to touch it again.

Just one example where it was not abuse and actually in the child's interest. Hence the outright ban is far too extreme and could criminalise a responsible parent.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Perhaps TW can expand on what happened?
Escpecially when it sounds like the 13 year old involved was found guilty of a custodial offence.
Could it have been that TW was defending someone against this 13 year old?
Or are you saying that if someone under 18 attacks you, then you shouldn't defend yourself?

Ok, so what has changed to make that NSPCC statement to be completely inaccurate 50+ years ago but valid now?
How is it that millions of children were exposed to corporal punishment, but didn't go on to become violent thugs, but you slap a kid today and it'll start bullying others?

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I certainly never said physical punishment should be handed out by a stranger, but on the other hand are we to stand still and let a 15 year old physically attack us in the street?

I certainly wouldn't, if they're big enough to have a go, they're big enough to suffer the consequences.

Russ, Would you blame an innocent person doing this if you had an unruly 15 year old who attacked/mugged them?
Are any of the the liberals saying we cannot hit a 15 year old who is trying to mug us, remember a well developed 15 year old is physically capable of doing a lot of damage or even killing someone.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Defense is beating someone who's attacking you back.

Hoping someone aged 13 gets beaten up in jail is not defence, it's seeking vengence.

My point about the 50 years difference is that we can't simplify it into "Corporal punichment = well behaved children, alternative punishment = unruly" - there are many many many more factors to explain it... which I'll admit even I can't fully.

I would say, however, it's probably quite naive to suggest there was no bullying, or a dramatically lower level of bullying 50 years ago - one of the many changes are that these issues are spotted, children have become more integral members of society - their purchasing influencing force alone makes them absolutely essential to the current society (not something I neccessarily agree with, just adding another pointer).

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Defending yourself is one thing. Dishing out your own form of punishment is another.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Vengance is human though.

But the NSPCC is saying mild physical punishment = violent children/bullies

It's as though they have a very patronising view of children that they are unable to tell that a slap as punishment is just punishment, not validation that any violence is allowed

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I believe that we are in the middle of a social engineering program with those who think that by eliminating any form of physical punishment for children that we will eliminate all violence. :(

We shall see what we will see.Already children have become more unruly in the classroom.Not all the unruly element come from poor deprived backgrounds either.Quite a few have good homes with caring parents,and theoretically know right from wrong.It's just that no one is saying no emphatically enough.

However this is still a minority of the population and the world we live in are still the safest it has been in the last 1000 years. :)

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Vengeance is not human.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

If we take for a second that as accepted (which I don't really) does that mean it's excusable though? It's certainly not legal... An eye for an eye and the land will soon be blind (to paraphrase!)

I'm not saying I'm 100% with NSPCC's views - If it comes to "Which statement do you agree with" though, I'm more likely to go to that side than the alternative.

I can certainly see why people would find them patronising, but with any luck there are parents out there who are taking it too far who will realise this and get some of the help they're being offered.

Sean

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Simply remove all physcial punishment, and make it by word of mouth, word of mouth of how harsh prision is, and that if they are caught breaking the law, or being anti-social its one ASBO on them, and then a nice 2year spell inside, with education for under 18's.

I would have it harsh Army camp like, but I would not have physical punishment more, soiltary and uncomfortable, such as single cells, with bars as windows a single radiator, and a blanket and a bible ( or whichever reglious preference ) and a single bed, with a toilet.

This would shock them more, right now they know the jails are cushy and most of there "hood" or the big dude at top who is 'ard etc, says its easy and kewl inside, would soon have a shock when he comes out and is well and truely broken from 2years of no telly, no cars, no snooker no nothing, other then a education, being taught respect to elders, manners, and mainly to speak english instead of this crap chav talk they have.

Thats my own view though.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

But it is not illegal to wish further punishment on someone for a crime they committed.
Acting on vengance is unacceptable, but to want vengance is most certainly human.

Even if the evidence doesn't support it?


