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-   -   NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House? (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=24651)

cr80123 28-02-2005 09:45

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
No they never sent me one when I got TV and telephone. When I got broadband they just sent me a network cable through the post with a book of instructions and a cd. I believe you agree to the terms and conditions when you register online.

ian@huth 28-02-2005 10:42

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cr80123
No they never sent me one when I got TV and telephone. When I got broadband they just sent me a network cable through the post with a book of instructions and a cd. I believe you agree to the terms and conditions when you register online.

It would appear from posts on here over the years that many times NTL forget to give the customer a contract and check that it is signed and returned. They ought to tighten up their procedures regarding this, it can't be that hard.

gordk 28-02-2005 13:05

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Wow seems like my original post started quite a discussion! Some interesting points on both sides, but what would be most preferable would be if I could freeze my account until I return to the UK and get a place sorted (hopefully with NTL service availability). I realise however, at the moment it is a 3 month hold.


I have lived at my rented accommodation for a number of years and assumed it was safe for a fair period in time. The news it was being sold was very sudden and not expected otherwise I definitely would not have signed the contract (which I was led to believe was for 7 months interestingly?) Also lots of people seem to be discussing the cost of NTL to install the broadband - there have been many people living in the place (it is a shared house) who have had NTL connections in the past so I was just provided with a cable, box and cd (which then didnt work as services were down in my area - Leeds for 2 weeks before I was able to install it on my computer and was charged for that period!)

My final resolution so far as I am leaving the UK in April, is to transfer the broadband service to my friend (who currently also lives in the house and hopefully will move to a NTL serviced area). By doing this at least it can get used (although she does not really need it) and can cancel it as soon as the contract runs out in November.

This is not really a resolution and has left me feeling rather cold for NTL who as mentioned previously, I have used for many years and would probably have continued using in the future. However, because I am concerned over the customer relations and obvious non defined terms and conditions in NTLs contract I will not be using their services any more.

I would have assumed if there is no mention under the terms and conditions of terminating the service if moving area then it can be argued for just as much as against. If NTL have changed their policy recently this has not been reflected in the t&c and as the length of the discussion here seems to show it is something that really needs clearing up. I accept what has happened in my case and if I had just decided to move while knowing I was held under a 12 month contract then fine I would accept it even more, but I guess all we can do is learn from our mistakes and DEFINITELY (at least try) not to make them again!
__________________

OK Now After reading the link posted above to the T&C on NTLs homepage I am even more confused -

3. Duration
3.1 For our Starter Pack the minimum period of service is 12 months starting on the date we activate the Services. You can only terminate this Agreement during that minimum period if conditions 19.4 or 20.1 apply otherwise we may charge you a cancellation charge which will be the charges which would have been payable to the end of the minimum period. After the minimum period, either you or us may terminate this Agreement on one month's written notice.

3.2 For all other Services (unless otherwise stated in our Price Lists) the minimum period of service is one month and either you or us may terminate this Agreement to the extent that it relates to such Services on one month's written notice.


"Starter Pack" means our basic telephone and/or TV package or any replacement or variation (whether under the same name or any other name);

So does that mean broadband????
__________________

OK pulling at straws here :Yikes: is the following clause viable or am I in a sinking ship?

27. Unforeseeable Events

Neither party is liable for any breach of this Agreement which is caused by something beyond their reasonable control
including Acts of God, fire, lightening, extremely severe weather, flood, a national or local emergency, explosion, war, military operations, civil disorder, damage to the ntl Network, terrorism, vandalism, industrial disputes, or acts of local or central Government or other competent authorities.

ian@huth 28-02-2005 13:13

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
gordk, if you have lived in the rented property for a number of years don't you have the right to continue living there? What does your lease say? What type of tenancy is it, Rent Act, Assured or assured shorthold?

bob_builder 28-02-2005 13:25

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ian@huth
gordk, if you have lived in the rented property for a number of years don't you have the right to continue living there? What does your lease say? What type of tenancy is it, Rent Act, Assured or assured shorthold?

If it is like the majority of private tenants around here (myself included) it will be a standard assured shorthold agreement where you have no rights beyond the end of your current contract.

I can see this being a problem to a lot of people if all the people with buy-to-let mortgages decide to sell up at the end of the current lease to cash-in before the house prices fall.

gordk 28-02-2005 14:11

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Unfortunately I have been renting from the father of a friend and have never as such had a tenancy agreement - nor have the other people in the house. We have the standard 2 month notice period and that is all unfortunately :(

Goes to show its not wise to get too comfortable and as soon as I can afford I would like to get my own place.