Anyway, how about bringing back national service?
I must admit, being only 27, I haven't much knowledge on the subject, but after talking with people who have been through it, it does seem to have been a possitive influence.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

:clap: :clap: :clap: Well said that man. KIds today IMO know there is very little you can do they have rights and boy do they know it. Some of todays yoof culture need a good quick sharp shock.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Those of you who think prison is easy really should visit one. I've visited three and it is frankly laughable to suggest that being detained in one is somehow easy. Add to that that prison really doesn't work as the recidivism rates are apallingly high.

National Service? I wouldn't let my kids do National Service. Not a chance.

There seems to be a lot of knee jerk reactions being espoused. I don't have easy answers but I would say that wilst crime should be punished the higher aim should be to prevent re-offending (and indeed to prevent offending in the first place) which means, fore example, providing decent education and support, inside and outside prison.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

This was my point prisions need to be made tougher, with less luxurys for the prisioners, make it more harsh a enviroment.

That is your personal choice, I think the offer of a Army training course for those in Jail of suitable age could work in the favor of the people in making them then learn how to be a man and have some flaming respect for elders.

Again this is my point, inside the prision there would be a offer of Army traning to the youths of suitable age and build, both physically and mentally.

Also education would be a must, as part of being in Jail they would endure a rougher life then they do now with bared windows etc, and they WOULD have to attend classes, and actually learn basic maths,english etc, and once they are released they are put on a probation within college/school, until they make certain grades and get a job.

If they re-offend within this period or afterwards with it being on a record it would be simply back in and twice as much as before until they learn.

However if they are a persistant drug abuser or other low life moron **** who just terrorise the streets and say and do anything to get out of the new tougher jails there would be a nasty suprise which they would be away off since there first offence.

If after 2times you re-offend making a 3rd crime, you are then given life. As it shows you have no will to contend to the rules of right and wrong, and are truely a menance to society.

This then would mean if he/she showed regret after a set time, and still attended classes a commision or board of some kind would then come up with a idea for release or to keep them within jail.

This is my humble view though.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Agreed with you on that, however the punishment needs to match the crime!

How often these days do you see an article on the news and when you get to the end of it and find out what punishment was meted out you think to yourself - "well they got of bloody lightly!"

Some one I used to know used to go out stealing cars etc, and whenever he was sent down he used the opportunity to use the gym and build himself up and 'network' with other undesirables to be more efficient when he got out again! He certainly was not the 'ard one at the top but he did always say 'doing bird is easy'...

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Punishment to fit the crime a concept that should be enforced everytime, my niece just got mugged for the contents of her handbag. (not a lot) He was apprehended after mugging 4 other women the same evening all to feed his habit. And what was this low life smackhead *******s punishment, 12 months bound over, this is on top of the 6 months binding over that he had to go due to his last mugging crime spree. So him and people like him are free to roam the streets mugging and burgaling as they go while the victims have to live with and suffer the consequences. In reality he and others like him should be thrown away for a long period of time, away from law abiding people.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

This is precisely my point. :tu:

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I'm in no way excusing the crimes but might have been an idea to get him on a drugs rehabilitation programme. So much crime is drug related and yet drug programme places are as rare as rocking horse dooberry. The stupid thing is you often have to get into the Criminal Justice System to have a chance of being offered treatment (and even then you're lucky). This is why I (and a magistrate friend) believe we should legalise and control the distribution of drugs so that we can remove such a major cause of crime, particularly burglary and theft.

Throwing people away for a long period of time will not only cost us a lot of money but not prove effective in rehabilitation (incidenally, did you know they still have sewing workshops in even the highest category prisons. How on earth is that skill going to be useful to people when they are released?!)