Chris W 28-02-2005 14:16

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gordk
Neither party is liable for any breach of this Agreement which is caused by something beyond their reasonable control[/b] including Acts of God, fire, lightening, extremely severe weather, flood, a national or local emergency, explosion, war, military operations, civil disorder, damage to the ntl Network, terrorism, vandalism, industrial disputes, or acts of local or central Government or other competent authorities.

Ah hah... This is called "Frustration"

A contract is frustrated if an event occurs which is out of control of both parties, such as the examples given.

I don't think you leaving the property would be classified as frustration... but the answer of the law is usually "maybe" so it is worth a try :)

scrotnig 28-02-2005 15:13

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Gordk, what area of the country are you in?

gordk 28-02-2005 15:19

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Currently I am in Leeds LS11

scrotnig 28-02-2005 16:33

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
PM me your details and the date you're moving out, I'll arrange the disconnection for that date.
__________________

This matter will now be sorted.

gordk 28-02-2005 16:38

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Thank you :)

cr80123 28-02-2005 16:46

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
So where does that leave me then? I'd say I can get rid of the TV and telephone at anytime as I've signed nothing for them, but am still tied into the terms and conditions for broadband as I accepted them whilst registering online. Or by merely using the TV and phone do I automatically agree to abide by the terms and conditions?

scrotnig 28-02-2005 16:58

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cr80123
So where does that leave me then? I'd say I can get rid of the TV and telephone at anytime as I've signed nothing for them, but am still tied into the terms and conditions for broadband as I accepted them whilst registering online. Or by merely using the TV and phone do I automatically agree to abide by the terms and conditions?

All three services are subject to the contract, so yes, if you've used them you'd normally be deemed to have agreed.

cr80123 28-02-2005 17:34

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
I'd have thought I'd be subject to the terms and conditions, but not the contract as I haven't signed it. Is there an electronic version of this contract avialable anywhere?

scrotnig 28-02-2005 17:38

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cr80123
I'd have thought I'd be subject to the terms and conditions, but not the contract as I haven't signed it. Is there an electronic version of this contract avialable anywhere?

ntl only supply services under their published contract. If you don't agree to that contract, the correct procedure is to refuse the installers permission to install.

If you commence using the service then you are legally bound and no court in the land would rule otherwise.

Using your own theory, you presumably wouldn't mind at all if ntl suddenly trebled your charges...after all, you wouldn't be bound by the contract so they could alter charges when they pleased.

Contracts are a two way thing. I'm afraid you can't get round it this way at all.

cr80123 28-02-2005 17:44

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Yes I agree in part, but surely they're obliged to give me a copy of the contract to read and refuse to sign if I wished? In fact I'd have thought they shouldn't even be supplying me with anything without a signed contract. To be honest I'm a bit confused since Ian mentioned this contract with a specific address on it - the only thing I'd heard of before were the terms and conditions which I thought formed the contract.

scrotnig 28-02-2005 17:47

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cr80123
Yes I agree in part, but surely they're obliged to give me a copy of the contract to read and refuse to sign if I wished? In fact I'd have thought they shouldn't even be supplying me with anything without a signed contract. To be honest I'm a bit confused since Ian mentioned this contract with a specific address on it - the only thing I'd heard of before were the terms and conditions which I thought formed the contract.

What happens is when you order the service a contract is sent out. You are asked to return it, but not returning it won't prevent the installation taking place.

cr80123 28-02-2005 17:54

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Yes but I didn't receive it. Do they not check to see if they've been signed and returned? In fact, thinking about it further, I don't see how I can possibly be under a contract I haven't signed. Unless of course by ordering the service I automatically agrre to be under it. But in that case why bother sending one out for signature?

Derek 28-02-2005 17:59

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
No they don't check. When you allow the engineers into your home and sign to say you are happy with the work it normally means you are happy with the work and to be bound by the T&C's (which are normally also on the back of the installation confirmation)

And before you complain this is exactly how Sky operate as well.

cr80123 28-02-2005 18:04

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Ah yes but this contract seems to be different from the terms and conditions, does anyone have an electronic copy? And why do they bother sending it out for you to sign if they don't check if you have?!