If we blindly seek vengeance for crime but in doing so fail to halt it, we are doing no-one any favours.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Being everso slightly biased i wont put my real opinion on the low life smackheads who are a blight on many communities. I see a lot of it in this area every day of the week. As for drug rehabilitation programs good idea but my idea of drug rehabilitation and yours would be worlds apart. no (offence meant ) but the words cold and a form of poultry spring to mind. Just my honest opinion

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

My former neighbour was a heroin addict. Robbed me (allegedly!), robbed another neighbour - which got him caught. Took him going to court to get treatment and then just methadone. I'd known him since he was 12 and he was, and still is in fact, a nice kid (well, in his 20 nows) but he got in too deep. The criminalisation of drugs not only creates criminality through supply and the need for addicts to satify their needs, but it deters addicts from seeking help. We need a much more mature debate in this country about drugs because to my mind it is the biggest single issue we face in terms of the causes of burglary and theft.

Not sure about that cold turkey treatment though ;) It's easier than people might think for people to get addicted, whether its drugs, alcohol, Cable Forum, whatever!!

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

When I was a kid just after the War it was quite common for kids to get a slap if they had done something wrong. The slaps could come from anyone but mainly from relatives and school teachers. The local bobbies were also inclined to give you a warning and a slap if they caught you misbehaving. All these slaps and the odd caning at school didn't turn me into a thug and didn't do me any physical damage, maybe a little mental damage. They taught you right from wrong and that the rights of everyone should be respected. They also taught you that if you did something wrong you were more than likely to be punished.

Todays children also know what's right and wrong but they also know that doing something wrong is unlikely to be punished. They know how far they can push things and many of them do push things to the limit. This attitude is taken into later life and many continue to push everything to the limit. For some it becomes a game where they try to show their superiority by going as far as they can without having to suffer the consequences of their actions. Once they get away with something they try to get away with something that is a bit more of a challenge and before you know it they are hardened criminals.

What punishment can you give kids today to make them see the error of their ways? Many parents don't dole out any punishment because they want an easy life for themselves. Having seen life over a longer period than most on here I would say that I would prefer the remedies that existed in my childhood to the ways that some today are advocating.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

And this post just about sums up the view of a lot of people here.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Some people may not agree with it and some might even try and argue against it but a lot of people will agree 100% with this post.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

My kids get grounded, sent to their bedroom, no sweets, no swimming whatever. Mind you, thankfully they're a pair of goody two shoes who rarely trouble me (still time mind you).

But there is a big difference between a parent administering some mild form of physical punishment and some of the actions advocated ie assaulting someone else's kid.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

As I've said, physical punishment is IMO for the parents only. Woe betide anyone who decides to administer punishment on to my daughter like that. They'll find themselves in court faster than you can say "it's for their own good"

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

And what would you do if they refused to go to their room?

If they had a terrible tantrum?

If while you were you were trying to pick then up to get them their romm they kicked or hit you?

Or then picked up a bone china ornament and smashed it on the floor?

What would you do if you came home and found that they had had their friends round and vandalised your house?

What would you do if you found they had been stealing from you to buy cigarettes and booze?

What would you do if your kids were teenagers more that match for you physically?

What would you do if your kids just ignored you?

Some people don't have goody two shoes

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Everything i wanted to say and more.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I agree 100%, smacking a child ''after'' they have been warned ''not'' to do something is in my opinion ok. On the other hand using ones fists is assault, and lets face it, anyone who would use his fists on a child or a woman is not a man. (This is offcourse from a mans perspective, and not ment to be sexist seeing as certain posters prolly think I'm a psychotic thug from some previous posts).

On th other hand, if I am being verbally abused, and physically intimidated (well it has been tried) by 6 - 10, fifteen to sixteen year olds, and they then decide to try and get physical, then I reserve the right to defend myself. The fact that this happened to me within the last eight or so weeks, in my mind only underlines the face that a proportion of todays youth are running wild. In the end of the afore mentioned encounter, one of the teenages ended up on the floor with his right arm in a painfull arm lock. If teenages want to get physical with adults, then they must accept that they might well get hurt.