Derek 28-02-2005 18:05

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
They send it out for your records and so you can cancel before installation if you are planning to move to the south pole before the 12 months are up :rolleyes:

cr80123 28-02-2005 18:10

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
So there's nowhere on it for you to sign and they don't ask you to return it, it's purely for your records?

scrotnig 28-02-2005 18:27

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cr80123
Yes but I didn't receive it. Do they not check to see if they've been signed and returned? In fact, thinking about it further, I don't see how I can possibly be under a contract I haven't signed. Unless of course by ordering the service I automatically agrre to be under it. But in that case why bother sending one out for signature?

No, what happens is that you are told at point of sale that the contract will be sent. If you don't receive it, it's your responsibility to tell the company prior to installation. Once install takes place you're bound whether you've seen it or not.

The company can do nothing more than post it. They aren't obliged to send people round and check you got it. If it's sent, that's good enough.

I used to deal with similar situations when I worked in Credit Control. Almost every customer would argue that we couldn't cut them off for non payment as they had not received their bill. Once we'd established it had been sent, we would advise thus:

"You need to take that up with the Post Office".

ntl rely on the customer to call us and inform us that a bill hasn't been received...copy bills can then be arranged at no cost. The company isn't psychic, and customers are naive if they think that non-receipt of a bill suddenly means they don't have to pay for the service.

Transpose the contract situation on to the above, and you've pretty much got the situation summed up. ntl are not psychic and don't know that you haven't received the contract, you need to call them and tell them. If the customer decides to proceed with installation without seeing the contract, that is THEIR personal choice and they will still be bound by it regardless.

cr80123 28-02-2005 18:39

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Again a lot of what you're saying makes sense, but surely there's a big difference between contracts and bills? You're liable for bills as you've actually received goods/services but a written contract must require a signature? I'd have thought ntl would keep a copy of it. Unless of course you're saying I entered into a verbal contract when I ordered the services and the written contract is just confirmation of what I agreed. I have a friend who is a solicitor who is back from holiday on Friday, I was going to ask him about the terms and conditions and moving house etc. but now I'll first ask him about this written contract which doesn't require a signature. I don't even think a written contract was mentioned when I first phoned up but of course I cannot prove that (although neither could ntl). I'll let you know what he says.

Derek 28-02-2005 18:47

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cr80123
*snip*
I'll let you know what he says.

I'll save you the hastle. If he's any good he'll say something along the lines of.

"Ntl are in the right."

cr80123 28-02-2005 18:53

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Well it's no hassle I'll be seeing him anyway I expect, I may as well ask him. I'd be suprised if he says you're legally bound to a contract you didn't sign.

h3adru5h 28-02-2005 23:06

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cr80123
Well it's no hassle I'll be seeing him anyway I expect, I may as well ask him. I'd be suprised if he says you're legally bound to a contract you didn't sign.

When registering your broadband service you are presented with the electronic version of the terms & conditions which form your contract. It is stated clearly to read the terms & conditions and either accept of decline the installation. If declined, then the installation will cancel and you will not be bound to the minimum term of 12 months. Should you press accept however, then you have agreed to the terms & conditions and the contract has been agreed to electronically. The agreement will be recorded remotely to ntl: record servers and an account will be generated and completed, allowing you to go online. I would imagine that you are using the broadband service, thus meaning you have agreed to the terms & conditions and subsequent contract, generated following your agreement.

It is important to point out that the terms & conditions is the same as I have listed previously and you may look at this at any time. Alternatively you may call customer services on 0800 052 2000 to obtain a copy of the residential terms & conditions.

ntl: have made no secrets regarding the minimum term of service. It is clearly stated in the terms & conditions, hire agreements and any literature advertising services. We recommend at all times to research the service prior to agreeing to the terms & conditions, thus restricting yourself to a minimum term of 12 months.

ntl: cannot and will not be liable, or responsible, for any information that has been overlooked by the customer. The customer services department are available to discuss the terms of service prior to installation should you have any concerns.

Chris W 28-02-2005 23:25

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cr80123
Well it's no hassle I'll be seeing him anyway I expect, I may as well ask him. I'd be suprised if he says you're legally bound to a contract you didn't sign.

make sure you explain the context- this is very important in every legal problem. And as the others say- you are bound by the contract despite no actual "scribble on a bit of paper"

ian@huth 01-03-2005 00:01

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
The contract with NTL is an agreement made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

There are specific proceedures which have to be followed in such an agreement. Basically the Agreement is an hire agreement.

The customer must be supplied with a written copy of the Agreement which has to be signed by both parties. There are precise rules about what the agreement should contain.

If you want to know more have a look at http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A...0/0/oft017.pdf

h3adru5h 01-03-2005 00:09

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ian@huth
The contract with NTL is an agreement made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

There are specific proceedures which have to be followed in such an agreement. Basically the Agreement is an hire agreement.

The customer must be supplied with a written copy of the Agreement which has to be signed by both parties. There are precise rules about what the agreement should contain.

If you want to know more have a look at http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A...0/0/oft017.pdf

This is correct. If you are not entirely satisfied with the services or the terms & conditions to your contract then under the aforementioned Consumer Credit Act, you may cancel within a reasonable notice period from the point of sale. Although "reasonable" is not defined within the terms & conditions, it is reasonable to expect 7 (seven) days for direct sales (via door-to-door salesperson) or 14 (fourteen) days from telesale order. Please read the terms & conditions for further information on this.

Please note that the clock starts ticking from the point of sale.

scrotnig 01-03-2005 02:10

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by h3adru5h
This is correct. If you are not entirely satisfied with the services or the terms & conditions to your contract then under the aforementioned Consumer Credit Act, you may cancel within a reasonable notice period from the point of sale. Although "reasonable" is not defined within the terms & conditions, it is reasonable to expect 7 (seven) days for direct sales (via door-to-door salesperson) or 14 (fourteen) days from telesale order. Please read the terms & conditions for further information on this.

Please note that the clock starts ticking from the point of sale.

No. Sorry, this is a common misconception.

What you're thinking of is the Distance Selling Regulations. This gives customers a period of 7 days to cancel the contract PRIOR TO INSTALLATION, and only where the company have approached them.

In practice ntl will always allow a cancellation prior to install regardless.

However, once the services are installed THAT IS IT. You do NOT have a period of time to decide if you like the services. ntl will NOT spend hundreds of pounds installing you, only for you to decide you don't really like it and then have it removed a week later. This applies even if the seven and fourteen day periods have not expired....they expire immediately upon installation.

This is a fact, and anyone who thinks otherwise, I suggest you get the service installed then try and cancel the following day. Ain't gonna happen.

Obviously things are different if the installed service doesn't work. But if it is installed and works, and you simply change your mind the next day, then I'm afraid it is tough tumshy....and rightly so!

If anyone wants an analogy...ring a window company and request double glazing and uPVC frames. Then have it fitted a few days later. Then ring the window company and tell them you have changed your mind and would they please remove them and refit your old windows. Again, ain't gonna happen.

Please, no barrack room lawyers telling me I'm wrong. This is what happens and it was my job to tell customers this for almost two years.

Neil 01-03-2005 05:23

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scrotnig
No. Sorry, this is a common misconception.

What you're thinking of is the Distance Selling Regulations. This gives customers a period of 7 days to cancel the contract PRIOR TO INSTALLATION, and only where the company have approached them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrotnig
Please, no barrack room lawyers telling me I'm wrong. This is what happens and it was my job to tell customers this for almost two years.

I do believe you're wrong Mr Scrotnig, & may well have beem mis-informing people...:erm: :angel:

The Distance Selling act entitles you to cancel goods up to 7 days from receipt of the goods.

Quote:

CONSUMER PROTECTION (DISTANCE SELLING)

These regulations apply to most contracts made at a distance. They require consumers to be given a certain amount of information before they commit themselves to the deal. They also provide a short cancellation period. The actual length of the cancellation period, however, depends on whether or not the required information has been given. If not it is three months and seven working days.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/guides...w/index4.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/draft_letters/cancel.rtf

Now.....how do you plead in the CF Court?

Guilty or Not Guilty!? :D

poolking 01-03-2005 06:42

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cr80123
Well it's no hassle I'll be seeing him anyway I expect, I may as well ask him. I'd be suprised if he says you're legally bound to a contract you didn't sign.

You will be trust me.

The same goes for contracts of employment, you don't have to sign the contract, but if you don't let your employer know that you disagree with the terms of the contract, after a certain a period of time your employer automatically assumes that you accept the terms and conditions of your contract.

Derek 01-03-2005 07:40

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil
I do believe you're wrong Mr Scrotnig, & may well have beem mis-informing people...:erm: :angel:

Sadly I don't have access to my Ntl email account any longer but this same question came up about a year ago and I checked with the Ntl legal department who sent me a loooooonnnnnggg explanation of all the ins and outs of the contracts.

Basically it all boiled down to once the services were installed, working and signed off then the minimum term kicked in. This was one of the reasons why 7 days was (almost always) left between confirmation and installation.

intalex 01-03-2005 07:55

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scrotnig
No. Sorry, this is a common misconception.