And before ANYONE comments, no I didnt enjoy myself. But I did get a certain ammount of satisfaction from teaching a fool not to try throwing his weight about.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

There must be many kids like yours who are perfect little angels at home but behave very differently when you are not about. As I previously said, they have got everything worked out and know that if someone else complains about their behaviour you will probably say it wasn't them or the situation must have been exaggerated.

I would never hit another persons kids but firmly believe that parents and others in charge of the kids should be able to smack where it is warranted.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

My wife is a teacher in a comprehensive school, i have lost count of the number of times she has come home after suffering verbal and physical abuse at the hands of some little scrote. What do the school, the local council and the police do in a word sod all. All they manage to do was throw labels around, its not his fault he has ADHD, Aspergers, oh wait no he hasnt hes got and i love this one SCHOOL PHOBIA. Well thats allright then hes 6foot tall and built like Mike Tyson but hes scared of school so thats why he is a violent little ****. Maybe just maybe he hasn't got anything wrong, the concept that he may be just a violent little *** who does it because he can and does not know what discipline is seems to be an alien concept to theses do gooders. What he needs is a swift kick up the **** and the concept of discipline ramming down him. Would i do it myself to damn right i would where do is sign up.:Yikes: :Yikes: I just want to say that schoolteachers i take my hat off to them they have more patience than i have .

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

These are a bit more than just 'labels' - they're properly diagnosed conditions. I'll have to admit to never having heard of 'school phobia', but I suspect it's some sort of psychosis, which is not the same as a lifelong disability like Aspergers.

That's not to excuse verbal or physical abuse from any pupil, but a distinction has to be made between - you can't just lump the kids with special needs in with the trouble makers.
__________________

Strangely enough, mine are quite the opposite. Little horrors at home, but lovely kids away from home, by all accounts (most of the time, anyway :))

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Has your wife consulted other staff members and his form & year teacher, do they also have this problem. Has the issue been discussed with school managers? No one should put up with constant abuse especially if it is physical this sounds very serious, has she consulted her union. maybe a swift summons for assault could help. No teacher should accept or be expected to accept constant physical or verbal abuse. Seems the school ought to exclude the pupil concerned pdq!

:)

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I agree many parents think their kids are angels, Andyl may have kids who are angels but many are not.

I would not go around hitting someones kids for being cheeky etc, but I stand by my beliefs that a teenager physically attacking me will get exactly the same treatment as an adult.

Age is no barrier, if they are big enough to dish it out, they are big enough to take it.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Thing is Russ, I can be pretty much 100% sure that if a PC brought home your daughter after she had done something wrong, or even just informed you that she had, or if the school informed you that she'd been disruptive/misbehaving etc in school, you'd definitely deal with her and let her know it's not acceptable.

Unfortunately there are so many "parents" who would have a go at the PC or the school and try and shift the blame onto someone else.

I remember hearing about a 5 year old who called a WPC a "f'kin cnt"
When the WPC asked the mother if she was going to let her daughter get away with that she got the following reply "Well, you lot have just arrested her brother so what do you expect?" :shocked:

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Well my kids are 9 and 10 so they could have plenty of tricks up their sleeves yet but I honestly can't see me hitting them, and certainly not assaukting them. Hopefully though we've brought them up with enough respect for others that it won't be too rough a ride in later years - that is maybe the key; the early years. We were lucky (well we made sacrifices too) in that we could afford for my partner to take several years out when they were born and now I'm around cos I work from home. Whatever happens, they are not going to learn from violence.

Ianahuth - I hear what you're saying but I'm not daft enough to think my kids are purer than the driven snow. They're not bad kids but they can have their moments (as do all kids) and if they upset others - adults or children - they have to make amends and pay a price (grounding etc). That very rarely happens though. But I will also defend them when they get blamed for things that aren't their fault or when they get picked on by adults simply for kicking a ball about. Frankly, there are some miserable adults out there!!

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

The lad was 15. He had been giving my disabled mother grief for several months, kicking and smashing my parents fence, throwing things at the windows. ONe day whilst I was there, it started, my mother against my advice went to chase them. They didnt see me come out the back door, as I got to the back gate, one had hold of my mother with his fist drwn back ready to punch her.
Needless to say he didnt get the chance, come to think of it how I didnt kill him I dont know. yes I punched him, yes I kicked him, yes I kicked him half way down the street, then started on his mates who legged it.
He called the police, and if it wasnt for a neighbour I would have been arrested, he told them I was defending my disabled mother. and if he thought I was over reacting would have stopped me.

But I guess in this world we live in, he should have been allowed to punch a disabled women, with an 80% mobility problem, brittle bones, crumbling spine thats inoperable with arthiritis both forms in every single joint of her body, and maybe it should have been made out he was good little boy, that was just highly strung, or spirited doing what boys do.
I probably was in the wrong, maybe I shouldn't have tried to kick his head from his body, perhaps I shouldn't have tried to smash my toes through his ribs. Do I regret it?

No.
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3 of my mates work as prison officers. They find the place a joke. They say its not tough, the threat of violence is there yes, but when you live by the sword......

People dont pity them, yes they do have TV's,. yes they do have 3 meals a day, yes they do have recreational facilites, yes they can get an education.
Or they can wallow in self pity, get out realise lifes harder outside, and re-offend.
IOnside you dont need:-
Money
to pay bills
pay tax
provide a roof over your head

Outside, you have to:-
pay rent or a mortgage
pay your bills
buy food
get money


a glimpse of a prison is by no means a complete view.
depending on categories of prison depends on what luxuries they are allowed. None of them have a poor standard of living. None of them are starving or malnurished.

Yes they dont have any freedom, but isnt prison a punishment? no it isnt, apparently prison is not designed to punish, its designed to rehabilitate.

No matter how you look at it, its failing as both a punishmnet and a rehabilitation.

As for being glad a 13 year old got a life sentence and not saddned by the thought he may get the **** kicked out of him inside. The little ******* aged 12, raped a woman!!!!!!
If he could do that at 12, and after being abused himself what kind of threat was he going to be when older?
Or is it a case of he'll grow up? its just a kid thing, excuse me if I'm wrong, there a serious problem when a 12 year old commits rape.
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Russ, in a sense I understand what your saying, but by having that attitude your saying your daughter does not have to respect anyone that is a figure of authority, simply because your stance renders that authority powerless. What can they do......."I'm going to see your father" not exactly going to command an ounce of respect is it?

What if your daughter had a knife to someones throat? Would you still try and sue if they laid a finger on her?
And I pray you dont say my daughter will never do that. I'm pretty sure hitlers parents didn't think he would kill millions.

I'm sure your parenting will teach your daughter better than that, I'm not saying we should go out and belt kids for the fun of it, but in some circumstances like my own, its difficult to do anything other than smack em one.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I once worked next door to the open prison and youth offenders wing at Thorpe Arch. It wasn't a prison it was a five star holiday camp. We went inside the prison a few times when playing a team of prisoners at football and cricket and I was amazed at their standard of living, facilities and menus within their canteens. Several of the prisoners said they would re-offend when they got out as it was a much better life in there.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

There was an incident about 18 months ago in a neighbouring town, one teenager went to the local travelling funfair to look for a murder victim. She decided on one and stabbed her many times in an out of control frenzy, luckily for the victim she survived to live after the attack.

The most amazing thing was the victim was saved by a guy who waded in and not necessarily very delicately disabled the girl attempting to murder the other. The real amazing thing though was the hostility the guy got from all the onlookers who complained about him attacking the girl who was stabbing her victim within inches of death.

The guy was apparently afraid for his own life, as the crowd took all the play away from the knife attack and vented anger at him!

What a strange would we live in, perhaps if I witness a similar incident I should turn the other cheek and walk away ignoring that it's happening.