What you're thinking of is the Distance Selling Regulations. This gives customers a period of 7 days to cancel the contract PRIOR TO INSTALLATION, and only where the company have approached them.

In practice ntl will always allow a cancellation prior to install regardless.

However, once the services are installed THAT IS IT. You do NOT have a period of time to decide if you like the services. ntl will NOT spend hundreds of pounds installing you, only for you to decide you don't really like it and then have it removed a week later. This applies even if the seven and fourteen day periods have not expired....they expire immediately upon installation.

This is a fact, and anyone who thinks otherwise, I suggest you get the service installed then try and cancel the following day. Ain't gonna happen.

Obviously things are different if the installed service doesn't work. But if it is installed and works, and you simply change your mind the next day, then I'm afraid it is tough tumshy....and rightly so!

If anyone wants an analogy...ring a window company and request double glazing and uPVC frames. Then have it fitted a few days later. Then ring the window company and tell them you have changed your mind and would they please remove them and refit your old windows. Again, ain't gonna happen.

Please, no barrack room lawyers telling me I'm wrong. This is what happens and it was my job to tell customers this for almost two years.

That's funny cos' NTL initially installed my broadband so quick that I hadn't even received my contract and t&c's by post yet. As for the electronic version, you don't get that up until all after all the cabling has been installed. I wonder how you are agreeing to the t&c's by agreeing to the installation, when you haven't even been sent the t&c's prior to the installation!!! Don't remember the full t&c's written anywhere on my installation slip either. Chicken and egg situation here!!!

h3adru5h 01-03-2005 08:02

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scrotnig
No. Sorry, this is a common misconception.

What you're thinking of is the Distance Selling Regulations. This gives customers a period of 7 days to cancel the contract PRIOR TO INSTALLATION, and only where the company have approached them.

In practice ntl will always allow a cancellation prior to install regardless.

However, once the services are installed THAT IS IT. You do NOT have a period of time to decide if you like the services. ntl will NOT spend hundreds of pounds installing you, only for you to decide you don't really like it and then have it removed a week later. This applies even if the seven and fourteen day periods have not expired....they expire immediately upon installation.

This is a fact, and anyone who thinks otherwise, I suggest you get the service installed then try and cancel the following day. Ain't gonna happen.

Obviously things are different if the installed service doesn't work. But if it is installed and works, and you simply change your mind the next day, then I'm afraid it is tough tumshy....and rightly so!

Whoah!

This information is incorrect. Due to the services operating on rented equipment from ntl: then the same rules apply as governed by the Consumer Credit Act. You may wish to check this out prior to posting incorrect naughties on the forum mate.... (it's my job to know this btw). :D

Neil 01-03-2005 08:13

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dezzo
Sadly I don't have access to my Ntl email account any longer but this same question came up about a year ago and I checked with the Ntl legal department who sent me a loooooonnnnnggg explanation of all the ins and outs of the contracts.

Basically it all boiled down to once the services were installed, working and signed off then the minimum term kicked in. This was one of the reasons why 7 days was (almost always) left between confirmation and installation.

Well the BBC/Watchdog website says differently, & (no offence) but I know which one I believe. :)

(Just for clarity-thats the BBC-as opposed to ntl, I'm not saying I disbelieve you personally. :D )

Derek 01-03-2005 09:36

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil
Well the BBC/Watchdog website says differently, & (no offence) but I know which one I believe. :)

But there are exceptions to this rule (airline tickets being the one that immediately springs to mind.
There was something that Ntl used to defeat the DSR if it ever came to court. I just wish I had thought to keep a copy of it somewhere. :dunce:

ian@huth 01-03-2005 12:06

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Just having read this thread from my last posting in it #129 it appears that no one has bothered to take note of that post.

The contract between NTL and the customer is a Hire Agreement made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. To be fully enforcable the Act requires that Agreements are in writing and signed by both parties.

Cancellation rights (changing your mind about the contract) may or may not exist and depend on where the contract was signed. If the contract was negotiated and signed on NTLs premises then there is no right to cancel (cooling off period). If the contract was negotiated by phone or letter and signed in the customers home then again there is no right to cancel. If the contract was negotiated face to face and signed away from NTLs premises then there is a right to cancel. Cancellation can still take place after the equipment has been installed if it is within the cancellation period that the law stipulates. An installation satisfaction form, if worded in the correct manner, can remove the termination right if the customer signs it.

One point to remember si

Quote:

Regulations made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which have been in
operation since May 1985, are designed to ensure that people who hire goods have
a clear record of their agreements with owners, and of their rights and obligations
under those agreements. The relevant regulations are listed in Appendix 8 on
page 43.
All regulated hire agreements must be in writing †“ and they must give specific
information in a specific way. There are also rules on when and how owners must
supply hirers with copies of their agreements.
The quote was from a document at http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A...0/0/oft017.pdf

Whether Agreements are cancelable or not are summarised at
http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C...D/0/oft018.pdf
http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/1...E/0/oft019.pdf

cr80123 01-03-2005 12:12

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
I saw it Ian, and assumed from it that my agreement is not legally enforcable as it was not given in writing and I did not sign it.

Derek 01-03-2005 12:21

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Did you, or anyone else left to supervise the installation sign the satisfaction sheet?

cr80123 01-03-2005 12:25

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Well yes but surely that's the satisfactory installation sheet (it was just one sheet of paper on a clipboard with lots of boxes on it), not the hire agreement. I don't suppose ntl would have a chance in hell of finding it anyway.

ian@huth 01-03-2005 12:33

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dezzo
Did you, or anyone else left to supervise the installation sign the satisfaction sheet?

Myself I signed the contract with a NTL salesman at my home. I did sign the satisfaction sheet but cannot remember the detail of it but do know that I was satisfied with the content of it. Is there an online copy of this form or can one be scanned and posted?

If anyone is unsure of what they signed they can always ask NTL for copies of all documentation, memos, notes and computer records that they hold. This is done under the Data Protection Act which may involve a £10 fee.

I was present at my daughters installation and the installers didn't ask for any satisfaction signature which I thought was rather odd.

The law is very specific. The information given to NTL employees appears to be very flawed and some statements that have been posted by them on here have been completely contrary to the provisions of the law.

scrotnig 01-03-2005 13:23

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by h3adru5h
Whoah!

This information is incorrect. Due to the services operating on rented equipment from ntl: then the same rules apply as governed by the Consumer Credit Act. You may wish to check this out prior to posting incorrect naughties on the forum mate.... (it's my job to know this btw). :D

Like I've said, the so-called 'cooling off period' doesn't apply once the services are installed.

It is commonly mistaken for a 'trial period', when it isn't.

The said period legally only applies to installations that are sold by a salesman who calls at the customer's house. It's then 'distance selling'. These are always booked for seven days later anyway as a matter of process.

If a customer rings up, requests the service, then changes their mind the day after install...it's bad luck I'm afraid.

Like I've said earlier, get a company to install some windows then tell them you've changed your mind the day after they have fitted them. Not going to happen.

And please don't tell me I'm posting 'naughties'. Dealing with these sort of requests used to be my job, and the whys and wherefores of the contract were part of our in-depth training for that job.

There is, as I have stated, a different situation if the service does not work properly once installed. The customer is then entitled to reject the service under the sale of goods act. Although the company will always offer to get it fixed, which in many cases the customer is happy with, the customer is under no obligation to accept this.

Neil 01-03-2005 13:46

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scrotnig
If a customer rings up, requests the service, then changes their mind the day after install...it's bad luck I'm afraid.

Sorry m8, but I don't agree. :angel:

According to The BBC Watchdog site, the following applies....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watchdog
CONSUMER PROTECTION (DISTANCE SELLING)
These regulations apply to most contracts made at a distance. They require consumers to be given a certain amount of information before they commit themselves to the deal. They also provide a short cancellation period.

The actual length of the cancellation period, however, depends on whether or not the required information has been given. If not it is three months and seven working days.

Taken from here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/guides...w/index4.shtml

[Edit]-More info here....

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Government!
†¢ The consumer has a cooling off period in which they can withdraw from the contract for any reason. The cooling off period begins as soon as the order has been made and ends, in the case of services, seven working days after the day the order was made, or in the case of goods, seven working days after the day of receipt of the goods; and

†¢ Where the consumer notifies the supplier in writing that they wish to cancel the contract, they must be refunded with all monies paid within thirty days.

Taken from here: http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/fa...stancesell.htm

ian@huth 01-03-2005 13:56

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scrotnig
Like I've said, the so-called 'cooling off period' doesn't apply once the services are installed.

It is commonly mistaken for a 'trial period', when it isn't.

The said period legally only applies to installations that are sold by a salesman who calls at the customer's house. It's then 'distance selling'. These are always booked for seven days later anyway as a matter of process.

If a customer rings up, requests the service, then changes their mind the day after install...it's bad luck I'm afraid.

Like I've said earlier, get a company to install some windows then tell them you've changed your mind the day after they have fitted them. Not going to happen.

And please don't tell me I'm posting 'naughties'. Dealing with these sort of requests used to be my job, and the whys and wherefores of the contract were part of our in-depth training for that job.

There is, as I have stated, a different situation if the service does not work properly once installed. The customer is then entitled to reject the service under the sale of goods act. Although the company will always offer to get it fixed, which in many cases the customer is happy with, the customer is under no obligation to accept this.

The cooling off period is FIVE days from the day the customer receives either a second copy of the agreement or a separate copy of cancellation rights. This is applicable to all contracts signed face to face with a NTL representative and is not signed on NTL premises. It does not need to be in the customers home. When the contract is signed in the presence of a NTL representative it would be normal practice for the second copy to be given to the customer at that time.

Having discussed the cooling off period at the start of the contract there still remains the more important question of whether a valid contract exists under the terms of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If the contract is not in writing in the prescribed form and signed by both parties and the customer supplied with a copy then NTL are in breach of the Act and the contract would possibly not be enforcable in law.

Derek 01-03-2005 14:26

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Now I might be being thick :dunce: (it has happened before. Once) but does that not back up what Scrotnig and I are saying.

The services (which I'm sure the phoneline, TV and internet would be classed as) have a cooling off period of 7 days from the date of agreement. As the installation is never done before 7 days once it is installed the customer has had their cooling off period.

I recently had Sky installed and didn't have to send any signed contracts back. I'd imagine they are using something similar to Ntl contract wise. :confused:

cr80123 01-03-2005 14:49

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Yes but don't you own the satellite dish and stb with Sky? If so, it isn't a hire agreement.

ian@huth 01-03-2005 15:14

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dezzo
Now I might be being thick :dunce: (it has happened before. Once) but does that not back up what Scrotnig and I are saying.

The services (which I'm sure the phoneline, TV and internet would be classed as) have a cooling off period of 7 days from the date of agreement. As the installation is never done before 7 days once it is installed the customer has had their cooling off period.

I recently had Sky installed and didn't have to send any signed contracts back. I'd imagine they are using something similar to Ntl contract wise. :confused:

The contract you sign with NTL is a financial services contract under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 do not apply to agreements made under this act which has its own cooling off period of FIVE days.

If the NTL agreement is a cancellable agreement under the act then it can be cancelled even after installation if that installation is within the five days cooling off period.

Sky contracts are not made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and so different conditions apply. My Sky contract was accompanied by a letter stating that you had to sign and return a copy of the contract. I found the letter but the actual contract is somewhere in the loft but I'm not going up there. :)

h3adru5h 01-03-2005 19:30

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scrotnig
Like I've said, the so-called 'cooling off period' doesn't apply once the services are installed.
.

not trying to be funny about this scrotnig.... but it's my job to know about these things. A cooling off period IS applicable regardless of whether the services have been installed or not. Where are you getting your information from??

Derek 01-03-2005 19:37

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by h3adru5h
not trying to be funny about this scrotnig.... but it's my job to know about these things. A cooling off period IS applicable regardless of whether the services have been installed or not. Where are you getting your information from??

I got exactly the same information from the Ntl legal team in Hook when I questioned it. It was in relation to a major complaint I was dealing with and every bit of info I could lay my hands on backed up what Scrotnig is saying.

As far as Ntl are concerned once the service is installed, which will be seven days or more since the agreement was made, it will not be removed except under the most extreme circumstances.
Any time this has been questioned by a customer to me when they go off to check it with a lawyer they have never come back to dispute it further as far as I know.

h3adru5h 01-03-2005 19:45

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
In some cases you may sign up and get installed while within the cooling off period. Although this cooling off period is mainly for the agreement, if services have been installed during the cooling off period then nothing has changed.

However, if you are outside of the cooling-off period then ntl: are not obligated to cancel your services and you have accepted the 12 months minimum term agreement with ntl:

This is a bit of a dark area that does cause a lot of confusion for customers (with whatever company you sign up to). The best advice would be to seek consumer advice from the OFT or citizens advice if you are unsure of any legalities regarding the contract, terms & conditions etc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dezzo
As far as Ntl are concerned once the service is installed, which will be seven days or more since the agreement was made, it will not be removed except under the most extreme circumstances.
Any time this has been questioned by a customer to me when they go off to check it with a lawyer they have never come back to dispute it further as far as I know.

This is probably cos I get it :disturbd:

scrotnig 01-03-2005 20:38

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Ok since everyone here is going to claim ntl are ripping people off and have illegal contracts, why don't you all take this up with BT as well:

Quote:

Your right to cancel: You have a right to cancel your order for any of the services without charge. However you will lose that right once we have begun to provide the service with your agreement.
So, is BT also issuing contracts that don't meet with the approval of the barrack room lawyers? Or is everyone just plain wrong?

The law does NOT compel companies to spen hundreds (and in BT's case, potentially thousands) of pounds providing a service so that the customer can change their mind on a whim the next day. Consumer laws are NOT in existence solely to protect customers from dishonest companies...they also protect companies from dishonest customers.

BT, Sky, ntl, Telewest, and loads of other firms all have contracts like this, and damn right they should.

There are far more instances of customers ripping companies off than vice versa. A shame Watchdog never features any of them. :rolleyes:

ian@huth 01-03-2005 20:59

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
If installation is always at least 7 days after the customer has received the second copy of the Agreement or a cancellation rights notice then it cannot be cancelled under cooling off laws because the time will already have expired.

The initial cooling off period is not the issue in this thread though.

The issue is whether NTL has complied with the law regarding content of the Agreement, signatures to the Agreement and provision of customer copies of the Agreement.
__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrotnig
Ok since everyone here is going to claim ntl are ripping people off and have illegal contracts, why don't you all take this up with BT as well:


So, is BT also issuing contracts that don't meet with the approval of the barrack room lawyers? Or is everyone just plain wrong?

The law does NOT compel companies to spen hundreds (and in BT's case, potentially thousands) of pounds providing a service so that the customer can change their mind on a whim the next day. Consumer laws are NOT in existence solely to protect customers from dishonest companies...they also protect companies from dishonest customers.

BT, Sky, ntl, Telewest, and loads of other firms all have contracts like this, and damn right they should.

There are far more instances of customers ripping companies off than vice versa. A shame Watchdog never features any of them. :rolleyes:

I for one am not saying that NTL rip anyone off with unfair contracts.

What I am saying is that the NTL contract is fair and legally binding AS LONG AS THE CORRECT PROCEDURES STIPULATED IN THE RELEVENT ACTS OF PARLIAMENT ARE FOLLOWED. NTL do not always follow the correct proceedures.

If anyone is in any doubt what those proceedures are then please read post #139 in this thread and the documents linked in that post.

scrotnig 01-03-2005 21:02

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ian@huth
If

I for one am not saying that NTL rip anyone off with unfair contracts.

What I am saying is that the NTL contract is fair and legally binding AS LONG AS THE CORRECT PROCEDURES STIPULATED IN THE RELEVENT ACTS OF PARLIAMENT ARE FOLLOWED. NTL do not always follow the correct proceedures.

If anyone is in any doubt what those proceedures are then please read post #139 in this thread and the documents linked in that post.

I am sure you are right, this is true of most companies though.

The reality is, the whole 'contract' scenario is based on the majority of people playing along with the spirit of it. Not many companies would let a situation such as this go to court. Even if they win, the adverse publicity means it isn't worth it.

Incidentally, my earlier post about the BT contract wasn't aimed at your good self. I note with interest how certain others seem to have shut completely up since I posted it. :D

ian@huth 01-03-2005 22:08

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scrotnig
I am sure you are right, this is true of most companies though.

The reality is, the whole 'contract' scenario is based on the majority of people playing along with the spirit of it. Not many companies would let a situation such as this go to court. Even if they win, the adverse publicity means it isn't worth it.

Incidentally, my earlier post about the BT contract wasn't aimed at your good self. I note with interest how certain others seem to have shut completely up since I posted it. :D

The only court action that might occur is if NTL decided to enforce payment of remaining months on a early cancelled contract. If the customer was billed for this and the customer decided not to pay then court action may ultimately follow.

BT have many different contracts, which one was you referring to?

cr80123 01-03-2005 23:05

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Well I don't think there's any longer any doubt about it to be honest.

scrotnig 01-03-2005 23:17

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ian@huth
The only court action that might occur is if NTL decided to enforce payment of remaining months on a early cancelled contract. If the customer was billed for this and the customer decided not to pay then court action may ultimately follow.

I know from previous roles that this almost never happens...any outstanding debt is passed to the internal debt recovery department. If they can't recover it, they pass it to an outside agency. I am not aware of any cases ever going to court, though I couldn't say categorically that none have whatsoever.

Quote:

BT have many different contracts, which one was you referring to?
Not sure, it's from the back of one of their advertising booklets.


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