Then again ignoring things that happen is a Liberal approach.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Unfortunately they get all get lumped into Special Needs and are 'statemented' in just the same way.
I personally would love to take the badly behaved out of the equation and just leave those with a genuine learning difficulty getting statemented.There might be more money spent on them in that case... :tu:

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Yes, he looks full of remorse...

;)

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Wow, a 4 month detention for breaking his ASBO.

To be honest, what really boggles my mind is that people wont or cant take a stand against this sort of little scrote. There is no way on this earth I'd have 14 year old turn my neighbourhood into a ghetto, where he could rum riot. IMHO there are times when the community need to grow a f***ing backbone .

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Sad but true.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

[QUOTE=Tuftus]Sad but true.[/QUO
Very true but if the community suddenly grew a back bonethey would be in the wrong also sad but true. Recently in this area a group of youths about 6 or 7 in the age range of 14 to 15 thought it would be quite funny to hang around the shopping centre and use local pensioners as goal posts:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: . They should have been in school but thy have school phobia so they can be forgiven for that. When the local police arrived they gave the usual taunts and insults and foul language, where they pick up that language from is beyond me it wasnt in school cos they never go. However the long suffering police woman had enough of this and confiscated the football. Cue the biggest police enquiry round here for a while, after one of the parents complained about the officer STEALING there football, long story short officer suspended while they carried out the investigtion, and one bunch, of out of control litttle ba****ds laughing there heads off. Absoultely crackers when there rights come above the safety of some pensioners. All that is needed is a dark alley and the little pieces of **** having some discipline or a taste of there own medicine kicking into them. There would not be a shortage of volunteers around here thats for sure.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

I see your point and I feel your rage.

It makes you wonder where the justice is in society.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

As I've said numerous times before, there's a difference between assault and self defence. She can easily learn to respect authority without them physically punishing her.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

TW, first can I thank you for explaining what happened with the 15 year old.
I doubt he'll try the same thing again.

Secondly, with regards to the above, I'm pretty sure that if Russ', mine or your child was told "I'm going to see your father" after being caught doing something wrong/illegal etc then they'd be quaking in their shoes knowing that they would get a punishment when they got home.

Unfortunatley, too many parents refuse to deal with their children in such a situation, choosing rather to take it out on the person reporting the offence.
I know one parent came to school and threatened a teacher with physical violence because his child had been given a detention!

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

:mad: There was a news item on the front page of my local newspaper this week, about youths going on a rampage last weekend. The newspaper described the damage as hundreds of pounds worth!

I was speaking to an uncle earlier on, who lives right in the middle of where it all happened. He said there were about forty teenagers, most were probably still school kids going on a rampage. He said people were afraid to leave their houses, and he was watching from the window of his flat as they ripped doors of garages, smashed the roofs of the garages onto cars, ripped drain pipes off houses, smashed windows on houses and totally smashed the local convenience store to pieces. Then they proceeded to smash all the windows on the church, threw bottles and stones at passing cars.

The local councillor is Quote "Asking for the do-gooders to stop and some action to start"

Kids eh, always been the same. Me and my mates used to smash up the neighbours property ourselves....not :mad:

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

time for a real "battle royale"

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

It must be nearly election time.

The parties are all starting to trot out the usual ill-considered, narrow-minded ideas to appeal to small sections of their voters.

Now we have the Tories simply blaming parents (remember them, parents? Blamed for everything and supported in nothing!) for kids' behaviour.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4395579.stm

Quote:

Parents, not schools, are to blame for creating "foul-mouthed, feckless, potentially violent youths", Conservatives say.

And of course nothing the Tories ever did contributed to it at all - like the Tatcherite ideals of the 80's...

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

Well they want a lock down as I am bloody sick of the agro I get off them whenever I go out.

Re: The Youth of Today...
 

The local newspaper is carrying the story this week about teenagers, who have set fire to 5 buses. They have caused over a quarter of a million pounds worth of damage for this operator.

It's about time they were caught and strung up by the ba**s :mad: